Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: phydaux42 on <06-19-13/1126:26>
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As I understand it the Human Meta-Human Vampric Virus is highly contagous. It turns humans into ghouls, elves into banshees, dwarves into goblins, trolls into windigos and orcs into something else that I forget right now.
So if the Vampric Virus turns metahumans into these things, where do actual vampires come from?
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Different strain of the virus. The first of ghouls you, if you survive. Trolls ghouls are best run from. The second strain makes you a vampire based on meta-type.
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Strain 1:
Human - Vampire
Elf - Banshee
Ork - Wendigo
Dwarf - Goblin
Troll - Dzoo-No-Qua
Strain 1b:
Human - Nosferatu
Troll - Mutaqua
The other metatypes are killed by this strain
Strain 2:
Human - Loup-Garou
Elf - Harvester
Ork - Grendel
Dwarf - Gnawer
Troll - Formoraiq
Sasquatch - Bandersnatch (this is the only strain which infects sasquatches)
Strain 3:
Human - Ghoul
Elf - Ghoul
Ork - Ghoul
Dwarf - Ghoul
Troll - Ghoul
And then there are four variants of strain 1 which turns an infected human into an abat, amalanhig, sukuyan or penanggalan. The other metatypes are still turned into the normal types of strain 1 (at least I remember it that way).
There are also three variants of strain 3 which turns all metatypes into sasabonsam, gaki or busaw.
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Strain 1b:
Human - Nosferatu
Troll - Mutaqua
The other metatypes are killed by this strain
That we know of.
Strain 2:
Sasquatch - Bandersnatch (this is the only strain which infects sasquatches)
Yeah, I got shot down with my notion of Strain 1 for sasquatches a few years ago. There's always next time, though....
I really need a moustache that I can twirl.
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Why not just make a Strain IV, Patrick?
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I'm trying to simplify things. HMHVV already has more strains than the Bears locker room at season's end; I don't think it needs another.
Besides, how would that help my moustache-twirling?
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Well obviously strain IV causes the infected to grow massive glorious luxurious handlebar moustaches.
EDIT: And maybe there could be some vampire stuff in there too.
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You guys should really count your blessings that John Dunn managed to talk me down from a few things back when we were getting Running Wild put together....
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You guys should really count your blessings that John Dunn managed to talk me down from a few things back when we were getting Running Wild put together....
I thought strain 1 looked more like this:
Human - Vampire
Elf - Vampire or Banshee
Orc - Vampire or Wendigo
Dwarf - Vampire or Goblin
Troll - Vampire or Dzoo-Noo-Qua
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Strain 1 is a bugger, but this reminds me that I've got to get the basic mechanic for other-than-humans becoming vampires worked out. It's pretty rare, maybe as rare as Bruckner-Langer, but I'm not quite sure how to model it in game terms. Yet.
But I think the original presentation, with a footnote saying, "You might turn into a vampire anyway, if the virus is feeling out-of-sorts or particularly bastardly," would probably suffice.
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So does that make you the one we need to thank for HMHVV being close to unresistible and very easily transmitted in 4th ed?
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Also the one who tried to fix it. Click the link in his sig. ;)
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So, when do we see the Bio-Warfare Model Strain that affects DRAGONS?
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So does that make you the one we need to thank for HMHVV being close to unresistible and very easily transmitted in 4th ed?
No, I'm the one trying to clean that up.
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Don't clean it up. Just make HMHVV-infected PCs less likely to be killed on sight by the entire world population.
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Strain 1A:
Human - Nosferatu
Troll - Mutaqua
The other metatypes are killed by this strain
I was under the impression after reading through RW, that other metatypes (dwarves, at least) not killed by 1A turned into something akin to vampires.
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So does that make you the one we need to thank for HMHVV being close to unresistible and very easily transmitted in 4th ed?
No, I'm the one trying to clean that up.
Well thank you then. Thank you very much. The general concept of HMHVV creating "undead" is great, but the execution kind of messed up the way they could be used in games since they became PC killers.
@Novacrane: Runner's Companion says that HMHVV I in dwarves creates goblins.
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Oh..so Mr. Goodman is the one responsible for trying to keep Krieger Strain from being the Ghoul Apocalypse? I look forward
to seeing how the rules are written to make it so there is SOME means of fighting Ghouls and not becoming one eventually.
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I am sure that I am missing a lot of the background info, so please tell where I am wrong.
The strain is very infectious. What stops intelligent ghouls from creating a swarm of feral ghoul to attack specific areas of the barrens and infecting a lot of people. This could be repeated in different spot of a town to mess up the armed forces in presence.
OR they find a way to travel to small villages and take them over, slowly extending their presence until they take over the world...
I guess that this will depend on the proportion of feral to intelligent ghouls (and other infected) and if they fail a major ghoul hunt will be started...
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Nukes. Nukes stop that. Smaller arms would work, too, but nukes for certain.
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Or napalm if you want to be subtle. I loved the smell of charred ghoul in the morning.
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The following assumes at least half sentient ghouls:
For one thing, ghouls are still human. Yes, they have a craving for dead meat. No, this doesn't mean that they're comfortable with that. Most people also don't like considering genocide on a grand scale. It is entirely plausible that a high majority of ghouls just want to be left alone and gnaw on a few fingers once in a while, when the craving gets too strong.
Also: Why would you want to create more of the suffering you went through? Why would you want to inflict that horrible pain of transformation on anyone? Probably not.
Also, this wouldn't further your supply of dead meat very much.
There's another thing to consinder, and I'm going on dangerous RL terrain here, so let me preface the following with the fact that I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. If I do so by accident, I want to apologize.
AIDS victims who know of their condition usually don't go around and stick syringes with their blood in unassuming people. This is a decidedly less contagious condition, and they're still often singled out by society at large.
Yes, the ghoul strain of HMHVV is too contagious RAW. It's a recipe for apocalypse. Patrick's unofficial errata however fix the vector to injection and lower the power level. IF infected, it's still stupid hard to resist (but not impossible anymore), but to actually BE infected requires a ghoul attacking you, doing damage or slavering into your mouth or mucous membranes.
With RAW, you better go ghoul hunting with chemically sealed MilSpec armor with internal air tanks.
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For one thing, ghouls are still human. Yes, they have a craving for dead meat. No, this doesn't mean that they're comfortable with that. Most people also don't like considering genocide on a grand scale. It is entirely plausible that a high majority of ghouls just want to be left alone and gnaw on a few fingers once in a while, when the craving gets too strong.
Fair point... I have been assuming that their psychee was changed with the infectious... That was a stupid assumption :)
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To a degree it is. But even feral ghouls don't try to propagate their infection, they try to eat your face off, and if you get out alive, you're infected by accident.
Yes, the craving is there. It might even drive a ghoul insane to a point where he's pondering world domination plans. But yeah, those guys usually end up with bullets in their heads. The sixth world pretty much sucks for everyone, more so for ghouls.
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Well I had a quick look at the unofficial errata by Mr. Goodman. As far as fighting ghouls goes, changing the vector of type 2&3 to Injection means that if you armor up you can avoid it (can't inject you with teeth and claws if they never penetrate the armor) until you're beaten down.
Power and penetration are both lowered, so it's possible (albeit still difficult) to resist even they do sink their claws into you.
A normal wageslave is still hosed if they run into one, but that's appropriate. Your average runner now has a chance against them even if they get close. Ghouls have gone from “Oh god everyone run, it's a ghoul. What did we do to piss off the GM?” to something you can actually include in game and have the players take on (with an appropriate amount of caution).
Another point against the ghoul apocalypse is that intelligent ghouls know that a ghoul apocalypse results in them all dying of starvation. Feral ghouls on the other hand might not take kindly to other ghouls trying to direct them or push them around. Herding wet cats comes to mind. Feral ghouls are very dangerous yes, but they're also dumb, and mankind has been killing creatures like that for all of recorded history. We're pretty good at it, and our tools have gotten better and better.
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Another point against the ghoul apocalypse is that intelligent ghouls know that a ghoul apocalypse results in them all dying of starvation.
Not entirely correct. Nothing stops Bob Ghoul from eating his dead chummer Mike Ghoul. But yeah, the competition is higher ;)
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Hmm seems ghouls still count as metahuman, which indeed means they can feed on one another. Interesting. Would not have thought that.
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So does that make you the one we need to thank for HMHVV being close to unresistible and very easily transmitted in 4th ed?
No, I'm the one trying to clean that up.
Why has it to be cleaned up (true question here)? Wasn't HMHVV created to be dangerous and something PCs should not mess with?
Doubled with the fact that it could only infect people if only they were drained with the power, to 0 Essence, I don't think it was broken.
So why?
(Edit; think you were actually talking about Strain III. But if I remember well, you had to spend time for risking infection by respiring it and so on?)
Don't clean it up. Just make HMHVV-infected PCs less likely to be killed on sight by the entire world population.
Again, apart of some population fringes and misfits, who would be kind to some "natural predator" of your own kind?
They drain people to live. you can argue that this is not their fault, but still, people will mostly consider them as potential dangers and parasites, and as such, will be prone to kill them with fire and nasty things.
What stops intelligent ghouls from creating a swarm of feral ghoul to attack specific areas of the barrens and infecting a lot of people. This could be repeated in different spot of a town to mess up the armed forces in presence.
Nukes. Dragons. Ordo Maximus (Vampires would not let lowly ghouls take them over). And for what they are worth, human (as they are finely ingenious to find creative and efficient ways to kill each others with everything at hand, be it wood, chemical and biologic substances, or laws of physics
Also: Why would you want to create more of the suffering you went through? Why would you want to inflict that horrible pain of transformation on anyone? Probably not.
Well, some people react in the opposite sense. "Why me and no the others? Let's share the pain!".
But they are mostly psychopaths I guess.
With RAW, you better go ghoul hunting with chemically sealed MilSpec armor with internal air tanks.
Not so bad, if the least redneck could go after them, they would not last for long, as there are wages on them.
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You forgot one
Type 2
Koala-> Drop bear
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Don't clean it up. Just make HMHVV-infected PCs less likely to be killed on sight by the entire world population.
Actually it would be pretty awesome if it would take the entire world population to kill you. :)
You'd be the number one cause of death in the world. The uber antideluvion of vampires, the first in the strain. All the strains would have originated from you!
Okay, okay, I know I'm just being silly... :-\
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So does that make you the one we need to thank for HMHVV being close to unresistible and very easily transmitted in 4th ed?
No, I'm the one trying to clean that up.
Why has it to be cleaned up (true question here)? Wasn't HMHVV created to be dangerous and something PCs should not mess with?
Doubled with the fact that it could only infect people if only they were drained with the power, to 0 Essence, I don't think it was broken.
So why?
(Edit; think you were actually talking about Strain III. But if I remember well, you had to spend time for risking infection by respiring it and so on?)
Only strain 1, the vampire proper, requires them to drain your essence before you can be infected.
Strain 2 and 3, 3 being the one which creates ghouls, has the original (IE official) vector being contact. This means unless you were in a chem-sealed suit of some sort all the ghoul had to do was touch you. And with Power 8, Pen -3, and the note that there's no actual medicine that can give a dice pool bonus you really had no reasonable way to resist.
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Well, I knew for contact for the other strains (at first thought they were speaking about strain I, thus my question)
and as I remember contact doesn't mean it go though clothes easily. It has to touch your skin.
But indeed I forgot about penetration (which was actually -6, for both strain II and III. And for Strain II having Power 13, you should less care risk of becoming a ghoul than a werewolf or things like that. And chem seal won't help with such penetration...)
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Chem Seal does indeed help.
Penetration has nothing to do with armor, it's against helpful medications and filter systems.
But Contact vector doesn't mean it has to touch your skin.
It means that a ghoul can cough in your general direction and poof, you're one, too.
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Chem Seal does indeed help.
Penetration has nothing to do with armor, it's against helpful medications and filter systems.
But Contact vector doesn't mean it has to touch your skin.
It means that a ghoul can cough in your general direction and poof, you're one, too.
P.136 Augmentations says:
Diseases spread by contact must touch the target’s skin*. A chemical seal (see p. 317, SR4) offers complete protection unless
breached.
* this is also stated for toxins in SR4A (but I don't have US version there)
Penetration
Similar to Armor Penetration for weapons, a disease or pathogen’s Penetration rating affects the rating of any protective system used to defend against it, including pharmaceuticals.
If a chem seal is not a protective system, what is it? (actually, Augmentations states later "protective systems, implants, medications") It doesn't state it has to be internal. Actual, Seven-7 which was developped to bypass the most regular chem protections, has a Penetration of -2.
So, no, you won't become a ghoul because of that as indeed, sneeze spits can go as far as 5 meters, but dispersion being what it is, you don't really risk a contact if not closer. And again, if you don't inhale it or aren't in direct contact (skin;)) with it, it is not a problem (while you would like not bring this so nice shirt to the laundry but burn it instead...).
And as for Penetration for HMHVV, as it is a retrovirus, it is very small (usually, some have capside and external membranes that make them bigger and help them somewhat to be more resistant to adverse conditions or more virulent, something of a trade, but HMHVV seems to have best of both world, for our displeasure), so it makes sense it is able to bypass regular chemical protection.
Most gloves are for example not adapted when you work in P3/P4 level biolab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosafety_level)
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First, ask your self how a virus might be able to 'touch your skin' (meaning ANY exposed bit of skin). Droplet infection, to give you one example. I.e. a ghoul coughing in your general direction in a close enough vicinity (such as when he tries to eat your head off).
Second, the description for a chem seal states, that it "provides complete protection against contact and inhalation chemicals" (SR4A, p. 327). True. A virus is not a chemical, but the resistances work really similar. In fact, the only HAZMAT suit in the game (Mitsuhama EE Suit) has in its description that it's "worn by those who must deal directly with [...] chemical or biological agents" (Arsenal, p. 55), but in the next sentence only states that it "protects against chemicals (full chemical seal), heat and fire (Fire Resistance 3) and radiation (Radiaton Shield 6)". No word about viruses or other biological threats anymore. I chose to infer from that, that a chemical seal indeed protects against them.
Now, how would you calculate "Complete Protection minus 6"?
And honestly, it is not necessary to pump up the threat of a ghoulpocalypse even more ;)
Personally, I use Patrick's fixed rules if I ever use ghouls in my game, with the additional limitation that only a ghoul of the same metatype can infect you. This is by far dangerous enough.
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First, ask your self how a virus might be able to 'touch your skin' (meaning ANY exposed bit of skin). Droplet infection, to give you one example. I.e. a ghoul coughing in your general direction in a close enough vicinity (such as when he tries to eat your head off).
That could also be spits, blood, or any biological material, or sweat from the infected touching you (as far as we know, virus is in every parts of the body). Skin contact would do. So it is not really limitative. And actually, I know that pretty well, bacteriology/virology and pharmaceuticals are some of the things I make a living from.
Second, the description for a chem seal states, that it "provides complete protection against contact and inhalation chemicals" (SR4A, p. 327). True. A virus is not a chemical, but the resistances work really similar.
Well, I agree with that. Still, complete is not a number, and almost everything else in the game work by them.
But even if it is absolute protection (since I admit that calculating "Complete Protection minus 6" is not easy;)), it means it works only for hazmat. Other chemical protections would not work (as their rating is so inferior to penetration).
And honestly, it is not necessary to pump up the threat of a ghoulpocalypse even more ;)
Risk? The risk is more a humanocaplypse, IMHO. Most ghouls are ferals. And even when they are not, we are a lot smarter, and a lot more dangerous than them. They are threats on the same level than wolves. You don't want to be run by a pack of these when not armed and alone and hurt. And when they are hungry. Else, they will probably won't be dangerous enough in comparison of you to them.
Personally, I use Patrick's fixed rules if I ever use ghouls in my game, with the additional limitation that only a ghoul of the same metatype can infect you. This is by far dangerous enough.
Unless you do the same for other strains, that would not really stand in the logic of the game, that state that a strain is virulent intermetatypes (only effects changing). Unless you had more explanations.
But why not using them as they are. Do you think bounties are so high for the only sake of them being easy prey not dangerous to deal with?
When it comes to ghouls, it is mostly because of numbers and flaws like this one.
I really don't think that was broken from the start. HMHVV is done to be the bogeyman of viruses. Not your common flu. At least, for me, and in fluff. Yeah, it can feel dangerous. Sometimes, players should not need to meet a dragon, an IE or an AI to feel like a B52 load of drek carpet bombed the fan. There are "smaller" things (literaly or not) which should be a threat as well.
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That could also be spits, blood, or any biological material, or sweat from the infected touching you (as far as we know, virus is in every parts of the body). Skin contact would do. So it is not really limitative. And actually, I know that pretty well, bacteriology/virology and pharmaceuticals are some of the things I make a living from.
So we are d'accord then on this matter ;)
Other chemical protections would not work (as their rating is so inferior to penetration).
Yes. Chemical Protection is another armor addon, and it would be reduced by the Penetration of the virus.
In my opinion, the Chemical Seal however (which is, in any case, only available for full body armor, like MilSpec, e.g.) does exactly the same as described under the EE Suit's entry.
Unless you do the same for other strains, that would not really stand in the logic of the game, that state that a strain is virulent intermetatypes (only effects changing). Unless you had more explanations.
I do ;) Personal preference and a weak interpretation of the line "Note that a character can only be infected by an HMHVV strain that targets their particular metatype—attempts to infect characters of a different metavariant automatically fail, though the victim may become an unwitting carrier" (Runner's Companion, p. 82).
I know that this isn't meant this way, but that's how I run it :)
But why not using them as they are. Do you think bounties are so high for the only sake of them being easy prey not dangerous to deal with?
When it comes to ghouls, it is mostly because of numbers and flaws like this one.
I really don't think that was broken from the start. HMHVV is done to be the bogeyman of viruses. Not your common flu. At least, for me, and in fluff. Yeah, it can feel dangerous. Sometimes, players should not need to meet a dragon, an IE or an AI to feel like a B52 load of drek carpet bombed the fan. There are "smaller" things (literaly or not) which should be a threat as well.
Because as they are, they are not a mere threat to player characters. If you ever use the virus (and let's admit it, feral ghouls are really nice opponents ... not too many moral questions, just survival, conveniently stupid and really horrible), it will simply kill every player character or turn them into ghouls. There is no other outcome. They may survive if you let them use hand of god and burn edge, but they will end up as a ghoul invariably.
Here's the math, with a Body-maxed troll:
A troll with Body 11+Suprathyroid gland+pathogenic resistance+nephritic screen 4 rolls 17 dice (penetration included) and has to beat a target number of 8, for just the first test of ten.
Why doesn't he use O-cells, Zeta-Interferon or antivirals you ask? Because they don't work. RC states very explicitly on p. 82 that no "inoculations or antiviral agent has been developed which provides any bonus or protection against any species of HMHVV". Thus, O-cell nanites, which use existing databases for their wondrous workings don't work either.
The only thing that works is a mage who casts cure disease on a high power level, to add dice to this test (7, with 7 successes is a nice number for this troll here).
To have a decent chance of beating the odds, you need to have 30 dice in a test that's basically only body (remember, protective stuff gets reduced by 6, so to reach the 24 dice for 8 hits, you need to have 30 in the first place).
You need to roll at least 10 tests. If you fail 1! of these tests by even 1 hit, congratulations, you're now a ghoul. But at least you saved some essence and didn't die ... if that's preferable to dying, that is.
And how many PCs at your table are that optimized troll? ;)
No, thanks. I prefer threats that my players have a chance of more than a snowflake in hell to survive. :)
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Bit of a nitpick, but that Troll would have 11 Body after the Suprathyroid Gland added its +1, standard maximum is 10. Considering the dearth of things that can actually help out with that resistance and the Penetration, even that Troll is unlikely to see more than 10 dice for that test.
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Factored in, of course he has exceptional attribute. :D
If you want, SURGE him for a base BOD of 12. It doesn't change the fact that this is not the average PC ;)
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Factored in, of course he has exceptional attribute. :D
If you want, SURGE him for a base BOD of 12. It doesn't change the fact that this is not the average PC ;)
Didn't think of those, but then I've only built one character with SURGE, so I tend to forget about it, and I haven't used Exceptional Attribute since back in SR3 and combining it with Bonus Attribute Point.
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Yeah; I know. ::) This is Catalyst's product now, not FASA. But I'm a lazy GM willing to use the Earthdawn material for background. So the original source/makers of HMHVV is still a major factor for me. Dunk's will stated he wanted recognition of ghouls as sapients and dangled the bait for a cheap alternative food-source so said ghouls wouldn't have to continue to be dependant on Tanamous and other criminal organizations for flesh. 8)
'World War Z' ain't recommended as a plot source. :D
You'd be the number one cause of death in the world. The uber antideluvion of vampires, the first in the strain. All the strains would have originated from you!
Okay, okay, I know I'm just being silly... :-\
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Now-now, no treading on World-of-Darkness ;)
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There's also genetic optimization, but really Bannockburn's math stands. Assume that troll has massive edge as well while we're at it. He still can't get the necessary dicepool.
The question we really need to ask is "Were ghouls meant to be a threat of that level?" Given their depiction in stories/lore/etc and given how common they are, I'd say no. Fluff and crunch should be in the same ballpark.
I'm fine with the power and penetration of type 2 because they're rare and supposed to be much more dangerous than ghouls, same with the Vampires (and if you ever get drained to essence 0 by a vampire you're dead anyway right?).
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HMHVV III is the most virulent form of the virus, and it can be spread with a bite, a scratch, even a mere touch if you’re unlucky enough to have an open wound.
I tend to use this quote, rather than getting bent out of shape with the literal interpretation of the mechanics.
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I am ok with the crunch, I just meant you are not be exposed in first place. First things ranger do when they have to control the spread of a predator or pick some specimen for study is not going to fight it hand to hand. They set traps and hides and watch for them from positions they are not vulnerable to it. Granted a tiger or puma has a lot more movement ability than ghouls. And are a lot less weak from inner flaws (nearly no essence left ? Self harming behavior, like going outside without caring for danger -just like addicts)
So indeed, if you want to play Aliens, better have a reinforced Hazmat and firethrowers, WP grenades (by belts) and loads of ammo for your minigun. They have to come in contact. Movement detectors. Spells. Night vision. Perception enhancement. Plus reaction boosts. I don't think the thing would even be able to get in contact. Because if you are not stupid, you are not going alone (ok, not going is also a good alternative method;)).
In other cases, when you are smarter than that, well, you don't fuck with them in inapropriate ways.
If you take it that way (humans tend to learn quickly how not to be a snack for critters, because if not, they end being snacks and that is uncool), they are only a medium threat. Potentialy vastly more, but that is very latent and very dependant of conditions. I wonder why some crazy terrorist never released some in a railroad station at noon in a capital (in UV protective suits, they don't need to see really, so that would be ok, given you happen to make them wear it. Or else use UV protective "paint", the one for medical cases, in 1 cm layers. Snowghouls. On Seattle, on Christmas.). THAT, would be nasty. Crashing the matrix is for sissies;)
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HMHVV III is the most virulent form of the virus, and it can be spread with a bite, a scratch, even a mere touch if you’re unlucky enough to have an open wound.
I tend to use this quote, rather than getting bent out of shape with the literal interpretation of the mechanics.
That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.
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HMHVV III is the most virulent form of the virus, and it can be spread with a bite, a scratch, even a mere touch if you’re unlucky enough to have an open wound.
I tend to use this quote, rather than getting bent out of shape with the literal interpretation of the mechanics.
That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.
Have you considered that's why I wrote the errata? As I said somewhere else, it might say "unofficial" on the link, but it's as real and "official" as it gets.
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Heck you don't even need to be in his presence. Ghoul opens door. Twenty minutes later random dude touches same doornob. Boom. Ghoul.
That would leave the question of how long the virus can survive outside the host (it varies) but given that it's touch vector probably a fair amount of time.
Boomstick. I'm not sure what/who you're responding to (or what you mean by "I just meant you are not be exposed in first place."). It seems to be my comment about fluff meeting crunch. Are you suggesting that the crunch is good but the fluff needs to be changed?
Consider that scenario you're painting. Do you always know when you're going to run into a particular danger? You must have an interesting Game Master. Should I grab my minigun and milspec armor, cause I'm going to Redmond today and I might possibly maybe run into a ghoul. That makes total sense.
If Ghouls are effectively Aliens then why do they have their own nation and live in cities? Why haven't they been wiped out. Also feral doesn't mean suicidal or uncaring of danger. Their spread isn't "really" being controlled.
EDIT: Mr. Goodman. Just wanted to check as I've only recently gotten into the Shadowrun RPG (used to read a bunch of the books). Do they basically not do official errata? I've never seen any beyond the unofficial stuff on this forum.
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being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.
Whoa, ghoul by association? Hehe....
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HMHVV III is the most virulent form of the virus, and it can be spread with a bite, a scratch, even a mere touch if you’re unlucky enough to have an open wound.
I tend to use this quote, rather than getting bent out of shape with the literal interpretation of the mechanics.
That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.
Have you considered that's why I wrote the errata? As I said somewhere else, it might say "unofficial" on the link, but it's as real and "official" as it gets.
Hopefully, your unofficial stuff becomes official in the new edition. Otherwise, most GMs will refuse to acknowledge it simply because it is not "official".
It would be best for the Power to be lower for the virus than even in your unofficial stuff though (just by 1 or 2).
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Have you considered that's why I wrote the errata? As I said somewhere else, it might say "unofficial" on the link, but it's as real and "official" as it gets.
Aren't you fan of snow ghouls? I would call them Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donder, Blitzen and Rudolph and make them pull a sleigh (with additional firepower;))
Actually, I find the errata idea of getting them the "injection" vector quite a good balance, as contact could come as a little hardcore, but I would have been fine in this case with keeping the same penetration and power. 6 and -3 is "very weak". You might not see any ork or troll bred ghoul, except the weakest among them. Ok, maybe the special rules for infections are not so pretty with HMHVV. But basically power 6 makes it not a lot more contagious than a flu, if I remember correctly. Would not make it scary, just by looking at the number. Actually, I believe it would be better to have more power and to have the disease to kill the victim by full essence drain instead of having to lose 1 point of Essence (but making it consume 0.5 or 0.25 instead of 0.1 of Essence by power point left). Players are very clingy when it comes to their Essence. It comes at even more dangerous because your character doesn't become a thing, it is just spoiled.
Heck you don't even need to be in his presence. Ghoul opens door. Twenty minutes later random dude touches same doornob. Boom. Ghoul.
That would leave the question of how long the virus can survive outside the host (it varies) but given that it's touch vector probably a fair amount of time.
Not necessary. Contact could really be contact coming from a warm body by mean of dermal cells or whatever fluid exhudating but having a very short lifespan outside of these.
Boomstick. I'm not sure what/who you're responding to
A little to everyone
(or what you mean by "I just meant you are not be exposed in first place.").
because I meant "I just meant you are not to be exposed in the first place", forgot "to". Actually, you should not come close to a ghoul, for you have not to use your brains against your own survival;)
It seems to be my comment about fluff meeting crunch. Are you suggesting that the crunch is good but the fluff needs to be changed?
I think both are fine. Just that, as I stated then, usually they are not smart critters, and we are their predators. So the threat is relative, given the circumstances. Same scenario as most highly virulent diseases. Say Ebola. Highly deadly. But usually you only find it in the deep Africa, so one guy die but does not contaminate whole regions It is not found on central park where in a matter of days it would cause epidemic spread and lots of deaths.. Here, with ghouls, we are the barrage, in some way.
Consider that scenario you're painting. Do you always know when you're going to run into a particular danger? You must have an interesting Game Master. Should I grab my minigun and milspec armor, cause I'm going to Redmond today and I might possibly maybe run into a ghoul. That makes total sense.
You're going to Redmond, that won't be wasted;)
I am not sure if there are danger behind the next door. But that's why I take precautions. And if I was aware their could be ghouls (and that should be something which is known among people. Even because they will see it when it is not here), then I would take precautions over precautions.
And not go in the dark building at night where there are bizarre noises. Because I am a runner, not a stupid horror flick next victim.
If Ghouls are effectively Aliens then why do they have their own nation and live in cities?
There could be ethical matter since some are sentient so some people would not appreciate a wipe move, but I am actually very surprised no one tried to nuke them anonymously. Or that winternight didn't do the move since they should look at them as part of the bad things on Earth. For the occasion, would I be one of them, I would not have restricted the nuke to "nice EMP without collateral damage" mode.
Also feral doesn't mean suicidal or uncaring of danger. Their spread isn't "really" being controlled.
Feral don't. But it is stated that approaching Zero Essence make them act diregarding of their own good apart of the Essence feeding part. No more social inhibitions. No more "you are my daughter, I can't hurt you". No more "I would not attack humans because I am one". Just biting and tearing into something.
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That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.
You say house rule, I say oddly placed text for GM discernment.
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That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.
You say house rule, I say oddly placed text for GM discernment.
If it is not official, then it is a house rule.
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Actually, I find the errata idea of getting them the "injection" vector quite a good balance, as contact could come as a little hardcore, but I would have been fine in this case with keeping the same penetration and power. 6 and -3 is "very weak". You might not see any ork or troll bred ghoul, except the weakest among them. Ok, maybe the special rules for infections are not so pretty with HMHVV. But basically power 6 makes it not a lot more contagious than a flu, if I remember correctly.
Do you actually know how the whole disease resistance HMHVV thing works? Unless you get enough hits on your dice to reduce the power to 0 you fail, and loose 0.1 essence. Any power not removed via hits is added to the next test until you run through the minimum number of rolls (for ghoulies it's 10 rolls minimum).
Ex: You're hit. Tomorrow you roll 5 hits against the power of 8. Not enough, you loose 0.1 essence. Tomorrow you have to roll against power 11, 8+3(from yesterday). You repeat this process 10 times. After the 10th time you stop adding new power, but keep rolling until you reduce it to 0. If before that happens you fail 10 times (loosing 1 point of essence) then stop worrying, you're a ghoul. That means you need a total of either 80 or 60 hits to be cured completely.
Even better, if you somehow survive and later on are unlucky enough to get re-infected you don't start counting up to 1 essence from zero, you pick up where you left off before. Did you eke through with 0.8 essence loss last time? Well this time you get two failures before you become a ghoul.
Your average troll has a bod of 7 and your average ork has a nice big 6. Pharmaceuticals are useless and everything else provides 3 less dice bonus. Even with the unofficial errata I think you'll see plenty of non-weak troll and ork ghouls out there. The big thing is changing the vector.
With a little luck and the ability to get to high end help a healthy guy might survive. Everyone else still needs a miracle, but it's actually possible mathematically.
(Side note Influenza has a power of 2, 0 pen, and can be treated by pharmaceuticals. And the penalty for failure is a point or two of stun which can be recovered in an hour or two of rest, and some disorientation. It does however have a slightly quicker/longer speed though)
Not necessary. Contact could really be contact coming from a warm body by mean of dermal cells or whatever fluid exudating but having a very short lifespan outside of these.
That' would be the reason why I said “That would leave the question.” It's not really specified since the rules don't get that granular (thank god).
If you go anywhere with millspec armor and a minigun you're going to get into a fight with someone that's for sure.
Yea you're right, you shouldn't get up close and personal with a ghoul. Do you always have the choice? Frack no.
And not go in the dark building at night where there are bizarre noises. Because I am a runner, not a stupid horror flick next victim.
And thus refusing to complete the mission, resulting in worsening your rep and not getting paid. Or maybe that means you're caught by the Mafia/Ares/Area Boys hit squad out in the open. Or maybe you don't hear any noises because you failed your perception roll. Or maybe it isn't the sort of place where you would expect a ghoul. Or maybe you're targeted by a Tanamous (Sp) ghould looking for dinner/parts. Or maybe the ghouls come to you while you're in the shower/out to a movie/ clubbing. Or one of a billion scenarios where you don't know it's coming.
You're making the assumption that you have the situation totally under control at all times. Being a runner means you have to take risks.
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That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.
You say house rule, I say oddly placed text for GM discernment.
If it is not official, then it is a house rule.
You do know that I'm the one writing all of this for the game at the moment, right? At this point in time, in fact, I am the only one working on it. (This is less an indication of how awesome I am than it is a reflection that I'm the only one who has a major interest in it, so I get to work on it by myself much of the time; this could change tomorrow if someone came up with something cool.)
You do know that I'm the guy who wrote the critter rules section in SR5, don't you? If not...well, I am.
I can assure you that my "house rules" in my sig are a part of the canon that I'm working from as SR5 comes out of its chrysalis and ventures out into the world, and until such time as I'm asked not to write anymore (which, again, could happen tomorrow), I'm the one who's nurturing this particular corner of the Sixth world.
So you can pooh-pooh my "house rules" all you want, but you might reconsider that stance.
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That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.
You say house rule, I say oddly placed text for GM discernment.
If it is not official, then it is a house rule.
It's officially in a book. There are less explicit setting details that inform rules use.
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That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.
You say house rule, I say oddly placed text for GM discernment.
If it is not official, then it is a house rule.
You do know that I'm the one writing all of this for the game at the moment, right? At this point in time, in fact, I am the only one working on it. (This is less an indication of how awesome I am than it is a reflection that I'm the only one who has a major interest in it, so I get to work on it by myself much of the time; this could change tomorrow if someone came up with something cool.)
You do know that I'm the guy who wrote the critter rules section in SR5, don't you? If not...well, I am.
I can assure you that my "house rules" in my sig are a part of the canon that I'm working from as SR5 comes out of its chrysalis and ventures out into the world, and until such time as I'm asked not to write anymore (which, again, could happen tomorrow), I'm the one who's nurturing this particular corner of the Sixth world.
So you can pooh-pooh my "house rules" all you want, but you might reconsider that stance.
I do understand that, and I do hope that they let you get them through into the books since that's what's needed to be fully 100% official.
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If before that happens you fail 10 times (loosing 1 point of essence) then stop worrying, you're a ghoul
This is correct, I made a boo-boo in my original post on the math. You need to fail in total 10 of the required 80 hits, which is rather difficult to do, even with high edge.
It's also a bit stupid, IMO, that you can't use revitalization or cellular repair for this essence loss (should you survive and not be a flesh-eating citizen), while Essence drained by a vampire can be healed with cellular repair for a mere 15k. o_O
It's also fun for any street sam like character with an essence under 1.
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It's also a bit stupid, IMO, that you can't use revitalization or cellular repair for this essence loss (should you survive and not be a flesh-eating citizen), while Essence drained by a vampire can be healed with cellular repair for a mere 15k. o_O
They are different conceptually.
One is something drinking your life force. You're the same, just with less life force.
The other is an aggressive disease that gradually transforms you into something "else."
One you can "heal" with the treatment, but there's no known way (yet) to suspend or reverse the ghoul transformation.
It's also fun for any street sam like character with an essence under 1.
Meh. That's the cost of being cybered to the max.
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It's also nice for the vampire holding himself a stable of willing juiceboxes. Suck dry, refill, for a mere 15k ^^
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It's also a bit stupid, IMO, that you can't use revitalization or cellular repair for this essence loss (should you survive and not be a flesh-eating citizen), while Essence drained by a vampire can be healed with cellular repair for a mere 15k. o_O
Yeah...THAT is something I'm looking to nerf. A lot. I just haven't found a good way just yet.
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My 'easy' fix is that you need revitalization for essence drained in any way, or to fill up an essence hole.
75k base cost +20k (per additional month) per 0.1 and a month time, as well as an availability of 12 makes it difficult enough to achieve. On the other hand, I also allow this for ghoul survivors, so not exactly a nerf.
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My 'easy' fix is that you need revitalization for essence drained in any way, or to fill up an essence hole.
75k base cost +20k (per additional month) per 0.1 and a month time, as well as an availability of 12 makes it difficult enough to achieve. On the other hand, I also allow this for ghoul survivors, so not exactly a nerf.
I support this. Imho, cellular repair should not be able to repair lost essence anyways. It repairs your cells in a pure physical, not metaphysical way.
Btw, I would also allow to raise the maximum for magic/resonance again after healing your essence. If I remember correctly, the maximum reduction remains in place even if your essence is healed by revitalization.
I mean, it's not really overpowered to allow your mage to raise his magic again after he spent all this money and time.
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It's also a bit stupid, IMO, that you can't use revitalization or cellular repair for this essence loss (should you survive and not be a flesh-eating citizen), while Essence drained by a vampire can be healed with cellular repair for a mere 15k. o_O
Yeah...THAT is something I'm looking to nerf. A lot. I just haven't found a good way just yet.
That seems like a good way to set a vamp up with a cult of Renfields. Especially if they eventually become psychologically dependent on the relationship.
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It's also a bit stupid, IMO, that you can't use revitalization or cellular repair for this essence loss (should you survive and not be a flesh-eating citizen), while Essence drained by a vampire can be healed with cellular repair for a mere 15k. o_O
Yeah...THAT is something I'm looking to nerf. A lot. I just haven't found a good way just yet.
Why not a Magico-Medico breakthrough and a new technology to repair ghoul related essence loss? Maybe tie into big Ds will.
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It's also a bit stupid, IMO, that you can't use revitalization or cellular repair for this essence loss (should you survive and not be a flesh-eating citizen), while Essence drained by a vampire can be healed with cellular repair for a mere 15k. o_O
Yeah...THAT is something I'm looking to nerf. A lot. I just haven't found a good way just yet.
Why not a Magico-Medico breakthrough and a new technology to repair ghoul related essence loss? Maybe tie into big Ds will.
Perhaps because that would allow the Horrors to ultimately win. Remember, the original function of the HMHVV magical virus back in the 4th-World was to create foot-soldiers for their cronies and spread general terror in the land. Allowing vampires and ghouls to become targets of either pity or bounty-hunting allows them to succeed. >:(
That is why the Catalyst writers now made Infected as a playable option. Why players wouldn't have to abandon characters bitten/infected during game-play and open up new venues for GMs story-wise. 8)
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Ooooh, as if Freddy wasn't bad enough. :D
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Do you actually know how the whole disease resistance HMHVV thing works?
I do know all about the disease test and power escalation. Had a pretty hard time to figure out some facts on the first reading, as I remember of it. But actually, you don't see it in the right way. Which is called player metagame thinking. Knowing the rules, there are ways to optimize the rolls you will do by using edge at the good times. Like for exemple, always keeping 1 point for the tenth roll. Cause if you reduce it to zero it will not keep on killing you dry of essence (become something as different is as becoming a vampire, some kind of death, in some way).
If you are a well bred troll, with a little luck but no Edge, you can roll a mean of 4 hits by throws. Indeed you will escalate to great powers but if you use Edge, you are more likely to get the 8 hits (are there exploding 6 in SR5? Not sure, still, there were in sR4) . I admit you will probably lose much Essence and actually I went too far saying that only weak orks and trolls could be affected, I know the process but took a different basis for the hits average;) But that is not fatality, there is still a possibility (even needing a lot of luck is enough. Other versions are meant to kill). Penetration is bad, when it comes to injection vector, only for filters and so on. Actually, it was maybe better to have contact, because as such, chem protection mods were relevant. If this is injection, they are not, as being hurt means roughly that protection was bypassed (indeed, there are wounds without damaging the outside shell but they are rarer., even more when talking about claws and bites..)
Even better, if you somehow survive and later on are unlucky enough to get re-infected you don't start counting up to 1 essence from zero, you pick up where you left off before. Did you eke through with 0.8 essence loss last time? Well this time you get two failures before you become a ghoul.
If you let yourself being caught in such a dire situation two times, you deserve to die. I prefer being caught by cops, Mafia or corps that feeding ghouls and become one of them (if I can't fight them).
Your average troll has a bod of 7 and your average ork has a nice big 6. Pharmaceuticals are useless and everything else provides 3 less dice bonus. Even with the unofficial errata I think you'll see plenty of non-weak troll and ork ghouls out there. The big thing is changing the vector.
Well Six hits were not so unusual on my games, for pools of 10 or 12. Maybe not for these "average" 7 and 6. And I would prefer it to stay a true menace that even big luck has difficulties to handle, than just being a brute tank allowing to resist, even at a cost. Because it push these tanks in the path of getting sturdier and stupider instead of getting smarter.
If you go anywhere with millspec armor and a minigun you're going to get into a fight with someone that's for sure.
I don't like overly long gags, but anyway, you're going to Redmond, so you're going to get into a fight with someone for sure;)
Do you always have the choice? Frack no.
Indeed, and that's what makes one of their points. They are not overpowered but still really dangerous by their very existence if you don't take precautions; Learning to PCs to backup instead of blasting the door, and to come back once prepared is a good thing.
I once had my players pursuing some guy whose escape route went through a ghoul nest, and he used some kind of magic to stay undetected from the ghouls and to decoy on the PCs. When they understood what this old squat was, they backed up in seconds. They prefered to lose the guy and tail him later, than losing their life. It allowed some nice planning to get back to the nest and retrieve some material link one of PC shot out of the mage.
Indeed you have not always the choice off backing up, because when the ghoul which is trying to crunch your neck is on your back, you can say you're into it. But usually you don't find ghouls in your closet. Else you are not living at the good place. So if you are jumped upon by ghouls, that means you went deliberately to an area with them. In that case, bring firepower, and extra precautions and friends. And firethrowers, Napalm and cluster bombs. And landmines. Or/and your hazmat.
Else, don't complain;)
Or maybe the ghouls come to you while you're in the shower/out to a movie/ clubbing.
If you are the victim character from a bad flick, you don't deserve to die (not necessarily) but you will.
You're making the assumption that you have the situation totally under control at all times. Being a runner means you have to take risks.
Less that than knowing to say "shit happens" and backing up. Because will there are millions possibilities you don't anticipate, actually there are not million of possibilities they will fall from the sky onto you. You will usually be able to detect them before and even if not in position to dispose of them, you will be in for using your nice brain to get afraid and start to run, if you are smart enough.
But I recognize that is rare for players of RPG to understand they don't have to fight to death and so on when they meet ennemies. Went through a lot of cases like that.
Perhaps because that would allow the Horrors to ultimately win. Remember, the original function of the HMHVV magical virus back in the 4th-World was to create foot-soldiers for their cronies and spread general terror in the land. Allowing vampires and ghouls to become targets of either pity or bounty-hunting allows them to succeed. >:(
That is why the Catalyst writers now made Infected as a playable option. Why players wouldn't have to abandon characters bitten/infected during game-play and open up new venues for GMs story-wise. 8)
Don't understand that. To feed on the feelings, they (Horrors) have to be there. Not while mana level is so low, whatever the amount of "feeling in the air". Or am I mistaken? Also did not think that positive feelings (like compassion/pity) could feed them. They were not called horrors for nothing. If it was possible, then a lot more would have a symbiotic relationship with us, caring for us. And playing Cupid.
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Remember, the original function of the HMHVV magical virus back in the 4th-World was to create foot-soldiers for their cronies and spread general terror in the land.
Do you have a source for this? I studied the Earthdawn books of a friend to get infos on HMHVV. The only thing I've found is Eletheria, who seems to be the first banshee. It's not stated if she was turned by the Horrors by metahuman blood magic though and the text implies both possibilities. I would really appreciate further Earthdawn sources on this.
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