[Thrass]

Is the adept power Improved reflexes always on, or does it need to be activated like wired reflexes?

I had a discussion about this in my group and we couldn't quite agree on it.

[emsquared]

Pretty sure, unless you have a Geas, it's always on... that's not from any page or text, but just that I've never read that it had to be activated. And besides, even if it does have to be "activated", it'd be as simple as a thought - again, unless it's a Geas - which even that doesn't require an extra action or anything.

To be very honest, I didn't know Wired Reflexes has to be activated, anymore than any other cyberware has to be "on" (as opposed to off) anyway... would kind of defeat the purpose of the "Reflex" part...

[Thrass]

Wired reflexes needs to be turned on by a free action. "(The system includes a trigger to turn the wired reflexes on and off (taking a Free Action)."
Improve initiative spell works like any spell (complex action to cast and then sustain it)
Synaptic booster has no such thing as activation.

Improved reflexes adept power says "This power increases the speed at which you react, just like wired reflexes."

The question is if "just like wired reflexes" includes the trigger mechanism (which is imho bullshit).

[Falconer]

Under the older editions of the systems... being 'chipped' was a social and medical problem.  Doing it too much could lead to siezures and the like.    Also the guys would be 'twitchy' with shaky hands that had a hard time staying still... (hence the penalty to slowly & calmly trying to sneak past a motion sensor).   This RP side effect has largely gone away in 4th edition.


So some limited versions of the cyber were able to turn this on and off... wired and MbW being the only two examples i can think of.  This is an artifact of that.

[farothel]

So some limited versions of the cyber were able to turn this on and off... wired and MbW being the only two examples i can think of.  This is an artifact of that.

You can turn a Move by Wire off?  As I understood that system, it put you in a state of constant seizure and then using the system to control these seizures.  If you turn that off I think the result won't be pretty.

As for improved reflexes, I always assumed it was always on, like all adept powers unless specifically stated (like the attribute boosts).

[Falconer]

The move by wire when activated puts your muscles into a constant state of seizure so they can react faster.   Turning it off doesn't leave in you an uncontrolled seizure.

[Thrass]

It dosn't mention that you can turn off move by wire in my book but I always assumed you can turn it off. (maybe I just missed it and it is noticed somewhere I didn't see it.)

But that is not actually part of my question.

[emsquared]

Wired reflexes needs to be turned on by a free action. "(The system includes a trigger to turn the wired reflexes on and off (taking a Free Action)."

See but to me this just means it has an on/off switch, not that it needs to be activated every time before it's used.

[Thrass]

Wired reflexes needs to be turned on by a free action. "(The system includes a trigger to turn the wired reflexes on and off (taking a Free Action)."

See but to me this just means it has an on/off switch, not that it needs to be activated every time before it's used.

Yes this is probably argued about many times, but not part of my question... please stick to the topic until my question is answered... you can derail it afterwards however you like.

[Glyph]

The description says: "This power increases the speed at which you react, just like wired reflexes."  It does one specific thing just like wired reflexes, but the comparison does not mean they are alike in every way.  The adept version does not mention being able to turn it off, nor that you are required to activate it.  It is always "on", unless you stumble into an area with a high enough background count.

[emsquared]

Yes this is probably argued about many times, but not part of my question... please stick to the topic until my question is answered... you can derail it afterwards however you like.

LOL, okay... well if the logic chain has eluded you; my answer is Wired Reflexes does not need to be activated, therefore, even if Increased Reflexes is like Wired Reflexes in every way - except that it's Magic - Increased Reflexes does not need to be activated. Make sense? I'm not trying to derail your thread, I'm trying to elucidate the source of your confusion.

[Thrass]

Ok, sorry emsquared I just didn't get what you meant then.

What I get is that we all agree that it should not be needed to activate the power.
Which makes me wonder (even more) where this particular group get's the idea it should be activated.

[RHat]

Yes this is probably argued about many times, but not part of my question... please stick to the topic until my question is answered... you can derail it afterwards however you like.

LOL, okay... well if the logic chain has eluded you; my answer is Wired Reflexes does not need to be activated, therefore, even if Increased Reflexes is like Wired Reflexes in every way - except that it's Magic - Increased Reflexes does not need to be activated. Make sense? I'm not trying to derail your thread, I'm trying to elucidate the source of your confusion.

Except that Wired Reflexes explicitly has an on/off state and must be in the on state - which is the definition of "activated".  A character COULD keep their Wired Reflexes on at all times, but then they are walking around in constant bullet time, which may not strictly speaking be good for the mind or for one's ability to judge speeds and therefore things like the force of incoming objects - and good luck trying to hide it while it's turned on, too; Wired Reflexes 3 is a pretty restricted piece of gear, so getting caught with it at the wrong time could be bad (like at a border crossing where it causes the guards to check your information a lot more closely - the book explicitly calls out high-rating wired reflexes as being highly restricted [SR4A, page 70]).  So, yes, you can keep your Wired Reflexes constantly activated, but that doesn't change the fact that it needs to be activated - which is very relevant for things like cyberware hacking.

In any case, whatever you personally do is not relevant, as this is a discussion of RAW.  And by RAW, Wired Reflexes needs to be activated - and that activation is even explicitly called out as an example of something that might change your number of Initiative Passes in the middle of a round.  However, the Improved Reflexes text says "just like wired reflexes", rather than "just like Wired Reflexes (see page 342)".  The latter is what it would read if it were inheriting the rules text of Wired Reflexes - capitalization and citation matter.  One could make an RAI argument, I suppose, but strict raw has Improved Reflexes being constant.

[Thrass]

[...]but then they are walking around in constant bullet time, which may not strictly speaking be good for the mind or for one's ability to judge speeds and therefore things like the force of incoming objects[...]

Which would be the same for synaptic boosters which don't have an on off state and have no side effects mentioned... so there should be no side effects for wired reflexes too.

The only thing that the RAW "must be activated" means is that at right after the implantation you need to say "I activate my wired reflexes" once and then be done with it...

Ofcourse many groups play it like you need to activate it each encounter/scene or whatever, but this is just a thing that needs be made clear at the table how you play it...

There could be numerous reasons that require you to activate it each time instead of activate it once and then make it last the rest of your life,
a) it messes with your relax/sleep cycles which would require you to turn it off/on it each evening/morning or each time you'ld want to relax (smoke a cigar eat something chill in a hammock...)
b) it has safety measures or a limited supply of whatever (power maybe) that deactivate it automatically after... I dunno a minute? (20 combat turns) or a not given amount of time that is essentially end of combat/end of scene
c) it could have long term side effects if you always had wired reflexes at the on state

all of these are houserules and the fact, that there is a switch but no explanation is kinda a copy/paste thing from 3rd ed
The initiative boosters with all their quirky rules like "works with no other initiative improvement" are in a state of errata need and we can only hope, that Shadowrun 5 finally clears it up.

[RHat]

[...]but then they are walking around in constant bullet time, which may not strictly speaking be good for the mind or for one's ability to judge speeds and therefore things like the force of incoming objects[...]

Which would be the same for synaptic boosters which don't have an on off state and have no side effects mentioned... so there should be no side effects for wired reflexes too.

The only thing that the RAW "must be activated" means is that at right after the implantation you need to say "I activate my wired reflexes" once and then be done with it...

Ofcourse many groups play it like you need to activate it each encounter/scene or whatever, but this is just a thing that needs be made clear at the table how you play it...

There could be numerous reasons that require you to activate it each time instead of activate it once and then make it last the rest of your life,
a) it messes with your relax/sleep cycles which would require you to turn it off/on it each evening/morning or each time you'ld want to relax (smoke a cigar eat something chill in a hammock...)
b) it has safety measures or a limited supply of whatever (power maybe) that deactivate it automatically after... I dunno a minute? (20 combat turns) or a not given amount of time that is essentially end of combat/end of scene
c) it could have long term side effects if you always had wired reflexes at the on state

all of these are houserules and the fact, that there is a switch but no explanation is kinda a copy/paste thing from 3rd ed
The initiative boosters with all their quirky rules like "works with no other initiative improvement" are in a state of errata need and we can only hope, that Shadowrun 5 finally clears it up.

Either way, RAW seems to be that Wired Reflexes must be activated, whereas Improved does not - which I'm pretty sure answers the original question.  Leaving it on pseudo-permanently doesn't change that.  Just remember if someone's 'ware gets hacked that their Wired Reflexes can be turned off by that hacker - of course, with a system like that shutting it off is the least unkind option.