Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Basic on <08-09-13/2111:29>
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What the advantage over having BF over SA when you can do SA burst ?
In SR4 SA had the advantage of giving you the ability to attack twice in a single combat turn but now you have to pick SA burst to do something close to that. Also apparently it seem that it does not give you any extra damage when you do a BF.
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What the advantage over having BF over SA when you can do SA burst ?
In SR4 SA had the advantage of giving you the ability to attack twice in a single combat turn but now you have to pick SA burst to do something close to that. Also apparently it seem that it does not give you any extra damage when you do a BF.
It requires a Complex Action to use a Semi-Auto Burst. Also, a BF weapon can Long Burst.
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What the advantage over having BF over SA when you can do SA burst ?
In SR4 SA had the advantage of giving you the ability to attack twice in a single combat turn but now you have to pick SA burst to do something close to that. Also apparently it seem that it does not give you any extra damage when you do a BF.
BF weapons tend to have bigger ma clips, so less need to worry about reloading if you're bursting. A BF weapon can do basically the same as the SA Burst on a Simple action rather than the Complex for SA Burst, allowing you to use your other Simple for something else. You can also do a better burst with a Complex with BF.
I'm not sure if this is right, but I believe I read you can use multi-attack Free action with the BF Simple Burst.
Weapons have all had their damage level reworked, which makes up for the fact firing more bullets at once doesn't add (directly) to damage any more.
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burst fire weapons using simple actions for bursts leads to two combinations of actions that stand out as big advantages over SA weapons:
1) aim/short burst, giving you extra accuracy/dice/both with a wireless smartgun that you can't get with SA.
2) short burst/take cover, letting you fire multiple shots and still take cover, something you simply can't do with a semiautomatic.
i'm of the opinion this is one of the better changes in 5th ed, actually.
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SS Weapons:
Fire once (1 bullet) - Simple Action
SA Weapons:
Fire Once (1 bullet) - Simple Action
Fire Burst (3 bullets) - Complex Action (Also known as SemiAutomatic Burst)
BF Weapons:
Fire Burst (3 bullets) - Simple Action
Fire Long Burst (6 bullets) - Complex Action
FA Weapons:
Fire Long Burst (6 bullets) - Simple Action
Fire Full Auto (10 bullets) - Complex Action
It gets a little confusing on full auto, because the Full-Auto section describes two different Full-Auto actions - a 6 round version and a 10 round version. But looking at it, the 6-round version is just a Long Burst, isn't it? It'd be clearer just to call it a Long Burst, since other than the firing action used they work the same.
-k
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Yeah, I'd just make it SS, SS/SB, SB/LB, LB/FB. Much easier. But they likely wanted to avoid having a Long Burst that's a Simple and a Long Burst that's a Complex. Informally, though, the SR4 terms are all you need.
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Yeah, I'd just make it SS, SS/SB, SB/LB, LB/FB. Much easier. But they likely wanted to avoid having a Long Burst that's a Simple and a Long Burst that's a Complex. Informally, though, the SR4 terms are all you need.
Some weapons are SA/BF/FA.
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And you have to change firing mode with an action, you can't just access each firing option at will. So if you go "I do a short burst", then the gm will note "okay, you did a long burst last time and didn't change firing mode, so that's a simple action".
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What the advantage over having BF over SA when you can do SA burst ?
SA Burst is shooting bullets for a full action phase so your recoil will carry over to the next action phase.
Burst fire is only shooting bullets for a simple action so recoil will reset to the next action phase.
(You also get to use the other simple action for stuff like take aim, take cover, reload weapon or whatever)
BF weapons also have the option to fire two individual 3-bullet bursts in the same action phase as one single attack, which give the target a defense roll modifier of -5.
Long Burst and 6 bullet Full Auto are not really the same thing though. Long Burst fire two individual 3-bullet bursts (press trigger twice) while 6 bullet Full Auto spray 6 bullets (press and hold trigger for a simple action). Long Burst can also be used to fire the two individual 3-bullet bursts at two individual targets (but both targets need to be at close or medium range) while the 6 bullet Full Auto only can be used to fire at one target (at least until we get additional rules that let us spray n pray Full auto in a cone attack)
(.... then again, we have rules for spraying full auto in a cone attack. In SR5 that is called "Suppressive Fire").
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Burst fire is only shooting bullets for a simple action so recoil will reset to the next action phase.
Uhm. Aren't you supposed to spend an entire Action Phase not firing a gun to reset recoil?
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What the advantage over having BF over SA when you can do SA burst ?
SA Burst is shooting bullets for a full action phase so your recoil will carry over to the next action phase.
Burst fire is only shooting bullets for a simple action so recoil will reset to the next action phase.
(You also get to use the other simple action for stuff like take aim, take cover, reload weapon or whatever)
Actually, I'm reasonably sure recoil only resets if you spend an entire Action Phase not shooting.
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Burst fire is only shooting bullets for a simple action so recoil will reset to the next action phase.
Uhm. Aren't you supposed to spend an entire Action Phase not firing a gun to reset recoil?
When you read the sentence,
QUOTE (p. 175 SR5)
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase.
the prepositional phrase, "for an entire Action Phase," ambiguously modifies either the phrase "an action" or the phrase "shooting." So the sentence in the context that I contend is incorrect would read,
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action for an entire Action Phase other than shooting.
I feel this interpretation is semantically weak if not invalid because we know the rules for Shadowrun. In those rules, Simple Actions are actions and do not take an entire Action Phase. The sentence says "an action," not "an action or actions," and so refers to one and only one action. So while the syntactic logic (the meaning of the sentence without context) is ambiguous, the semantic logic (the meaning of the sentence within context) is not.
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That's pretty semantic. I think the RAI is clear that an entire action phase must be spent without shooting to reset recoil on a non SS weapon.
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http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=1c5851c457fcc796bfdf515ca3b77142&showtopic=38980&st=200&p=1236986&#entry1236986
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Burst fire is only shooting bullets for a simple action so recoil will reset to the next action phase.
Uhm. Aren't you supposed to spend an entire Action Phase not firing a gun to reset recoil?
When you read the sentence,
QUOTE (p. 175 SR5)
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase.
the prepositional phrase, "for an entire Action Phase," ambiguously modifies either the phrase "an action" or the phrase "shooting." So the sentence in the context that I contend is incorrect would read,
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action for an entire Action Phase other than shooting.
I feel this interpretation is semantically weak if not invalid because we know the rules for Shadowrun. In those rules, Simple Actions are actions and do not take an entire Action Phase. The sentence says "an action," not "an action or actions," and so refers to one and only one action. So while the syntactic logic (the meaning of the sentence without context) is ambiguous, the semantic logic (the meaning of the sentence within context) is not.
I just interpreted it as taking one initiative pass of not firing a weapon for recoil reset to kick in. I've had occasion to fire handguns and rifles and it doesn't take 3 whole seconds to reset your recoil and sight back up, which I don't think an experienced shadowrunner will have problems doing.
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It definitely needs clarification, but I think the intent is that you simply do not fire for a single pass. Otherwise, resetting recoil would be way too easy.
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It definitely needs clarification, but I think the intent is that you simply do not fire for a single pass. Otherwise, resetting recoil would be way too easy.
That's what I would agree upon. RAI, taking a single pass to not shoot your gun doesn't seem like a make or break occasion. I'm glad the recoil is cumulative to the player, it prevents quickdraw players to ready/shoot weapons on the second pass. I understand action economy is very important, but c'mon, you can't think of doing something else for one whole pass?
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I like to answer questions, but my responses are not official errata, nor are they necessarily the opinion of Catalyst Game Labs or any of its employees; they might even be wrong.
The problem is that the grammar isn't that unclear. "other than shooting" clearly modifes "an action." For Aaron's reading to be correct we're reading it as "shooting for an entire action phase" as the opperative clause which would mean, because as Aaron says we know the rules of Shadowrun, that recoil only ever carries over if a complex action is taken to fire. Since only one simple action can be used to fire no number of single actions could constitute "shooting for an entire action phase" Aaron's reading could be replaced by a rule reading "Recoil never carries over unless a complex action is taken to fire."
Wheras if we read "other than shooting" as a modifier the rule makes perfect gramatical sense. I think the writer's intent is relatively clear.
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http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=1c5851c457fcc796bfdf515ca3b77142&showtopic=38980&st=200&p=1236986&#entry1236986
Okay, so what you were trying to say was "here's one of a few posts by Aaron on Dumpshock explaining that while the rules on the matter are harder to read than the text on a 200-year-old gravestone that's underwater, and despite what the example implies, what we wanted to write is that recoil resets once you spend a Simple or Complex Action on something that is not firing a gun".
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http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=1c5851c457fcc796bfdf515ca3b77142&showtopic=38980&st=200&p=1236986&#entry1236986
Okay, so what you were trying to say was "here's one of a few posts by Aaron on Dumpshock explaining that while the rules on the matter are harder to read than the text on a 200-year-old gravestone that's underwater, and despite what the example implies, what we wanted to write is that recoil resets once you spend a Simple or Complex Action on something that is not firing a gun".
Except that that can't be the reading since, regardless of the order of actions a simple action cannot be "shooting for an entire action phase" under Aaron's reasoning no simple action can ever generate cumulative recoil.
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Fun part: Who wants to bet the example-writer misread the thing or worse, that JM Hardy misread what Aaron meant, liked the idea and labelled it as a good idea, resulting in it now being RAI?
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I suspect, and no offense meant to Aaron, that this is another place where Aaron is going with his interpretation and that that may have nothing to do with RAI or RAW.
If we go by a strict linguistic reading his interpretation CANNOT be correct as a simple action cannot ever be "shooting for an entire Action Phase."
it must either be "You must take actions other than shooting for an entire Action Phase to reset recoil" OR "Only complex actions cause recoil to accumulate." Aaron's reading would require the entire rule to be erratad as his reading is not internally consistent.
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Fun part: Who wants to bet the example-writer misread the thing or worse, that JM Hardy misread what Aaron meant, liked the idea and labelled it as a good idea, resulting in it now being RAI?
It's certainly not out of the realm of possibility. I'm sure once the errata comes out, it'll be a very large one. I think the predominant problem has to do with the word usage.
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http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=1c5851c457fcc796bfdf515ca3b77142&showtopic=38980&st=200&p=1236986&#entry1236986
Okay, so what you were trying to say was "here's one of a few posts by Aaron on Dumpshock explaining that while the rules on the matter are harder to read than the text on a 200-year-old gravestone that's underwater, and despite what the example implies, what we wanted to write is that recoil resets once you spend a Simple or Complex Action on something that is not firing a gun".
Except that that can't be the reading since, regardless of the order of actions a simple action cannot be "shooting for an entire action phase" under Aaron's reasoning no simple action can ever generate cumulative recoil.
On page 10 of the topic he states that if your second Simple Action in one Action Phase is spent firing a firearm, and your first Simple Action in the next Action Phase is spent firing a firearm, your recoil doesn't reset until your second Simple Action in the second Action Phase.
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I suspect, and no offense meant to Aaron, that this is another place where Aaron is going with his interpretation and that that may have nothing to do with RAI or RAW.
If we go by a strict linguistic reading his interpretation CANNOT be correct as a simple action cannot ever be "shooting for an entire Action Phase."
it must either be "You must take actions other than shooting for an entire Action Phase to reset recoil" OR "Only complex actions cause recoil to accumulate." Aaron's reading would require the entire rule to be erratad as his reading is not internally consistent.
In this case, I would take it as the former. I've shot rifles and handguns before and anytime you fire more than one bullet, you will need a bit of time to reset yourself and be more accurate.
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http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=1c5851c457fcc796bfdf515ca3b77142&showtopic=38980&st=200&p=1236986&#entry1236986
Okay, so what you were trying to say was "here's one of a few posts by Aaron on Dumpshock explaining that while the rules on the matter are harder to read than the text on a 200-year-old gravestone that's underwater, and despite what the example implies, what we wanted to write is that recoil resets once you spend a Simple or Complex Action on something that is not firing a gun".
Except that that can't be the reading since, regardless of the order of actions a simple action cannot be "shooting for an entire action phase" under Aaron's reasoning no simple action can ever generate cumulative recoil.
On page 10 of the topic he states that if your second Simple Action in one Action Phase is spent firing a firearm, and your first Simple Action in the next Action Phase is spent firing a firearm, your recoil doesn't reset until your second Simple Action in the second Action Phase.
Ugh...that sounds like a nightmare to keep track of.
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Nvm, completely misunderstood. Still sounds like a nightmare to keep track of.
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On page 10 of the topic he states that if your second Simple Action in one Action Phase is spent firing a firearm, and your first Simple Action in the next Action Phase is spent firing a firearm, your recoil doesn't reset until your second Simple Action in the second Action Phase.
I read the whole conversation after it was pointed out. The problem is that, if we are basing the argument on the language which Aaron claims to be doing, then "for an entire action phase" has to modify either "shooting" or "an action."
Aaron argues that "for an entire action phase" modifies shooting. If that's the case then a Simple Action can never cause recoil to accumulate, because - as Aaron tells us- we know the rules of Shadowrun and a Simple Action can never be "shooting for an entire action phase."
There are only two internally consistent readings.
One is that only "shooting for an entire action phase" causes recoil to accumulate.
The other is that only taking non shooting actions for an entire action phase casues cumulative recoil to reset.
Aaron's reading, where taking a single non shooting action resets recoil, is not internally consistent. If that is the correct RAI then the rule will have to be completely rewritten.
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I've shot rifles and handguns before and anytime you fire more than one bullet, you will need a bit of time to reset yourself and be more accurate.
Non-wired persons (like yourself) get one action phase every 3 seconds.
Do you find that shooting 1 bullet every 2-3 second cause progressive recoil (little more than 1 bullet per three seconds)?
(my answer to this is no - not even for semi-automatic rifles).
Do you find that shooting 3 bullets every 2-3 seconds cause progressive recoil (little more than 1 bullet per second)?
(my answer to this is yes - at least for semi-automatic rifles).
From a real life perspective it make a lot of sense that recoil is reset if you don't spend the entire action phase shooting bullets (i can't being to grasp why would you still feel the effects of recoil after you spend 1-2 second to slot your rifle with a new magazine)
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I've shot rifles and handguns before and anytime you fire more than one bullet, you will need a bit of time to reset yourself and be more accurate.
Non-wired persons (like yourself) get one action phase every 3 seconds.
Actually, even average people have a 1/3 chance of getting 2 Action Phases under 5E, and for people that are more agile and/or intuitive it can even be 100%.
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I've shot rifles and handguns before and anytime you fire more than one bullet, you will need a bit of time to reset yourself and be more accurate.
Non-wired persons (like yourself) get one action phase every 3 seconds.
Do you find that shooting 1 bullet every 2-3 second cause progressive recoil (little more than 1 bullet per three seconds)?
(my answer to this is no - not even for semi-automatic rifles).
Do you find that shooting 3 bullets every 2-3 seconds cause progressive recoil (little more than 1 bullet per second)?
(my answer to this is yes - at least for semi-automatic rifles).
From a real life perspective it make a lot of sense that recoil is reset if you don't spend the entire action phase shooting bullets (i can't being to grasp why would you still feel the effects of recoil after you spend 1-2 second to slot your rifle with a new magazine)
I agree completely, the game mechanics, however, have something to say about it. Hell, if we really wanted to be getting into real life emulation, you would fire the weapon, run out of bullets, eject (simple if not smartgun), reload (simple) and take aim (simple), prior to shooting (simple). That's two passes of action which would tell me that's enough time for recoil progression to reset.
That's how I would picture it going anyway.
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It definitely needs clarification, but I think the intent is that you simply do not fire for a single pass. Otherwise, resetting recoil would be way too easy.
this. plus it is clear u must use an action other than shooting for an entire phase to reset recoil. therefore one simple action not shooting, and another in the same phase shooting, cannot meet the requirement. Aarons interpretstion, if it suggests otherwise is incorrect. clearer wording would be nice though.
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It definitely needs clarification, but I think the intent is that you simply do not fire for a single pass. Otherwise, resetting recoil would be way too easy.
this. plus it is clear u must use an action other than shooting for an entire phase to reset recoil. therefore one simple action not shooting, and another in the same phase shooting, cannot meet the requirement. Aarons interpretstion, if it suggests otherwise is incorrect. clearer wording would be nice though.
Actually, Aaron's interpretation is quite simple:
- an action other than [shooting for an entire Action Phase]
instead of - [an action other than shooting] for an entire Action Phase
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It definitely needs clarification, but I think the intent is that you simply do not fire for a single pass. Otherwise, resetting recoil would be way too easy.
this. plus it is clear u must use an action other than shooting for an entire phase to reset recoil. therefore one simple action not shooting, and another in the same phase shooting, cannot meet the requirement. Aarons interpretstion, if it suggests otherwise is incorrect. clearer wording would be nice though.
Actually, Aaron's interpretation is quite simple:
- an action other than [shooting for an entire Action Phase]
instead of - [an action other than shooting] for an entire Action Phase
Nope. Those are both possible interpretations. Aarons interpretation is
[an action other than shooting]
and then he throws the last part of the sentence in the gutter. A simple action cannot be [shooting for an entire action phase].
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I am pretty sure that when i played shadowrun back in 2nd ed you would never get recoil if you had a low rating gasvent system on your heavy pistol even if you fired it twice per "action phase".
In SR5 i can roll a troll and raise his strength to 10, augment it with 3 points of used muscle augmentation. Buy a Fichetti Security 600 light pistol that come with a detatchable folding stock. Mod it with a gasvent III system. Place it in a gyromount. Hold the pistol with both hands. Fire only once per action phase (half the rate of fire compared to SR2).
- But before i empty the clip in this light pistol i will have so much cumulative recoil that i cant even hit a stationary target at <5m.
That can not be intended. Seriously?
As I see it the only explanation is that:
1) we don't fully understand how to read the rule (maybe recoil compensation should be added every action phase or maybe recoil should reset every action phase if you only spend a simple action shooting bullets - or something else entirely).
or
2) The rule is wrong and need an errata (would not be the first).
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It's something they deliberately changed due to being able to fire just once per Action Phase. At that point, you cannot compare an ancient edition with the current one.
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Xenon even the harshest (and most internally consistent) reading of the rule resets recoil if you don't fire for a single action phase (a variable concept but a time period as short as half a second). That's hardly an egregious restriction.
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I agree completely, the game mechanics, however, have something to say about it. Hell, if we really wanted to be getting into real life emulation, you would fire the weapon, run out of bullets, eject (simple if not smartgun), reload (simple) and take aim (simple), prior to shooting (simple). That's two passes of action which would tell me that's enough time for recoil progression to reset.
That's how I would picture it going anyway.
This is how I think it works. I believe it gives that as an example in the book under one gun recoil on page 177.
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Xenon even the harshest (and most internally consistent) reading of the rule resets recoil if you don't fire for a single action phase (a variable concept but a time period as short as half a second). That's hardly an egregious restriction.
A normal non-wired person have an average initiative score that is 10 or less, which mean each action phase is ~3 seconds. To reset recoil a normal person would need ~6 seconds without shooting (or ~3 seconds if he have an initiative score of 11-20)
Each action phase is only ~0.5 seconds if you have an initiative score of 51+ (good luck with that).
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A normal non-wired person have an average initiative score that is 10 or less, which mean each action phase is ~3 seconds. To reset recoil a normal person would need ~6 seconds without shooting (or ~3 seconds if he have an initiative score of 11-20)
Honestly the example given seems badly written, no sane interpretation of the rules as written suggests you need to not fire for 2 full Action Phases.
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Xenon even the harshest (and most internally consistent) reading of the rule resets recoil if you don't fire for a single action phase (a variable concept but a time period as short as half a second). That's hardly an egregious restriction.
A normal non-wired person have an average initiative score that is 10 or less, which mean each action phase is ~3 seconds. To reset recoil a normal person would need ~6 seconds without shooting (or ~3 seconds if he have an initiative score of 11-20)
Each action phase is only ~0.5 seconds if you have an initiative score of 51+ (good luck with that).
As I noted "as short as half a second" that's as fast as it gets. A dead average person (with a statistical average of 3.5 in all stats) would actually average 10.5 on initiative and go twice. If you take 3 as average instead a normal person will still get a second action almost half of the time. And again, it's one full action phase for recoil reset under the harshest reading.
But take the case of an average person with a pistol. Assuming they only take one action a turn every turn (Very unlikely, but your case). They wouldn't have to worry about any recoil at all until they had been shooting as quickly as physically possible until the third combat turn.
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...I believe it gives that as an example in the book under one gun recoil on page 177.
In the example Wombat fire a single shot in one simple action, then he use his other simple action to take cover.
In the next action phase he use one simple action to take aim "...which removes the effects of progressive recoil and reset hit recoil compensation back to its initial 3 points..."
So if you go by the example alone the recoil reset after you spend 2 simple actions in a row not shooting bullets no matter if they are in the same action phase or not (then again, the example does not say what Wombat does with his second simple action in that last action phase).
Honestly the example given seems badly written, no sane interpretation of the rules as written suggests you need to not fire for 2 full Action Phases.
I am not sure if i follow you now. I don't suggest that.....
This might be a better way to illustrate what i mean:
Initiative 11-20
Time Action
0.00 Action phase 1 Combat turn 1. Fire one shot
1.50 Action phase 2 Combat turn 1. Fire second shot after 1.5 seconds. recoil does not reset.
3.00 Action phase 1 Combat turn 2. Fire third shot after another 1.5 seconds. recoil does not reset.
4.50 Action phase 2 Combat turn 2.
6.00 Action phase 1 Combat turn 3. Fire fourth shot after 3.0 seconds. recoil reset.
7.50 Action phase 2 Combat turn 3. Fire fifth shot after 1.5 seconds. recoil does not reset.
Initiative 0-10
Time Action
0.00 Action phase 1 Combat turn 1. Fire one shot
3.00 Action phase 1 Combat turn 2. Fire second shot after 3.0 seconds. recoil does not reset.
6.00 Action phase 1 Combat turn 3.
9.00 Action phase 1 Combat turn 4. Fire third shot after 6.0 seconds. recoil reset.
But take the case of an average person with a pistol. Assuming they only take one action a turn every turn (Very unlikely, but your case). They wouldn't have to worry about any recoil at all until they had been shooting as quickly as physically possible until the third combat turn.
Fire a semi-automatic pistol as fast as you can is 3 shots per action phase. That generate 3 points of progressive recoil. In the second action phase you would suffer 6 points of recoil. You get 1 + strength / 3 (round up) recoil compensation. To reach 6 recoil compensation he would need a strength of 13. (Good luck with that).
In this case he would suffer uncompensated recoil in the second action phase.
Unless he only have strength 1-3 of course, in that case he would suffer uncompensated recoil in the very first action phase ;)
(note that i don't have a problem with people getting recoil if they fire as fast as they can, taking up complex actions to do so. My issue is when you only fire once. In a simple action).
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So if you go by the example alone
Why would you do that.
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So if you go by the example alone
Why would you do that.
you don't.
almost every example in this book also seem to be wrong.
it was a direct reply to Angelone. This time i even included the quote so you would not be confused that i talked to you ZeConster.
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It's not not firing for 6s, since you spend 3s not firing. Actions don't happen in an instant, they consume time. So when you said not firing for 6s, I assumed you meant not firing for 2 Action Phases.
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It's not not firing for 6s, since you spend 3s not firing. Actions don't happen in an instant, they consume time. So when you said not firing for 6s, I assumed you meant not firing for 2 Action Phases.
Ahh. Yes that make sense.
But when you only pull the trigger once per action phase it will take ~3 seconds until you pull the trigger again in the next action phase if you only have one action phase per combat turn. And it will take ~6 seconds between your two shots if you want to reset the recoil if you only have one action phase per combat turn.
when you fire in a complex action you fire 1 bullet every second (or 1 bullet every half second if you have 11-20 initiative score). I can somewhat understand that you get progressive recoil then. I still can not understand why you can't have enough recoil compensation to fully absorb the recoil. A light pistol in a gyromount should simply never get enough recoil no matter how many bullets you fire - even if you fire a bullet every half second with no pause.
I would like to see a rule where only uncompensated recoil (recoil - recoil compensation; per action phase) would carry over. As it is now recoil compensation only count once, when you begin to fire, and then it does not matter how much recoil compensation you have - you will never have enough to stop that light pistol from getting out of control.... which is kinda silly tbh.
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In that case, wouldn't it be a better idea for you to have a houserule where the Recoil Compensation of the gun resets every combat turn? This way the strain on the body & gyromounts still applies and the RC of the gun itself matters.
By the way, see the recoil penalty more as the intensity as it hits you and your arm tires from the stress. Then it makes more sense.
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In that case, wouldn't it be a better idea for you to have a houserule where the Recoil Compensation of the gun resets every combat turn? This way the strain on the body & gyromounts still applies and the RC of the gun itself matters.
By the way, see the recoil penalty more as the intensity as it hits you and your arm tires from the stress. Then it makes more sense.
I would be willing to give this a try in our game. It is the OPERATOR's job to mitigate recoil, so even if the user has gyromounts and other attachments that aid with reducing recoil, the weapon itself isn't really affected.
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I support the more generous interpretation of the recoil rules, for it lets me kill things easier.
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It definitely needs clarification, but I think the intent is that you simply do not fire for a single pass. Otherwise, resetting recoil would be way too easy.
this. plus it is clear u must use an action other than shooting for an entire phase to reset recoil. therefore one simple action not shooting, and another in the same phase shooting, cannot meet the requirement. Aarons interpretstion, if it suggests otherwise is incorrect. clearer wording would be nice though.
Actually, Aaron's interpretation is quite simple:
- an action other than [shooting for an entire Action Phase]
instead of - [an action other than shooting] for an entire Action Phase
reading the sent in thecontext of the para, and looking at the example a few pages later, the one action no fire to reset recoil is simply wrong.
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I am confused as to why people seem to be having trouble with any of this - there is only one interpretation of the rules in which Single Shot mode is functionally different from Semi-Automatic and choosing not to do a SA-Burst, thus that must be the way the rule is meant to work.
Occam's Razor, and all that - the simple explanation is that SS and SA are meant to have differences, and one sentence suggests they do not if interpreted a certain way, so that one sentence is not worded clearly.
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Then again... Book try to simplify things on several locations (which ironically just make it more complicated to read and understand). Take the running charge modifier for example. Running cause -2 modifier on all your actions (except the sprinting action). Charge an enemy with a melee weapon give you +4 modifier. Instead they "simplify" it and state that a charge attack give you a +2 modifier.
Same thing with SS. If shooting a SS weapon only as a simple action does not cause recoil to carry over and since you can not shoot a SS weapon twice in an action phase or take a complex action to fire a SS weapon they might as well "simplify" things and state that shooting SS does not (never) cause recoil to carry over.
That does not mean that shooting SA in a simple action would or would not cause recoil to carry over. But it does mean that SA can not be worded the same way since you can also fire SA in a complex action (SA Burst) which will cause recoil to carry over no matter how you read the text.
It all boils down to how you interpretate this sentence on p.175 Progressive Recoil
"Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase."
And this can be read in two ways.
Scenario 1)
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character spend an entire action phase on an action (or actions?) that does not involve shooting bullets.
Scenario 2)
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character take an action other than shooting bullets during a full complex action (=shooting bullets for an entire action phase).
In scenario 1)
If you have two IPs per combat turn then you can fire one bullet as slow as once every 1.5 seconds and still build recoil. To reset or to not build more recoil you would need to spend 3 seconds between your shots. With a revolver you could fire one bullet every 1.5 seconds and not build recoil.
If you have one IP per combat turn (which non-wired normal people have) then you could fire one bullet as slow as once every 3 seconds and still build recoil. To reset or to not build more recoil you would need to spend 6 seconds between your shots. With a revolver you could fire one bullet every 3 seconds and not build recoil.
In scenario 2)
If you have two IPs per combat turn then you reset or not build recoil you if you spend 1.5 seconds between shots (same for revolvers). To build recoil you would need to fire once every half second (you can not do that with a revolver).
If you have one IP per combat turn then you reset or not build recoil you if you spend 3 seconds between shots. To build recoil you would need to fire once every second.
Also... All Complex Actions descriptions (where shoot for an entire action phase) state:
p.167 Fire full-Auto Weapon
"Remember the effects of cumulative recoil when using these fire modes"
p.167 Fire Long Burst or Semi-Auto Burst
"Remember the effects of cumulative recoil when using these fire modes."
...while the Simple action description (where you don't shoot for an entire action phase and instead spend time to bring the gun back under control) on p.165 Fire Semi-Auto, Single-Shot, Burst Fire or Full-Auto does not mention anything about cumulative recoil.
Now... That might not automatically mean there is not cumulative recoil for the simple action where you also take another action instead of shooting the entire action phase and have time to bring the gun back under control, but it sure does indicate that there is a difference compared to the complex action where you do shoot for an entire action phase.
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I honestly cannot fathom why recoil compensation would degrade like it does in 5E.
Either you have enough rec-comp or you don't. 5E already restricted combat to one attack per pass. All this stuff about resetting recoil is additional complication without any really good benefit.
-k
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agreed.
would be easier if 5pts of recoil compensation would let you fire up to 5 bullets per action phase without having to worry about recoil at all..... shrug.
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Because now that it is harder to hit people, burst fire is far more valuable. As such, recoil resetting each action phase is imbalancing.
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I honestly cannot fathom why recoil compensation would degrade like it does in 5E.
Either you have enough rec-comp or you don't. 5E already restricted combat to one attack per pass. All this stuff about resetting recoil is additional complication without any really good benefit.
-k
I suppose it's a matter of taste, but I'll take issue with the "without any really good benefit" part of that. One of the goals (and in my playtesting I think it's a succesful attempt) is to make SR5 combat more varied and less repetitive. Cumulative recoil, combined with the limit on attack actions, the change to movement and all the rest is designed to make combat a more varied experience. In SR4 most combat phases were simple "I fire two bursts." SR5 moves more and rewards characters with more options. I think that's a very large benefit.
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In SR4 most combat phases were simple "I fire two bursts." SR5 moves more and rewards characters with more options. I think that's a very large benefit.
Yeah, in 5E it's "I throw a grenade." 8)
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In SR4 most combat phases were simple "I fire two bursts." SR5 moves more and rewards characters with more options. I think that's a very large benefit.
Yeah, in 5E it's "I throw a grenade." 8)
Only if your GM is sleeping on the job. The number of reasons that grenades shouldn't be and aren't common has been spelled out in nauseating detail half a hundred times.
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In SR4 most combat phases were simple "I fire two bursts." SR5 moves more and rewards characters with more options. I think that's a very large benefit.
Yeah, in 5E it's "I throw a grenade." 8)
Only if your GM is sleeping on the job. The number of reasons that grenades shouldn't be and aren't common has been spelled out in nauseating detail half a hundred times.
Seriously. There are a lot of mitigating factors that have prevented me from using grenades against the runners as of yet. I appreciate the variations of the rules (explosions in enclosed spaces, for example), but man, it is a lot of consideration. My runners will get to experience the craziness of a more competent set of enemies.