[Sipowitz]

Except trying to do both wont happen.  They are two very different production systems.

I have always been of the opinion that if you have time to play the game then you have time to paint for the game.

[All4BigGuns]

@Linkdeath - while I appreciate your comments, I'm hoping they're unpainted and, in a perfect world, multi-part plastic which would allow for a lot more customization.

With the amount that the figures for miniatures games cost, they really should all be ready-to-use right out of the box.

[Wildcard]

Except trying to do both wont happen.  They are two very different production systems.

I have always been of the opinion that if you have time to play the game then you have time to paint for the game.

If you're good at chess, then you should be required to make all the pieces with a wooden lathe?

Sounds like shit logic.

[Mirikon]

Painted, ready-to-use minis make for a more inclusive game, meaning that more people can actually buy and play it. Making the game more exclusive because of a snobbish idea that only people who have the time and skill to assemble and paint minis deserve to play the game is bad business.

Hell, the majority of the reason I never even thought about picking up things like Warhammer 40K is because I don't have the time, energy, skill, or storage space to assemble, paint, and keep tons of minis, in addition to actually playing the fragging game, but all I need for D&D is a bag o' dice, my character sheet, and the books on my hard drive.

[AJCarrington]

Different strokes for different folks. As interested as I an in the game, I think I'm even more interested in the idea of using the minis to custom build runners.  However, I do appreciate that this is my opinion and that there are a lot of variables that need to be considered in the business model. Regarding pre-paint...not as big a deal for me, though I'd rather see that money go into the sculpts and mini designs (thinking of recent games like Zombicide and Sedition Wars).

While I haven't played Monsters in the Sky, I think they did a great job with the minis.  As noted previously, they "repaint" very nicely and seem to build up quickly and easily.

[Wakshaani]

My GUESS, as a mini gamer, is that we're looking at metal minis, with an outside chance at prepainted rubber (Well, 'plastic') ala HeroClix.

Metal minis are the cheapest to make, where you get a mold that can spin up metal into a frame, creating standard miniatures. IIRC, a mold that can make twelve minis a spin runs arond $2000, withe the number of minis in it based off of size.

Let's say that you start with six factions, each of which fllls up a mold, and then a 'mercenary' faction for the seventh. That'd be about a $14,000 investment, plus the rulebooks, art, advertising, and so on. Not a *huge* number, but enough to make people like me go, "Well, that's what I make in a year. Yipes."

Plastic molds need a much different machine. Vacuum molding of plastic is trickier... the molds last far, far longer than metal ones (After about a thousand spins, metal molds will start losing some detail. By ten thousand, you want to replace it. I *think* those are the right numbers. Plastic can generate around a million presses.) but are also more expensive. Again, IIRC, each plastic mold is $20,000 (Tho I have heard as low as $10,000 for the Clix style) ... that $14,000 start-up is closer to $140,000 with plastic.

So, plastic is better for the long term, but if you don't know if it'll be a success or not, you go metal.

[All4BigGuns]

I'd imagine that the miniatures themselves would be more durable as metal as well. If the molds are cheaper (even if they have to be replaced a little more often) and the resultant product is more durable, then it's a no-brainer.

[PeterSmith]

Except trying to do both wont happen.

I know. I was just making the point that one person's opinion is not shared among everybody.

[Sipowitz]

Except trying to do both wont happen.  They are two very different production systems.

I have always been of the opinion that if you have time to play the game then you have time to paint for the game.

If you're good at chess, then you should be required to make all the pieces with a wooden lathe?

Sounds like shit logic.

If you want to drive a car you should mine the ore to build it.  I can do sophism as well.

Prepainted is a completely different production method compared to unpainted.  The costs associated with prepaints is enormous compared to unpainted.  Those cost will be passed onto you the consumer. 

[All4BigGuns]

Except trying to do both wont happen.  They are two very different production systems.

I have always been of the opinion that if you have time to play the game then you have time to paint for the game.

If you're good at chess, then you should be required to make all the pieces with a wooden lathe?

Sounds like shit logic.

If you want to drive a car you should mine the ore to build it.  I can do sophism as well.

Prepainted is a completely different production method compared to unpainted.  The costs associated with prepaints is enormous compared to unpainted.  Those cost will be passed onto you the consumer.

And yet the most expensive miniatures I've seen are both unpainted and must be assembled oneself.

[Sipowitz]

My GUESS, as a mini gamer, is that we're looking at metal minis, with an outside chance at prepainted rubber (Well, 'plastic') ala HeroClix.

Metal minis are the cheapest to make, where you get a mold that can spin up metal into a frame, creating standard miniatures. IIRC, a mold that can make twelve minis a spin runs arond $2000, withe the number of minis in it based off of size.

Let's say that you start with six factions, each of which fllls up a mold, and then a 'mercenary' faction for the seventh. That'd be about a $14,000 investment, plus the rulebooks, art, advertising, and so on. Not a *huge* number, but enough to make people like me go, "Well, that's what I make in a year. Yipes."

Plastic molds need a much different machine. Vacuum molding of plastic is trickier... the molds last far, far longer than metal ones (After about a thousand spins, metal molds will start losing some detail. By ten thousand, you want to replace it. I *think* those are the right numbers. Plastic can generate around a million presses.) but are also more expensive. Again, IIRC, each plastic mold is $20,000 (Tho I have heard as low as $10,000 for the Clix style) ... that $14,000 start-up is closer to $140,000 with plastic.

So, plastic is better for the long term, but if you don't know if it'll be a success or not, you go metal.

Not quite.
 You're talking well under 100$ for a set of spin molds(to purchase) You can get into the business for under 12k$( Tekcast.com)
The largest cost is paying the sculpters, but that is changing now as well.  Computer scultping(like Zbrush) is making huge inroads into the system now and with places like safeway or moddler doing the 3d printing...
Go to youtube and search for zbrush speed sculpts,  a number of vids will pop.  It's a bold new future in miniature gaming.

[Sipowitz]

Except trying to do both wont happen.  They are two very different production systems.

I have always been of the opinion that if you have time to play the game then you have time to paint for the game.

If you're good at chess, then you should be required to make all the pieces with a wooden lathe?

Sounds like shit logic.

If you want to drive a car you should mine the ore to build it.  I can do sophism as well.

Prepainted is a completely different production method compared to unpainted.  The costs associated with prepaints is enormous compared to unpainted.  Those cost will be passed onto you the consumer.

And yet the most expensive miniatures I've seen are both unpainted and must be assembled oneself.

Your point?

[All4BigGuns]

Except trying to do both wont happen.  They are two very different production systems.

I have always been of the opinion that if you have time to play the game then you have time to paint for the game.

If you're good at chess, then you should be required to make all the pieces with a wooden lathe?

Sounds like shit logic.

If you want to drive a car you should mine the ore to build it.  I can do sophism as well.

Prepainted is a completely different production method compared to unpainted.  The costs associated with prepaints is enormous compared to unpainted.  Those cost will be passed onto you the consumer.

And yet the most expensive miniatures I've seen are both unpainted and must be assembled oneself.

Your point?

That it pretty well disproves your argument that pre-painted increases the cost at the store when the most expensive are unpainted and  not assembled.

[AJCarrington]

Fair point, but generally, the quality and detail of a multi-part (or not) unpainted sculpt (metal, resin or plastic) is far better than that of a pre-paint. IMHO

[Wildcard]

Except trying to do both wont happen.  They are two very different production systems.

I have always been of the opinion that if you have time to play the game then you have time to paint for the game.

If you're good at chess, then you should be required to make all the pieces with a wooden lathe?

Sounds like shit logic.

If you want to drive a car you should mine the ore to build it. 

Right. Your logic is shit no matter how you break it down.

Reductio ad absurdum was the correct term for it by the way, slick.