[JoeNapalm]

*Neil the Ork Barbarian ringtone*

"King County Morgue. You kill 'em, we chill 'em.

Who? Oh. Yeah, yeah I remember you.

Whoa whoa whoa...pump your brakes, guy. I ain't your chummer, I ain't your partner, and I ain't your friend. I am your nearly total stranger who sometimes does a little biz in the 'things you need but don't have' arena. So stop wasting my time with the chit chat. Tick tick, time is money. Whaddaya want?

I'm sorry, you said what? Uh huh. Uh huh.

Oh, so we are making jokes, now? Allow me to retort.

*click*

*Neil the Ork Barbarian ringtone*

"If this is you, again, the next words I hear had best be a heartfelt apology...

You're frakking serious?

Are you a cop? Yeah, that's just what a cop would say. Listen, chummer, maybe I can get it, maybe I can't.

Yeah, now you're my chummer - cause if I find this for you, you're putting my whelps through college, bright boy.

Here's how this is gonna go down:

One. If..If...I can find this thing for you, I get a finders fee. And I don't do credit, favors, or fat chicks, so you better have the yen to cover it.

Two. I ain't finding this by tomorrow. I gotta go after this on the lo-low, and seeing as it is seriously toxic illegal style goods, chances are it ain't gonna be local.

Three. Travel and docs ain't covered in the finders fee. No free rides, buddy. So ka? Also, you're going to need serious weight for the goods, the install, the docs...we're talking shadow clinics in Chiba, choomba.

You taking notes? Good.

If you don't mind my asking, where DID you get this kind of walking around money, anyway? You make any terrifying frakking enemies I should know about? I don't want to wake up dead before I can spend my cut, is all, slick...."



-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[CanRay]

"Easier than I thought."  Kane says as he hangs up on the call.

[Xzylvador]

I simply cannot, in any way, imagine Kane ever sounding like a cop.

[Devil]

Lol Xzy that is what my merc used it for (muscle toner 4). Great point. Never say never. Be inventive Joker. Everything is worth it depending on maximization or flavor.

I lean away from minmaxing to the degree that it supersedes character concept. Qualities, to me, should be picked based on the character and not how far you can break the game. Restricted gear has it's place, but I feel that it is most commonly abused by shortsighted munchkins, who don't play roleplaying games to roleplay.

[Xzylvador]

Ugh, not the Stormwind Falacy again.

(Most of) my characters are professionals with at least some experience and knowledge of what their possiblities are to improve themselves in their fields.
They'll try to "be all they can be" and be the best in their specialities, using anything they can get their hands on if it gives 'em an edge, as long as they don't have to sacrifice too much for it.
I'd find it pretty immersion-breaking to believe they -wouldn't- try to get their hands on something as good as Muscle Toner unless there's a very good reason for it.

[JoeNapalm]

Lol Xzy that is what my merc used it for (muscle toner 4). Great point. Never say never. Be inventive Joker. Everything is worth it depending on maximization or flavor.

I lean away from minmaxing to the degree that it supersedes character concept. Qualities, to me, should be picked based on the character and not how far you can break the game. Restricted gear has it's place, but I feel that it is most commonly abused by shortsighted munchkins, who don't play roleplaying games to roleplay.

Wow. Shortsighted Munchkins, eh?

May I direct your attention to your own comment:

Restricted gear is never worth it, and is way overused. You only need it if your character absolutely needs to begin his career with said item. You can always try to get that item at any point outside of character creation. That's what contacts are for.

Your entire premise is that it is inefficient! Then we demonstrate cases where it is, we are shortsighted Munchkins who don't roleplay?

For the love of irony, man, I even role played out a conversation demonstrating our point.

Is misplaced condescension your go-to response when people don't agree with your sweeping generalities, then?


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Xzylvador]

Wow, Joe.
Take a deep breath and relax, man.
I don't think the 'shortshighted munchkin' quip was targetted at anyone specifically.
There do exist Rollplayers that aren't interested in Roleplaying at all, and I'll agree they aren't fun at all and they can sometimes be disruptive enough to really break games.

But Joker should really understand that character optimization and good roleplaying are NOT mutually exclusive.
Again, please google the Stormwind Falacy.
And, well, just being a bit careful what you post might be a good idea too.

[Prodigy]

Calm down, Joe. I agree with both you and Joker. Minmaxing at character creation can supersede flavor. The point I was making is essentially what Xzy made, which is that Restricted Gear is useful for a variety of reasons.

It is the same reason Parapeligic exists as a negative quality. Minmax-wise, worst possible quality. Flavor-wise, could be interesting.

My character with Muscle Toner 4 is a mercenary (as mentioned previously). Was my use of restricted gear totally for flavor? No. Did I minmax the character? Also no. I optimized his Agility, but other than that he is a Face/Medic/Infiltrator.

That being said, he can shoot the $h^* out of stuff too.

[Devil]

Wow. Shortsighted Munchkins, eh?

May I direct your attention to your own comment:

Restricted gear is never worth it, and is way overused. You only need it if your character absolutely needs to begin his career with said item. You can always try to get that item at any point outside of character creation. That's what contacts are for.

Your entire premise is that it is inefficient! Then we demonstrate cases where it is, we are shortsighted Munchkins who don't roleplay?

For the love of irony, man, I even role played out a conversation demonstrating our point.

Is misplaced condescension your go-to response when people don't agree with your sweeping generalities, then?

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Wasn't implying that about you, so maybe take your nerdrage down a notch. It's just someone who might have a different opinion than you, not the end of the word.

I'm not saying that I disagree with the playing style of anyone who minmaxes. I do it. It's common sense to make a good character. I just don't enjoy gaming with people who do put it before any kind of real character concept. I don't like the thought of anyone's character concept consisting of "I could have really high dice pool if I could do this". I'm not saying that anyone who optimizes is like that, but I know that powergamers exist that just play the game to roll dice to kill stuff and blow things up. I know because I have played with them.

This is all just my personal opinion, but in order to understand what I am trying to say we would have to get more specific than such generalizations. It's partially about the nature of a quality like Restricted Gear. It can make really cool stuff possible, but I believe it can be abused just to get the biggest guns and the best armor for your troll, even though his lifestyle is low and his concept is sprawl ganger bruiser with no explanation for having gear like that at the beginning. Like so many things in this game, it is completely up to the GM to regulate. Some groups who put roleplay first will have a GM who does indeed closely regulate the use of the Quality, like it recommends in its description, other groups might actually prefer just to powergame, steal, and blow things up. Their GM might just allow it to be used without question. I tend strongly towards the former, because I believe there is a balance to be maintained and that roleplaying games shouldn't be played as if they were miniatures games and little else.

I mispoke when I said "most commonly" and made some other incorrect generalizations. I don't think that those people are the majority, but I do believe that is that way that many people play the game. It's a game with an incredible capacity for customization, which inevitably begs the question of what heights one can reach within the confines. I believe though, that the purpose for such customization is to allow you to build any character that can be imagined by someone who knows the setting well. My character's start with concept, then optimization, not the other way around.

I also wasn't merely saying it is inefficient... You are limited to 35BP in positive qualities... That's the most you can ever have. it's my personal opinion that qualities give depth to your character and that Restricted Gear isn't usually awesome for that. Sometimes it is great for it though. You can buy it off later, but you often don't start play with a defining quality that you otherwise would have. I also feel like games don't always put enough emphasis on contacts, considering how expensive they are in the system and how essential they would be for many characters in the Shadowrun universe. The normal availability limit is 12, so it only makes sense that contacts should be your usual go to for 20 availability items that you don't absolutely need at chargen.

In conclusion, I think that Restricted gear is easily mistaken for the "cheap badass gear" Quality, and is rarely regulated as recommended. That is my most common experience with it, which can be bothersome to me, because I believe that the balance between roleplaying and optimizing is more easily neglected in a game with fewer confines to a regulating system than it is in the confines of a game like D&D. In a game more like shadowrun, such balance of the two is often a conscious decision.

Found this in a comment after reading the Stormwind Fallacy:
"If your rolls are not enhancing your roles, and vice versa, you're doing it wrong."

[JoeNapalm]

Actually, I interpreted that comment as aimed at Xzy. If that wasn't the case, then remove some of the italics, or something.

I'm sure you meant "shortsighted munchkins who don't roleplay" in the nicest possible way.   

(That's a joke, btw)

Qualities aren't set in stone after CharGen. They are hard to get or improve, but it can be done.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[gfrobbin84]

Screw all this work to sneak a gun just be an adept with the ability to throw anything and walk on board with a deck of cards aka 52 rounds if pure death.

[Hellion]

Screw all this work to sneak a gun just be an adept with the ability to throw anything and walk on board with a deck of cards aka 52 rounds if pure death.

Love that idea but I'm not sure that they could do enough damage.... Plus bullseye only exists in the marvel comics :p

[Mithlas]

Well, there's also Gambit, but I'd go with a social adept. Slip some toxin in a drink, sweet talk the attendant to give it to the target without remembering me, and then walk off the flight with the mission done and nobody the wiser.

[CanRay]

Go with a Pornomancer instead, and make the target kill him/herself at the end of the flight.

[DamienHollow]

I'm amazed this is still alive. For the record, the situation isn't an assassination, it's an attempted assassination by another party against a third that threatens to take the craft with them.