Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Brehus on <03-11-13/2318:42>
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I've done some searching here and not found anything like this.
I'm trying to make a simple sensor package that I can hand off to the rest of my team so that they can join my tacnet (rating 3). I'm playing the hacker and am oddly the only person with sensor implants.
What I have so far is this.
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Glasses; Rating 4 100 Aval - (Sunglasses?)
Flare comp; 50 Aval +2
Image link; 25 Aval -
Camara; Rating 3 300 Aval -
Thermographic; 100 Aval +6
Low Light; 400 Aval +4
Earbuds; Rating 3 30 Aval Aval -
Microphone; Rating 3 150 Aval -
Select Sound; Rating 3 600 Aval +8
Audio Enhancment; Rating 3 300 Aval +2
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The tacsoft is hacked and would be run on the team member's commlink.
I'm also somewhat curious as to how drones and tacnets work, but that's a whole other post, or 50... I've been searching that all day and have found some contradicting info.
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So far, thats only 5 senses of the 9 you need, if I calculated correctly:
- vision
- thermographic vision
- low light vision
- sound
- spatial recognition
what you could add:
- radar or ultrasound
- laser range finder
- motion detector
- radio signal scanner
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It is rating x2 senses/sensors needed for the tacnet. I'd go with vision, thermographic, low-light, hearing, spatial recognition, and ultrasound.
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I would strongly reccomend having certain roles get certain sensors. For example, in visibility impaired circumstances, giving melee characters radial sensors like radar could be extremely useful - partially just for the "hey, this one's me" value. The exact benefits of a tacnet are up to the GM, and the GM very much should take what sort of sensors you have into account.
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Is there anything preventing a character from having a handheld sensor with ultrasound (or some other sensor) and just putting it in their pocket, hanging it on their belt or gecko-taping it to their clothes while the device is active?
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I could part the sensors out like that, but I really want to concentrate it all into one piece of equipment that I can just hand out.
The thought is to pass off a pair of sunglasses with all the sensors and such built in.
The glasses have flare compensation and Image link for 2 capacity,
The camera is another 1 capacity. the camera also has a built in microphone, which can be upgraded (maybe?)
this leaves one capacity of the glasses for the earbuds.
I know goggles have more capacity, but they don't look as cool.
Also, I may be reading the rules completely wrong here.
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Image link doesn't take up capacity. I think the explanation is that it's so common that everything has the hardware in order to be compatible, while others like low-light vision and ultrasound might need additional components.
Either way, glasses (maximum rating 4) with image link would still have a full 4 capacity. Flare compensation is 1, a trideo camera is another 1. That means you can slap on Ultrasound (2 capacity), or Thermographic, Vision Magnification, or Vision Enhancement which take 1 capacity. Or if you feel like it you can build in a different sort of sensor if you really feel like it, but most people use Sensor RFID chips for Motion Detectors or Radio Sensors or such. Radar sensors combined with an orientation system or chip of some sort (GM discretion) mapsoft can help your team navigate even if you're in poorly-charted areas because the orientation system description mentions map-editing software.
If you're running a tacnet, there are additional uses out-of-combat that you can make use of if you've got a skilled Face - a camera with Thermographic and sensor software Lie Detection gets a bonus for detecting falsehoods.
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I've been having problems finding the section of the rules that talk about how much capacity upgrades take up. Finding this section will really help when I build out my tacnet drones.
With that in mind, based off of input so far;
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Glasses rating 4:
Modules;
Image link,
Flare compensation,
Camera rating 4,
Ultrasound.
The camera has a built in microphone, and the following enhancements.
Low light
Thermal
Vision enhancement Rating 3
Vision magnification.
Earbuds tacked on with bondo if need be.
This gives 6 sensor channels, and the ability for team members to whisper to each other over distances. (option to add a sub-vocal mic?)
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If i can also mod the camera microphone I'd add;
Audio enhancement rating 3
Select sound (likely doesn't count as a sensor channel)
Spacial Recognizer.
This would give 8 sensor channels for the glasses easily supporting a level 4 tacnet. (Provided I have drones out)
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You could add a simrig to their commlinks to include any natural senses (vision, natural low-light, natural thermo, hearing, etc) they may have, lowering the number of things they need to carry.
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The point of this is to have an all in one sensor package in the form of a pair of sunglasses. it also works for when team members switch out (character death). just pass the new guy a data chip with the hacked tacsoft and a pair of sunglasses. No need for anyone to modify their own gear.
Also a pair of these glasses would still be really cheap to make.
2235 nuyen for the 6 channel version.
add another 1000 nuyen for the 8 channel version with rating 3 select sound.
A point here is that I'm equipping my team so that I can have the tacnet bonus. This is marginally cheaper than a drone fleet.
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You could add a simrig to their commlinks to include any natural senses (vision, natural low-light, natural thermo, hearing, etc) they may have, lowering the number of things they need to carry.
Don't you need datajack or trodes for simrig to function? That might not work for some characters. And it's dangerous for others, having your commlink (that can be hacked) directly connected to your brain is a bad idea unless you're a hacker yourself, becuase you might get all your sense overidden. It's better to have anything outward facing in glasses so you can remove them in case of rogue hacker.
It depends on how the GM interprets the setting, of course.
Also, I kind of expected pretty much every digital glasses to include recording function, because they already have to have camera to give you AR, low-light or thermo, and all else it needs are controls and storage, and everyhing in shadowrun has unlimited storage, right? Is recording really separate function you have to pay for?
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My thoughts on AR glasses normally coming with a camera and a mic is that they're crap for combat use. Thus I'd swap them out for upgraded components.
Also the glasses wouldn't block vision, they'd just have the extra info projected onto the lens. this will keep the mage happy with the whole natural line of sight.
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I'd use goggles for capacity, probably (and they can be made to look damn cool - see steampunk) - and skinlink everything. But that's just preference.
You've got to remember, too, that the character needs to have a commlink capable of running the TacNet, and ideally some other software to deal with encryption and ECCM.
nmap: Nowhere is it said that a DNI lets you hack someone's senses. Nowhere. That's not about interpretation, that would be houserules. Brainhacking just isn't in the rules as they stand.
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Goggles are good and all but I'm also the face, and goggles would clash with my business suit.
I guess goggles would look ok on the mage... and who cares about what the troll wears...
I suppose I could retool my wardrobe to be more steampunk. A gentleman in a Victorian coat with a top-hat would be memorable and I do wish to be remembered, at least by the right people.
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My thoughts on AR glasses normally coming with a camera and a mic is that they're crap for combat use. Thus I'd swap them out for upgraded components.
Also the glasses wouldn't block vision, they'd just have the extra info projected onto the lens. this will keep the mage happy with the whole natural line of sight.
That makes sense.
nmap: Nowhere is it said that a DNI lets you hack someone's senses. Nowhere. That's not about interpretation, that would be houserules. Brainhacking just isn't in the rules as they stand.
DNI from cyberarm probably not, but if datajack is enough to do BTLs (which I'm not sure whether you need simrig for), it should suffice for that. And datajack and cybereyes or cyberears definitely should.
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Only way you can hack someone's senses is if those senses are artificial (i.e. cybereyes). You cannot hack someone's actual senses. That's still magic's domain. Same goes for ghost hacking a la GitS. Not possible under current tech, though I'm sure people at Horizon are working on it.
To access BTLs, you need a SIM module modified for hot SIM and it needs to be either implanted, or you need a trode net.
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DNI from cyberarm probably not, but if datajack is enough to do BTLs (which I'm not sure whether you need simrig for), it should suffice for that. And datajack and cybereyes or cyberears definitely should.
Artificial senses are another can of worms, but you cannot hack a person's natural senses, full stop. Even technomancers can't do that to each other.
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Yet.
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I had a new thought for the tacnet in a bag. to truly make it easy for use. add in a cheap 300 nuyen commlink that's permanently slaved to the hacker's (mine)
This puts the tacnet in a bag at 3535 nuyen per person at 8 sensor channels. The main requirements at that point are for the hacker to have a good commlink setup.
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Don't you need datajack or trodes for simrig to function?
The simring has trode functionality built into it (plus the ability to record).
That might not work for some characters. And it's dangerous for others, having your commlink (that can be hacked) directly connected to your brain is a bad idea
It's not like hackers can hack your brain, and if it's just electronic security then you should be upgrading firewalls and limiting wireless transmissions in general. Check the core books, I remember either the core or Unwired explicitly mentioning that brain-hacking is an irrational fear people have about technomancers even though it's not actually possible. The worst you'd have to deal with is Black IC or tracing, but that's why you have a good commlink with good firewalls and Analyze, Command.
Also, I kind of expected pretty much every digital glasses to include recording function, because they already have to have camera to give you AR, low-light or thermo, and all else it needs are controls and storage
Not quite. AR as well as low-light or thermo are displays, usually overlays just like image link. Glasses do not have cameras by default (though you can add a microcamera which only takes one slot).
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Image link doesn't take up capacity. I think the explanation is that it's so common that everything has the hardware in order to be compatible, while others like low-light vision and ultrasound might need additional components.
Where does it say that Image Link doesn't take up capacity?
It explicitly states in Ultrasound that it takes up 2 Capacity, but doesn't have any statement in Image Link that would otherwise counter the statement that each enhancement takes up 1 Capacity. The fact that Image Link is extremely common is represented by the fact that it doesn't add to the vision enhancer's availability, and is also very cheap.
I've always viewed Capacity on Vision Enhancers (and Audio) to be its ability to run various inate "software", Image link is still an enhancement that the glasses would need to run, so it still takes up capacity. It is of course possible to have glasses without the Image Link.
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Image link doesn't take up capacity. I think the explanation is that it's so common that everything has the hardware in order to be compatible, while others like low-light vision and ultrasound might need additional components.
Where does it say that Image Link doesn't take up capacity?
It explicitly states in Ultrasound that it takes up 2 Capacity, but doesn't have any statement in Image Link that would otherwise counter the statement that each enhancement takes up 1 Capacity. The fact that Image Link is extremely common is represented by the fact that it doesn't add to the vision enhancer's availability, and is also very cheap.
I've always viewed Capacity on Vision Enhancers (and Audio) to be its ability to run various inate "software", Image link is still an enhancement that the glasses would need to run, so it still takes up capacity. It is of course possible to have glasses without the Image Link.
Image Link is included and takes no Capacity in Cybereyes and many helmets, but not Vision Enhancers (glasses, goggles, etc.). It is an enhancement and therefore takes up capacity. In fact on page 44 of Arsenal it lists Image Link as taking a Capacity of [2], though that is specifically in relation to armor.
Barring anything to the contrary I would say RAW is that Image Link takes [1] Capacity in a Vision Enhancer device.
Also, Capacity is hardware requirements, not software. That's why a Radar takes [5], and Thermometric takes [1]. Image Link is just video display, if it was software it would barely take any software capacity, even on a device today. It's the hardware that is the big limiter.
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True. Not sure why I said software, its capabilities really are more hardware dependent.
In any case, Image Link still takes up 1 capacity in Glasses/Goggles, etc.
EDIT: it takes 2 Capacity in a Helmet (for Milspec armor; armor suit capacity, not vision enhancer), in Arsenal it is listed in the Armor Suit Capacity items as Image Link/HUD.
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Taking Arsenal 44 into account the finalized Tacnet Ready Goggles are as follows
Goggles; Rating 6 300nuyen Aval -
Flare comp; 50nuyen Aval +2 Cap 1
Image link; 25nuyen Aval - Cap 2
Ultrasonic; 1000nuyen Aval +8 Cap 2
Camera; Rating 6 300nuyen Aval - Cap 1
Thermographic; 100nuyen Aval +6 Cap 1
Low Light; 400nuyen Aval +4 Cap 1
Vision Magnification 100nuyen Aval +2 Cap 2
Vision Enhancement 200nuyen Aval+4 Rating 2 Cap 2
Audio System? (AR pg.44) Cap 1
Earbuds; Rating 3 30nuyen Aval - Cap 1
Microphone; Rating 4 200nuyen Aval - Cap 1
Select Sound; Rating 3 600nuyen Aval +8 Cap 1
Audio Enhancement; Rating 3 300nuyen Aval +2 Cap 1
Spatial Recognizer; 100nuyen Aval +6 Cap 2
Goggles Capacity; 1(flare)+2(Image)+2(Ultrasonic)+1(Camera)+1(Earbuds)=6
Camera Capacity; 1(Therm)+1(Low Light)+2(Magnification)+2(Enhancement)=6
Earbuds Capacity; Microphone
Microphone Capacity; 1(Select)+1(Enhancement)+2(Recognizer)=4
Total parts cost= 3705nuyen
Total availability =42
Total sensor channels =9 (or 10 if you count select sound)
The glasses are one self contained unit. and with the high overall availability would likely be custom made by the people using them.
I decided to use the capacity for image link from Arsenal because I couldn't find anything else to use.
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No... it takes 1 capacity. The 2 capacity is if you're installing it in a helmet or suit of armor. Page 333 of SR4a says all mods take 1 capacity unless otherwise noted.
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No... it takes 1 capacity. The 2 capacity is if you're installing it in a helmet or suit of armor. Page 333 of SR4a says all mods take 1 capacity unless otherwise noted.
Not like it's bad to err on the side of caution, however.
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I'm having trouble recreating any of these in Hero Labs. Cameras can be added to Goggles, but can not have mods to them. Cameras can be added as a seperate device and be modded. Maybe shoulder mounted about the size of a soda can? Earbuds only have 3 capacity slots. I put audio enhancement rtg 1, select sound filter rtg 1, and spatial recognizer.
I made up some goggles with:
Base (Rtg 6) 300 nuyen
Laser Range Finder 100 nuyen
Low Light Vision 100 nuyen
Radio Sig Scanner (Rtg 6) 150 nuyen
Thermographic Vision 100 nuyen
Ultrasound 100 nuyen
Ear buds:
Base (Rtg 3) 30 nuyen
Audio Ehancement (Rtg 1) 100 nuyen
Select Sound Filter (Rtg 1) 200 nuyen
Spatial Recongnizer 100 nuyen
Am I understanding this right? Is that 8 sensors? so it would work for rating 4 tac-net?
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I'd use a microphone instead of the earbuds. Maybe make the earbuds a module in the microphone or goggles....
For herolab I'd have the goggles, the camera, and the microphone as separate items, just say they're clipped together. This also lowers the availability to off the shelf levels.
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Why just rating 1 audio enhancements? The higher ratings don't take higher capacity. Go big or go home, right? Have you talked to your team to see what they would like included? These are tools for them, after all.
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Each rating increases the capacity by one. Earbuds only have 3 cap. And to Brehus you cant add ear buds as a mod for glasses/goggles.They are a device un to themselves.
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Each rating increases the capacity by one. Earbuds only have 3 cap. And to Brehus you cant add ear buds as a mod for glasses/goggles.They are a device un to themselves.
Do go ahead and find a rule stating that they do so. I've certainly never seen one.
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Well the people at Hero Labs must have. Doesn't matter we use Hero Labs in my group and you can't fit everything avalible into earbuds via That program. Again I did state that is what I am trying to use Hero Labs to get all of the sensors onto goggles, earbuds, and a comlink.
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Or Hero Labs has the rule wrong. That said, if you're using it as the arbiter of these sorts of rules, well...
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Well the people at Hero Labs must have. Doesn't matter we use Hero Labs in my group and you can't fit everything avalible into earbuds via That program. Again I did state that is what I am trying to use Hero Labs to get all of the sensors onto goggles, earbuds, and a comlink.
It's a mess-up. The rating of goggles, earbuds, etc. is supposed to be how many of the appropriate type of enhancement it can hold (regardless of rating).
The ratings of vision sensors and imaging devices equals the number of vision enhancements that can be applied to the device.
The rating of such devices equals the number of audio enhancements they can be fitted with.
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Props to you for finding that page number first, All4.
Don't forget that, besides Tacnets being expensive all on their own, you also need good commlinks to run them. And will want good electronic protection.
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Tacnets can be really cheap when everyone is handed a slaved commlink. just need one copy of the tacsoft and a single good commlink, I'm talking rigger quality system because the max number of subscriptions you can have is systemX2
A cheap commlink is 500nuyen. It can't stand on it's own, but then it doesn't need to.
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Yeah, he's right, only one person needs to go to the expense of having the high-end comm and the software. Probably best to let the Rigger take care of it because he'll probably have the highest Electronic Warfare skill for encrypting that network.
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This is probably why Hero Labs says you can't fit everything into earbuds. You can find it in the section called Audio Enhancements.
Pg 333 SR4A
Audio enhancements are commonly available as earbuds or headphones. Each will play audio input from AR or other sources. Each enhancement costs 1 Capacity (per rating).
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That last sentence isn't in the copy I've got here...
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Huh, I never noticed that before. Someone should let the Chummer guy know so he can update his program to reflect this.
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RHat: It's in the latest copy of the PDF (March 29 version I believe).
mtfeeney: I've let the Chummer guy know but he says the majority seems to want to do things the other way. He did provide me an alternate gear file to keep those capacity limits though. You can find it via OMAE in the drop down menus.
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Personaly I like that not everything that can go into earbuds can fit in a pair at the same time.. It is the same for goggles when it comes to how much you can add to them from what is available. But it isn't true in regards to vision enhancements.
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Plus you can wear 2 vision systems, contracts and glades or goggles.
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Pshaw. Helmet over goggles over glasses over contact over cybereyes!
-k
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I'm pretty sure that goggles would take up the space that glasses would need...or would then be so large you wouldn't be able to find a helm that wouldn't encumber you.
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Pshaw. Helmet over goggles over glasses over contact over cybereyes!
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Dude, double monocles.
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Pshaw. Helmet over goggles over glasses over contact over cybereyes!
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Dude, double monocles.
Each with different mods. Ooh, could that be a way to use two Smartlinks?
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By rules as written no, but with if you're taking all of the penalties and you've come so prepared that you've got the two smartlinked weapons and two smartlink+image link monocles, I'd think why not? Alas.
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By rules as written no, but with if you're taking all of the penalties and you've come so prepared that you've got the two smartlinked weapons and two smartlink+image link monocles, I'd think why not? Alas.
Now I want to do that, but assume it applies a penalty due to the different sensory input in each eye equal to the Smartgun bonus. It cancels itself out so it doesn't break any rules, but I can see a Street Sam or Gun Bunny type character doing it just because it's "cool" to run dual Smartlinks.
As an advantage, only one or the other can be spoofed/hacked at the same time, and either one could be deactivated on the fly to allow the other gun to get the full Smartlink bonus.
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Why not just have both be dual-eyed? One hooked to contacts, one hooked to glasses/goggles. You bought smart link and image link on both pieces, using a huge chunk of capacity for this small thing. It seems perfectly reasonable to me for them to both work. It's not like you'd have a billion things in each eye that look like targeting reticules. Just 2, that's pretty hard to confuse.