Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Fabe on <08-07-13/2044:21>
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any word on when we might see a second printing of the core rules or one with all the errata corrected? I'm interested in getting it but rather wait until all the mistakes are corrected.
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Its highly unlikely this will happen, think of the cost of reprinting it. The errata is usually a well referenced PDF.
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A second printing would happen after the first printing sells out. Since it hasn't hit the stores yet, we still got a while to go. Hopefully by then, the errata will be confirmed and taken into the printing.
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I'm hoping that maybe for the future, companies(not just Catalyst) will approach this pdf release before printing a little more wisely. Essentially what has occurred is that the SR community has beta-tested and proofed the core rulebook. If this had been done on purpose and before the print books had been ordered, then the actual first release of the core rulebook for printing would have been a far better product.
I don't think anyone around here would have minded treating this pdf release like the beta-test it appears to have become knowing that our pdf's would be updated with the improved document. As is, I have no intention of buying the first printing of the book knowing the amount of issues with it. Something to consider Catalyst team. I think taking a page out of the MMORPG playbook is in order.
I like the new rules, they just needed more time to simmer in the pot. ;D
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The problem with using the pdf to find errors is that after it takes you at least a month to get the errata done, it still takes at least two months for the books to go to the printer, then to the distribution centers. And that is assuming you managed to get an appointed with the printer that gives you enough leeway. That means we're talking 3+ months after pdf release before the shops have the book, likely four months even. At that point, the shops got a far reduced chance at actually making the sale.
Honestly I just hope that after these two big cons, one in july and one in august, Catalyst finds the time to take just that bit more to get things fixed before printing.
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Honestly for a first printing of an edition there's not THAT much Eratta, and it seems like Catalyst is handling it aggressively.
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The first printing hasn't even shipped yet!
The PDF edition will likely be updated with errata, as it won't cost much to do that, but a second printing requires that the first printing was sold out and enough demand still exists to warrant another printing. No publisher can afford to keep products in print forever.
Additionally, Catalyst has gotten pretty good at estimating how many sales they're likely to get. You'll notice if you look most of their publications tend not to have more than one or two printings, sometimes three on the outside. It's always much more expensive to have multiple smaller print runs than one large one, so being able to estimate your likely sales is important for publishers.
-k
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The PDF edition will likely be updated with errata, as it won't cost much to do that...
This tends to happen during the run-up to another printing. Putting errata in requires the book to go through layout again, and it's a big book.
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Ah, true. At least this go round attention is actually being paid to errata. Catalyst's previous track record on that, well...
-k
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Actually on the BT side of things Catalyst is REALLY aggressive and proactive about errata. I'm glad to see that culture filtering over here.
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2nd printing? I heard SR5A is coming out 2019.
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I'm hoping that maybe for the future, companies(not just Catalyst) will approach this pdf release before printing a little more wisely. Essentially what has occurred is that the SR community has beta-tested and proofed the core rulebook. If this had been done on purpose and before the print books had been ordered, then the actual first release of the core rulebook for printing would have been a far better product.
I don't think anyone around here would have minded treating this pdf release like the beta-test it appears to have become knowing that our pdf's would be updated with the improved document. As is, I have no intention of buying the first printing of the book knowing the amount of issues with it. Something to consider Catalyst team. I think taking a page out of the MMORPG playbook is in order.
I like the new rules, they just needed more time to simmer in the pot. ;D
I cancelled my preorder of the hardcopy as well and will just live with PDF until/if an updated printing happens sometime way in the future.
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The problem with using the pdf to find errors is that after it takes you at least a month to get the errata done, it still takes at least two months for the books to go to the printer, then to the distribution centers. And that is assuming you managed to get an appointed with the printer that gives you enough leeway. That means we're talking 3+ months after pdf release before the shops have the book, likely four months even. At that point, the shops got a far reduced chance at actually making the sale.
Honestly I just hope that after these two big cons, one in july and one in august, Catalyst finds the time to take just that bit more to get things fixed before printing.
I'm not sure I agree with that assertion. If a publisher sells a $20 BETA pdf version of its product, then the people who are buying are the ones who WANT the best product possible and are willing to read through, and poke holes in the system knowing they will get the updated pdf down the road. They are then MORE likely to buy the print version when it comes out, not less likely. And those people who were only going to buy the pdf version anyway aren't hitting your print sales anyways. I just don't see losing print revenue if you publish a BETA pdf version first, then release the updated version of the pdf the same time as the proofed book version.
But I will also assert I have no experience with such things, and I'm betting the margin for these things is too low to take that chance. What's going on with D&D Next is what I am talking about though to the extreme, but they are the 800 lb guerilla with the pocket book to take the chance.
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I'm not sure I agree with that assertion. If a publisher sells a $20 BETA pdf version of its product, then the people who are buying are the ones who WANT the best product possible and are willing to read through, and poke holes in the system knowing they will get the updated pdf down the road. They are then MORE likely to buy the print version when it comes out, not less likely. And those people who were only going to buy the pdf version anyway aren't hitting your print sales anyways. I just don't see losing print revenue if you publish a BETA pdf version first, then release the updated version of the pdf the same time as the proofed book version.
But I will also assert I have no experience with such things, and I'm betting the margin for these things is too low to take that chance. What's going on with D&D Next is what I am talking about though to the extreme, but they are the 800 lb guerilla with the pocket book to take the chance.
Look at Fantasy Flight. They sold beta rulebooks for Edge of the Empire for $30, and people bought them up. Then, those same people bought their $60 rulebook for the game when it released. They're repeating that with Age of Rebellion.
I think if CGL were to sell beta PDFs with a rebate coupon for the price of the PDF (or close to it), they'd get a ton of takers. And the product could be better because of it.
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Sounds like a good idea to me. To be honest, I still think that SR5 came out too soon (SR4A publication date is only 8/2009 according to Barnes and Noble's website), but it's already here so I'm going to look ahead instead of looking back.
Hadn't heard of Fantasy Flight, but that sounds like a great idea - doing something like that via PDF would probably be even easier, because that would enable the publisher to host a second-stage Beta test/release of the product before taking a couple of months to get feedback and then reorganize and prepare the (somewhat) perfected 1.0 edition.
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Releasing a beta version of their rules worked out pretty darn well for Paizo.
-k
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Honestly, SR4a was just a patching of SR4, which is supported by the fact the core books weren't replaced for the rest. We had 3 years, 6 years, 7 years,8 (4+4) years. And honestly, given how they didn't fix some of the very problematic parts of SR4 with SR4a, it was about bloody time for an SR5.
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I cancelled my preorder of the hardcopy as well and will just live with PDF until/if an updated printing happens sometime way in the future.
I did too. :( I wasn't happy to do it, but I couldn't justify spending over $100 on such a rough product. I know I have a long wait, but I'm looking forward to a new printing.
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It's not actually all that rough. There are a few erratas but nothing overwhelming.
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Not a 'specific errata' thread here I know, but is there a consensus on whether the crazy-cheap bone density and orthoskin is correct? Been looking for discussion on it and can't find it. Don't have time to read the tome on Street Samurai; had to bail after page 3,486.
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I haven't heard a single person doubt it. Statboosts became more expensive, other buffs often became cheaper. Combined with damage values and armor values having gone up, making it easy for a streetsam to buy extra armor seems fair and all that.
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Thank you, Michael.
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Thread nerco time.
Since there was some time between the PDF release and the print release was there any time used to clear up some of the errata or was the book pretty much already at the printers when the PDF went out?
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except that they posted today that there would be a second printing. No mention of errata.
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Thread nerco time.
Since there was some time between the PDF release and the print release was there any time used to clear up some of the errata or was the book pretty much already at the printers when the PDF went out?
The book was already off to the printers when the PDF was released.
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Thread nerco time.
Since there was some time between the PDF release and the print release was there any time used to clear up some of the errata or was the book pretty much already at the printers when the PDF went out?
The book was already off to the printers when the PDF was released.
OK thanks,hopefully the second printing will have everything cleaned up
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I have played or run a dozen games using the PDF and while an official errata would be nice, I don't need it to run a game, I think the SR5 Rulebook is perfectly playable as is. The issues I've seen kicked around the forums are minor. The core rules are solid, and the Matrix rules are the best yet.
I've seen a few hardbacks and there is no doubt is a beautiful book. I use the PDF on my iPad, so I never planned to buy a hardback, but every time I handle one, I waver.
As for a second printing, they probably have to sell most of the first one to make enough money for a second. Game companies run on razor thin margins.
Is it just me or have we peaked on the SR5 errata? The Rulebook has been pretty thoroughly vetted by the community by now. A number of the recent rules discussions are starting to recycle old themes. That is a good sign.
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Thread nerco time.
Since there was some time between the PDF release and the print release was there any time used to clear up some of the errata or was the book pretty much already at the printers when the PDF went out?
The book was already off to the printers when the PDF was released.
Which actually deviated from standard CGL practice. We have seen them release books in PDF well in advance, with time for errata to be
folded into the first print run. Unfortunately, because of the release of Shadowrun Returns, they were forced to release everything closer
together then they normally would, and so...we get this error filled book that is likely going to have a VERY large Errata/FAQ document.
I am expecting it to be like BattleTech's Tactical Operations Errata document..
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Which actually deviated from standard CGL practice.
Wrong. Printing options exist now that did not exist in the past, that's why it's different.
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Took advantage of one of those printing options myself... three B&W softcover rulebooks just landed on my doorstep on Monday. $18 apiece, full bleed, bright white matte pages (the better to pencil in errata). POD has come a long way since the last time I had a PDF printed out.
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Which actually deviated from standard CGL practice.
Wrong. Printing options exist now that did not exist in the past, that's why it's different.
*arches an eyebrow* Well, hopefully they learned from this experience, and will go back to the releasing the PDF
a bit before sending off to the Printers so that errata can be found ahead of time and included in the first printing.
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Thread nerco time.
Since there was some time between the PDF release and the print release was there any time used to clear up some of the errata or was the book pretty much already at the printers when the PDF went out?
The book was already off to the printers when the PDF was released.
OK thanks,hopefully the second printing will have everything cleaned up
Considering the first printing sold out before the street date and they have already begun the process of the second printing I would be very surprised if there were any changes between the 2.
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Which actually deviated from standard CGL practice.
Wrong. Printing options exist now that did not exist in the past, that's why it's different.
*arches an eyebrow* Well, hopefully they learned from this experience, and will go back to the releasing the PDF
a bit before sending off to the Printers so that errata can be found ahead of time and included in the first printing.
This would require months and months of lag time between the pdf and print version. Getting a 500-page book through layout, printing, and binding is not an easy (or cheap) feat.
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Which actually deviated from standard CGL practice.
Wrong. Printing options exist now that did not exist in the past, that's why it's different.
*arches an eyebrow* Well, hopefully they learned from this experience, and will go back to the releasing the PDF
a bit before sending off to the Printers so that errata can be found ahead of time and included in the first printing.
This would require months and months of lag time between the pdf and print version. Getting a 500-page book through layout, printing, and binding is not an easy (or cheap) feat.
It did not take months and months to incorporate initial feed back from the SR4A initial PDF release. Or any other book
they have done where they started incorporating Errata from the PDFs into the final release. Why would it be any further
of a delay? And those books had the months of over sea transit because they were made in China. This was done in
the U.S., so should be faster.
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From 1988 to 1993 I was one of those 'greeks"* that was in the photography/year book club in highschool.....
Back then, we had to get the final layout off to the printers by March 13 (first day of spring break) IF we wanted the book for June 21 the second to last day of school. That usually meant the yearbook club pulling 6 to 7 hours a day AFTER SCHOOL. for about two weeks to get all the last minute changes in.
Adding a sentence, or changing a caption is a BIG deal as it can throw the flow and continuity of a book all out of whack. Meaning, that adding a sentence is not a simple matter of sitting down and typing in a sentence... It's typing in that sentence, THEN checking every single page afterwards for the errors created by adding in that sentence... and then correcting them, which can end up costing you hundreds of man hours, and then several dollars more at the printer due to adding volume to the book, extra pictures to fill in blank spacing, blank pages, etc...
Yes technology has changed a whole lot since highschool. (back then, you were "cool" if you had a Walkman and a cordless phone in your room....and forget about a computer... they were $5000+!!) but the simple fact remains that is cost big money to reprint a massive book when they could to a printed errata for a fraction of the price... or just release it as a PDF on the main webpage for free (to us)... and could keep CGL out of "panic mode" for a while.
And really, when you look at the "real" problems, and not include the whiney ones, the number of clarifications and changes is actually pretty small.
as with any time a company releases a new PnP product, use the most up to date sourcebooks and fluff combined with the new rules to flesh out the details until they can get the new errata and sourcebooks out. And above all remember the 3 golden rules:
1: If something seems to powerful, you are probably missing or overlooking something.
2: RAW and RAI can be two different things... figure out which way you want to go, and stick with it throughout a campaign, if your wiffle back and forth, the chances are great you are going to "break" your game and be a very unhappy (whiny) poster.
3: Common sense rules the day! Use your common sense to problems that creep up and move on. If you don't have common sense, FIND SOME!
*(Or "that supreme asshole that just blackmailed you cause you really pissed him off" to dozens...)
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Hah, good times - when I was in high school (85-88) we did layout with typed blocks and hot beeswax. Not even kidding. In college we had access to better computers and layout software... but we still had the crowded room full of galley tables and the stink of hot wax. "Hey (Dangersaurus), clean those rollers!" still pops up in dreams now and then.
Nowadays I work at a major printer during fall and winter where have thousands of unique layouts to pump out the door every month (including those damn yearbooks - generally schools farm that out these days). We probably discard more work in a month than CGL prints in a year. Thank god I just do memos and QA most of the time, but depending on the crunch I'm all over the place. When we need something and need it now... I'm generally the one riding crop 6-8 times a day trying to get someone on track with our goal dates. Guess that carries over.
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Hah, good times - when I was in high school (85-88) we did layout with typed blocks and hot beeswax. Not even kidding. In college we had access to better computers and layout software... but we still had the crowded room full of galley tables and the stink of hot wax. "Hey (Dangersaurus), clean those rollers!" still pops up in dreams now and then.
Nowadays I work at a major printer during fall and winter where have thousands of unique layouts to pump out the door every month (including those damn yearbooks - generally schools farm that out these days). We probably discard more work in a month than CGL prints in a year. Thank god I just do memos and QA most of the time, but depending on the crunch I'm all over the place. When we need something and need it now... I'm generally the one riding crop 6-8 times a day trying to get someone on track with our goal dates. Guess that carries over.
Damn, would have been nice. We had to do the photography, Develop the film (YES! FILM!!! 35mm wide and it holds a picture!!! works by magic you know!!), then paste that to the page, then add in all the text, (and editing of that text.. guess who did NOT do that :P). we had to make sure that it all fit in our per book budget... as I recall, it was like $0.01 per 5 characters + $1.00 a page, + $0.04 a B/W picture and + $0.10 a color picture.
As for software..... yea... there was some available, but at the pricing of it at that time, it was totally outside of a single school's budget.
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And really, when you look at the "real" problems, and not include the whiney ones, the number of clarifications and changes is actually pretty small.
Either we got a different opinion on what amounts to a small number, or I'm a whiner. Not entirely sure which. That or you're grouping all removals of a single wrong version together as a single change.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I think they did a great job despite the rush and I have faith that they'll fix them all (even though I won't like some of the fixes, but that's neither here nor there) but I think there are more than a small amount.
Lessee, we got AoE dodging (remnant -2 in multiple parts including examples that needs to be removed), Gunnery snafus, Dwarf/Troll cost snafus, Noise needs to be clarified to never block communication only wireless bonuses (which actually defies my own common sense, I probably should buy a new one), Multiple Attacks has a significant part missing which will throw off the layout badly, we got some collissions on how Augmentations/Boosts of different types are meant to combine or clash where once more my own common sense betrayed me since it applied the definition of Augmented Maximum on what is meant with Augmentations, Instruction has two versions in the rules, Connection rules either contradict or aren't clearly labelled as both effective, Condition Monitor doesn't state you go K.O., Mystic Adepts are getting an errata, there's no rules on how to repair vehicle/drone damage, Rigger and vehicle/drone dodging rules are vague, it's not entirely clear whether Cyberprograms count for a Drone's Sharing (I think no but who knows), Initiation needs clarification on whether you can default (and if you take the -1 penalty for it) on Arcana for it and I'm pretty sure I'm missing a few Clarification things since these are mostly errata-only stuff. The 200+ typing errors and archaic terms used aren't a big deal yes.
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And really, when you look at the "real" problems, and not include the whiney ones, the number of clarifications and changes is actually pretty small.
Either we got a different opinion on what amounts to a small number, or I'm a whiner. Not entirely sure which. That or you're grouping all removals of a single wrong version together as a single change.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I think they did a great job despite the rush and I have faith that they'll fix them all (even though I won't like some of the fixes, but that's neither here nor there) but I think there are more than a small amount.
Lessee, we got AoE dodging (remnant -2 in multiple parts including examples that needs to be removed), Gunnery snafus, Dwarf/Troll cost snafus, Noise needs to be clarified to never block communication only wireless bonuses (which actually defies my own common sense, I probably should buy a new one), Multiple Attacks has a significant part missing which will throw off the layout badly, we got some collissions on how Augmentations/Boosts of different types are meant to combine or clash where once more my own common sense betrayed me since it applied the definition of Augmented Maximum on what is meant with Augmentations, Instruction has two versions in the rules, Connection rules either contradict or aren't clearly labelled as both effective, Condition Monitor doesn't state you go K.O., Mystic Adepts are getting an errata, there's no rules on how to repair vehicle/drone damage, Rigger and vehicle/drone dodging rules are vague, it's not entirely clear whether Cyberprograms count for a Drone's Sharing (I think no but who knows), Initiation needs clarification on whether you can default (and if you take the -1 penalty for it) on Arcana for it and I'm pretty sure I'm missing a few Clarification things since these are mostly errata-only stuff. The 200+ typing errors and archaic terms used aren't a big deal yes.
for a 500 page book, thats pretty small. Lets put this into perspective. The Canadian electrical code book is updated every 3 years, and is roughly 700 pages long. In the 2012 release there was 2800 changes. (Two thousand eight hundred)...
And that is just changes like an errata... and when you consider that the code book is supposedly written by 'the top experts of the electrical trade' that is a whopping number of changes, especially since its usually in the neighborhood of 40 to 100....
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Sounds like the kind of thing that's much easier to make errors in though. I guess we just differ on opinion on how many issues amounts to a small number. When we're around two dozen problems scattered around in multiple places each, plus a few hundred typing errors, I wouldn't call it small. I wouldn't call it horribly broken either though.
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I think gamers in general are prone to exaggerating the impact of errors in a gaming book.
Not that the errors present in SR5 don't cause some serious issues - namely Gunnery and it either being the skill to use every time you are firing a mounted weapon of any kind in any way, or only ever being used when remote firing a mounted weapon.
Most issues, however, (including spelling errors) barely affect the general playing of the game... and yet I have seen at least one poster claiming that the game is quote "impossible to play," because of the errors present.
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Yeah, impossible to play is rather much an exaggeration. I mean, the errors only complicate a few of the character types. We got what, perhaps 5% of the characters will run into them 5% of the time?
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I'd say that is a pretty fair estimate... if given a special exception for the multiple attacks vs. a single target question, since that one could plausible come up at any table that has combat involving characters with combat skills of 4+
Really though, as a long time Shadowrun player, my table has zero issues that will require errata from Catalyst - I've got all that knowledge of how it used to work (in a number of editions) that easily fills in any blanks and easily undoes any "what where they thinking?" changes (such as the new scatter rules, and counterspelling, my pair of personal problems with SR5)
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Not saying that the book is error free or couldnt use some improvements
, but totally broken? Not by a long shot.
And lets be fair Micheal, we have both seen some wild exclamations that the game is broken... when in reality it is just laziness and hyper exageration on the OP side of things. (And usually compounded by a lack if will to follow ALL the rules listed)
There are no real "game breaking" issues in 5th edition that a little rational thought and common sense can't fix :D (or at least make workable)
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The book is rife with small errors, and there are some puzzling rules issues... but who ever said it was broken or impossible to play? I think you guys are getting even more defensive about it than CGL themselves.
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The book is rife with small errors, and there are some puzzling rules issues... but who ever said it was broken or impossible to play? I think you guys are getting even more defensive about it than CGL themselves.
That is a hilarious thought, thank you for it.
As to who said broken or impossible to play... that would be certain posters on Dumpshock, and I think I remember seeing someone in one of the threads (I can't recall if it was here, dumpshock, or shadowrun.com) asking if the 2nd printing would include errata stating that they would be waiting to buy the book because they can't play it without errata.
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Riggers are pretty damn hard to play right out of the book. Not only because of the Gunnery rules being confusing as hell, as has been mentioned repeatedly, but the entire table for what autosofts cost is missing, how you repair damage for drones is missing, the drones themselves don't seem to have had their Armor updated from 4th edition, so they're all ridiculously fragile, and so on and so forth. Basically every aspect of Riggers has to have a GM houserule on how to interpret the book, or just outright provide their own numbers like with autosofts, before its a playable archetype.
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As to who said broken or impossible to play... that would be certain posters on Dumpshock, and I think I remember seeing someone in one of the threads (I can't recall if it was here, dumpshock, or shadowrun.com) asking if the 2nd printing would include errata stating that they would be waiting to buy the book because they can't play it without errata.
The first post in this thread seems to be along those lines.
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Riggers are pretty damn hard to play right out of the book. Not only because of the Gunnery rules being confusing as hell, as has been mentioned repeatedly, but the entire table for what autosofts cost is missing, how you repair damage for drones is missing, the drones themselves don't seem to have had their Armor updated from 4th edition, so they're all ridiculously fragile, and so on and so forth. Basically every aspect of Riggers has to have a GM houserule on how to interpret the book, or just outright provide their own numbers like with autosofts, before its a playable archetype.
That's not actually all that true...
You can play with confusing gunnery rules - just have your GM choose which part of the book is correct and ignore all others. The different sets of gunnery rules all function, the problem is that there is more than one set in the first place.
You can play without autosofts - they have clear benefits, yes, and you feel less capable without them... but you can still operate a drone without them.
You can even play without repairing your drones - it just gets expensive with all the buying new drones you will be doing. Alternatively, you can patch-fix the problem at the table by using the information present (which gives what skill to use, that the GM decides threshold and interval, and modifiers that might apply to the roll) and borrowing a single sentence from repairing matrix damage (that each hit either repairs 1 box of damage or reduces the interval time by half).
You can play with "ridiculously fragile" drones - you just use a different strategy than trying to have them sit through sprays of bullet fire, and the Steel Lynx is the only one actually referred to as a "combat" drone and can also hold up to gunfire better than most PCs.
None of the complaints that you raise actually prevent anyone from playing a drone rigger - they just make it a little more difficult than you want for it to be.
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Riggers are pretty damn hard to play right out of the book. Not only because of the Gunnery rules being confusing as hell, as has been mentioned repeatedly, but the entire table for what autosofts cost is missing, how you repair damage for drones is missing, the drones themselves don't seem to have had their Armor updated from 4th edition, so they're all ridiculously fragile, and so on and so forth. Basically every aspect of Riggers has to have a GM houserule on how to interpret the book, or just outright provide their own numbers like with autosofts, before its a playable archetype.
That's not actually all that true...
You can play with confusing gunnery rules - just have your GM choose which part of the book is correct and ignore all others. The different sets of gunnery rules all function, the problem is that there is more than one set in the first place.
You can play without autosofts - they have clear benefits, yes, and you feel less capable without them... but you can still operate a drone without them.
You can even play without repairing your drones - it just gets expensive with all the buying new drones you will be doing. Alternatively, you can patch-fix the problem at the table by using the information present (which gives what skill to use, that the GM decides threshold and interval, and modifiers that might apply to the roll) and borrowing a single sentence from repairing matrix damage (that each hit either repairs 1 box of damage or reduces the interval time by half).
You can play with "ridiculously fragile" drones - you just use a different strategy than trying to have them sit through sprays of bullet fire, and the Steel Lynx is the only one actually referred to as a "combat" drone and can also hold up to gunfire better than most PCs.
None of the complaints that you raise actually prevent anyone from playing a drone rigger - they just make it a little more difficult than you want for it to be.
And also, only the Gunnery thing would affect the Wheelman Rigger at all.
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That's not actually all that true...
See, automatically discounting legitimate concerns is what leads to hard feelings on this sort of thing. We're steps away from forming camps and circling the wagons.
There really are issues that need clarification to make the game run smoothly. People really are cancelling hardback orders and sticking with the PDF or some other solution (Lulu FTW). Selling out and topping charts should be a total win for them. How they handle the back end of it is going to majorly affect their public image for years to come. Is CGL going to be the next Steve Jackson Games, or the next Mongoose?
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That's not actually all that true...
See, automatically discounting legitimate concerns...
I did not, automatically or otherwise, discount any legitimate concerns.
The expressed concern - that riggers are not playable without errata - is one that is far from legitimate, and I expressed evidence proving such.
Now, had the poster said something subjective - example: I don't want to play such a rigger as is currently possible - rather than trying to state their opinion as unquestionable fact... well, then my post would have been significantly different.
See, concerns aren't legitimate just because someone is having them.
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You just turned "hard to play" which is what he said, into "not playable without errata." IMO you're not thinking clearly on this.
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It's not actually all that rough. There are a few erratas but nothing overwhelming.
I see what you are doing there!!!
Thanx for making me smile over your last 4 posts here, you joker :)
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You just turned "hard to play" which is what he said, into "not playable without errata." IMO you're not thinking clearly on this.
Sure, he started with "hard to play."
Had he stopped there, he would have been right and so would you. He didn't. He continued on to finish with "...before its a playable archetype."
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I outright said, that without the GM providing interpretations and houserules, they are hard to play straight out of the book. Your response was 'That's not true, the GM can just provide all those rules for you!'
...Which is exactly what I said. As written, without the GM having to houserule it, The Rigger archetype is missing huge chunks. Yes, if you specifically build to ignore those problems, you can play a Rigger just fine, but that's exactly what you're doing: Ignoring or houseruling the problems. That doesn't mean the problems aren't there and don't need to be fixed.
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I outright said, that without the GM providing interpretations and houserules, they are hard to play straight out of the book. Your response was 'That's not true, the GM can just provide all those rules for you!'
...Which is exactly what I said. As written, without the GM having to houserule it, The Rigger archetype is missing huge chunks. Yes, if you specifically build to ignore those problems, you can play a Rigger just fine, but that's exactly what you're doing: Ignoring or houseruling the problems. That doesn't mean the problems aren't there and don't need to be fixed.
and for the most part, we aren't disagreeing with you that there needs to be an errata, we are arguing which form that errata will take...
MY stance is that including all the errata into the corebook AT THIS TIME would be too expensive for CGL to do.... and they are most likely to release the Errata either as a separate PDF or include errata for specific rules in the following sourcebooks (like the errata for riggers in the rigger sourcebook) as that requires less man hours of work then adding it to the corebook and then fixing all the formatting AND changing all the incidentals that would come along with that (more pages, more bindings, etc)
OTHER peoples stances are that they refuse to buy the book until they DO put im the errata into the corebook
YET other people are off on other tangents.
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OTHER peoples stances are that they refuse to buy the book until they DO put im the errata into the corebook
And these are the ones that are causing problems. What they're expecting is, in my opinion, the same as going to a fast food burger joint and throwing a wall-eyed hissy fit because of a simple case of human error of putting pickles on the burger that was supposed to be no pickles and expecting two or three free meals out of it (yes people do that kind of crap).
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OTHER peoples stances are that they refuse to buy the book until they DO put im the errata into the corebook
.....going to a fast food burger joint and throwing a wall-eyed hissy fit because of a simple case of human error of putting pickles on the burger that was supposed to be no pickles and expecting two or three free meals out of it (yes people do that kind of crap).
way, way, way too often >:(
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OTHER peoples stances are that they refuse to buy the book until they DO put im the errata into the corebook
.....going to a fast food burger joint and throwing a wall-eyed hissy fit because of a simple case of human error of putting pickles on the burger that was supposed to be no pickles and expecting two or three free meals out of it (yes people do that kind of crap).
way, way, way too often >:(
Agreed, and what's worse is that when they get the free meals they generally have larger and more expensive orders. >:(
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I've yet to hear anybody say that errata is bullshit and that they should get free books. They're saying that the book isn't finished and they won't buy it until it is. So to make your analogy more accurate, it's like hearing that a fast food place doesn't have any burgers with pickles on it, and refusing to buy one until they start making them with pickles.
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Bull confirmed over on RPG.net earlier today that the second printing will not have errata incorporated. Basically a management decision to get the second run going as quickly as possible to ensure availability. The errata is not ready yet and they did not want to delay the second print run.
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OTHER peoples stances are that they refuse to buy the book until they DO put im the errata into the corebook
And these are the ones that are causing problems. What they're expecting is, in my opinion, the same as going to a fast food burger joint and throwing a wall-eyed hissy fit because of a simple case of human error of putting pickles on the burger that was supposed to be no pickles and expecting two or three free meals out of it (yes people do that kind of crap).
That's a terrible comparison.
People are perfectly entitled to wait until the second printing before they buy it, people are perfectly entitled to wait until the magic handbook is released before they buy it.
People can choose to play a game or not as desired.
I also find it amusing that you're complaining about people not buying the game because known errata considering the noise you made about the preference system instead of build points or karma gen.
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I also find it amusing that you're complaining about people not buying the game because known errata considering the noise you made about the preference system instead of build points or karma gen.
This has no bearing on the topic at hand, so please stop attacking me personally.
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Bull confirmed over on RPG.net earlier today that the second printing will not have errata incorporated. Basically a management decision to get the second run going as quickly as possible to ensure availability. The errata is not ready yet and they did not want to delay the second print run.
...
For those that missed it, here it is reposted:
It was posted as a reply over on teh Facebook page. And it is sadly true. The decision was made by upper management to go straight to the reprint, since certain places oversold their preorders (*cough*Amazon*cough*) meaning the distributors will have a hard time fulfilling all their orders, and they don't want to hold up preorders more than they have to. And while we've been diligently collecting feedback for the Errata and FAQ, we're wanting to take our time and get as much as possible right, and that's a very lengthy and time consuming process with a book as large and a ruleset as complex as Shadowrun 5. So the Errata isn't ready to go yet, and hasn't been implemented yet. Upper Management decided that delaying the reprint for a month while we implement then vet the errata wasn't acceptable, and so we end up here.
Bull
It's Amazon's fault! ;D
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Then I guess the people holding out will have to wait for the third printing.
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It's Amazon's fault! ;D
Nothing good comes from Amazon...all bad in gaming is their fault. :(
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OTHER peoples stances are that they refuse to buy the book until they DO put im the errata into the corebook
And these are the ones that are causing problems. What they're expecting is, in my opinion, the same as going to a fast food burger joint and throwing a wall-eyed hissy fit because of a simple case of human error of putting pickles on the burger that was supposed to be no pickles and expecting two or three free meals out of it (yes people do that kind of crap).
That's a terrible comparison.
People are perfectly entitled to wait until the second printing before they buy it, people are perfectly entitled to wait until the magic handbook is released before they buy it.
People can choose to play a game or not as desired.
I also find it amusing that you're complaining about people not buying the game because known errata considering the noise you made about the preference system instead of build points or karma gen.
+1 :)
Customer is guilty because he dont want to spend 30USD on unfinished product now, to be forced to spend another 30USD when the 5th, almost finished version of the product hits the market. Hilarious. I bought my 5ed pdf, read through it, and will keep playing SRA for next 2 years until they fix all those mistakes done and 2nd print of Magic and Matrix book, also debugged at least a bit, will be out.
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And lets be fair Micheal, we have both seen some wild exclamations that the game is broken... when in reality it is just laziness and hyper exageration on the OP side of things. (And usually compounded by a lack if will to follow ALL the rules listed)
But it IS broken. It's way too hard to create a munchkin build that a GM can't easily block! Rah!
Yeah, I agree, it's easy to balance things out, might include a tiny houserule here and there but it's easy to make rulings and calls.
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Gunnery requires a GM ruling. I go for G+L for all remote-control myself. As for Autosofts: We were given a temporary price already.
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That is not the case. Game mechanics are good, I like changes made in those. Well this
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11363.0
thread is 22 pages long. Solid argument for everyone who wants to wait.
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Has there ever been a rpg released without a errata in its wake? You'd think by now we'd all be used to having a few sheets of paper tucked into the rulebook.
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I dont think there was, or there ever will be, this kind of product done 100% right in first pass yield.
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There have been RPGs for which no errata was ever released... but only because the company that made them never even bothered to try making errata.
People used to play RPGs without errata included because the only way to get the errata was to buy a newer printing of the book.
But, like many things, along came an easier way to request and receive (but not actually an easier way to find the time to track down and implement) errata and people started to get more and more obsessed about it.
There never has been, and never will be, an RPG product produced that doesn't need errata.
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Actually RPGs that don't need errata already exist, those being every single RPG out there. Just because there are those who would really want it doesn't mean it's needed.
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Actually RPGs that don't need errata already exist, those being every single RPG out there. Just because there are those who would really want it doesn't mean it's needed.
Yeah, right. A4BG strikes again.
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Considering that it is now 2 (TWO) months PDF is out, would it not be time to get out an errata for this edition? I do understand that it is difficult to implant in a second printing an errata, but in a PDF, it isa joke not having it....
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Sichr's personal attack aside, the errata is still not a need but rather a want. You can still play the game fine without it.
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They've said they're working on it.
If it needs to wait to match with layout changes, it would be nice to get another temporary update a la the Missions Hot Patch.
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I'm guessing it's partially layout to blame yes. Design has been swamped after all.
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Considering that it is now 2 (TWO) months PDF is out, would it not be time to get out an errata for this edition? I do understand that it is difficult to implant in a second printing an errata, but in a PDF, it isa joke not having it....
The entire book has to go through layout again when errata gets rolled in. It's a big book, that takes a while to get done. Rather than do it once for the PDF and once for the print book, the book will go through layout again just before it goes to print. That's when the PDF will get its update.
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Actually RPGs that don't need errata already exist, those being every single RPG out there. Just because there are those who would really want it doesn't mean it's needed.
You are right, of course. I phrased what I was saying wrong. I meant only that there has never been a book published that was 100% exactly how the writers/editors/developers/etc. intended for it to be.
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Sichr's personal attack aside, the errata is still not a need but rather a want. You can still play the game fine without it.
You can even play RPG with no rules at all. Rules are not the need but rather a want
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That is not the case. Game mechanics are good, I like changes made in those. Well this
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11363.0
thread is 22 pages long. Solid argument for everyone who wants to wait.
As a frequent contributor to that thread I can say that well over 2/3s of the posts in there are discussion or repetition of a handful of known issues. You also appear to have an atypical browser setting. I show it at 15 pages.