Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: firebug on <05-13-13/1709:14>
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I just want to see if I'm missing something...
The Ares MP-LMG is a pretty decent LMG. It's 12F (so you can buy it at chargen), comes with 2 or 3 Recoil Compensation out of the box, and is only 1,500¥.
But directly underneath it is what's probably the most pointless LMG printed, as it is in no way ever worth purchasing or using over the gun printed two lines above it in the chart (and immediately above it in the descriptive text).
The GE Vindicator is 16F, comes with no recoil compensation, uses 15 bullets instead of 10 for a Full Burst (with no added benefit), has no standard upgrades to speak of, and even requires an additional action to bring the barrel up to speed before it can be fire, even going so far as to specify that it makes an "easily recognizable and audible" sound. To top the dungpile off, it's actually three times more expensive than the MP-LMG, plus another 1000 on top.
Why was this gun even printed? Every difference from the norm of LMGs it has is a downgrade and it's not even cheaper.
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Ares marketing and contracts. Sure, you got those nice Ares Alphas for your front-line troops, but with the purchase of ten cases of MP-LMGs you'll get the extended maintenance contract at 20% off that'll guarantee you spare parts and ammo deliveries in less than 24-hours! Even if the unit is undergoing combat!!!
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Because nothing can quite make the opposition crap their pants quicker than a minigun. They sound like hell itself is opening up.
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Because nothing can quite make the opposition crap their pants quicker than a minigun. They sound like hell itself is opening up.
True enough.
Hitler's Zipper has nothing on a minigun.
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That's because you're not thinking clearly, Firebug. The MP-LMG can do good things for you as a man-portable gun. But the Vindicator really shines as a vehicle weapon or drone weapon. Once you get those barrels spinning, you can unleash molten death upon other vehicles like nobody's business. There's a reason why people put the same kind of gun on a chopper and let soldiers hose down jungle with them today. And when your target has some armor, that extra +15 DV can make all the difference in the world, especially since weapons mounted on vehicles don't bother with recoil.
And yes, that distinctive sound you were talking about? It is the same as if you hear a lightsaber hum in a Star Wars movie. You might as well start running now, because shit is about to go DOWN!
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And let's not forget the core tenet of Cyberpunk:
Style over substance!
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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"Minigun spinning up. Be somewhere else. NOW!!!" "Geht ta da choppah!" "We don't have a chopper, Mungo! We came in a VAN!" "Mungo whantz hiz Ise Creem Truk Bak."
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*Jumps behind cover* "Oh god! Why's the cover disappearing!"
I know they're not the same size, but hearing an A-10 do a run is both the greatest and most horrifying sound in the world.
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Indeed. You hear one of those things, it is best to de-ass the area with a quickness.
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That's because you're not thinking clearly, Firebug. The MP-LMG can do good things for you as a man-portable gun. But the Vindicator really shines as a vehicle weapon or drone weapon. Once you get those barrels spinning, you can unleash molten death upon other vehicles like nobody's business. There's a reason why people put the same kind of gun on a chopper and let soldiers hose down jungle with them today. And when your target has some armor, that extra +15 DV can make all the difference in the world, especially since weapons mounted on vehicles don't bother with recoil.
What extra +15 DV? It does the same damage as the MP-LMG but just uses more bullets to do so.
I won't discount the badassery of someone hearing the gun and knowing to run before you shoot though. I'm just sayin'...
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I guess you missed the fact it is a minigun and uses the minigun rules (pg 30 Arsenal, the big black box).
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My bad, it was +14 instead of +9 for the long burst. Go open your copy of Arsenal, and find the page with the Vindicator on it. Now turn to the next page, and read sidebar at the top about miniguns. Page 30. You can do a +14 (or give them a -14 to defend, I guess), or split it into two long and one short burst, one long and three short bursts, or five short bursts. So if you mount that baby on a vehicle to negate the 14 recoil (before doubling it, as always for heavy weapons), you've got a nasty piece of work that can chew through vehicles, or people, with ease. And that's before you do horrible things like putting ExEx, APDS, or SnS in there.
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Can't believe nobody realized that was the misunderstanding you had. I was on the laptop without my login and was waiting for someone to spot it. ^_^'
You said it's 15 bullets instead of 10 for the same damage. It is not. A Burst of any kind always is either -(#Bullets-1) to dodge for wide, or +(#Bullets-1) on damage for narrow. A minigun thus uses a -14 to dodge or +14 DV. It also has additional rules for hitting multiple targets and suppressive fire, which are listed on the next page (Arsenal p30).
So basically that Vindicator, on a narrow burst, will do 5 damage more than the full burst of a normal machinegun.
Now as for its Recoil: Add a stock, a grip, a gas vent 3 and a tripod and you hit 11 RC. A Strength-10 Troll then ends up with 1x2 Recoil. Stock+Grip+GasVent3 while mounted on a Body-9+ vehicle would, even with Body-as-RC, mean no recoil when used with Gunnery.
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Uh, I realized it. That's why I posted what I did. ;)
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Yes. After he posted it again. =P I meant after his first post, I realized two hours ago.
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Ah well I was late to the party so wanted to get my 2¥ in.
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Charges Mantis' credstick. Thank you for the donation good sir.
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It also does 1.5x DV with Suppressive Fire which has some amusing uses.
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It also does 1.5x DV with Suppressive Fire which has some amusing uses.
"Do you know that Suppressive Fire actually CAUSES fires? It's a fact, I've experimented extensively." "USING A FULL BELT OF TRACERS!!!" "Well, that might have something to do with it, yes..."
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Mmm. Suppressive fire with FA grenade launchers with WP grenades...
Sorry, lost track of things for a moment. But yes, miniguns are far from pointless, though they certainly aren't much good as a man-portable weapon. Slap one on your Steel Lynx, however, and watch the fun. Just make sure to buy LOTS of ammo.
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Mmm. Suppressive fire with FA grenade launchers with WP grenades...
Sorry, lost track of things for a moment. But yes, miniguns are far from pointless, though they certainly aren't much good as a man-portable weapon. Slap one on your Steel Lynx, however, and watch the fun. Just make sure to buy LOTS of ammo.
Add on the FA grenade launcher with White Phosphorus grenades as an under-barrel weapon on that Steel Lynx's mini-gun. :D
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Better yet, two Steel Lynxes, one with the minigun, one with the grenade launcher, both doing suppressive fire. Make them keep their heads down or catch lead, and then use overlapping grenade rules! Mmmm.
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At that point you might as well upgrade to the GE light autocannon and the multiple missile launcher from SR4A.
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Panther Assault Cannon with an Underbelly Panther Assault Cannon? ;D
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Wait, you can be Gas-vent 3 on a minigun? Do you have to pay for it 15 times, once for each barrel?
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Miniguns usually only have 6 barrels, the GE Six Pak had 6 barrels (obviously), the GAU-19A was 3 barrels, if I recall correctly. My memory is a little fuzzy but I seem to recall the minigun in second edition resembling the GAU 3 barrel triangular setup.
In any case, you're just porting the barrels at the right angles to bleed off excess gas to reduce felt recoil (also bullet velocity but that's not in the rules). Anyone doing that should be charging by the barrel, they could, but RAW the wouldn't have to.
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At that point you might as well upgrade to the GE light autocannon and the multiple missile launcher from SR4A.
According to SR4a, you can't, since SR4a contradicts Arsenal and says your max of mounts is Body/3, rounded down. That means no drone can have more than 1 weapon mount. Since Vehicle Weapons are all heavy and require Reinforced Weapon Mounts, which use 2 mount-space, that'd mean a drone cannot get a Reinforced Weapon Mount.
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Unless it comes with one, stock, in which case it was designed with one in mind from the factory floor. ;D
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That's true and I checked the list, alas there's no reinforced weapon mount drones in Arsenal and SR4a.
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There is in WAR!, or are we just not going to mention that book? Also there are some in This Old Drone as well.
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At that point you might as well upgrade to the GE light autocannon and the multiple missile launcher from SR4A.
According to SR4a, you can't, since SR4a contradicts Arsenal and says your max of mounts is Body/3, rounded down. That means no drone can have more than 1 weapon mount. Since Vehicle Weapons are all heavy and require Reinforced Weapon Mounts, which use 2 mount-space, that'd mean a drone cannot get a Reinforced Weapon Mount.
Despite technically being newer, SR4A is still the core book. This means that such things are intended to be kept as "simple" as possible. If using the vehicle modification rules, it would make the most sense if one determined "max mounts" by whatever criteria those present instead.
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There is in WAR!, or are we just not going to mention that book? Also there are some in This Old Drone as well.
Let's not mention Bogota!, but mention This Old Drone as often as possible. ;D
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I`ve still got the mental image of a Str 10 troll using one of these monsters like normal people use an SMG, jumping in and out of cover and prompting KE to either call out the National Guard or hire a team of runner to deal with it. Gotta make him an adept too.
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Lessee... 10 Strength is 2 RC, Tripod 6, Gas Vent 3 is 3, Personalized Grip is 1, Heavy Barrel is 1, Rigid Stock is 1... 2+6+3+1+1+1=14, fully compensated.
Without the tripod the best you can do is 9 RC so jumping in and out of cover won't work that easily.
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Adept Centering or that Concentration thingy from digital grimoire might help? :-\
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Ditch the tripod, use a Gyromount. If you're using a LMG you aren't being subtle anyways.
You can also use foot anchors for another 2 points if you don't want Strength 10+.
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Lessee... 10 Strength is 2 RC, Tripod 6, Gas Vent 3 is 3, Personalized Grip is 1, Heavy Barrel is 1, Rigid Stock is 1... 2+6+3+1+1+1=14, fully compensated.
Without the tripod the best you can do is 9 RC so jumping in and out of cover won't work that easily.
Damn is that one slot Overmodded? :(
Gotta load it with Tracer for the image of a solid looking beam of light chopping things up.
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Eh, Gas Vent and Rigid stock are external mods, so all you have is Heavy Barrel [3] and Personalized Grip [1].
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At that point you might as well upgrade to the GE light autocannon and the multiple missile launcher from SR4A.
According to SR4a, you can't, since SR4a contradicts Arsenal and says your max of mounts is Body/3, rounded down. That means no drone can have more than 1 weapon mount. Since Vehicle Weapons are all heavy and require Reinforced Weapon Mounts, which use 2 mount-space, that'd mean a drone cannot get a Reinforced Weapon Mount.
The example given was using 2 steel lynxes, the GE Light autocannon does not need a reinforced weapon mount.
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I kinda doubt that, given this: "A normal weapon mount can hold a firearm of up to LMG size, while a reinforced weapon mount can hold firearms larger than LMG size." Main Guns are excessive, so wouldn't be able to fit into something that can only hold an LMG.
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It says it can be mounted in a Flexible mount, but it still is a Main Gun and so it needs a Reinforced Flexible Mount, which takes two mount slots.
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Completely missed that one myself by the way, until HeroLab refused to let me mount a Vanquisher in a Heavy Turret until I Reinforced it. That's the second time, out of three times, that HeroLab told me "uhm, dude, pay attention" and I went "oh right! How did I miss that..."
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Miniguns usually only have 6 barrels, the GE Six Pak had 6 barrels (obviously), the GAU-19A was 3 barrels, if I recall correctly. My memory is a little fuzzy but I seem to recall the minigun in second edition resembling the GAU 3 barrel triangular setup.
In any case, you're just porting the barrels at the right angles to bleed off excess gas to reduce felt recoil (also bullet velocity but that's not in the rules). Anyone doing that should be charging by the barrel, they could, but RAW the wouldn't have to.
The drop in muzzle velocity would be negligible. Certainly not enough to be reflected in a reduced DV.
That said, you better have some badass optics with flare compensation. The end of that thing would be a huge ball of fire. I'd never port an IRL weapon for combat use..until I get cyber eyes....will blind you in low-light.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Yeah, but that's what those large shrouds are for. Considering it's a rifle grip gun, I'm sure they probably took some considerations for having a heat shroud for use with the gas vents.
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Yeah, but that's what those large shrouds are for. Considering it's a rifle grip gun, I'm sure they probably took some considerations for having a heat shroud for use with the gas vents.
I'm no physicist, but if you put a shroud over the port, I'm fairly sure you defeat the purpose.
The escaping gas forces the barrel down. If it pushes up on a shroud...equal, opposite reaction.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Because Miniguns are innately cool.
Seriously...I agree the gun is, mechanically speaking, pretty garbage. That hasn't kept it from showing up in my games...because miniguns are innately cool.
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I'm only disappoint that there is no checkbox in chummer for buying an MG as a minigun.
Yeah, but that's what those large shrouds are for. Considering it's a rifle grip gun, I'm sure they probably took some considerations for having a heat shroud for use with the gas vents.
I'm no physicist, but if you put a shroud over the port, I'm fairly sure you defeat the purpose.
The escaping gas forces the barrel down. If it pushes up on a shroud...equal, opposite reaction.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Well, yes a recoil comp muzzle brake would serve that purpose, the gas vent is, at least the internal version, designed to bleed off the gas so it's not shooting full bore out the front.
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Now, answer me this, why would you ever use shuriken over throwing knives?
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There should be such a check box in Chummer though. Mention it to Nebular and he'll likely add it in. The side bar in Arsenal says LMGs, MMGs, and HMGs can all be made as miniguns. I suppose you would do this via the High Velocity mod and though the mod itself only mentions the High Velocity rules on pg 26, I think this is an editing error or just an oversight on the devs part.
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I got the impression that when they said any LMG, MMG, or HMG, could be constructed as a minigun was done when it was bought, not as a modification.
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I believe previous editions let you do it as a mod. If it was intended as something you buy as a pre-installed thing, they should have included a price markup of some sort. Without that price, the only way to do it is via a mod like High Velocity, which is the closest thing to what a mini-gun is compared to a standard LMG/MMG/HMG. Or at least what seems the most reasonable to me is for anytime you apply the High Velocity mod to those particular weapons it turns them into mini-guns rather than a high velocity version of the weapon. Price and difficulty seem about right.
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Only light, medium, or heavy machine guns can be constructed as miniguns.
That would indicate to me it's a pre-market option, or variation. As in, there are likely weapons similar to an Ares PLD, but are electric driven gatling guns.
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That woud be a Hell of a mod.
"We'll, we'll replace the barrel, forearm, chamber, firing mechanism, trigger assembly, ammo feed, sights...maybe keep the stock and fuzzy dice."
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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All I see are fuzzy dice spinning around at 1'200 RPM. I think that'd be anti gyro-stabilization, negative quality.
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All I see are fuzzy dice spinning around at 1'200 RPM. I think that'd be anti gyro-stabilization, negative quality.
They come in pairs for a reason.
You put them on opposite barrels.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist.
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It just doesn't seem to work in my head that they'd balance out. But then again my imagination puts certain stupid blocks on me, like every time I think of holding a bokken it won't stay straight forward and instead slips around in my paw, like I couldn't possible control its rotation. I think this is the only downfall to ADHD.
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Not only would they balance out, they'd have a gyro-stabilizing effect.
Plus, they'd be awesome.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Well as there are only 3 guns in the game that use mini-gun rules and two of them aren't even machine guns (the GE Vigilant and Vanquisher auto cannons), it seems a bit strange to say that only LMG, MMG and HMGs can be built that way if there is no way to build them. They may as well have just left that line out completely. Did they expect GMs to come up with their own house versions and wanted to limit what they made? Why bother when they themselves break that very restriction with the two cannons? And if a GM wants to have his own house versions of weapon, who are they to say what he can and cannot house rule? Very weird.
How about replacing the strings on those dice with monowire as an ad-hoc brush/person clearing device?
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I think in addition to having an "Is Minigun" check box there should be a "Has Fuzzy Dice" check box, now the real question, are they florescent?
I don't think the goal was to make house ruling, it was to say, any LMG-HMG can use the minigun rule, when you purchase it.
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What minigun rule?
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If we paint the barrels red, do they spin faster to get more bullets out? ;D
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Yes.
Hm, good point, wonder why they say you can turn machine guns into miniguns when there's no rule for it. Now the High Velocity mod takes a LOT of effort and costs twice as much as the gun, so a Minigun variety would be at least that much. Hm, I'd call the Vindicator overpriced if all it takes is a x3, but the Ares MP-LMGx3 might be cheaper but would be stuck with a gas-vent 2 that you would want to get rid of in many cases.
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Why on earth would you remove the gas vent? Just upgrade and it overwrites, at any rate, the rule is the machine gun can be a minigun, when it is built.
If we paint the barrels red, do they spin faster to get more bullets out? ;D
It'll only shoot as fast as it is snazzy, you'd want to paint it blue so the shots are luckier, and thus land more. Maybe even set up an airbrush in front of the belt feed to make sure each shell is yellow.
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You can't remove installed gas-vents and can't equip guns that have one with another one, according to SR4a.
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I believe you'd follow the rules for removing upgrades, or stock upgrades, then add in the better version of the upgrade. Either that, or pick a different gun to have as an electric driven gatling gun. (Or gas driven gatling gun.)
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See, that's the idea. The thing has an annoying gasvent2 so would be impossible to get a gasvent3 on, so for that one recoil you'd pick another gun which you pay more for. So the Vindicator isn't too expensive in comparison because it doesn't burden you with an inferior gasvent.
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It doesn't say you can't upgrade. It says you can't add a gas-vent system on top of another gas-vent system, pretending that they stacks since the first is stock. Or, to be more precise, it says:
"Weapons already equipped with a built-in gas-vent system cannot be equipped with an additional gas-vent system."
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Are there rules for upgrading existing modifications though?
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Yes, in Arsenal. p.129, I think.
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Just talks about removing. Add to that that Gas-vents actively state they cannot be removed.
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Michael, only the gas vent accessory cannot be removed once installed (pg 322 SR4A). The mod has no such restriction and since all such things that come pre-installed on a weapon count as mods, you can just yank it out and replace it with a better system. (pg 152 Arsenal)
mtfeeney, the mini-gun rule, if you haven't already found it, is on pg 30 of Arsenal. Basically, mini-guns fire up to 15 rounds in FA mode with all that entails (recoil, damage bump, dodge mod).
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Hmm, so if it comes with gas-vent 2, you have to put gas-vent 3 on through modification and not as an accessory.
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That sounds horribly iffy, Mantis. So the one accessory that mentions it cannot be removed and that you can't add a second if it came with one can simply be removed as mod? I'm not really willing to buy that as explanation. If it were to actively mention it doesn't follow that rule, I'd go for it, but it's rather iffy to take the conclusion out of this absence.
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Well the modification rules do say you can remove any mod, even the ones that come stock on a weapon. Accessories also frequently follow slightly different rules than mods. Look at the silencer for example. The accessory gives a -4 to perception tests while the mod offers a -6. The sling accessory just makes it harder to drop the weapon while the mod offers concealability bonuses.
With the gas vent system I look at it this way. If I choose the accessory, I lose the barrel mount slot but none of my mod slots. If I choose the mod, I can keep the barrel mount accessory slot free but it uses up 2 of my mod slots. That is a pretty hefty price tag. The only things you are likely to use in the barrel mount accessory slot aside from gas vents is a silencer/suppressor or maybe a bayonet. There are all kinds of things you can use 2 mod slots for though, including other recoil systems. Having the accessory not removable balances that out and like I said, what else are you going to use the barrel mount for?
Keep in mind, in no way am I saying you can stack gas vent systems of any type. The rules are very specific on that one, but you can yank the gas vent mod, and only the mod, and replace it with a better system.
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Damn, I always assumed you can't get a barrel mod and a barrel accessory... stupid, stupid, stupid me. :'(
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I'll give you RAW because they do not use a reference to SR4a and instead rehash most of it, but I'm not sure about RAI. Removing a gasvent that it comes with and replacing it with a cheap external superior one really makes the low-gasvent weapons plain silly, since it's no longer an actual limitation.
So, if we go with it RAW, that means if Minigunning a weapon is an extra +200%, the Vindicator is utterly inferior in price to the Ares MP-LMG. On the other hand, it already has minigun functionality. Brings us back to the question: Would treating Minigun modification as HighVelocity in costs/threshold/availability be fair?
mtfeeney: You can have both a Suppressor and a Gas Vent through mods, but can only have one turned on at a time. So having both barrel-mod and barrel-accessory is possible.
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The mod would have to be replaced with a mod, right? Not the accessory?
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Not really. You remove the mod, then put on an accessory since without internal gasvent ready you're allowed to add an external one. Part of why I find it iffy.
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Yeah, I hear what you are saying but I've never found that too unbalancing. It is also the RAW for the gas vents so I guess play testing didn't find it so either (Don't tell me they didn't play test this. You'd shatter all my illusions :P) I find it difficult to get enough recoil comp on most weapons even doing it this way.
Now for the the question of balance on mini-guns. I think it would be fair. First, the mod requires 2 mod slots so is kind of expensive. Removing the gas vent system from the Ares-MP would not give you any slots back but I guess you could stick a gas vent accessory on it. It also requires a facility to install the high velocity mod and is a 30 threshold to achieve. Now, I'm not sure about the RAW on this, but we rule that those tool sizes are the minimum so you need a facility. A 30 threshold, especially with decreasing dice pool rule in effect is very hard to hit. Even without it, it will take quite some time to achieve. So once you are done you have an Ares MP LMG that fires 15 rounds and may or may not have a gas-vent 3 on it but you will have also used up 2 of your 6 mod slots. It will have cost you an additional 3000¥ as well. So 1500 for the gun, 3000 for the mod and 400 for the gas vent (or 2400 if you think it gets 6 barrels as part of the mod and each barrel needs the vent) and 100,000 for the facility to install it.
If you opted for the Vindicator, you can install the gas vent 3 as an accessory and still have all 6 of your mod slots for other mods. It will cost you just the 5500 for the gun and the 400 (or maybe 400 x 6 barrels depending on your GM) to have done so.
This makes the Ares cheaper in nuyen for the weapon but you still have to get the tools and you are down 2 mod slots over the vindicator. I'd opt for the vindicator at this point as mod slots are more valuable than money, or at least harder to come by.
And we haven't even touched the best damn LMG in the game yet. The Ingram White Knight with its weird gas vent 5 system and a price tag just 500 above the Ares MP-LMG, there really is no reason to look at any other LMG. Where else can you get an inherent 5(6 with stock) recoil in a weapon?
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Not sure if it's relavant anymore, but I think a good visual on the difference between the accessory version and the modification version would be treating the accessory as a recoil compensator, or muzzle brake, and the mod as an actual vent.
Gas Vent (Mod)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Custom_XD-40_V-10.jpg)
Gas Vent (Accessory)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/PGM-Hecate-seul-img_1008.jpg/800px-PGM-Hecate-seul-img_1008.jpg)
This one is probably a better example of a thermal suppressor, but it also heavily reduces felt recoil.
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Surprised you didn't use the classic gas vent mod - that which is on the Barret .50 BMG.
(http://www.50bmgstore.com/images/Barrett82A1.jpg)
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(http://www.50bmgstore.com/images/Barrett82A1.jpg)
Because I don't like barrets, the PGM however, I do. Anyway I couldn't off the bat find a picture of a match compensator, which is more along the lines of what the accessory is.
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Not sure if you can take those muzzle brakes off those rifles but if so, then your picture of the pistol is more how the accessory works in game while the brakes are more how the mod works. So ass backwards I think, though I suppose you could swap out the barrel easily enough for the pistol. Thanks for the cool pics though, especially the pistol.
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What? If it's a modification it's internal. And on the PGM I know you can un bolt the muzzle brake, which would make it an, albeit essential, accessory. Using logic we can know it works this way, even if the books say it's in reverse...
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Yeah that's what I meant (and thought I said). The real world shows these things working one way while the game rules flips that around (well except for the internal part on the gas vent mod. They got that right).
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I must have glossed over/auto corrected the flipping of the two when I read them.
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Rule of cool. Build a LMG as a minigun. Build 5 of them. Stick them on 5 drones that you have waiting on the egress route. Use them to either A) Scare the crap out of the SecTeam following you, or B) Turn them into a pink mist.
I think you should get some kind of Intimidation or Negotiation bonus if your side has actively spinning miniguns aimed in the general direction of who you are talking to...
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Uh you do. +2 for wielding a weapon. See pg 131 SR4A. Of course you get the same bonus for shoving a pistol in their face too and it won't cost nearly as much.
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Maybe we should run the rule on a 'per barrel basis'?
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Only +2? Maybe I'm used to D20 where +2 is not that wonderful, unless you have a lot of them, but it really seems like several actively spinning miniguns aimed at you shouldn't have the same bonus as a normal pistol to the face, unless that pistol had a bore you could stuff your fist in without touching sides.
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+2 in D&D is a 10% bonus. A +2 dice bonus, well I don't know the math but better than a 10% increase in your odds. 3 extra dice on average works out to 1 more hit. So yeah, it is worth more. But are you really negotiating with multiple miniguns spun up? Rational people will just agree with whatever you want and then do something about it after you turn the things off. As a GM I wouldn't call for a dice test in that situation unless the people you have them aimed at know something you don't know that will protect them.
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Dunno, was just babbling at this point. I was thinking of the party with the miniguns trying to talk a SecTeam into backing down peacefully, or paying them to just walk away and say they never saw them, though I guess it would depend on the GM.
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A pistol round to the face will kill you just as dead as a minigun, Vass.
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It's not the bullet with your name on it you have to worry about. It's the one addressed "To Whom It May Concern".
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It's not the bullet with your name on it you have to worry about. It's the one addressed "To Whom It May Concern".
... Now I want to make a spell that marks them "Return to Sender".
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The GE Vindicator (LMG), GE Vigilant (MMG) and GE Vanquisher (HMG) auto cannons
Are the minigun configuration version of LMGs, MMGs, & HMGs.
The Vindicator is the stats for This (http://youtu.be/NrDG4sPul8w?t=1m46s)
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Technically the Vigilant and Vanquisher are Main Guns, which cannot be wielded, only mounted. If they were mere Minigun versions, their damage wouldn't be by far superior to the normal machinegun ones. The Vindicator, on the other hand, comes with stats identical to other LMGs. Any MMG/HMG minigun version would reasonably use the 6P/-2 and 7P/-3 while using Full Burst rules (and possibly also a Simple Action to get to full speed, which one might demand for the vehicle main gun miniguns too).
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That's because you're not thinking clearly, Firebug. The MP-LMG can do good things for you as a man-portable gun. But the Vindicator really shines as a vehicle weapon or drone weapon. Once you get those barrels spinning, you can unleash molten death upon other vehicles like nobody's business. There's a reason why people put the same kind of gun on a chopper and let soldiers hose down jungle with them today. And when your target has some armor, that extra +15 DV can make all the difference in the world, especially since weapons mounted on vehicles don't bother with recoil.
And yes, that distinctive sound you were talking about? It is the same as if you hear a lightsaber hum in a Star Wars movie. You might as well start running now, because shit is about to go DOWN!
Except for the fact that FA fire doesnt apply to damage if you don`t penetrate the hardened armor. Also...no drone would be able to use this weapon for something else but suppressive fire, with thiskind of recoil...
So, Lets admit it. We just love to have miniguns :)
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Sichr, the +15 can help break through the hardened armor. And vehicle or drone mounted weapons don't suffer from recoil unless you houserule otherwise.
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Sichr, the +15 can help break through the hardened armor. And vehicle or drone mounted weapons don't suffer from recoil unless you houserule otherwise.
Nope. FullAuto burst doesn`t count against Hardened armor. RAW. It applies Only if base damage exceeds the armor.
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DV modifiers of bursts don't apply when comparing to armor rating. This would then apply for Vehicle (Damage vs no damage), Hardened (Damage vs no damage), Immunity (see Hardened) and normal (Normal vs Stun).
Yes the GM has to decide whether vehicles suffer from recoil. But it's not a houserule. It's an optional rule.
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Sichr, the +15 can help break through the hardened armor. And vehicle or drone mounted weapons don't suffer from recoil unless you houserule otherwise.
Nope. FullAuto burst doesn`t count against Hardened armor. RAW. It applies Only if base damage exceeds the armor.
FYI
NARROWBURSTS
Narrow bursts cause more damage to the target. Increase the attack’s DV by +2. Note that
this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating.
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OK, now I'm confused. The page Sichr posted states the narrow burst DV modifier does not count when trying to punch through hardened armour. However, the very next page, under Long and Full bursts lacks this note (pg 154 SR4A). Furthermore, vehicles say that the modified DV must exceed the vehicle armour to punch through (pg. 167 SR4A). The hardened armour power has the same notation, modified DV must exceed modified armour value. (pg 295 SR4A)
So long or full bursts can punch through vehicle/hardened armour so long as they help modify the DV higher than the armour? This would be a change from previous editions where it was only successes + ammo type + base damage to punch through. It would also mean only the narrow burst DV modifier is not counted when comparing armour. Is this correct?
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Long Burst and Full Bursts simply do not repeat every detail, they only list where they differ from Short Bursts. Just like how Long Bursts don't list their recoil is cumulative, since Short Bursts already list that.
Modified DV includes things such as Called Shot, ammo types and net hits.
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it speaks of Narrow bursts, so it doesnt needed to be mentioned specificaly at every fire mode:
attributes of the burst fire you need to answer one by one:
1. how many bullets?
2. Narrow or wide?
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Long Burst and Full Bursts simply do not repeat every detail, they only list where they differ from Short Bursts. Just like how Long Bursts don't list their recoil is cumulative, since Short Bursts already list that.
Modified DV includes things such as Called Shot, ammo types and net hits.
you beat me on this :D
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OK. Good, then I haven't been doing this wrong all this time. Looking at the rules, I had always assumed that it was a case of not needing to mention the same rule multiple times but there is frequently some confusion about that on these boards. See threads like the one on Specific trumps General for some examples. Just wanted to make sure this wasn't a case of something like that.
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I have a feeling this discussion ain`t over :)
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A pointless LMG is one without a bayonet. ;D
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Alright, what dumbass gave Mungo a Vindicator with melee hardening?
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Alright, what dumbass gave Mungo a Vindicator with melee hardening?
Mungo dexxozed itz frum da Enemy Streat Salami an' den mad itz hiz ownz! An datz whi Mungo uzez datacable fer da GunnyLinxxorz.
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A pointless LMG is one without a bayonet. ;D
And you know what minigun with byonet is?
The blender.
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It slices it dices, it makes julienne fries!
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Great... Now I'm imagining a troll with a minigun, and he's mounted a bayonet on each of the barrels... Just this big shit eating grin on his face. "Ammo ain't a problem, I just need to get close." Barrels spin up in that ominous whine...
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did some research on the 'Pointless LMG'
Firstly (as some of you have stated) Its a damn mini-gun, so clearly your volume of fire is going to be more. Sure the negative connotation is that it uses more bullets in a burst or in suppressing fire, but that's also more targets / object to get chewed up by the little monster.
That brings me to my second point...as per rules / guidelines for a mini-gun: (Arsenal book, Pg.30) "Mini-guns impose a -14 dice pool modifier on the attack roll. A narrow burst applies a +14 DV modifier to the attack, while a wide burst applies a -14 dice pool modifier to the defenders dice pool."
I would argue that this weapon is not pointless at all and I can understand why you have to dish out the extra cred. I'm not saying every street sam should walk around with one, however, if you have a turret on a vehicle and the opportunity to...why wouldn't you?
Heres a cool guy video showing SWWC and a minigun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F2OX7xtSZo
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the thing i'm not sure about is that it just says a -14 dice pool modifier. it doesn't say it is recoil.
that means you're gonna need like agi 5, smartlink (+2) and heavy weaps 6 (8:miniguns) to even get 1 dice to throw at that test.
Or am i just being daft and reading it wrong?
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It's a shortened version of rules since it's in a sidebar, it follows the default "Bullets-1 Recoil".
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fair enough! yeah it'd make for a fairly healthy vehicle weapon then :-)
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Christ. XD I started this thread almost a month ago, and I got my answer on the first page. What have you all been discussing for the next four pages? A huge discussion on gas vents, it seems. XP
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That, and blenders. :P
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That, and blenders. :P
"Today on 'Will It Blend', Mungo!" "Ah donn lahk dis."
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That, and blenders. :P
"Today on 'Will It Blend', Mungo!" "Ah donn lahk dis."
We're trying to blend Mungo?
We're going to need a bigger blender.
Nope, bigger than that.
Bigger.
Yeah, that should about do it.