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Re-chambering Firearms

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Mantis

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« Reply #45 on: <02-17-13/0108:22> »
High-power rounds inflict a –2 dice pool penalty when fired due to excess recoil. pg 156 WAR!

How you can interpret it as anything other than recoil? And since it is recoil it should follow the rules for such. Recoil comp works on it and it only comes into effect after the first shot. Nothing about it applying any other way. Where does the confusion come in?

Aryeonos

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« Reply #46 on: <02-17-13/0531:43> »
I suppose the text for suffers extra recoil doesn't come up much on gear. So it's just a straight up cumulative recoil penalty then?
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Mirikon

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« Reply #47 on: <02-17-13/0754:22> »
The -2 is not a recoil modifier like with the number of bullets fired, but a "this round kicks too hard" thing. You get the penalty regardless, no matter how many rounds are fired in a pass. Whether Recoil Compensation affects the penalty or not is a gray area under the rules, however under even a relatively moderate reading of the rules, I would say that recoil compensation would not help with the penalty.
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MadBear

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« Reply #48 on: <02-17-13/1046:00> »
'Recoil is the backward momentum of a gun when it is discharged. In technical terms, the recoil caused by the gun exactly balances the forward momentum of the projectile and exhaust gasses, according to Newton's third law.'
By definition, this -2 penalty is recoil.  It's more than usual because there is more force than the gun is designed to handle. I get that. But it should in no way apply to the first round fired. Again, the additional force of the projectile and gasses exiting the barrel would have to push the gun out of position as the bullet is still in the barrel, and considering the high velocity of such a projectile, I find that hard to believe. Recoil works by adding a cumulative penalty because each shot moves the barrel slightly out of position. If the gun 'kicks to hard', then would not a shoulder pad and stock counter that? That would be recoil comp in action.
Now, as a GM I would look at this as a limiting/balance factor, not a realism one. I would not want people walking around with HP pistols or SMGs, so I would very much play up the Forbidden factor, and make them very, very hard to get. Expensive, too. Not something you want to toss away like those cheap and easy to get APDS rounds(which for my money, are more effective than HP rounds on a cost v return basis). HP rounds would be something the sniper would use. And because of that, I would not apply the -2 to the first shot, but to each addition one. I would pretty much end up doubling the recoil BEFORE comp is applied. -2 per additional shot each initiative pass. This is a take aim and geek that mother fragger kind of shot, not empty the magazine kind of shot.
This might be  RAW v RAI debate, but I for one just do not see how the extra kick could possibly affect the first shot.
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Mantis

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« Reply #49 on: <02-17-13/1223:38> »
Nor do I. It is called recoil and therefore should fall under the rules that affect such. Simple.

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #50 on: <02-17-13/2352:30> »
The way it's written, though, it applies to EVERY shot, even the first.

Which makes no sense.



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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #51 on: <02-17-13/2354:07> »
Unless I see a post from Mr. Hardy saying that RC applies to the penalty, I'll probably rule that it doesn't, mainly because it doesn't bother me that RC doesn't apply, but if it's supposed to, then with official word I will shift to the other ruling--being rather conservative on this one.
« Last Edit: <02-17-13/2355:48> by All4BigGuns »
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Anarkitty

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« Reply #52 on: <02-19-13/1337:29> »
According to the basic physics of firearms, without a complete redesign of the barrel, chamber and firing mechanism, increasing the powder charge will make the bullet go faster, but will make it less accurate.  It isn't exactly "recoil" in the same sense as the recoil that throws off subsequent shots, but it is a form of recoil that causes the bullet to wobble in flight and not spin properly.  Because it is caused by the barrel vibrating and the rate of spin being too low, standard forms of recoil compensation designed to correct for barrel rise between shots would have no effect on this.

To keep the same accuracy, the barrel needs to be lengthened and thickened and the rifling needs to be tighter, and the chamber and frame need to be reinforced.  At that point, you may as well just buy a more powerful gun.

What this says to me is that the -2 should be on every shot including the first, and should not be able to be compensated with RC modifications.

MadBear

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« Reply #53 on: <02-19-13/1400:07> »
Ok, now THAT is a well reasoned and articulate explanation for the penalty as written. (Not that I won't accept 'unless told otherwise, we play as written'.)
I would then ask, is that not the purpose of the Re-chambering Mod as found in WAR? I forget what the Threshold is, but I remember the cost is listed as 'Weapon Cost'. So, yeah, you are basically paying double the weapons cost to shoot these Troll-Fragging rounds.
With EX or Flechette rounds you have an increase in DV, with a corresponding penalty. But those are buy and load rounds. If you have to completely rebuild the weapon, should you not have an increase in DV or AP without a corresponding penalty? I think that is why I like the idea of re-chambering for higher caliber rounds; +1 DV with reduced ammo capacity and cost, and double uncompensated recoil.
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Anarkitty

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« Reply #54 on: <02-19-13/1933:34> »
Thank you.

On the flip side, it is also a question of game balance.  There has to be a significant trade-off for the increased power, and decreasing accuracy to balance it is an RPG staple. 

Mantis

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« Reply #55 on: <02-19-13/2307:49> »
I always thought the trade off on this mod was losing the ability to use any other type of ammo as well as loading the second  most difficult to acquire ammo. They aren't exactly cheap either.  But I'll second MadBear, good explanation.

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #56 on: <02-20-13/0705:14> »
Not being able to use other ammo actually irritates me. I think that cylinder weapons should still be able to use both. It's classic and realistic (.357 Mag. and .38 or .44 Mag and .44 for example). That said, I don't really by the -2 penalty due to recoil. If you've done the high power chambering mod, the weapon is designed to take the increased pressure. My .357 is more accurate than my .38 has ever hoped to be.

It is quite simply just a balance issue. There is no realistic reasoning for it.

JoeNapalm

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« Reply #57 on: <02-20-13/1518:02> »

The firearms rules are intentionally abstract, and eschew the use of specific calibers...

...so the whole HP round thing kinda bugs me.

Ambiguous +P rounds.

*sigh*

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Aryeonos

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« Reply #58 on: <02-21-13/1751:42> »
Still not as irritating as F rated hollow points, to me anyway, it just comes up more. But that was some damn good reasoning Anarkitty.
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #59 on: <02-22-13/0841:19> »
Still not as irritating as F rated hollow points, to me anyway, it just comes up more. But that was some damn good reasoning Anarkitty.

Eh, probably the only hollow points they've heard of were Black Talons.

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