[Patrick Goodman]

HMHVV III is the most virulent form of the virus, and it can be spread with a bite, a scratch, even a mere touch if you’re unlucky enough to have an open wound.

I tend to use this quote, rather than getting bent out of shape with the literal interpretation of the mechanics.

That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.

Have you considered that's why I wrote the errata? As I said somewhere else, it might say "unofficial" on the link, but it's as real and "official" as it gets.

[SpatulaODoom]

Heck you don't even need to be in his presence. Ghoul opens door. Twenty minutes later random dude touches same doornob. Boom. Ghoul.
That would leave the question of how long the virus can survive outside the host (it varies) but given that it's touch vector probably a fair amount of time.

Boomstick. I'm not sure what/who you're responding to (or what you mean by "I just meant you are not be exposed in first place."). It seems to be my comment about fluff meeting crunch. Are you suggesting that the crunch is good but the fluff needs to be changed?
Consider that scenario you're painting. Do you always know when you're going to run into a particular danger? You must have an interesting Game Master. Should I grab my minigun and milspec armor, cause I'm going to Redmond today and I might possibly maybe run into a ghoul. That makes total sense.
If Ghouls are effectively Aliens then why do they have their own nation and live in cities? Why haven't they been wiped out. Also feral doesn't mean suicidal or uncaring of danger. Their spread isn't "really" being controlled.


EDIT: Mr. Goodman. Just wanted to check as I've only recently gotten into the Shadowrun RPG (used to read a bunch of the books). Do they basically not do official errata? I've never seen any beyond the unofficial stuff on this forum.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.

Whoa, ghoul by association?  Hehe....

[All4BigGuns]

HMHVV III is the most virulent form of the virus, and it can be spread with a bite, a scratch, even a mere touch if you’re unlucky enough to have an open wound.

I tend to use this quote, rather than getting bent out of shape with the literal interpretation of the mechanics.

That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.

Have you considered that's why I wrote the errata? As I said somewhere else, it might say "unofficial" on the link, but it's as real and "official" as it gets.

Hopefully, your unofficial stuff becomes official in the new edition. Otherwise, most GMs will refuse to acknowledge it simply because it is not "official".

It would be best for the Power to be lower for the virus than even in your unofficial stuff though (just by 1 or 2).

[Boomstick]

Have you considered that's why I wrote the errata? As I said somewhere else, it might say "unofficial" on the link, but it's as real and "official" as it gets.

Aren't you fan of snow ghouls? I would call them Dasher, Dancer, Prancer,  Vixen,  Comet, Cupid, Donder, Blitzen and Rudolph and make them pull a sleigh (with additional firepower;))

Actually, I find the errata idea of getting them the "injection" vector quite a good balance, as contact could come as a little hardcore, but I would have been fine in this case with keeping the same penetration and power. 6 and -3 is "very weak". You might not see any ork or troll bred ghoul, except the weakest among them. Ok, maybe the special rules for infections are not so pretty with HMHVV. But basically power 6 makes it not a lot more contagious than a flu, if I remember correctly. Would not make it scary, just by looking at the number. Actually, I believe it would be better to have more power and to have the disease to kill the victim by full essence drain instead of having to lose 1 point of Essence (but making it consume 0.5 or 0.25 instead of 0.1 of Essence by power point left). Players are very clingy when it comes to their Essence. It comes at even more dangerous because your character doesn't become a thing, it is just spoiled.

Heck you don't even need to be in his presence. Ghoul opens door. Twenty minutes later random dude touches same doornob. Boom. Ghoul.
That would leave the question of how long the virus can survive outside the host (it varies) but given that it's touch vector probably a fair amount of time.

Not necessary. Contact could really be contact coming from a warm body by mean of dermal cells or whatever fluid exhudating but having a very short lifespan outside of these.

Boomstick. I'm not sure what/who you're responding to

A little to everyone

(or what you mean by "I just meant you are not be exposed in first place.").

because I meant "I just meant you are not to be exposed in the first place", forgot "to". Actually, you should not come close to a ghoul, for you have not to use your brains against your own survival;)

It seems to be my comment about fluff meeting crunch. Are you suggesting that the crunch is good but the fluff needs to be changed?

I think both are fine. Just that, as I stated then, usually they are not smart critters, and we are their predators. So the threat is relative, given the circumstances.  Same scenario as most highly virulent diseases. Say Ebola. Highly deadly. But usually you only find it in the deep Africa, so one guy die but does not contaminate whole regions It is not found on central park where in a matter of days it would cause epidemic spread and lots of deaths.. Here, with ghouls, we are the barrage, in some way.

Consider that scenario you're painting. Do you always know when you're going to run into a particular danger? You must have an interesting Game Master. Should I grab my minigun and milspec armor, cause I'm going to Redmond today and I might possibly maybe run into a ghoul. That makes total sense.

You're going to Redmond, that won't be wasted;)
I am not sure if there are danger behind the next door. But that's why I take precautions. And if I was aware their could be ghouls (and that should be something which is known among people. Even because they will see it when it is not here), then I would take precautions over precautions.
And not go in the dark building at night where there are bizarre noises. Because I am a runner, not a stupid horror flick next victim.

If Ghouls are effectively Aliens then why do they have their own nation and live in cities?

There could be ethical matter since some are sentient so some people would not appreciate a wipe move, but I am actually very surprised no one tried to nuke them anonymously. Or that winternight didn't do the move since they should look at them as part of the bad things on Earth. For the occasion, would I be one of them, I would not have restricted the nuke to "nice EMP without collateral damage" mode.

Also feral doesn't mean suicidal or uncaring of danger. Their spread isn't "really" being controlled.

Feral don't. But it is stated that approaching Zero Essence make them act diregarding of their own good apart of the Essence feeding part. No more social inhibitions. No more "you are my daughter, I can't hurt you". No more "I would not attack humans because I am one". Just biting and tearing into something.

[Novocrane]

That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.

You say house rule, I say oddly placed text for GM discernment.

[All4BigGuns]

That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.

You say house rule, I say oddly placed text for GM discernment.

If it is not official, then it is a house rule.

[SpatulaODoom]

Actually, I find the errata idea of getting them the "injection" vector quite a good balance, as contact could come as a little hardcore, but I would have been fine in this case with keeping the same penetration and power. 6 and -3 is "very weak". You might not see any ork or troll bred ghoul, except the weakest among them. Ok, maybe the special rules for infections are not so pretty with HMHVV. But basically power 6 makes it not a lot more contagious than a flu, if I remember correctly.

Do you actually know how the whole disease resistance HMHVV thing works? Unless you get enough hits on your dice to reduce the power to 0 you fail, and loose 0.1 essence. Any power not removed via hits is added to the next test until you run through the minimum number of rolls (for ghoulies it's 10 rolls minimum).
Ex: You're hit. Tomorrow you roll 5 hits against the power of 8. Not enough, you loose 0.1 essence. Tomorrow you have to roll against power 11, 8+3(from yesterday). You repeat this process 10 times. After the 10th time you stop adding new power, but keep rolling until you reduce it to 0. If before that happens you fail 10 times (loosing 1 point of essence) then stop worrying, you're a ghoul. That means you need a total of either 80 or 60 hits to be cured completely.
 
Even better, if you somehow survive and later on are unlucky enough to get re-infected you don't start counting up to 1 essence from zero, you pick up where you left off before. Did you eke through with 0.8 essence loss last time? Well this time you get two failures before you become a ghoul.

Your average troll has a bod of 7 and your average ork has a nice big 6. Pharmaceuticals are useless and everything else provides 3 less dice bonus. Even with the unofficial errata I think you'll see plenty of non-weak troll and ork ghouls out there. The big thing is changing the vector.

With a little luck and the ability to get to high end help a healthy guy might survive. Everyone else still needs a miracle, but it's actually possible mathematically.

(Side note Influenza has a power of 2, 0 pen, and can be treated by pharmaceuticals. And the penalty for failure is a point or two of stun which can be recovered in an hour or two of rest, and some disorientation. It does however have a slightly quicker/longer speed though)

Not necessary. Contact could really be contact coming from a warm body by mean of dermal cells or whatever fluid exudating but having a very short lifespan outside of these.

That' would be the reason why I said “That would leave the question.” It's not really specified since the rules don't get that granular (thank god).

If you go anywhere with millspec armor and a minigun you're going to get into a fight with someone that's for sure.
Yea you're right, you shouldn't get up close and personal with a ghoul. Do you always have the choice? Frack no.

And not go in the dark building at night where there are bizarre noises. Because I am a runner, not a stupid horror flick next victim.

And thus refusing to complete the mission, resulting in worsening your rep and not getting paid. Or maybe that means you're caught by the Mafia/Ares/Area Boys hit squad out in the open. Or maybe you don't hear any noises because you failed your perception roll. Or maybe it isn't the sort of place where you would expect a ghoul. Or maybe you're targeted by a Tanamous  (Sp) ghould looking for dinner/parts. Or maybe the ghouls come to you while you're in the shower/out to a movie/ clubbing. Or one of a billion scenarios where you don't know it's coming.

You're making the assumption that you have the situation totally under control at all times. Being a runner means you have to take risks.

[Patrick Goodman]

That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.

You say house rule, I say oddly placed text for GM discernment.

If it is not official, then it is a house rule.

You do know that I'm the one writing all of this for the game at the moment, right? At this point in time, in fact, I am the only one working on it. (This is less an indication of how awesome I am than it is a reflection that I'm the only one who has a major interest in it, so I get to work on it by myself much of the time; this could change tomorrow if someone came up with something cool.)

You do know that I'm the guy who wrote the critter rules section in SR5, don't you? If not...well, I am.

I can assure you that my "house rules" in my sig are a part of the canon that I'm working from as SR5 comes out of its chrysalis and ventures out into the world, and until such time as I'm asked not to write anymore (which, again, could happen tomorrow), I'm the one who's nurturing this particular corner of the Sixth world.

So you can pooh-pooh my "house rules" all you want, but you might reconsider that stance.

[Novocrane]

That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.

You say house rule, I say oddly placed text for GM discernment.

If it is not official, then it is a house rule.

It's officially in a book. There are less explicit setting details that inform rules use.

[All4BigGuns]

That's a good and valid House Rule, but as it stands, if one goes by the rules of the game as written by the mechanics, so much as being in a ghoul's presence makes you a ghoul.

You say house rule, I say oddly placed text for GM discernment.

If it is not official, then it is a house rule.

You do know that I'm the one writing all of this for the game at the moment, right? At this point in time, in fact, I am the only one working on it. (This is less an indication of how awesome I am than it is a reflection that I'm the only one who has a major interest in it, so I get to work on it by myself much of the time; this could change tomorrow if someone came up with something cool.)

You do know that I'm the guy who wrote the critter rules section in SR5, don't you? If not...well, I am.

I can assure you that my "house rules" in my sig are a part of the canon that I'm working from as SR5 comes out of its chrysalis and ventures out into the world, and until such time as I'm asked not to write anymore (which, again, could happen tomorrow), I'm the one who's nurturing this particular corner of the Sixth world.

So you can pooh-pooh my "house rules" all you want, but you might reconsider that stance.

I do understand that, and I do hope that they let you get them through into the books since that's what's needed to be fully 100% official.

[bannockburn]

If before that happens you fail 10 times (loosing 1 point of essence) then stop worrying, you're a ghoul

This is correct, I made a boo-boo in my original post on the math. You need to fail in total 10 of the required 80 hits, which is rather difficult to do, even with high edge.
It's also a bit stupid, IMO, that you can't use revitalization or cellular repair for this essence loss (should you survive and not be a flesh-eating citizen), while Essence drained by a vampire can be healed with cellular repair for a mere 15k. o_O

It's also fun for any street sam like character with an essence under 1.

[SpatulaODoom]

It's also a bit stupid, IMO, that you can't use revitalization or cellular repair for this essence loss (should you survive and not be a flesh-eating citizen), while Essence drained by a vampire can be healed with cellular repair for a mere 15k. o_O

They are different conceptually.
One is something drinking your life force. You're the same, just with less life force.
The other is an aggressive disease that gradually transforms you into something "else."
One you can "heal" with the treatment, but there's no known way (yet) to suspend or reverse the ghoul transformation.

It's also fun for any street sam like character with an essence under 1.

Meh. That's the cost of being cybered to the max.

[bannockburn]

It's also nice for the vampire holding himself a stable of willing juiceboxes. Suck dry, refill, for a mere 15k ^^

[Patrick Goodman]

It's also a bit stupid, IMO, that you can't use revitalization or cellular repair for this essence loss (should you survive and not be a flesh-eating citizen), while Essence drained by a vampire can be healed with cellular repair for a mere 15k. o_O

Yeah...THAT is something I'm looking to nerf. A lot. I just haven't found a good way just yet.