Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Xzylvador on <03-25-13/1618:55>
-
I'm a huge fan of Fallout and Wasteland... and Shadowrun of course.
The Wasteland 2 gameplay footages (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9hQWqtxXPU) has got me wanting more, but I've still got to wait a long time for that game.
So maybe Shadowrun can help me get my fix of post-apocalyptic game.
To make it manageable and playable, though, I don't want to change too many (if any) of the existing rules and base it on the Shadowrun world.
So I need suggestions on how to make this game.
1. Setting:
Mostly, I'm playing with the idea of having someone/something causes a global war, resulting in bombs being detonated around the planet and destroying most of civilization as we know it. A powerful rogue AI seems most likely; they'd probably have the least problems with extinguishing life morally and have the best chance of breaking into military systems in order to activate the launch of ICBM's and stealth-bomber drones.
The game itself would then probably play 30 or 40 years past the event. This'd have given humanity a chance to "reorganize". Read: gangs of bandits to form, raiding the wastelands; "Governments" to form, re-form and fight each other over who is the real government; a few surviving smaller cities/enclaves barricading themselves in, torn between wanting to shoot anyone who approaches the walls for safety but needing to trade with outsiders for food and resources; etc.
Well... you know. Fallout, Wasteland, Mad-Max. Only it happened in Shadowrun anno 2074; so there still is some tech around, 'ware, magic, genetech, etc. Which brings me to point 2.
2. Equipment:
I don't want the "end of technology", mainly because I don't believe it'll happen. People are resourceful enough to salvage what can be salvaged; as said before, there'd be some places that survived because they were either not an interesting target or because they somehow beat the odds and managed to ward off some of the incoming fire. Heck, could be there's still some arcologies standing; at least partly. Of course, they'll all be in pretty bad shape; but there'll still be some medical facilities, people who know how stuff works, how to build it, where it can be built.
This'd allow me to use the rules as the exist without going over each item and saying "No, can't be found anymore" or "Yeah, that's still around".
But I also want everything to be harder to find... Would doubling all availability work?
Of course, money is another factor. I can imagine the first decade or so, money'd be worthless and trading for resources'd be the most important. Would it be credible to have money return after 4 decades? Would they use the little printed money that was used before the apocalypse or would they have a new system (aka, bottle caps), if so, what would make the most sense? Actual rare metals? New coins? New bills? Credsticks instead of physical cash already (doubt it)?
Anything I'm forgetting here? Stuff that'd really just be impossible to get? Stuff that'd be useless?
3. ???
Need input!
What am I missing? What can I use, what shouldn't I forget?
I believe there's a problem with nukes and magic? Still, some (half, more, less?) would have detonated, no? Could the increase of radioactivity and the distortion of magic because of all the damage and suffering have accelerated and increased mutation? I figure I can make up fluff about this as fits the setting best, but I'd like some back-up from precedents.
Of course, there'd have been plenty of thermobaric MOAB/FOAB bombs flying around and afaik those don't get messed with by magic, right?
Would there be more awakened critters and SURGE'd people walking around? "Freaks" already have a higher chance of having survived the apocalypse because they lived secluded from civilization, no?
How would megacorps work, IF they still work? I recon they'd still be a power. The media-based ones might have collapsed; but the ones more focused on weapons or resources could still be around and pretty powerful. Would Maersk (lots and lots of ships, harbors and resources around the world) and Proteus (Don't they have arcologies in the ocean, even below water? They could have survived and be among the most hospitable places in the world.) have increased its relative influence and replaced Horizon, Renraku, Neonet? Would there still (or again) be some sort of corporate council or would it just be a free-for-all?
-
check out hazard pay, It covers the underwater arcologies, space stations and moon/mars bases, as well as the rules for arctic and dessert environments.
my main question would be what happened to the dragons?
-
The world where at least 80% of awakened is Toxic :o
-
Hm. Dragons. Good point.
I generally consider them much, much too far above the PC's level to have any direct impact on the game...
Still, would be nice to have an answer; unless of course the remains of civilization don't have a real answer neither.
Could be that many were killed, after all their HQ's and lairs would be prime targets.
(Some of) the ones that survived might want to lay low for a couple of centuries to lick their wounds; others might decide that running keeping a low-profile and influencing things from behind the curtain instead of playing the bigshot; others still might see this as proof that they should dominate and might grab entire areas as their own (not really anyone around to stop 'em)...
Ideas & thoughts are always welcome, though.
-
You know this sounds like The Surge...
-
I feel like this could marginalize hackers and especially technomancers. If vast quantities of the UCAS have turned into an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland, there's not going to be a lot of wireless traffic to use your l337 skills on (I'd imagine).
-
I feel like this could marginalize hackers and especially technomancers. If vast quantities of the UCAS have turned into an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland, there's not going to be a lot of wireless traffic to use your l337 skills on (I'd imagine).
conversely we could see a new semi living matrix hosted by technomancers and the remaining functional tech, perhaps new echos let technomancers use the wilderness as a part of the matrix ala avatar. Technomancers could be highly sought after for their abilities to repair damn near anything with machine sprites, know most things with tutor sprites, and have long range communication via echos and resonance realms. takes some doing but even in a lower tech world technomancers could work fine.
-
Do you want a Post-Apocalyptic game or do you want Post-Apocalyptic Shadowrun...?
By which I mean, do you want to still have the flavor of Shadowrun or do you want pure, dystopian Post-Apocalyptica? You can't have the high-fantasy/cyberpunk AND post-apocalyptica, really... well, you can, but you end up with the Matrix (i.e. the movies) and that just leads to giant techno-dance parties in caves, and no one wants that.
A general classic (and IMO, vital) trope of PA-settings is the near-complete loss of infrastructure. No more wide-scale power generation, no more wide-scale industrial complexes, no more wide-scale food production (which means no more mass population centers), and no more easy travel - no interstate or planes or anything that requires large amounts of concentrated fuel. It wasn't an Apocalypse if you still have infrastructure. This doesn't mean you have to get rid of technology completely, it would just be relegated to a few small pockets of populations, who probably guard it jealously and are either abusive with it or extremely secretive and distrustful. Just doubling availability would not be adequate, or at least not in my mind. It would have to be largely unavailable, or perhaps what is available is automatically 2nd Hand or 3rd or 4th even... until you find one of those pockets of knowledge. The vast majority of populations should be surviving off of the desolated remnants of the former society, not just pulling it out of their pockets like it was just a hard rain they were avoiding.
Not only because of whatever caused the Apocalypse, but also because of this loss of infrastructure, another vital trope is a massive reduction in population (like 1 in 5, maybe 1 in 10 people survived). Population centers are smaller and farther away from each other. Prejudice is higher, fear of magic, other races, even technology - as that is possibly what brought about the apocalypse.
Basically, what is being described doesn't sound like a Post-Apoclyptic game to me... it sounds like a slightly more inconvenient Shadowrun. Ultimately, I think a PA game (a game where the focus of the setting is the aftermath of the apocalypse) would/should have a distinctly different feel and features than "Shadowrun After a Big War".
-
I haven't read everything everyone posted, so maybe some of the things I may be pointing out are already said. Anyway, I read your post and found the idea interesting, so I needed to write some random thoughts on it while they were still forming in my mind.
- Wouldn't it be more interesting (and more PA and shadowrun-like as well) not to have any explanation on what have caused the war/apocalypse? Things blowed up, information was lost, and now every one who put two and two together decides that any group they don't exactly understand could be the guilty party. A healthy dose of paranoia work miracles. Maybe it was an AI, but who can tell for sure if these ever existed? And that guys who controlled bots with their minds always were suspicious... Also, I've heard that before everything went to this hell, trolls were sold as slaves, and since the land was killed, everyone is equally fucked up; not saying anything, but things makes you wonder, you know? Anyway, if the dragons were all killed, how come no one never found any trace of their bones? Maybe I'm just over-evaluating an idea, but I like when the past history is lost as well as it's way of life. Or maybe it's just some effect of remembering a Canticle to Leibowitz when a read your post.
- At least the way I see post-apocalyptic settings, money really makes no sense. But there's a lot of things which would held value - functioning gear, food, fuel, drugs... Or maybe possession could be based on a system of reputation (if you have read Eclipse Phase, that's what I have in mind right now).
- I'm with emsquared on the availability issue. Just doubling it seems cheap and light-toned. But I have no clue on how to keep tech in the game while turning it rarer in the setting without making everyone just turn to magic.
-
But I have no clue on how to keep tech in the game while turning it rarer in the setting without making everyone just turn to magic.
In order for it to be Shadowrun still you'd want to somehow make magic part of the apocalypse anyway. Massive amounts of toxic zones and high background areas. Also, it's possible that whatever safe/selfish zones are left, such as still surviving megacorps are actually kidnapping and enslaving/hiring most magicians. It's pretty much what goes on in the regular SR world. The megacorps and cartels take away most of the skilled magicians from the Barrens that they can get their grubby hands on.
-
But I have no clue on how to keep tech in the game while turning it rarer in the setting without making everyone just turn to magic.
In order for it to be Shadowrun still you'd want to somehow make magic part of the apocalypse anyway. Massive amounts of toxic zones and high background areas. Also, it's possible that whatever safe/selfish zones are left, such as still surviving megacorps are actually kidnapping and enslaving/hiring most magicians. It's pretty much what goes on in the regular SR world. The megacorps and cartels take away most of the skilled magicians from the Barrens that they can get their grubby hands on.
Yup. Personally, I'd err on the side of lots and lots of toxic spirits. Background counts seem a little "unfun", basically amounting to: "Hey, your magic character isn't magic anymore for the rest of the run. Good luck with that." But tons and tons of toxic spirits make sense for a nuclear wasteland setting, and I mean... there are actual "radiocative" spirits in Street Magic.
-
You can't have the high-fantasy/cyberpunk AND post-apocalyptica, really... well, you can, but you end up with the Matrix (i.e. the movies) and that just leads to giant techno-dance parties in caves, and no one wants that.
Hell I thought that is what Shadowrun is meant to be. High fantasy/Cyberpunk postapocalyptic dystopia. Where am I wrong?
-
Hell I thought that is what Shadowrun is meant to be. High fantasy/Cyberpunk postapocalyptic dystopia. Where am I wrong?
It's a high fantasy/cyberpunk dystopian future, sure. But hardly post-apocalyptic in a classic sense (or maybe, not in a contemporary sense? :P). War happens all the time, that it happened in North America doesn't make it "the Apocalypse". The rule of law is still pervasive, as are modern conveniences like running water, on-demand power, easily attainable food, healthcare, and everything that generally classifies civilization as fully functional, even if it has a healthy dose of dysfunction in there with it. No. No apocalypse to be post-of.
-
The source is always eventually dealt with, but I remember in the video game series Metal Max (Metal Saga outside Japan), it wasn't until the third game where "why/how did this happen" is ever dealt with, and even then how flying manta ray-B2 spirit stealth bomber fusions exist is left to "it's amusing, now go play the game".
As for availability I would decide on a city (not a massive one) that's somewhat managed to pull itself out of the dark ages (not recovered completely), and speculate on what that would have. Assume that travel isn't completely gone and use their values for most places, with those super lucky underwater arcologies and cloistered bases not listed on outside matrix nodes manage to scrape by unscathed until they run out of supplies, which would still undoubtedly leave them in trouble by 50 years later.
@ emsquared: you can still have an apocalypse with some infrastructure there, but 1) most of it will be rebuilt from whatever can be put together afterwards, and 2) don't underestimate how survivable humans are. I'm sure that at least some samples of any particular technology would be around 15 years later, and possibly 30 years later assuming they're not destroyed by desperate moron outsiders. If they make it past those 30 years, they're probably regional powers of their own trying to get the rest of their standard of living up to what it used to be.
-
@emsquared: now im not sure how much familiar with the setting you are, but multiple mana cycle events, Goblinization, multiple Crashes (btw destroying most infrastructure), multiple Vitas plagues, Surge...I cannot see why war in north america should be even important in shadow of those multiple apocalyptic events.
-
There's two really easy options for a post-apoc game.
1: Set it in Chicago
2: Make everything basically like Chicago
Everything else is a little more complex, but an idea for fluffing it out is that if it's set in the world of Shadowrun, it's important that the corps are the ones that drop the bombs. The nations' armies are too decentralized and weak to do what they could once upon a time. They might not even have nukes anymore, and if they do they won't use them. The corps, however, have more than enough power to tear the world apart, and they might do just that if, say, the Corporate Court collapsed and the corps decided it'd be best to take out the competition.
-
Os make everything SCIRE like :)
-
@emsquared: now im not sure how much familiar with the setting you are, but multiple mana cycle events, Goblinization, multiple Crashes (btw destroying most infrastructure), multiple Vitas plagues, Surge...I cannot see why war in north america should be even important in shadow of those multiple apocalyptic events.
That's why I said it wasn't an apocalypse in the contemporary sense, these would fit a classical definition of apocalypse. But Xyzl was referencing "End of Times" inspirations. If you can leave your luxury apartment, wave to your door-man, get in your sedan, go down the street to the stuffer shack and get your stuffy-deluxe with a shake, while checking out the latest celebrity buzz on your commlink, on the way to your 9-5 as a finance administrator - it's not after the apocalypse. Sorry, it just isn't.
-
IMO all those PA visions just underestimate mankind's will and ability to survival and rebuild. We pray on this so called civilisation like it is something prescious. You need to realize, that what you will call apocalypse...loss of comunication, infrastructure, crash of global monetary system, all of that is still day to day reality for wast populated areas on the earth. And they still live their normal lives, breed, hope and some even prosper. And if the "end of days" scenario cames to play, it is usualy methaphore for isolation and loneliness. This can be difficult to roleplay, when you are sitting in the living room, sharing the game with your friends. But not impossible.
-
We pray on this so called civilisation like it is something prescious. You need to realize, that what you will call apocalypse...loss of comunication, infrastructure, crash of global monetary system, all of that is still day to day reality for wast populated areas on the earth. And they still live their normal lives, breed, hope and some even prosper.
Dude, I dunno when (or why) you transitioned from talking about a game and tropes of popular culture to reality, but I don't need to realize anything. I'm well aware of how most people on earth live, and I'm well aware of the resiliency of humans. What you need to realize is that the OP asked for input on how to make Shadowrun more like an End-of-Times Post-Apocalypse setting, that's what I'm giving input on. Not on your opinions of what might or should or will be an apocalypse, and not even on MY opinions of what might or should or will be an apocalypse. Ya dig?
If you want SR to be more like Fallout or Mad Max, you're looking at a complete decentralization of all human power structure/civilization (no rule of law, with the exception of isolated settlements), a complete loss of large-scale infrastructure where mankind is living off the remnants of former society (with the exception of isolated and either tyrannical or secretive populations), and a complete reduction of social and civil structures to essentially tribes, distrustful at best of each other. That's what those settings are characterized by, and that's what I'm talking about because that's what this thread wanted to talk about. I think 'ware would no longer be in production, only available via "recycling" and therefore probably buggy and ESS devouring, the Matrix wouldn't be around because it requires massive technical infrastructure, and high-tech weaponry wouldn't be in production anymore either, all of this with to the exception of a few pocket civilizations that happened to make it through or have harvested the knowledge and technology. Magic would be feared if not reviled, most would be toxic and/or those who aren't are in danger of drifting that way, racism and classism and all kinds of prejudice would be rampant, corporations are gone (at least as such) and generally everywhere is now the Barrens, or the Wild West, or a 3rd-World Country.
What do you find objectionable to this vision, in relation to how it compares to the aforementioned popular depictions of the Post-Apocalypse?? Because in my opinion, that's pretty much what you're looking at.
-
We pray on this so called civilisation like it is something prescious. You need to realize, that what you will call apocalypse...loss of comunication, infrastructure, crash of global monetary system, all of that is still day to day reality for wast populated areas on the earth. And they still live their normal lives, breed, hope and some even prosper.
Dude, I dunno when (or why) you transitioned from talking about a game and tropes of popular culture to reality...
This happens when I have to wake up at 0500AM and drive to the work :D
If you want to enjoy this kind of setting in shadowrun, you can just use what setting already offers: Desert Wars. Chicago. Madagascar. lots of places in france. Areas hit by Black tide. Lagos, New Dehli and other feral cities. Everything you ask for is there. Just use it.
-
If you want SR to be more like Fallout or Mad Max, you're looking at a complete decentralization of all human power structure/civilization (no rule of law, with the exception of isolated settlements), a complete loss of large-scale infrastructure where mankind is living off the remnants of former society (with the exception of isolated and either tyrannical or secretive populations), and a complete reduction of social and civil structures to essentially tribes, distrustful at best of each other.
While I agree that this is a trope of post-apocalyptic settings, I want to point out that Xzylvador mentioned over 50 years passing. Without something actively disrupting remaining civilization, people are going to rebuild. We may not have functional airports and mass-transit, but it's likely that at least some cities will have (re)built rail connections, and it's very likely that roads will have been rebuilt across large regions.
high-tech weaponry wouldn't be in production anymore either, all of this with to the exception of a few pocket civilizations that happened to make it through or have harvested the knowledge and technology
Precision manufacture could have started to move out of the "dark ages" if it's been 50 years (unlikely with 30 or less), so we may or may not see new-model sport rifles, smartguns, non-dirigible aircraft, etc. Until 60 years it would still be unlikely to see miniturized tilt-wing aircraft or drones, lasers, grindlink-compatible cars, and things like that.
Beyond any of those and it becomes less about what humans might realistically be capable enough (even psychohistory had trouble predicting planets' paths in Isaac Asimov's foundation) and more about what the storyteller wants the theme to be (survival of the fittest? Everything's gone. What is civilization and man's relationship to it? Both guns and medicine are pretty much back...)
-
BTW the rest of the post was IMO what I think this PA metaphore means for us right now. What symbols can describe it and what are they describing. But so far I`m not interrested in continuing this kind of intelectual trip...as more imminent things are here to take care of :P
good night :)
-
If you want to enjoy this kind of setting in shadowrun, you can just use what setting already offers: Desert Wars. Chicago. Madagascar. lots of places in france. Areas hit by Black tide. Lagos, New Dehli and other feral cities. Everything you ask for is there. Just use it.
I did this for a single long Shadowrun set in the Crash Zone in the Redmond Barrens. I just had Ares cordon the whole area off and refuse to let anyone out without a search and questioning. The team couldn't easily leave because they had found a bit of nano tech Ares wanted. And to try to get a bit of that scrounging Fallout feeling, I had rat shamans steal ammo and food supplies. Worked fairly well for that limited duration, but the team was itching to leave and get back to modern conveniences, especially since there was a nasty background count.
-
Yeah. Barrens. It is funny that players usualy want to go international ASAP, while it is possible to spend years in the same neighborhood and stil have a lot to do.
-
I want to point out that Xzylvador mentioned over 50 years passing.
Actually it was "30 or 40" but who's counting. As you and I have both now mentioned, it's not the point of this post to get into the logistics and reality of what a re-building process would require, and where it would/should/or could be at after X years. Ultimately it's about what you want the setting to reflect, and Xzyl said:
[Enough time has passed for] gangs of bandits to form, raiding the wastelands; "Governments" to form, re-form and fight each other over who is the real government; a few surviving smaller cities/enclaves barricading themselves in, torn between wanting to shoot anyone who approaches the walls for safety but needing to trade with outsiders for food and resources; etc.
Well... you know. Fallout, Wasteland, Mad-Max. Only it happened in Shadowrun anno 2074; so there still is some tech around, 'ware, magic, genetech, etc. ... I don't want the "end of technology"
I don't find this vision of Xzylv's to be inconsistent with what I've said. However, the notion that you could still buy 'ware and guns off the shelf I found to be wholly and completely inconsistent with a "Fallout, Wasteland, Mad-Max" PA-setting, even if it's not the End of Technology. Why? Because of the sheer amount of utility-power it requires to manufacture this stuff, that's why I said that 'ware should be 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand (pulled out of body after body), and high-tech stuff shouldn't be in production (YET AGAIN I say - with the exception of a few pockets who've held onto, unearthed or restored the technology on a small scale).
I don't think anything I've said is even that inconsistent with what you've said, Mithlas.
-
one form of PA-setting which wasn't brought up would be one where technology reigned. for instance: multiple AIs warring over power while the remaining humans/metas, also at war with eachother staying true to the many factions of SR, stuggle to survive. thinking similar to terminator: salvation, more battlefield earth(with the exception of robots instead of aliens).
thoughts?
-
@emsquared: now im not sure how much familiar with the setting you are, but multiple mana cycle events, Goblinization, multiple Crashes (btw destroying most infrastructure), multiple Vitas plagues, Surge...I cannot see why war in north america should be even important in shadow of those multiple apocalyptic events.
Except that those weren't apocalyptic events, Sichr. They may have been major deals, perhaps even to the level of cataclysms, but none of them were the apocalypse. Not in North America, anyways. Africa is a completely different story. But then, it always is.
The difference between the individual calamities that have gone down and an apocalypse would be the same as the difference between a 7.0 earthquake and a 10.0 earthquake.
-
IE Crash: economic, energetic, social and healthcare infrastructure disappears or is shattered GLOBALY, overnight, followed by several meltdowns, major leaks in chemical industry. And, inevitably, major damage of knowlede base. Ability to recover from such event, as described in shadowrun timeline, is optimistic to the level of expectation of major miracle every day years in the row. For apocalyptic setting all you need is to apply pesimism and Murphy's laws. I understand, that this is different from "The Road" or "Cats Cradle" scenario, where all is gone including hope. But Fallout/Wasteland setting is another case, since those are recover/rebuild scenarios, where humanity prevails. Just for an inpiration, nice image of what Crash would have done and how it creates beautiful urban postapo setting I'd recomend Knut Faldbakken: Aftenlandet (well I not sure if it was translated to eglish)
-
The crash really doesn't seem to have done so much damage to the level of science and knowledge of the human civilization. If anything, it looks like it pushed it further, boosting research and infrastructure for a completely new and more complex, wireless matrix.
Sure, data was lost, but science where it is in 2074 is much, much further than it was in 2055. On some fields, such as on the field of communications, I'd say i'd guess they've done more progress than they would have done without Crash 2.0.
-
Except that didn't happen, Sichr. Large parts of the Matrix were damaged, yes, but there were major portions that were not, such as most of Europe, thanks to Lofwyr. Moreover, the Wireless Matrix Initiative was already gearing up to go before the Crash even hit. Afterall, that's why Horizon came off relatively unscathed, they just happened to be changing over to the new system when the Crash hit. In major sprawls, the new WMI protocols were going up within a couple weeks after the Crash, shortening a process that likely would have happened gradually over months or a year or two. The economy was disrupted severely, and there was a lot of chaos, including many people losing their SINs, but the basic structure of the economy remained, so there was no economic collapse (thanks in no small part to the megas snapping up smaller firms to shore up their accounts). Even the fall of Cross was not enough to start a chain reaction of collapse. There were isolated cases of social unrest (the New Revolution, etc.), but other than Tir Tairngir, not much changed, and there was no collapse of law and order.
To get to apocalyptic levels, you have to have an event that is able to overcome the world's natural bias to not go apocalyptic. Nuclear war, a plague that treats the first world like VITAS treated Africa, a cataclysmic, long-lasting economic crash, etc. We've had wars, plagues, and economic crashes before, even in the real world, and haven't gotten to apocalyptic levels yet. For instance, the Great Depression was part of a world-wide economic downturn that caused massive civil unrest. However, despite lasting for years before World War II ended it, there was no apocalyptic change. World War II was a big deal, involving a global war with all the first world countries, devastating large portions of Europe and Asia. But it did not spiral out into an apocalypse. Even the US Civil War, where there were battles that had casualties of over 20,000 men in a single afternoon, and utterly decimated the economy of the South did not drive the Southern states into an apocalyptic state.
To achieve an apocalyptic state, you need something like what happened with VITAS in Africa, where 80+ percent of the people died, forcing a complete halt to any kind of social order, but affecting first world countries to that degree. And that simply hasn't happened in the Shadowrun universe, despite the best efforts of Winternight and others.
-
I was talking about the first one, where Echo Mirage was active. Also, I see the fallout of the crash 2.0 is storyline oriented and not necessarily reflects catastrophic scenarios for such event...it is one of alternatives of what could happen, and it is the one that serves the story the best. The fact is it caused only slight disturbances that were surprisingly quickly contained/dealt with. History has long record of great, complex civilisations and cultures wiped out by much lower shocks.
That doesnt mean I criticize storyline, btw, before anyone tries to accuse me of such intentions.