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How to educate my players?

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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #15 on: <01-13-13/2105:45> »
A TPK is counter-productive, but I am a big advocate of letting the dice kill someone who does something stupid early on in a campaign.

People pretty much all act the same in an environment without consequences.

If, in the first adventure, you either allow a PC to die as a direct result of their stupidity - or make them really like an NPC, then kill them - it makes a point. A PC makes it much louder, though.

Mind you, it has to be perceived as a direct result of poor planning/judgement/play, or it comes across as YOU, the GM, killing a PC for doing something you don't like. That is poor GMing. Letting the dice fall where they may, though...that is what they need to see.

Do it early. Makes it easier than if you are inconsistent, and they haven't invested as much into the dead guy.

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Redmercury

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« Reply #16 on: <01-13-13/2137:47> »
My players have a bit of the same problem. (Not quite at that level.) What works for me is to inform them of something glaringly obvious that would affect their decisions if they realized it every once in a while. (in your example this would be their low light vision) Of course this is only if one of their characters would realize it. If they all have the logic of a toothpick I won't be informing them of anything logically nonsensical or noteworthy. If they complain later I just remind them of their character's capacities, but it's usually not a problem.

 I might  drop the "are you sure about that?" question when they're acting like dumb-asses as well. Usually they think about it more rationally for a second, and come to a more sensible conclusion on their own, otherwise whatever happens to them happens. It's bad with them every time we start a new game setting. (or even just a new game.) They're all exited about their abilities and feel a little too deific. (I think their first experience was with Exalted.) Using the above methods they will always start acting more rationally session by session, and get more in character too.

Reiper

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« Reply #17 on: <01-30-13/0321:57> »
I had this issue with one team I had years ago, but they learned quickly.

I'm not generally out to get them, and at least in the very early days I may even muff a roll but after they have a couple of games under their belt, I let them live with their decisions, and they generally adapt fairly quickly. But overall it seems to have a lot to do with the maturity of the players. Generally, the less mature they are, the more they like to do dumb things (and age =/= maturity).
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Tagz

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« Reply #18 on: <01-30-13/2022:50> »
I think before there is any idea about planning a TPK for your group there first needs to be a consensus on what kind of game everyone wants to play.  Not just setting style (pink-mohawk vs mirror-shades vs black trench coat), but playstyle and what each person wants to take out of it.  Maybe this was discussed at the start of the game, but it's always possible there's a misunderstanding or opinions have changed.  Anyhow, a TPK won't do a thing to change the person who wants to just hack and slash, it just lets them roll a new version that might do it better out the gates due to more character building experience.

If that's already taken care of and everyone is on board with a world with consequences and you as a GM want to have them, then by all means give it to them.  Personally, I don't like GMing a game without serious and realistic consequences, it feels like it's cheapening the player's experiences by not challenging them and letting their decisions have lasting impact.

I_V_Saur

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« Reply #19 on: <01-30-13/2226:03> »
Every time I run a game, I get at least one person who thinks they can just steamroll everything. And, since I always put a threat that's just a bit too much right around the corner, they inevitably complain at me. I usually respond by putting them in the enemy's shoes.

"You are a god-eating beast. You've been locked away for a long, long time. You're hungry, bored, and it's dark. Suddenly, it's dark, there is food nearby, and it is shouting. It wears bright furs, and is moving closer to you."

"But I was trying to research it..."

"You are a god-eating beast. You don't do research. You eat gods. And anything else that moves."

It's a bit of back and forth, to help them see that rationally, the other side HAD to make the decision that nearly, or actually did, kill their character. Sometimes you need to come up with a story for that character beforehand, sometimes on spot, but I've used this a few times.

Frankly, I'd love a party halfway creative enough to use the headlights of their car for more than seeing the road, and a lighter for more than cigarettes. I think I have one now, after about half a decade, but we'll see.

RHat

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« Reply #20 on: <01-30-13/2251:15> »
Every time I run a game, I get at least one person who thinks they can just steamroll everything. And, since I always put a threat that's just a bit too much right around the corner, they inevitably complain at me. I usually respond by putting them in the enemy's shoes.

"You are a god-eating beast. You've been locked away for a long, long time. You're hungry, bored, and it's dark. Suddenly, it's dark, there is food nearby, and it is shouting. It wears bright furs, and is moving closer to you."

"But I was trying to research it..."

"You are a god-eating beast. You don't do research. You eat gods. And anything else that moves."

It's a bit of back and forth, to help them see that rationally, the other side HAD to make the decision that nearly, or actually did, kill their character. Sometimes you need to come up with a story for that character beforehand, sometimes on spot, but I've used this a few times.

Frankly, I'd love a party halfway creative enough to use the headlights of their car for more than seeing the road, and a lighter for more than cigarettes. I think I have one now, after about half a decade, but we'll see.

May I suggest taking away their weapons and making them fight with duct tape?
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Reiper

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« Reply #21 on: <01-30-13/2324:30> »

It's a bit of back and forth, to help them see that rationally, the other side HAD to make the decision that nearly, or actually did, kill their character. Sometimes you need to come up with a story for that character beforehand, sometimes on spot, but I've used this a few times.

Frankly, I'd love a party halfway creative enough to use the headlights of their car for more than seeing the road, and a lighter for more than cigarettes. I think I have one now, after about half a decade, but we'll see.

My old DnD group was like that, really kept me on my toes with having to come up with the rules.

Examples:
Hole with a big nasty bad guy inside it that was about to come out, Rogue and mage go first, rogue tosses a bottle of booze from his backpack over the hole, and the mage calls down a fire ball into the bottle creating a moltov cocktail.
I had to up the target numbers to hit (rogue had it easy, and the mage critted) so the mob came out of the hole taking burning damage for every round for 3 rounds. It was a fairly fun fight though.

Elf priest cons/seduces her way to an assassination target, gets him alone in an alley and coup'de'graces him.

Recovery job (ShadowRun) to recover some stolen merchandise from a low level gang hangout, they go in completely unarmed other than bringing in drugs, face con's his way through the house and they end up gambling in the basement where they win the Johnson's pet hellhounds back. No shots fired.

I must admit, I do like it when my teams do that, it makes GMing a lot more fun. Although its not without a risk and relies heavily on the players being smart and having a backup plan for when it hits the fan (which does a bit)
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BallPtPenTheif

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« Reply #22 on: <02-01-13/1949:43> »
Is it possible that your intended game design and/or path is too transparent and/or narrow and that they are revolting against it as a criticism of your GMing?

I've definitely played in games where that happened.
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Ragmon

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« Reply #23 on: <02-06-13/1047:50> »
I don't have advice just some observations...and a short story. :)

So we a started a an SR sessions, only 2 players, me and another guy (lets call him PC2).
During 10 session, we (and when I say "we" I mean PC2)  managed to piss-off  the Yakuza, Saeder-Krupp, the local Law enforcement guys and Aztechnology. All this without leaving Seattle, and he was actively hunted and eventually someone called in 2  high caliber bounty hunters to take PC2 down, after he killed a few other lower bounty hunters. So he got brutally murdered. He even pissed of the orc underground a bit...and PC2 was an orc himself.
Now the interesting thing is, he never even read a word from any of the SR4 books to this day (or any other SR book). Till session 8 he didint even know we were in 2072.
So after his character died cause of him being sloppy he got killed, as mentioned before. The only thing he learned was: "Higher number on Body, agility and reaction gooood".
My take away from this is that some people learn from death, and some don't. Some people listen to his friends when they tell you, "read the god damn books already", some players characters die even after repeated warnings that "shooting at the Lone-Star squad car", "killing a Mr. Johnson", "sleeping in a secret lab where you just killed everyone that belongs to one of the mega corporations, 2 days in a row", is a bad and stupid idea.

I would say, slowly increase the difficulty.
- Occasional check if they have there licenses and SINs for certain things, as in when they would enter an area where there would be a check, remind them as a GM. "There is a check point up ahead, do you guys have all your licenses, or you want to risk it?"
- The occasional news feeds that talk of unknown perpetrator, and that the investigators might have a lead on them.
- Obvious shadowing NPCs. As a GM I did this once... The 2 guys were steaking out a mobster in front of a high end hotel in the middle of the downtown's rich district...they were sitting in a white van. So I thought I would send out a guy (another mobster), to take a look at these guys. He knocks on the window of the van they roll down the tinted windows, the NPC ask for a light, PC1 reacts and drives away fast. While looking in the rear view mirror the NPC lights the cigar. I couldent have given them more hints that they were being watched...but PC2 didnt noticed and PC1 had to explain it to him. :)
- A bit more detail from the GM side never hurt, if you feel that they just don't get it sometimes, maybe a drawing of the situation.
- Make them watch, Johnny Mnemonic, Bladerunner, Ghost in the Shell, Akira. So they have some image in there heads.
- If there still being stupid, then well if you cant educate them, well try to have fun your self by inventing insane situations.
 * no really, car chases on the high way that only leads to the border.
 * sewer level with tons of mutants.
 * Chicago
 * cranial bombs, watch them go for the books for a solution, on how to get it out... always good if you want you players to read a bit.
 * cranial bombs, if you want you players to do what you tell them... bit extreme but hopefully they will notice there in less trouble when the guy who placed the bombs in there heads tells them to "not do this or that".
 * and lastly its not always about plot and story, sometimes its all about the fun and improvisation on your and the players side.

Sorry for the long and babbling post...I hope it helps.