[Basic]

What the advantage over having BF over SA when you can do SA burst ?

In SR4 SA had the advantage of giving you the ability to attack twice in a single combat turn but now you have to pick SA burst to do something close to that. Also apparently it seem that it does not give you any extra damage when you do a BF.

[Palladion]

What the advantage over having BF over SA when you can do SA burst ?

In SR4 SA had the advantage of giving you the ability to attack twice in a single combat turn but now you have to pick SA burst to do something close to that. Also apparently it seem that it does not give you any extra damage when you do a BF.

It requires a Complex Action to use a Semi-Auto Burst. Also, a BF weapon can Long Burst.

[Ghoulfodder]

What the advantage over having BF over SA when you can do SA burst ?

In SR4 SA had the advantage of giving you the ability to attack twice in a single combat turn but now you have to pick SA burst to do something close to that. Also apparently it seem that it does not give you any extra damage when you do a BF.

BF weapons tend to have bigger ma clips, so less need to worry about reloading if you're bursting. A BF weapon can do basically the same as the SA Burst on a Simple action rather than the Complex for SA Burst, allowing you to use your other Simple for something else. You can also do a better burst with a Complex with BF.

I'm not sure if this is right, but I believe I read you can use multi-attack Free action with the BF Simple Burst.

Weapons have all had their damage level reworked, which makes up for the fact firing more bullets at once doesn't add (directly) to damage any more.

[shinryu]

burst fire weapons using simple actions for bursts leads to two combinations of  actions that stand out as big advantages over SA weapons:

1) aim/short burst, giving you extra accuracy/dice/both with a wireless smartgun that you can't get with SA.
2) short burst/take cover, letting you fire multiple shots and still take cover, something you simply can't do with a semiautomatic.

i'm of the opinion this is one of the better changes in 5th ed, actually.

[KarmaInferno]

SS Weapons:
Fire once (1 bullet) - Simple Action

SA Weapons:
Fire Once (1 bullet) - Simple Action
Fire Burst (3 bullets) - Complex Action (Also known as SemiAutomatic Burst)

BF Weapons:
Fire Burst (3 bullets) - Simple Action
Fire Long Burst (6 bullets) - Complex Action

FA Weapons:
Fire Long Burst (6 bullets) - Simple Action
Fire Full Auto (10 bullets) - Complex Action

It gets a little confusing on full auto, because the Full-Auto section describes two different Full-Auto actions - a 6 round version and a 10 round version. But looking at it, the 6-round version is just a Long Burst, isn't it? It'd be clearer just to call it a Long Burst, since other than the firing action used they work the same.



-k

[Michael Chandra]

Yeah, I'd just make it SS, SS/SB, SB/LB, LB/FB. Much easier. But they likely wanted to avoid having a Long Burst that's a Simple and a Long Burst that's a Complex. Informally, though, the SR4 terms are all you need.

[phydaux42]

Yeah, I'd just make it SS, SS/SB, SB/LB, LB/FB. Much easier. But they likely wanted to avoid having a Long Burst that's a Simple and a Long Burst that's a Complex. Informally, though, the SR4 terms are all you need.

Some weapons are SA/BF/FA.

[Michael Chandra]

And you have to change firing mode with an action, you can't just access each firing option at will. So if you go "I do a short burst", then the gm will note "okay, you did a long burst last time and didn't change firing mode, so that's a simple action".

[Xenon]

What the advantage over having BF over SA when you can do SA burst ?

SA Burst is shooting bullets for a full action phase so your recoil will carry over to the next action phase.
Burst fire is only shooting bullets for a simple action so recoil will reset to the next action phase.
(You also get to use the other simple action for stuff like take aim, take cover, reload weapon or whatever)

BF weapons also have the option to fire two individual 3-bullet bursts in the same action phase as one single attack, which give the target a defense roll modifier of -5.


Long Burst and 6 bullet Full Auto are not really the same thing though. Long Burst fire two individual 3-bullet bursts (press trigger twice) while 6 bullet Full Auto spray 6 bullets (press and hold trigger for a simple action). Long Burst can also be used to fire the two individual 3-bullet bursts at two individual targets (but both targets need to be at close or medium range) while the 6 bullet Full Auto only can be used to fire at one target (at least until we get additional rules that let us spray n pray Full auto in a cone attack)

(.... then again, we have rules for spraying full auto in a cone attack. In SR5 that is called "Suppressive Fire").

[Michael Chandra]

Burst fire is only shooting bullets for a simple action so recoil will reset to the next action phase.

Uhm. Aren't you supposed to spend an entire Action Phase not firing a gun to reset recoil?

[ZeConster]

What the advantage over having BF over SA when you can do SA burst ?

SA Burst is shooting bullets for a full action phase so your recoil will carry over to the next action phase.
Burst fire is only shooting bullets for a simple action so recoil will reset to the next action phase.
(You also get to use the other simple action for stuff like take aim, take cover, reload weapon or whatever)

Actually, I'm reasonably sure recoil only resets if you spend an entire Action Phase not shooting.

[Xenon]

Burst fire is only shooting bullets for a simple action so recoil will reset to the next action phase.

Uhm. Aren't you supposed to spend an entire Action Phase not firing a gun to reset recoil?

When you read the sentence,

QUOTE (p. 175 SR5)
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase.

the prepositional phrase, "for an entire Action Phase," ambiguously modifies either the phrase "an action" or the phrase "shooting." So the sentence in the context that I contend is incorrect would read,

Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action for an entire Action Phase other than shooting.

I feel this interpretation is semantically weak if not invalid because we know the rules for Shadowrun. In those rules, Simple Actions are actions and do not take an entire Action Phase. The sentence says "an action," not "an action or actions," and so refers to one and only one action. So while the syntactic logic (the meaning of the sentence without context) is ambiguous, the semantic logic (the meaning of the sentence within context) is not.

[Crunch]

That's pretty semantic. I think the RAI is clear that an entire action phase must be spent without shooting to reset recoil on a non SS weapon.

[Xenon]

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=1c5851c457fcc796bfdf515ca3b77142&showtopic=38980&st=200&p=1236986&#entry1236986

[trunglefever]

Burst fire is only shooting bullets for a simple action so recoil will reset to the next action phase.

Uhm. Aren't you supposed to spend an entire Action Phase not firing a gun to reset recoil?

When you read the sentence,

QUOTE (p. 175 SR5)
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase.

the prepositional phrase, "for an entire Action Phase," ambiguously modifies either the phrase "an action" or the phrase "shooting." So the sentence in the context that I contend is incorrect would read,

Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action for an entire Action Phase other than shooting.

I feel this interpretation is semantically weak if not invalid because we know the rules for Shadowrun. In those rules, Simple Actions are actions and do not take an entire Action Phase. The sentence says "an action," not "an action or actions," and so refers to one and only one action. So while the syntactic logic (the meaning of the sentence without context) is ambiguous, the semantic logic (the meaning of the sentence within context) is not.

I just interpreted it as taking one initiative pass of not firing a weapon for recoil reset to kick in. I've had occasion to fire handguns and rifles and it doesn't take 3 whole seconds to reset your recoil and sight back up, which I don't think an experienced shadowrunner will have problems doing.