[RHat]

Didn't wide and narrow bursts already simulate accuracy? Wasn't that the point?

Nope.  The simulate the effect of a lot of flying lead.  The effects of accuracy are there - and are perhaps more prevalent - when firing in smaller bursts or a single round.

[Aryeonos]

well, strictly speaking, higher volume of fire in a shorter time span does increase the likelihood of hits being scored, but I understand that we're talking specific bullet accuracy. Well, most weapons today are under 5 MOA, and I would think that in 2070 they're using mostly highly aerodynamic ammunition that is accurate to one minute of angle. So, I don't really see room for there to be an accuracy stat, since recoil already makes up for degrading accuracy and taking aim improves it. In games where combat is more summarized (IE Bad) some weapons have an accurate trait, or are meant to illustrate their single shot power (Dark Heresy). I'd be interested to see how exactly they plan on implementing it, so long as they stay away from the stupid trend of reducing automatic weapon damage simply because it has a high rate of fire, common on most video game RPGs.

[Black]

I could also get behind a total redesign of the skills based on how it is being used.  Rather than Pistols, Automatics and Longarms, Why not Single Round (SS and SA), Automatic Fire (BF and FA), Sniping (aimed shots), etc.?  It seems like firing a modded heavy pistol on full auto has less in common with taking pot shots with a holdout revolver, and more in common with opening up with even something as large as a light machine gun, in terms of the skills involved in doing it effectively and sccurately.

It just crossed my mind, so don't feel bad about tearing the idea apart if you don't like it.

I would prefer this.  The number of firearm skills is very high and too specialised.

[RHat]

I could also get behind a total redesign of the skills based on how it is being used.  Rather than Pistols, Automatics and Longarms, Why not Single Round (SS and SA), Automatic Fire (BF and FA), Sniping (aimed shots), etc.?  It seems like firing a modded heavy pistol on full auto has less in common with taking pot shots with a holdout revolver, and more in common with opening up with even something as large as a light machine gun, in terms of the skills involved in doing it effectively and sccurately.

It just crossed my mind, so don't feel bad about tearing the idea apart if you don't like it.

I would prefer this.  The number of firearm skills is very high and too specialised.

...  So, because of that you would prefer a system with as many if not more skills, which are then more specialized?

[Aryeonos]

They're more generalized than the current skills we have and pertain to the scenario you use them in, instead of what you use them with. Like gymnastics or climbing or running, they're all moving skills, but in different ways.

[All4BigGuns]

Really, the Athletics skill group could stand to just become the Athletics skill again, but one of the things I did like about SR3 (other than the fact that 6s exploded ALWAYS) was that the skills to use firearms were by class (Pistols, Assault Rifles, Submachine Guns, Heavy Weapons, Rifles, Shotguns, etc.)

[Aryeonos]

which is how they are now, but certain weapons cross those lines, because firearms aren't that cut and dry. I'd be more interested in skills that work on how you use them than on what you use with them, there'd still probably be the same amount of skills, maybe an extra 1 or 2, but probably less.

You could then make a character with either the firearms skill group, which covers all the forms of firing, - certain things like artillery or shoulder mounted, or specialize in a certain form of fighting. Maximize the skills that deal with CQB or Sharpshooting, and then the skills in them could be specialized for a certain type of weapon. Which would mean, you could have multiple specialization's for the pistol or the assault rifle based on how you use it.

This idea is starting to sound better and better.

[All4BigGuns]

which is how they are now, but certain weapons cross those lines, because firearms aren't that cut and dry. I'd be more interested in skills that work on how you use them than on what you use with them, there'd still probably be the same amount of skills, maybe an extra 1 or 2, but probably less.

You could then make a character with either the firearms skill group, which covers all the forms of firing, - certain things like artillery or shoulder mounted, or specialize in a certain form of fighting. Maximize the skills that deal with CQB or Sharpshooting, and then the skills in them could be specialized for a certain type of weapon. Which would mean, you could have multiple specialization's for the pistol or the assault rifle based on how you use it.

This idea is starting to sound better and better.

No they're not like that now.

SR3 Weapon Skills

Throwing Weapons
Projectile Weapons
Heavy Weapons
Pistols
Submachine Guns
Rifles
Assault Rifles
Shotguns
Gunnery
Launch Weapons
Laser Weapons
Edged Weapons
Pole Arms/Staffs
Clubs
Cyber-Implant Combat
Unarmed Combat
Underwater Combat
Whips

SR4A Weapon Skills

Pistols
Automatics
Longarms
Heavy Weapons
Blades
Clubs
Unarmed Combat
Archery
Throwing Weapons
Gunnery
Exotic Melee Weapon
Exotic Ranged Weapon

[Aryeonos]

I didn't say they were like that now, I said I liked the idea of them working that way, though looking at the SR3 charts I find them more agreeable than the SR4 ones, but still.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Having played them all, I will admit to being very satisfied with the balance of skills in SR4.  SR3 exploded a single skill (Firearms!) into a zillion of them; this was less than pleasant to have to deal with.  Having them trimmed back into three primary weapon classes, with an overarching skill group and side-bar skills (i.e. the Exotic weapons) has proven to be quite pleasant.

And, to be honest, any way you dice them up is going to have issues.

[Aryeonos]

Okay, I'll make yet another diagram of how I think it could work. Keep in mind these are all working skill titles.

• Precision firing, covers firing in semi auto or single shot, can use a small amount of aim actions.
• Sharp shooting, covers the same but when you take a full round action to aim or more, (Maybe this skill will let you get a +1 bonus for aiming up to its skill rating, since they're doing 12 as the skill cap in 5th ed. or maybe only half, It'd need playtesting)
• Tactical Firing, covers your Burst firing in narrow bursts, probably can use as many aim actions as precision firing.
• Suppressive fire, covers suppressive fire and wide bursts, aiming works the same as precision firing
• Gunnery, works with your computer guided munitions, smart firing platforms, and other wholly electronically and motor aimed weapons. (CIWS guns, missile launchers, rocket pods, gravity bombs, and remote turrets, but not manually operated guns.)
  Indirect fire, rockets artillery, mortars, and howitzers.
• Launchers, direct fire weapons with no computer guidance, I'd probably just say these should be exotic weapons like the flamer.

[RHat]

Okay, I'll make yet another diagram of how I think it could work. Keep in mind these are all working skill titles.

• Precision firing, covers firing in semi auto or single shot, can use a small amount of aim actions.
• Sharp shooting, covers the same but when you take a full round action to aim or more, (Maybe this skill will let you get a +1 bonus for aiming up to its skill rating, since they're doing 12 as the skill cap in 5th ed. or maybe only half, It'd need playtesting)
• Tactical Firing, covers your Burst firing in narrow bursts, probably can use as many aim actions as precision firing.
• Suppressive fire, covers suppressive fire and wide bursts, aiming works the same as precision firing
• Gunnery, works with your computer guided munitions, smart firing platforms, and other wholly electronically and motor aimed weapons. (CIWS guns, missile launchers, rocket pods, gravity bombs, and remote turrets, but not manually operated guns.)
  Indirect fire, rockets artillery, mortars, and howitzers.
• Launchers, direct fire weapons with no computer guidance, I'd probably just say these should be exotic weapons like the flamer.

See, my issues with this at the least are at the conceptual level.  Differences for forms of use should be in terms of the weapons themselves, but the skill to use the weapon should in and of itself remain constant.  Accuracy will probably do a great deal to assist in all this.

[Aryeonos]

Well, I had an idea of using those skills + weapon skills relating to the type of firearm, but then I thought the dice pools might get to big or it might be overcomplicated, but maybe if it was so that you could only get up to a 6 in each one, and then gear bonuses, it might work out.

[All4BigGuns]

Okay, I'll make yet another diagram of how I think it could work. Keep in mind these are all working skill titles.

• Precision firing, covers firing in semi auto or single shot, can use a small amount of aim actions.
• Sharp shooting, covers the same but when you take a full round action to aim or more, (Maybe this skill will let you get a +1 bonus for aiming up to its skill rating, since they're doing 12 as the skill cap in 5th ed. or maybe only half, It'd need playtesting)
• Tactical Firing, covers your Burst firing in narrow bursts, probably can use as many aim actions as precision firing.
• Suppressive fire, covers suppressive fire and wide bursts, aiming works the same as precision firing
• Gunnery, works with your computer guided munitions, smart firing platforms, and other wholly electronically and motor aimed weapons. (CIWS guns, missile launchers, rocket pods, gravity bombs, and remote turrets, but not manually operated guns.)
  Indirect fire, rockets artillery, mortars, and howitzers.
• Launchers, direct fire weapons with no computer guidance, I'd probably just say these should be exotic weapons like the flamer.

No. Just no. Just a bad idea. No more needs saying.

[Mirikon]

Okay, I'll make yet another diagram of how I think it could work. Keep in mind these are all working skill titles.

• Precision firing, covers firing in semi auto or single shot, can use a small amount of aim actions.
• Sharp shooting, covers the same but when you take a full round action to aim or more, (Maybe this skill will let you get a +1 bonus for aiming up to its skill rating, since they're doing 12 as the skill cap in 5th ed. or maybe only half, It'd need playtesting)
• Tactical Firing, covers your Burst firing in narrow bursts, probably can use as many aim actions as precision firing.
• Suppressive fire, covers suppressive fire and wide bursts, aiming works the same as precision firing
• Gunnery, works with your computer guided munitions, smart firing platforms, and other wholly electronically and motor aimed weapons. (CIWS guns, missile launchers, rocket pods, gravity bombs, and remote turrets, but not manually operated guns.)
  Indirect fire, rockets artillery, mortars, and howitzers.
• Launchers, direct fire weapons with no computer guidance, I'd probably just say these should be exotic weapons like the flamer.

No. Just no. Just a bad idea. No more needs saying.

I am in complete agreement with A4BG.