Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: DWC on <07-31-13/1138:37>
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Looking closer, this thing seems like it came from the same brilliant minds as the Excalibur. With everyone now getting two stats to defend, what are the chances that something with an offensive DP of 6 will ever harm anything? It seems like the Duelist can't actually do anything other than troll Renraku and get destroyed. Am I missing the thing that makes it not terrible?
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Not necessarily, but it would be a low risk (relatively) way to make people deal with the die pool penalties for being in melee/facing a second attacker.
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Its a slowdown method - if something with swords for arms is up in a target's face, there is a good chance they want to shoot that first, and as Crunch states, its a good way to make them deal with penalties... especially if you have a rotodrone with a mounted sniper rifle and APDS. (I've decided that yes drones are squishy, but this means that rather than deciding they're worthless, I just have to think tactically about them - a flying drone with a sniper rifle and armor piercing rounds is a great complement to a fighting force, and a steel lynx makes for a fairly heavy support weapon when you take advantage of that heavy weapon mount that comes standard.) Secondly, you might be able to talk to your GM - with the right programming skills, you ought to be able to give it a nice software upgrade and improve the offensive capabilities of your drones.
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Perhaps most importantly, it also serves the crucial tactical role of matching the cover art.
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It is clearly designed as basic security, not a running tool. For the corporate family that wants to protect their snot-nosed brat when he's home alone. Protect against the thugs in the streets at your warehouse, especially the dimly lit one that makes it look like a real person.
Upgrade the software in it, or rig it, and you might have something to take into the shadows.
I plan on using them as distractions, so my team can evade enemy security. One makes its way down one hall towards a not-target, hopefully peel some security towards it.
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Now that is some good tactical thinking!
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*shrugs* I used to do the same thing with the old man servants when I was GMing. The PhysAd would ninja his way to take out the "one guard up there before he could sound the alarm" as the LoneStar team poured in.
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Sure, it isn't much to look at now. But in the hands of a rigger, or someone else who knows what they're doing, it can become very dangerous as part of the overall picture. Think of it like football. Does that inside guard really stand out too much compared to the quarterback, running back, and wide receiver? Of course not. But try playing without a line, and see how far you get.
And while you consider that, just wait until the 5th ed version of Arsenal comes out, and we get to start upgrading these things.
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And while you consider that, just wait until the 5th ed version of Arsenal comes out, and we get to start upgrading these things.
Sadly we apparently have to wait for Rigger 5 for that(they broke Arsenal into 2 books)
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To be fair, the Guards are more important than any of the "skill positions" to the quality of a team. Emmitt Smith came right out and said that if it weren't for the O-line Dallas had, none of us would even know his name.
But anyway, jumped in rigger aside, they still suck compared to a Steel Lynx with a belt-fed Crockett or AS-7. They're too fragile to be effective combatants, and rely on a rigger having a solid Blades skill which is way too specialized to really be useful.
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And while you consider that, just wait until the 5th ed version of Arsenal comes out, and we get to start upgrading these things.
Sadly we apparently have to wait for Rigger 5 for that(they broke Arsenal into 2 books)
That's actually a good thing. One of the major problems Riggers had in 4E was that they got a chapter, rather than a book.
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To be fair, the Guards are more important than any of the "skill positions" to the quality of a team. Emmitt Smith came right out and said that if it weren't for the O-line Dallas had, none of us would even know his name.
But anyway, jumped in rigger aside, they still suck compared to a Steel Lynx with a belt-fed Crockett or AS-7. They're too fragile to be effective combatants, and rely on a rigger having a solid Blades skill which is way too specialized to really be useful.
See, you're looking at this the wrong way, DWC. You can buy five of the Duelists for less than what it costs for one Steel Lynx, even before you worry about weapons and ammo. Which means that you can get teams of them in there. One moving target or five, which is easier to deal with? And consider that most people tend to forget about other things when they have swords about to lodge themselves in their face. Without modifications, it is not a primary attacker, but in a tactical setup it definitely has its purpose, especially now that melee has become a viable option again. And if you give a chameleon-coated one to your rigger, you have a perfect stealth weapon. You need to think beyond just "More dakka" and look at all the options the drone presents.
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Except that you can't chameleon coat one because there are no rules for it, and any random jerk with a R6 jammer forces them to rely on their awful Pilot program.
They're in the way, but with 6 dice, they won't hit anything so who cares? With its 8 dice to soak damage, 6 to avoid it and an 8 box damage track, any reasonably competent combatant will dispatch groups of them fairly effortlessly. The increase in damage done by melee attacks doesn't matter when these things won't ever actually hit anyone who wasn't already a lead candidate to get stuffed in a locker by the little old lady who empties the waste bins at night.
They're an amusing idea that completely fails in its implementation due to a combination of a terrible Pilot rating, a terrible Autosoft rating, and a lack of drone modification rules.
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That's actually a good thing. One of the major problems Riggers had in 4E was that they got a chapter, rather than a book.
Well the think is Run and Gun is likely to come out soonish(it's actually listed as an upcoming book), where's as Rigger 5 comes who knows when.
And drone riggers are practically unplayable until the modding rules come out(as standard drones are made out of wet tissue paper)
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Now you got me curious, where did you find the upcoming books? AH, there.
I like having drones squishy by the way. :) Makes them less overkill. Besides, you can always rig a bike.
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At the homepage.
shadowruntabletop.com :)
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They have a rating 3 pilot program (same rating as the Lynx, IIRC). The targeting autosoft is the the same rating as the one the Lynx has, too.
And again, you're looking at the drones only on their own, not as part of a tactical concept. The real key here is about how the drones interact with mages. Throw one in the face of a mage, and suddenly they have to worry about that, rather than summoning spirits or casting other spells, etc., while the rest of your group geeks him. When your mage is being targeted, swords swinging all about the sammy with the assault rifle will make him have to deal with that, rather than the mage slinging manabolts at him. Again, the duelist is like the offensive lineman. You never really notice it (except when someone calls Annexation of Puerto Rico) unless something's gone wrong. But when you use it right, everything else just gets that much easier. Think in terms of a team, rather than individuals.
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Found it, somehow. So Run Faster has been taken off the list for now, whereas Run And Gun (aka Arsenal: Guns) has been put in now instead. Somehow I strongly suspect this is related to how hard it is to properly playtest the BP- and Karma-gen systems, whereas creating new toys is easier.
So this confirms my suspicion that they're splitting Arsenal in two: A gun+armor (and martial-arts) book and a vehicle book (Rigger 5). :) *gives self pat on shoulder*
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Fun part of throwing 5 weak drones at a guy: Imagine a Summoning Spellcasting Dodge-19 Mystic Adept. Then he gets five of these around him. Now his dodge pool is down to 14. Suddenly the Street Sam's short burst is going to hit.
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That's actually a good thing. One of the major problems Riggers had in 4E was that they got a chapter, rather than a book.
Well the think is Run and Gun is likely to come out soonish(it's actually listed as an upcoming book), where's as Rigger 5 comes who knows when.
And drone riggers are practically unplayable until the modding rules come out(as standard drones are made out of wet tissue paper)
Actually Jumped In Drones are pretty resilient. It's only the autopilot rigger that has a problem.
They've also suggested that rigger 5 will be earlier in the edition cycle.
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Throw one in the face of a mage, and suddenly they have to worry about that, rather than summoning spirits or casting other spells, etc., while the rest of your group geeks him.
Even mage propaply has a dice advantage over the drone and can thus pretty much just ignore it :DThat's actually a good thing. One of the major problems Riggers had in 4E was that they got a chapter, rather than a book.
Well the think is Run and Gun is likely to come out soonish(it's actually listed as an upcoming book), where's as Rigger 5 comes who knows when.
And drone riggers are practically unplayable until the modding rules come out(as standard drones are made out of wet tissue paper)
Actually Jumped In Drones are pretty resilient. It's only the autopilot rigger that has a problem.
Maybe harder to hit, but their still build out of wet tissue papers. :(
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Either they take the damage or they take the -1 penalty per attack, which lets others launch the heavier attacks with ease. :)
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Either they take the damage or they take the -1 penalty per attack, which lets others launch the heavier attacks with ease. :)
Exactly. When playing the numbers game, you don't look at the numbers individually. You look at how they stack up together. Intelligently used, the Duelist in groups can ruin your whole day. And when the modding rules come out, there's going to be massive fun to be had.
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Mind if I ask how you determine the DV of the sword-arms as 6? I have a player who wants one but we have no idea how to determine its damage.
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Huh. Good one. I'd put them at 7P/-2. (Body as Strength, basic Sword is +3P/-2.)
Edit: That is, by the way, directly based on attacking with Mechanical Arms from SR4 Arsenal.
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That's actually a good thing. One of the major problems Riggers had in 4E was that they got a chapter, rather than a book.
Well the think is Run and Gun is likely to come out soonish(it's actually listed as an upcoming book), where's as Rigger 5 comes who knows when.
And drone riggers are practically unplayable until the modding rules come out(as standard drones are made out of wet tissue paper)
Actually Jumped In Drones are pretty resilient. It's only the autopilot rigger that has a problem.
They've also suggested that rigger 5 will be earlier in the edition cycle.
I really hope Rigger 5 comes out early. You cant really be a rigger without being able to customise stuff, thats the main fun bit!
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... I would dearly love to see Rigger 5, considering my first SR5 character is a rigger....
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Except that you can't chameleon coat one because there are no rules for it, and any random jerk with a R6 jammer forces them to rely on their awful Pilot program.
So yes, get within 30 meters of the 1,200Y piece of equipment and suffer Noise. All drones have this issue. Such is the danger of being a Drone Rigger. Or doing anything with tech at all. Dog brains are the worst.
They're in the way, but with 6 dice, they won't hit anything so who cares? With its 8 dice to soak damage, 6 to avoid it and an 8 box damage track, any reasonably competent combatant will dispatch groups of them fairly effortlessly. The increase in damage done by melee attacks doesn't matter when these things won't ever actually hit anyone who wasn't already a lead candidate to get stuffed in a locker by the little old lady who empties the waste bins at night.
Unless you buy more powerful autosofts for them. Sure, its expensive, but you can bring them up to 9 dice, which is a fair attack roll. Its no Prime Runner, but its on par with my running group.
They're an amusing idea that completely fails in its implementation due to a combination of a terrible Pilot rating, a terrible Autosoft rating, and a lack of drone modification rules.
Humanoid Drones have always been considered a novelty in SR, and never have been terribly effective at what they do. The description even points out that they're a novelty and are rarely used. They're a niche product, and you really have to think outside of the box to use them effectively.
Also, remember that the drones are a jab at Renraku. Their ineptitude is part of that charm.
If you chose not to use them, man, it is your choice. Less sec people expecting my little tricks.
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... I would dearly love to see Rigger 5, considering my first SR5 character is a rigger....
I personally suspect it will be one of the first two Core books after Run&Gun, but we'll have to see whether my hypothesis is right. ^_^
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I'm torn between wanting Rigger 5 and Data Trails to come out first. Honestly Run and Gun doesn't interest me at all. C'est la vie.