Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: MrSmiley on <08-21-13/0817:46>
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Has this ever been clarified in canon? The NAN rules a good chunk of what was the western United States and Canada. They've split into their own countries, even: Ute, Sioux, Pueblo and so forth.
But, as of real life 2013, there are only a few million native americans in the United States and Canada. The overwhelming bulk of the population of the western United States and Canada, in the vast majority of areas, is non-native american. Does this mean there were mass expulsions of whites and hispanics and blacks and so forth? Did the non-native populations remain but become second class citizens? Or do they remain and enjoy nominally equal rights despite being ruled by a tiny minority of the population?
If there were expulsions, I can only imagine that the vast majority of major cities in the area are now virtual ghost towns and the populations of the NAN countries are extremely low. If there weren't expulsions, then I can't imagine how the NAN countries function without basically having an apartheid situation, with native americans enjoying vast privileges compared to non-natives.
I'm sure this has been clarified somewhere.
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Not all the NAN states were equally adamant about driving out the Anglos.
Some such as The Salish Sidhe and the Pueplo Corporate council allowed anglos living in the territories seceded to them
by the Treaty to remain if they could proove any Amerindian blood what so ever, and or allowed non Amerinds to form their own tribes,
Also many of the NAN states opened their doors to immigration by metahumans expecially Salish Sidhe that allowed a mass Influx of
Elves no matter what their heritage.
Others such as the Sioux nation were much more hardline in their actions removing almost everyone who could not proove
full Blood Sioux Heritage.
I do remember that the NAN books did discuss this that many areas were much more wild and uninhabited than they are today.
While other areas expecially important Cities such as Vancouver Las Vegas etc, are little different than the Ucas sprawls you
can find.
Also decades have passed since the Nan States came into being so their population would have risen due to childbirths
and Immigration.
You can probably get Scans of the Original Native American States books I and II from Battleshop or driverhoughrp.com
Both books go into the details.
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The Native American Nations are highly recommanded if you do run a campaign in NAN (I think vol. 1 covers the area of interest you) - they contain the history of those events (such as the forced immigration of Anglos from the Ute Nation, and the massacres of remianin Anglos by mobs), including the Anglos legal status in the various nations.
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Ramid's post explains most of it.
The most recent and direct coverage of this question was in Shadows of North America. It also mentioned that since Aztlan was a member of the Sovereign Tribal Council at the time the Treaty of Denver was signed that anyone of Mexican descent would have also been grandfathered in under the NAN. That is to say that there should have been a lot of empty space, but there is already a lot of empty space in the states and provinces comprising the NAN. The PCC only took over southern California in 2061.
But for the most part it's just something that demands a heavy dose of suspension of disbelief.
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Covered above, but, yeah, first is that bit that Latinos got grandfathered in, so a surprisingly large chunk of the population isn't what people think of when they hear 'Native American". There were also many people that were kept, or that moved in, that were "1/64th Cherokee" or the like, whiteboys who the NAN government looked the other way for due to their having some aspect, such as being a big scientist or having mojo.
"Hey, I want to apply for membership. I don't know what tribe."
"Do you have any documentation?"
"Well, no, but..."
"Denied."
"Wait!"
"What?"
"Well, I figure I gotta be part Indian. I mean, I can do this." *hands start to glow*
"Ahh. Clearly a Shaman of the, uhm. Let's go with Chickasaw. Take this letter down the hall and go to the green door. Welcome to the Nations, brother."
The assorted NAN nations had different levels of "Purity!" cries, with teh Ute being the most expulsion-happy, then the Sioux, muttermutter, and the PCC being the least trigger-happy. In some areas, people wouldn't, or couldn't, move, so the NAN allowed some to stay on by adopting them into tribes, or by letting them form new tribes, while others were set up on reservations, so that they could live in relative peace and follow their native customs, like cookouts and the Chicken Dance, and to maintain their own language in the wake of a general reculturization.
What you wind up with is a sort of blood-segregation, where those who have the most Native blood 'naturally' rise to the top, getting most positions of power and wealth, mixed-blood sorts who make up the majority of the population, and then people with no Native or Latino blood pooling arond the bottom rungs of society, if they even participate at all. When moving through the former Wyoming, for instance, you'll stumble onto the rare reservation with a couple hundred white people, living in ramshackle trailerhomes, growing crops and living off the land, trying not to cause any trouble.
The cities are still around, and filled with people (Vancouver! Las Vegas! Boise!) but the population was considerably lower than before. Mind you, it's been 60 years, and that, combined with the NAN being accepting of Meta immigration for a while, has boosted their numbers a bit. (They also tend to lie about thier population numbers, which the NAN books reported as fact, which resulted in much derision.)
Heck, a few weeks ago, I had a blue-eyed, blonde-haired Mr. Johnson to give the team a job. They figured he was Ares, but he was actually working for a NAN member. It's fun to play with perception. :)
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The decision of certain councils to allow metahumans regardless of ethnicity in added a fair bit of population. Groups like the Sinsearch and the Cascade Ork helped grow the population quickly.
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Actually, if you can convince one of the Salish-Sidhe tribes to "grandfather" you in, you can get a bunch of friends and family in as a tribe. Like what happened with the Cascade Orks, who were "grandfathered" in by the Cascade Crow. This can bite them in the rear, as happened with the Sinsearch breaking off to become Tir Tirnagre, or semi-bite them like the Cascade Orks, who run more smuggling than many organized crime families, but always kick a cut to the SSC. A good way to look at it is that within the Salish-Sidhe Council, you've got a bunch of different tribes, few of which are "pure-bloods" (hence, tension with the Sioux is pretty much constant), so you've got a very loose confederation that only agrees on two things: Tir Tirnagre needs to be spanked, hard and constantly, and the Sioux are dicks. So, while they are a loose confederation, they actually have a military that gives the Sioux pause when thinking about invading them. This is helped by how ridiculously easy it is to get a SSC SIN.
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Also the population of the UCAS is much lower due to VITAS and things like that. In fact, the full world population has gone down due to that. So having a lot of empty space and some ghost towns is something you will also see outside of the NAN.
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Like what happened with the Cascade Orks, who were "grandfathered" in by the Cascade Crow.
Uhm. I thought the Cascade Orks came to be when part of the Crows goblinized, and the Crows hated them so the Orks left and they still have their occasional skirmish since they hate each other's guts?
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Like what happened with the Cascade Orks, who were "grandfathered" in by the Cascade Crow.
Uhm. I thought the Cascade Orks came to be when part of the Crows goblinized, and the Crows hated them so the Orks left and they still have their occasional skirmish since they hate each other's guts?
I think that's more or less correct, but I seem to recall the Cascade Orks then being fairly open to integrating Non Native Orks who were willing to adopt Native culture. I could be misremembering though.
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Not all the NAN states were equally adamant about driving out the Anglos.
Some such as The Salish Sidhe and the Pueplo Corporate council allowed anglos living in the territories seceded to them
by the Treaty to remain if they could proove any Amerindian blood what so ever, and or allowed non Amerinds to form their own tribes,
Also many of the NAN states opened their doors to immigration by metahumans expecially Salish Sidhe that allowed a mass Influx of
Elves no matter what their heritage.
Others such as the Sioux nation were much more hardline in their actions removing almost everyone who could not proove
full Blood Sioux Heritage.
I do remember that the NAN books did discuss this that many areas were much more wild and uninhabited than they are today.
While other areas expecially important Cities such as Vancouver Las Vegas etc, are little different than the Ucas sprawls you
can find.
Also decades have passed since the Nan States came into being so their population would have risen due to childbirths
and Immigration.
You can probably get Scans of the Original Native American States books I and II from Battleshop or driverhoughrp.com
Both books go into the details.
Thanks, exactly what I was looking for. I knew, or at least suspected, the answers to those questions could be found in one of the NAN books, but I didn't want to pay for the answer to just that one question when I was sure the answer would be floating out on the internet somewhere. I was hoping someone here would know and I'm glad that that is indeed the case.
As Crimsondude said, though, it's definitely something that requires a heavy dose of suspension of disbelief, above all considering they actually fragmented into completely different countries when the victory was won. Checking Wikipedia, a Sioux nation which only allows full-blooded Sioux to live there would amount to a country with around 170,000 people, maybe less. The area of the country they snatched away wasn't exactly dense with people to start with, but damn, how could a nation that thinly populated ever realistically hope to defend its borders against its neighbors, let alone field their own special forces outfit (the Wildcats)? Many towns and cities away from Sioux habitation would simply lose their entire population overnight. They might expand through birth rate in order to compete by the time of Shadowrun, but it would only make a dent if full-blooded Sioux started popping out babies left and right.
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how could a nation that thinly populated ever realistically hope to defend its borders against its neighbors
The answer to this question is in all seriousness, magic. Remember that the NAN came about essentially as a result of getting a magical WMD (In Daniel Howling Coyote and the Great Ghost Dance) that STILL can't really be duplicated 60 years later at a point when the USA was still laughing at "crystal wavers."
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Also the population of the UCAS is much lower due to VITAS and things like that. In fact, the full world population has gone down due to that. So having a lot of empty space and some ghost towns is something you will also see outside of the NAN.
This is a good point. The three waves of VITAS did a number on the population. We're talking Black Plague levels of death in some areas. Not as bad in most of the US, but it still wasn't pretty. Add to that the fact that large portions of the US even today is wide-open spaces, along with what other people have already said, and it becomes much more plausible. For instance, the majority of Oregon was basically depopulated by the various waves of VITAS and the war that brought the NAN into being, which is why the elves were able to step in and take over.
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You have to remember these nations had something that the U.S did not have and that was magic.
What use are fighter jets and tanks against Spirits and spell casters not to mention the awesome power of the Great Ghost Dance that caused volcanoes to explode caused massive storms and earthquakes that paralyzed the U.S
Had the Amerinds rebelled later once the rest of the world started catching up to them in the magic department their rebellion would have failed :)
By that time the U.S and Canada had other problems to deal with Vitas Secession of the CAS rise of the mega corps
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The answer to this question is in all seriousness, magic. Remember that the NAN came about essentially as a result of getting a magical WMD (In Daniel Howling Coyote and the Great Ghost Dance) that STILL can't really be duplicated 60 years later at a point when the USA was still laughing at "crystal wavers."
That's a tremendous advantage in 2018, but by 2050+ that particular arms race has changed dramatically. The UCAS has its own mages and shamans and otherwise 'Awakened' allies and would probably have a population thousands of times larger. Unless the Sioux are willing to use the Great Ghost Dance as their threat to every border dispute and every situation in which pressure is put upon them, and unless the Great Ghost Dance is truly so formidable that it can without fail overwhelm a rival that is now heavily competing in the very field (magic) that won things for them in the first war, the Sioux nation would by 2050-60 have to be a very thin rival indeed to its neighbors.
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No, Smiley, because the Sioux (and the other NAN) weren't just sitting on their hands all that time. They all have national militaries of their own, complete with all the bells and whistles. Hell, even during their war to take 'their' land, they took over Army and National Guard armories as they went along. And you know where the old United States kept a large portion of their nuclear weapons? The areas where the NAN are now. In other words, the Ghost Dance is just one of many tools in their toolbox.
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Thats largely what the America First! bunch have argued for since the creation of the NAN states but the UCAS has a number of things it would need to
worry about.
CAS. Any war with the NAN is likely to bring the CAS In and very likely on the side of the NAN as they would see it as the beginning of a war of reunification of America.
Aztlan Since Aztlan holds territory that the UCAS might try and claim at some point and Aztlan and through them Aztechnology is likely to support the NAN
The NAN states themselves while the Sioux Nation is small its a Military society every member is expected to serve time in the Army and personal ownership of quite heavy weaponry is the Norm. Also two of the NAN nations Salish Sidhe and the Pueplo Corporate council are advanced Industrial nations with large military forces any attack on one nation would bring the others into the fight as well.
Tir Tairngire The Elven nation wouldn't sit around if the Ucas started rolling in their direction and would most definetely support the NAN nations.
the Megacorps. Many of the megacorps have no wish to see a rebuilt America that could potentially challenge their powers
Japan would definitely not want a Powerful America meddling in their Pacific Ocean and would overtly or covertly support the NAN states
Amazonia same and on and on and on.
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1) NAN/Aztlan/CAS/Quebec and Cal Free all have reason to oppose UCAS expansionism.
2) The corporations prefer Nation States small and powerless. SR North America suits Ares and Renraku just fine. Aztlan would specifically be a voice on the Corporate Court against the expansion of the UCAS.
3) VITAS would logically have hit hardest in the major urban areas, so by the time of the NAN uprising the population pendulum may already have started swinging in the direction of the mostly rural Midwest, Southeast and West.
4) The CAS, Cal Free and the NAN ended up in posession of a dispraportionate amount of old US military hardware.
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No, Smiley, because the Sioux (and the other NAN) weren't just sitting on their hands all that time. They all have national militaries of their own, complete with all the bells and whistles. Hell, even during their war to take 'their' land, they took over Army and National Guard armories as they went along. And you know where the old United States kept a large portion of their nuclear weapons? The areas where the NAN are now. In other words, the Ghost Dance is just one of many tools in their toolbox.
Yes, but it's the national military of a country with a tiny, tiny fraction of the population of the UCAS. Once the magic trump card is countered by the UCAS having its own mages and shamans, unless the native to non-native population discrepancy is vastly different between the real world and world of Shadowrun, the NAN operates at a huge disadvantage in any situation where they can't wield the threat of another Great Ghost Dance or nuclear holocaust as a blunt cudgel. On a conventional military level, there simply isn't any way they could compete with the population of their non-native neighbors without both allowing massive non-native american immigration and strong incentives for that immigrant population to support the status quo.
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Remember Smiley that because of the Aztlan involvement at the time of the NAN's creation it's actually "Anyone with provable native blood, anyone with provable Latino/a blood, anyone with a reasonable case for some Native American blood in the more liberal areas of the NAN, any metahuman in the more Metahuman welcolming areas like the S-S) and while the Sioux were more selective than most, post formation the NAN states tend to be pretty relaxed about allowing internal movement and intermarriage.
So you might very well have a "Sioux Nation" where the Sioux are a minority compared to Latinos and migrants from other NAN states, but when you combine that with VITAS hitting harder on the coasts you see a much smaller population discrepancy.
That and of course FASAnomics.
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Yes, but it's the national military of a country with a tiny, tiny fraction of the population of the UCAS. Once the magic trump card is countered by the UCAS having its own mages and shamans, unless the native to non-native population discrepancy is vastly different between the real world and world of Shadowrun, the NAN operates at a huge disadvantage in any situation where they can't wield the threat of another Great Ghost Dance or nuclear holocaust as a blunt cudgel. On a conventional military level, there simply isn't any way they could compete with the population of their non-native neighbors without both allowing massive non-native american immigration and strong incentives for that immigrant population to support the status quo.
Part of the reason the Salish-Sidhe Council and Pueblo Corporate Council are less concerned about "purity" and more concerned about "will you do your part?"
And yes, some of the Cascade Orks used to be Cascade Crow, which is part of the reason for the rivalry. The other part is that since a large number of the orks joining the Cascade Orks were Americans, well, there two choices of racist jack-offs to vent your frustrations on nearby. The Cascade Crow, or Tir Tirnagre. Which is what leads to the smuggling "sideline" the tribe has. Basically, they handle a LOT of commerce for the SSC that keeps the ecomony going, but due to NAN or local laws, just wouldn't be happening.
And let's hear about FASAnomics. That should be amusing.
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I'm not sure if the CAS and Aztlan would fight for the NAN (you just don't see them on the same side), but they would be looking with interest. And while the UCAS might be able to wipe out a lot of the NAN, it would weaken them to the point that others (like Aztlan) would be rolling in and take over a lot of stuff. Since I believe the UCAS likes it that there's a buffer between them and Aztlan (PCC and CAS mostly), all that flies back and forth is words and the occasional spec ops raid.
It's in fact the same reason why the CAS isn't pressing against the NAN or UCAS, and the NAN isn't pressing against the CAS and UCAS. One on one is one thing, but knowing that if you start a war others will jump on you while you're weakened keeps everybody in line.
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FASAnomics? Essentially FASA was staffed mostly by writers and gamers rather than accountants and some things (population densities in the sixth world, intersteller armies protecting Successor States with hundreds of billions of peopel smaller than the current US army in Battletech etc) were great ideas with numbers that sounded good thrown at them,
Does it ruin the games? Nope. Does it occasionally take some mental gymnastics if you start thinking about it too hard? Yep.
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Actually, some of that was due to the fact they had to explain a couple major holes in the reasoning of Battletech. As far as the rapid population drop in the US, it would have been focused mainly on the East and West Coast. Higher population densities would see to that, if nothing else. Of course, I can see a newly elected Libertarian getting blamed for a liberal Congress selling off chunks of protected lands to corporations. I can't really see some of the runners accepting that at face value, though.
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The holes in the reasoning of Battletech (and SR, ED, CS, RL etc) are what is generally meant by FASAnomics.
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It doesn't really make sense at face value, but I hand wave it by saying the NAN has exceptional special forces to handle the small dust ups and everyone is afraid of Ghost Dance II, so no one tries a large scale invasion.
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Frankly, it makes more sense when you consider the politics of the writers. Frankly, they created the Libertarian Paradise by accident. Nobody ever said that a Libertarian Paradise was particularly nice for everyone. Or anyone, really. Why do I call it that? Because the government had become irrelevant. Logic dictates that the megas at some point HAVE to start making the world better, if only because if they keep it a shithole, their own bottom line is going to suffer for it. But since the writers believe corporations are evil, they must be evil.
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It's typically not kosher to discuss contemporary (as opposed to fictional or historical) politics on the boards Silence, so I'll just say that neither the history of plutocracy nor the history of aristocracy supports the contention that corporations will necessarily make the world a better place.
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It just history that a free thinking body (corporation, government, union) must be recognized as benevolent to stimulate progress.
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Again this isn't the place for it, but you would need to spend a lot more time defining the term "free thinking body" to make that statement worth debating, and then spend a lot of time discussing why, historically, so few bodies have been benevolent but so much progress has been made.
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Again this isn't the place for it, but you would need to spend a lot more time defining the term "free thinking body" to make that statement worth debating, and then spend a lot of time discussing why, historically, so few bodies have been benevolent but so much progress has been made.
Fair 'nuff :)
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It's typically not kosher to discuss contemporary (as opposed to fictional or historical) politics on the boards Silence, so I'll just say that neither the history of plutocracy nor the history of aristocracy supports the contention that corporations will necessarily make the world a better place.
And on that note, I'll drop that. Either way, FASA did leave a lot of holes in their writing.
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Holes, sure, but they made a go of it, which was blazing new territory at the time. It upped everyone's game, and I tip my hat to the founding fathers of FASA for it.
In the modern NAN, you'll have seen a population boom as the people with a new country that had a lot of land and few people would get busy filling up that space. The actual numbers are unknown, but I think it safe to say that in the 60 years they've had plenty of time to more than double their population. (As a comparison, the US went from 132 million in 1940 to 281 million in 2000. It's safe to assume that the NAN population doubled, and probably more than that'd.)
As for magic, the UCAS isn't all that in terms of magical power. They'd love to be higher-rated, but the magical talents get scalped by the corps, leaving only teh dregs behind. There're plenty of folk who eyeball the smaller NAN population, the UCAS tech edge, and go, "They've never shown that kind of magical power again. It has to have been a ruse, or a one-time thing, right?" The higher-ups go, "But, what if it wasn't? We can't take that chance." Cooler heads prevail and, aside from the occasional border dustup, no real action has ever broken out. You'd best *believe* that they went over the tapes of the Tir attack on California later and went, "Huh, so *that's* how that works..." as they took notes.
Currently, they might think that they could win a wr, but they don't know how easy it would be and, as noted, it wouldn't be a one-on-one thing. Aztlan might get involved, the SSC and PCC certainly would, and nobody knows what the CAS would do. There're just too many variables to take back, what, Wyoming? Not worth the investment.
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Don't get me wrong, I LOVE FASA I still play both SR and BT and if I could find a group I'd dust off my Renegade Legion in a second. Hell there was a decade where I had 5 or 6 FASA games in regular rotation. But with numbers they tended to flub a bit.
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Also the population of the UCAS is much lower due to VITAS and things like that. In fact, the full world population has gone down due to that. So having a lot of empty space and some ghost towns is something you will also see outside of the NAN.
Note that by 2063 and Shadows of North America, the population of the UCAS, at 172 millions, is greater than what it was circa 2010 IRL (about 160 millions, I didn't bother to do the math with each counties that ended up in North Virginia and North Missour and the bits of Manitoba and Saskatchewan). So there would have been a lot of empty space for much of the 21st century, but by the time we play Shadowrun, things would be back to what GM and players are used to IRL (except for ghost towns I guess, as they are more likely to remain as ghost towns even if when population increase again).
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2) The corporations prefer Nation States small and powerless.
But economically open. See: the NEEC.
4) The CAS, Cal Free and the NAN ended up in posession of a dispraportionate amount of old US military hardware.
The U.S. took all its toys when it left California. But the CAS is already heavily militarized and people from those states comprise the majority of the military.
Frankly, it makes more sense when you consider the politics of the writers.
Or that they were making a cyberpunk genre RPG. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So there would have been a lot of empty space for much of the 21st century, but by the time we play Shadowrun, things would be back to what GM and players are used to IRL (except for ghost towns I guess, as they are more likely to remain as ghost towns even if when population increase again).
Hell, the Redmond Barrens exist because of post-Crash flight.
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I strongly suspect the population numbers are estimates, and are factoring in ork birth rates.
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2) The corporations prefer Nation States small and powerless.
But economically open. See: the NEEC.
Yep, I was just thinking economics. Set aside the military stuff for a second, since it's lost a bit of weight in a world really owned by megacorps who are all about profit; I have to wonder how well the NAN countries do economically. Just judging from anecdotal evidence in the Denver sourcebook, the NAN seem to be big on 'back to nature', with part of the provisions of the Treaty of Denver being that a good chunk of the city (basically, everything built after 1987) be bulldozed so that nature can flourish or some such. Makes sense for a group that basically just won a war owing to nature spirits.
But from an economic viewpoint, I can't help but wonder what the megacorps think of virtually the entire North American west outside of California (CFS) and Oregon (Tir Tairngire) adopting such a business-unfriendly policy. Given how much its emphasized that nation-states are a joke powerwise next to the corporations in Shadowrun, and given that the corporations are pretty much presented as being run by sociopaths interested only in profit at all costs, you'd think that the moment such policies were adopted the megacorps would either engineer a coup to replace the NAN governments with people more accommodating to their interests or simply isolate the region until a more corporate-friendly government came to power. However helpless the UCAS may be, the NAN can't exactly stand against the united displeasure of the Megacorps, and I find it hard to believe those corporations would tolerate the American west being allowed to lapse back into wilderness because nature is good and cities are bad.
Of course, I may be overstating how drastic those NAN policies are. Only source I have readily available, as mentioned above, is the Denver sourcebook.
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I wasn't aware the corps were already all-powerful in 2018.
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But, as of real life 2013, there are only a few million native americans in the United States and Canada. The overwhelming bulk of the population of the western United States and Canada, in the vast majority of areas, is non-native american. Does this mean there were mass expulsions of whites and hispanics and blacks and so forth? Did the non-native populations remain but become second class citizens? Or do they remain and enjoy nominally equal rights despite being ruled by a tiny minority of the population?
-- Be aware there is a rather significant high-level difference in approach to the subject between Nigel Findley's Native American Nations and the later Shadows of North America. Particularly, in the old material it's made rather clear that most of the NAN population are 'racially' Amerinds (many full-blooded) and this probably the design intent as well. The population numbers were chosen out of a hat (maybe even literally). Rule of cool and worldbuilding was the goal, not alt-history extrapolation. So, in the old NAN books when they talk about Amerinds they mean no-drek genetic lineages, "blood purity" and all.
-- Enter SONA. Several of the authors (including myself) felt that the populations were problematic for a number of reasons, and that the NAN in general was a bit boring and one note. We took a look at the (then current) Amerind tribe sizes, ran some numbers for crazy population growth, and still didn't really like what we got. So the decision was made to rebalance populations. We hung our hats on an interesting statement in NAN2 that basically hinted that the populations were being misreported because the NAN weighted influence by national population. As it seemed unlikely the NAN countries were all conducting effective census canvasing this seemed plausible - so basically by 2062 the situation had become so farcical that the STC finally put its foot down and changed their system to fixed numbers of national reps, removing the need to report crazy numbers. That, and a healthy dose of "Well, how the hell does Danchekker know?"
-- The comment is in NAN2, p. 77:
> The Council tends to play fast and loose with its citizenship lists. I know for a fact that more than 10,000 dead people are still listed as citizens-in-good-standing. Why, pray tell?
> Prester John
> Probably some kind of political scam they're working on the NAN. Aren't some votes weighted by national population? If so, then the "brain drain" is also leeching away Athabasca's clout in the Sovereign Council.
> Golden Bear
> You got it, chummer.
> Willard
-- Note that "brain drain." Supposedly most of the NANs were losing young people hand over first to ..... somewhere not NAN. Findley didn't really flesh this out and was contradictory in places. Most of the NAN had ludicrously restricted immigration (still does in SONA) so new people weren't entering, supposedly tons were leaving ... and the Algonkian-Manitoo Council had 22.5 million people?
-- Hence the SONA population crunch, and the widening of the pool for potential Amerinds (basically, "one drop" citizenship status in most cases). This also helped explain the contradictory "Amerinds only" and "we love metahumans" material. So basically "Anglo" is a cultural perjorative now, and doesn't mean "white dude" since many of the NAN citizens are (and were) "white dudes."
-- That said, we all (imperial "we" I know there was some dissent) assumed that in the Shadowrun universe there were like an order-of-magnitude more Amerinds running around before Lone Eagle and all that. I don't believe that ever got communicated in the book, and frankly doesn't really matter. SONA also saw the end of the universally (minus Tsimshian/Aztlan) tree-hugging Danchekker whitewashing stuff.
If there were expulsions, I can only imagine that the vast majority of major cities in the area are now virtual ghost towns and the populations of the NAN countries are extremely low. If there weren't expulsions, then I can't imagine how the NAN countries function without basically having an apartheid situation, with native americans enjoying vast privileges compared to non-natives.
-- Some Americans and Canadians didn't want to, or couldn't, claim tribal status. They are on reservations. Which is a pretty shitty situation, since Anglo reservations are not sovereign, and they don't really have many protections in the Treaty of Denver (other then they get to stay). So in the Sioux the Anglo "tribe" are not full citizens, can't join the government or military, and are second-class in most respects.
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Given how much its emphasized that nation-states are a joke powerwise next to the corporations in Shadowrun, and given that the corporations are pretty much presented as being run by sociopaths interested only in profit at all costs, you'd think that the moment such policies were adopted the megacorps would either engineer a coup to replace the NAN governments with people more accommodating to their interests or simply isolate the region until a more corporate-friendly government came to power. However helpless the UCAS may be, the NAN can't exactly stand against the united displeasure of the Megacorps, and I find it hard to believe
The Megacorps aren't a united front, unless in the face of an existential threat like the bug spirits. Any plan that involves not selling stuff to people fails, because one of them violates the pact and sells to the isolated country. (And meanwhile another of the Megas is selling through backdoor channels as well)
The Aztlan/Amazonia ongoing series of conflicts is what happens when a Mega tries to use force to take back some of the "magical wild lands." I think these areas are meant to represent Nature striking back at the infliction that is the Sprawls. Whatever forces a Megacorp or government musters, Nature says frag you and strikes back in the form of Feathered Serpents, Talking giant snakes, wild nature spirits, toxic eco shamans, and various para critters. Areas like Amazonia and Wild Siberia aren't going anywhere. The bigger the Sprawls get, the stronger these wild areas become is my theory.
There's also an econnomic aspect to the wild areas. Their pure nature leads to very powerful virgin talesma. That would go away, even if they could be ravaged by the Megacorps. So some of the magic supplier divisions of corps have a reason to preserve them. I'd imagine Wuxing would be big time into that. Probaly the Draco Foundation too.
It's kind of interesting, in that SR's world isn't a one note Dystopia.
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Yep, I was just thinking economics. Set aside the military stuff for a second, since it's lost a bit of weight in a world really owned by megacorps who are all about profit; I have to wonder how well the NAN countries do economically. Just judging from anecdotal evidence in the Denver sourcebook, the NAN seem to be big on 'back to nature', with part of the provisions of the Treaty of Denver being that a good chunk of the city (basically, everything built after 1987) be bulldozed so that nature can flourish or some such. Makes sense for a group that basically just won a war owing to nature spirits.
-- Actually, most of the NAN nations are very pro business. Just pro THEIR businesses, and they generally don't recognize the Business Recognition Accords. So they keep a leash on the megacorps to some extent. What happened to Tsimshian is a recent case example of why they need to do that.
But from an economic viewpoint, I can't help but wonder what the megacorps think of virtually the entire North American west outside of California (CFS) and Oregon (Tir Tairngire) adopting such a business-unfriendly policy.
-- Many in the NAN don't want what the corps are selling anyways. Shadowrun megacorps are not purely profit-driven, but they certainly would prefer to go after low-hanging markets before trying to force the NAN open and risk a neo-SAIM.
Given how much its emphasized that nation-states are a joke powerwise next to the corporations in Shadowrun,
-- I don't think this is as well-supported in canon as you may think :)
and given that the corporations are pretty much presented as being run by sociopaths interested only in profit at all costs, you'd think that the moment such policies were adopted the megacorps would either engineer a coup to replace the NAN governments with people more accommodating to their interests or simply isolate the region until a more corporate-friendly government came to power.
-- The people you need to win over are not the politicians, it's the shamans. Good luck with that. Tsimshian was a bit of a special case because there were so many factions that could be turned against each other. Some of the NANs don't even have a functional central government except in name (SSC, TPA).
However helpless the UCAS may be, the NAN can't exactly stand against the united displeasure of the Megacorps, and I find it hard to believe those corporations would tolerate the American west being allowed to lapse back into wilderness because nature is good and cities are bad.
-- SR corps are working on this 'problem' I'm sure. And the UCAS government can, and has, stood up to the corps before. The UCAS could end the Corporate Court at will. The threat of an Omega Sanction is about as hollow as the Great Ghost Dance, these days.
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MAGIC!
That's literally the only way the original PCC could even exist, let alone be the second-largest economy in the world behind Japan in 2050 and eventually take over southern California, some of central California, and eventually the Ute Nation. Because without magic or a miracle there will not be enough water in New Mexico to sustain Santa Fe, let alone Albuquerque or anything else drawing water from the Rio Grande aquifer by 2050.
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MAGIC!
That's literally the only way the original PCC could even exist, let alone be the second-largest economy in the world behind Japan in 2050 and eventually take over southern California, some of central California, and eventually the Ute Nation. Because without magic or a miracle there will not be enough water in New Mexico to sustain Santa Fe, let alone Albuquerque or anything else drawing water from the Rio Grande aquifer by 2050.
;D Okay, that's one way of looking at it. Another is to realize that all citizens of the PCC are company shareholders, which also means that most corporations in the PCC could be considered subsidiaries of the PCC. An amusing, if slightly screwy way to run a country. But since the PCC is comprised of several tribes that generally didn't get along, it makes sense to come up with some gimmick that would give everyone a stake in the government that wouldn't seem to be obviously trampling on one tribe's rights.
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Most corporations in PCC are subsidiaries of the PCC, or at least partially owned by it because the PCC government owns stock in every domestic corporation.
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MAGIC!
That's literally the only way the original PCC could even exist, let alone be the second-largest economy in the world behind Japan in 2050 and eventually take over southern California, some of central California, and eventually the Ute Nation. Because without magic or a miracle there will not be enough water in New Mexico to sustain Santa Fe, let alone Albuquerque or anything else drawing water from the Rio Grande aquifer by 2050.
Part of teh Rio Gambit, there, was that the Rio Grande had been churning out more water than usual, due to some magical 'refilling' or as a result of teh messed-up weather patterns in the PCC (Mostly in the former Ute lands) ... regardless, the river's a real river again, full of fresh water which is normally in tight supply. Handing it over to the CAS wouldn't have been a big deal had it not been for the fact of... dude. Water. LOTS of it. And it just fell into our lap? Dude. DUDE.
The PCC's been gobbling people and places up for a while now, and is in serious danger of turning into a native *minority* state. That'll cause issues I bet.
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The Megacorps aren't a united front, unless in the face of an existential threat like the bug spirits. Any plan that involves not selling stuff to people fails, because one of them violates the pact and sells to the isolated country. (And meanwhile another of the Megas is selling through backdoor channels as well)
I never saw anything about a joint-corporate operations against bug spirits (Aztechnology actually even withheld information about bugs for several years). Such threat are more nuisance that can be dealt with with enough firepower. As far as canon goes, the actual existential threat that make the corporate court presents a united front are the disruption of Matrix infrastructure (Winternight), destructive market manipulations (Art Dankwalther) and, most important, the defense of the Corporate Court own relevance, as exemplified by the following cases:
Corporate Download, page 10
> Back in 2045, the Corporate Court finally got aroun to promoting Wuxing from mere multinational to extraterritorial status. At the time, Wuxing had several key port facilities in the Canton Confederation. Some elements of the Canteonese power structre still held a grudge against Wuxing from the old Hong Kong independence days, and refused to acknowledge the corp's new standing. Wuxing demanded that the Court enforce its decree, and within three months the Confederation was reeling from "accidental" port blockages, power outages and food shortages, not to mention increased attacks from freshl armed neighbors. The crisis sparked a power struggle, and te old guard was thrown out. The new regime proved much friendlier to Wuxing and granted it increased privileges along with extraterritoriality.
> HK Kid
Sixth World Almanac, page 146
Rocked by sanctions from the New European Economic Community and the Corporate Court, the French government was forced to make massive cuts to their welfare and public health programs. [...] Megacorporations began closing down their local branches in response to the economic sanctions. Pressing for the repeal of the Loureau Act and formation of several pro-corp lobbyists, the megas left the French economy in tatters. With the nation facing the worst economic conditions since the Crash of ‘29, President Kervelec partially acceded to the Corporate Court and repealed parts of the Loureau Act. Eurocorps have begun to reinvest in France again, and formed extra-territorial compounds throughout the country, many clustered around Lille.
The thing is, the AAA know their seat on the Corporate Court is an essential part of their power. The system relies on the existing and emerging corporations willingly submitting to the corporate court judgments in exchange for the guarantee of extraterritoriality around the world. The biggest threat to the Corporate Court would actually be that a number of large corporations manage to negotiate their own extraterritoriality accords with countries without having to recognize the court authority, deprieving them of their relevance.
-- Actually, most of the NAN nations are very pro business. Just pro THEIR businesses, and they generally don't recognize the Business Recognition Accords. So they keep a leash on the megacorps to some extent.
I would find it doubtful that none of the sourcebooks that cover etheir the BRA or the NAN would mention it. Both Corporate Download and Corporate Guide says only "a few nations" haven't signed the BRA, and list Amazonia, Aztlan, Manchuria, Tir na nOg, Tir Tairngire and Yakut. I think if the author bothered to put Manchuria or Yakut on the list, countries that barely existed in SR canon, if at all, at that point, he would have tell if a North American literally next door also was intended to be on the list.
The Publo is the only NAN in SoNA described to some stringent regulations for corporations, but those are not much harsher than the CAS or the Scandinavian countries, so my take is they are compatible with BRA.
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PCC is organised as a corporation and they have Horizon's HQ within their borders, so you can assume they have signed the BRA.
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It looks to me like one more step toward some type of Stability in the Shadowrun World.
The PCC's National Corporate structure I mean.
When the corps began splintering/spawning into new corps early in the century the UCAS suggested equal partnership for them in the government. Like a State.....
I guess it allowed some type of National involvement with Matrix development. While pretty much averting much of ecological destruction striking more independent nations/states....
Now the PCC is the model for a Nationalization of intrests while global development continues.
Maybe a major Research and development hub for the rest of the world.
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PCC is organised as a corporation and they have Horizon's HQ within their borders, so you can assume they have signed the BRA.
Aztechnology is headquartered in Aztlan, yet Aztlan has still not signed the BRA. So there's a bit of realpolitik in there that muddy things a bit.
The Pueblo Corporate Council itself is... complicated. It's the governement of sovereign state organized as a corporation, per the law of land. It plays by a different of rules. If, say, Wuxing was to disappear or lose its extraterritorial privileges because of a Corporate Court decision, Hong Kong laws would apply again in its headoffice, UCAS law would apply again in its Seattle office, and so on. The Pueblo Corporate Council, even bankrupt, would still be a sovereign nation. If the "Pueblo Corporation" was to petition the corporate court for membership, the court wouldn't have the threat of demotion to keep them in line. Even enforcing an Omega Order would be complicated. On the other hand, the Pueblo have no interest in obtaining extraterritoriality, at least at home: there's no point in ignoring the law of the land when you are the one who make the law and enforce it.
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PCC is organised as a corporation and they have Horizon's HQ within their borders, so you can assume they have signed the BRA.
Aztechnology is headquartered in Aztlan, yet Aztlan has still not signed the BRA. So there's a bit of realpolitik in there that muddy things a bit.
The Pueblo Corporate Council itself is... complicated. It's the governement of sovereign state organized as a corporation, per the law of land. It plays by a different of rules. If, say, Wuxing was to disappear or lose its extraterritorial privileges because of a Corporate Court decision, Hong Kong laws would apply again in its headoffice, UCAS law would apply again in its Seattle office, and so on. The Pueblo Corporate Council, even bankrupt, would still be a sovereign nation. If the "Pueblo Corporation" was to petition the corporate court for membership, the court wouldn't have the threat of demotion to keep them in line. Even enforcing an Omega Order would be complicated. On the other hand, the Pueblo have no interest in obtaining extraterritoriality, at least at home: there's no point in ignoring the law of the land when you are the one who make the law and enforce it.
True the PCC may not e looking for extra privilege through the corpoorate courts. but i think the corporations would be looking to place an interest within a nation strcutured like the PCC. Even though they would be subsidiary within that reigon.
Most corps have the extraterritorality privilege extended to them.
But a whole nation being accepted as a corporation by, lets say the UCAS. where the influence of corps will diminish once the PCC model takes a seat. Will most likely influence others to do the same.
The existing corporate bodies will want to have a presence in the new member structures.
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The NAN generally haven't signed the BRA for one simple reason: They aren't willing to give up their land. They're willing to let corps operate in their borders, but only under a "Buddy system" where they can invest in a locally-owned corp to a certain level (Usually no more than 49% foreign-owned), and never, ever, get Extra-Territorality. NeoNET is the biggest buddy in this, latching on to the tech geniuses of the PCC and Sioux like mad, but they aren't the only ones doing so.
But the NAN members are absolutely against giving up a single blade of grass to "Anglos".
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Another thing the original designers failed to account for is economics. Seriously, look at our own history: when corporations/business owners weren't forced to behave by laws, they seriously took advantage of workers. Long hours, child labor, unsafe conditions(to the point where workers were literally chained inside factories and sometimes burned to death in fires). Then Unions came along, and labor laws. No corporation will ever willingly pay wages or benefits they don't have to, no matter what Libertairians say. In 2070s SR do you think there are any Unions? I doubt it, and even then with extraterritoriality they'd simply ignore any labor laws supporting the Union.
I know things are tough in the SR universe, but not nearly as tough on the working class as they should be if there really were all powerful corporations capable of destroying both Unions and labor laws.
Yes, I am a proud member of Teamsters Local 222. I work part time(20 hrs week) tossing packages for UPS and get paid vacation, personal days, sick days, holidays, and FULL medical for myself and the family. And yes, recently UPS tried to take those benefits away, even after making a record $4 BILLION in proffit last year alone. Guess who protected those benefits? My Union. If UPS were part of Ares, do you think the Teamsters Union would still exist? Not for a second!
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Then Unions came along, and labor laws. No corporation will ever willingly pay wages or benefits they don't have to, no matter what Libertairians say. In 2070s SR do you think there are any Unions? I doubt it, and even then with extraterritoriality they'd simply ignore any labor laws supporting the Union.
That's actually a key feature of the setting, is a lack of unions. The unions and many government services were gutted. The SIN itself is a means of denying government services to a wide portion of the population. The wage slaves indeed do face long work hours, but they are actually sort of the lucky ones. They at least have basic security and SINs. They exchange a lot of freedom for that safety and a semi decent lifestyle. Cameras in your corporate housing are standard.
The Corps in the setting aren't really the same as the corporations we are familiar with. They are oligarchies. It's a dystopia, which means things in the world have gone rotten for the typical person. Try reading the novels "1984" and "A Brave New World." Also the Sprawl trilogy by William Gibson, which is what much of SR's world is based on.
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I agree.
The world setting defines a place where a huge resource, mainly the people, was to be farmed with very little regard for their wellbeing.....
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I would find it doubtful that none of the sourcebooks that cover etheir the BRA or the NAN would mention it. Both Corporate Download and Corporate Guide says only "a few nations" haven't signed the BRA, and list Amazonia, Aztlan, Manchuria, Tir na nOg, Tir Tairngire and Yakut. I think if the author bothered to put Manchuria or Yakut on the list, countries that barely existed in SR canon, if at all, at that point, he would have tell if a North American literally next door also was intended to be on the list.
The Publo is the only NAN in SoNA described to some stringent regulations for corporations, but those are not much harsher than the CAS or the Scandinavian countries, so my take is they are compatible with BRA.
-- Extraterritoriality doesn't jive with canonical statements about land ownership in the SSC, for example. So it's probably another example of authors forgetting that the NAN even existed (which is surprisingly common). With regard to SONA I was under the impression that the NAN in general didn't recognize the BRA. Which is why I made the comment in SONA, p. 119:
Back on the home front, the machinations of daily corporate struggle go on. The SSC has traditionally kept a very firm stance towards allowing extraterritorial megacorps in. The problem isn’t the government itself, it’s finding a tribe that’s willing to surrender some of its land. Even if they’re willing to accept the nuyen, most of the tribes enforce strict environmental and safety standards and practices that most megacorps simply aren’t willing to abide by.
-- So I suppose this is an area of canonical doubt :) I know my design intent was "no BRA" but I thought that was a general NAN rule and didn't need to say that outright for each nation. Something to add to me list of "stuff that needs to be clarified or explained in canon." :)
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What can be said except the NAN concept is pretty much counter revolutionary to the chaos in SR. It would be easy to go back to making them minor storylines in the plot.
Tzeentch:
Are you a author? Do you write game material? 8)
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There are a couple of writers floating around here.
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There are a couple of writers floating around here.
Nice to meet you all.
I am not a writer. ;D
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There are a couple of writers floating around here.
*Yawn* 'Sup?
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Very fascinating thread. One of the few where I have taken the time to read every post.
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How does the NAN Work? Poorly. I'm torn between adding something and not
For my part i would love to see instead of the next major plot point be driven by what the great dragons and immortal elves are up to this week a over arching story about a rebirth of tribal nationalism in some parts of the nan. That in turn causes them to attempt to get out of the BRA which in turn causes the various corporations and their national puppets to start gearing up for war. It would have to be handled extremely carefully but i could definitely make for some very shadowrun material.
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That is the irony of the current 6th world.....
The entire globe is divided into basically individual states with no governing body to unify them. a tribe each.....
The Corporate Court is basicly its own independent tribe with its own intrests as a default tribal council who happens to have jurisdiction over the hunting, fishing, trade, what have you. In other words the Awakend state of being, a tribe that is....
This leaves the individual tribes/states to more or less take what territory they are allowed(Matrix rights, Astral rights) and fend for themselves. No unified system of governance to speak of.....
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-- Extraterritoriality doesn't jive with canonical statements about land ownership in the SSC, for example. So it's probably another example of authors forgetting that the NAN even existed (which is surprisingly common). With regard to SONA I was under the impression that the NAN in general didn't recognize the BRA. Which is why I made the comment in SONA, p. 119:
Back on the home front, the machinations of daily corporate struggle go on. The SSC has traditionally kept a very firm stance towards allowing extraterritorial megacorps in. The problem isn’t the government itself, it’s finding a tribe that’s willing to surrender some of its land. Even if they’re willing to accept the nuyen, most of the tribes enforce strict environmental and safety standards and practices that most megacorps simply aren’t willing to abide by.
-- So I suppose this is an area of canonical doubt :) I know my design intent was "no BRA" but I thought that was a general NAN rule and didn't need to say that outright for each nation. Something to add to me list of "stuff that needs to be clarified or explained in canon." :)
I don't remember land ownership in Salish-Shidhe to have been brought up before Shadows of North America, which was published in 2001, three years after Corporate Download, which first introduced the BRA and the A/AA/AAA ratings were introduced.
Before that, all sourcebooks were written on mere assumptions that the corporate extraterritoriality introduced in the corebook and expanded upon in Corporate Shadowfiles more or less applied to all corporations, everywhere (for instance, it wasn't before Runner Havens that it was actually clealry stated Federated-Boeing had extraterritoriality).
The 1st edition NAN sourcebook doesn't mention a lot of corporate presences in the NAN, and says nothing on extraterritoriality when it does. The Pueblo chapter does describe the business license and annual review system, that "make strictly illegal many of the strong-arm tactics that the big corps use freely everywhere else in the world". Which doesn't strictly ban extraterritoriality, but also suggests said big corps can use such tactics in the rest of the NAN.
Except for Aztechnology, and MCT to a lesser degree, the Big Seven/Eight don't show up a lot in the NAN at that time. But this is likely related to the fact the Big Seven/Eight actually didn't exist as a concept before Corporate Shadowfiles. They were just as absent in The Neo-anarchist Guide to North America.
I don't know if Rob Boyle forgot about the True Essence of the NAN when he made up that excerpt of the few countries who didn't ratified the BRA. In my opinion, the definition of the BRA in Corporate Download is actually loose enough to use SoNA as a basis, on the assumption that all the North American countries except Tir Tairngire ratified them. That is, the BRA set a standard as a lowest common denominator. Seattle and the UCAS may be the default setting and the one we're used to, that doesn't necessarily mean extraterritoriality has to be the same everywhere. I hold the CAS and Pueblo to be examples of what the BRA allow when the government kept corporate privileges to the bare minimum the BRA require.
Story-wise, I find extraterritoriality much more handy as a plot device in the NAN, where the local government has reason to pick on the corporations, than in the UCAS, whose government is supposed to be so much more corrupt than even if they didn't have extraterritoriality, the corporations could still get away with anything they'd do.
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I don't remember land ownership in Salish-Shidhe to have been brought up before Shadows of North America, which was published in 2001, three years after Corporate Download, which first introduced the BRA and the A/AA/AAA ratings were introduced.
-- I don't recall any specifics of what was intended for SONA. I am under the belief that it was something that would have been in the foreword.
The 1st edition NAN sourcebook doesn't mention a lot of corporate presences in the NAN, and says nothing on extraterritoriality when it does. The Pueblo chapter does describe the business license and annual review system, that "make strictly illegal many of the strong-arm tactics that the big corps use freely everywhere else in the world". Which doesn't strictly ban extraterritoriality, but also suggests said big corps can use such tactics in the rest of the NAN.
-- The perception of the corporations changed over time, as did the NAN. The NAN was basically Findley's baby and I wouldn't be surprised if that entire subject was his domain when the early books were written.
I don't know if Rob Boyle forgot about the True Essence of the NAN when he made up that excerpt of the few countries who didn't ratified the BRA. In my opinion, the definition of the BRA in Corporate Download is actually loose enough to use SoNA as a basis, on the assumption that all the North American countries except Tir Tairngire ratified them. That is, the BRA set a standard as a lowest common denominator. Seattle and the UCAS may be the default setting and the one we're used to, that doesn't necessarily mean extraterritoriality has to be the same everywhere. I hold the CAS and Pueblo to be examples of what the BRA allow when the government kept corporate privileges to the bare minimum the BRA require.
-- Recently there was that dragon from Clutch and his land deals in the SSC that had to go through all sorts of rigamarole to be legal.
Story-wise, I find extraterritoriality much more handy as a plot device in the NAN, where the local government has reason to pick on the corporations, than in the UCAS, whose government is supposed to be so much more corrupt than even if they didn't have extraterritoriality, the corporations could still get away with anything they'd do.
-- I just have a really hard time believing that Howling Coyote and the early STC would give the corps the time of day, much less agree to the anti-sovereignty BRA right after they fought a war caused in no small part BY the extraterritorial corporations.
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And remember, when the Ute Nation folded, Aztechnology lost their only major hold in the NAN. The PCC was right quick about kicking them out, to the point of shutting down the Stuffer Shacks.
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-- I just have a really hard time believing that Howling Coyote and the early STC would give the corps the time of day, much less agree to the anti-sovereignty BRA right after they fought a war caused in no small part BY the extraterritorial corporations.
Exactly.
Inferences have to be read in larger context of the setting. The NAN recognizing corporate extraterritoriality short of being forced to at gunpoint strikes me as quite unlikely. And that is what I suppose it took to get extraterritoriality in the NAN states that did recognize it according to Corp Shadowfiles.
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Note that even if they don't recognize extraterritoriality the corps still have a lot of clout. In the Sioux (heartland of the NAN), corporations "or their legal designates" can purchase heavy ordnance and even tanks! (NAN1, pp. 99-100) :o
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Indeed.
And even if they do recognize extraterritoriality, there are plenty of nations that do so with (sometimes severe) caveats.
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Tir Tairngir and Aztlan being two prime examples of this.
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Tir Tairngir and Aztlan being two prime examples of this.
Examples of of choosing not to recongize the BRA?
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Yep. Of course Aztlan is pretty much owned by Aztechnology, and Tir Tirnagre only recently allowed Horizon in.
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-- Recently there was that dragon from Clutch and his land deals in the SSC that had to go through all sorts of rigamarole to be legal.
The BRA objet is to give AA and AAA corporations specific rights. It does not apply to dragon and whatever small business they happen to use as a front.
Proteus builds an undersea facility near Vancouver, in the Strait of Georgia (which it not large enough to allow for it to be in international waters). Wuxing is seriously considering Vancouver as an alternative to Seattle for building a new tower. So the Salish-Shidhe doesn't not seem to be very hostile to large corporations.
If anything, a stronger case to be done to claim the Salish-Shidhe may not have signed the BRA, but only negotiate on a case by case basis, would be in Seattle Sourcebook, where it says Federated Boeing had "separate negotiations with the Salish-Shidhe Council" to secure "the company's major plants and facilities, as well as the continued supply of vital aluminum and special airspace privileges." The use of the expression "separate negotiations" clearly mean no other corporation was involved in these. Obviously, it wasn't intended to mean anything regarding the BRA, which were imagined ten years later.
But again, signing the BRA never implied Seattle-like free reign extraterritoriality. CAS, Québec, Switzerland have signed them and enforce stringent rules. In the two latter, the government could establish only a handful of zones for which megacorporations must apply to establish extraterritorial facilities.
It actually seems the BRA enforce specific privileges inside area owned, leased or rent by corporations, but still allow states to restrict what the corporations can buy, lease or rent, as done in the CAS. The Salish-Shidhe could very well fall into that category, being very cautious about who buy lands precisely because once the deal is done and ownership is transfered, BRA-inspired law would kick in.
Based on the list of countries that did not sign the BRA, it seems what keep them out rather is their regulation regarding company ownership, restricting foreign shareholders to remain under 50%.
-- I just have a really hard time believing that Howling Coyote and the early STC would give the corps the time of day, much less agree to the anti-sovereignty BRA right after they fought a war caused in no small part BY the extraterritorial corporations.
Daniel Coleman resigned from the Sovereign Tribal Council in 2037, after the Tsimshian left, as he found himself "unable to maintain the solidarity of the organization he had brought into existence". By the time the Corporate Court put the BRA on the table in 2042, the Ghost Dance War began 28 years ago, the Treaty of Denver was signed 24 years ago. Except for its youngest members, the original generation of Coleman's companions would be on the way out as well, simply because of their age. Besides, the corporations can wait (as exemplified by Tir Tairngire, which they hope would sign the BRA soon by 2072).
And remember, when the Ute Nation folded, Aztechnology lost their only major hold in the NAN. The PCC was right quick about kicking them out, to the point of shutting down the Stuffer Shacks.
Aztechnology also has a major presence in the Algonkin-Manitou, where the government relied on ACS troops to quell down the elven Manitou uprising.
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About the time before the Treaty of Denver.....
The STC were for many years involved in skirmish and terorist actions with elements partially funded by the Corps. Who (the corps) could not be openly incriminated by the UCAS within their borders as an treaty of sorts between them.
You could say there was no avoiding the conflict leading up to the signing of the Treaty of Denver....
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The BRA objet is to give AA and AAA corporations specific rights. It does not apply to dragon and whatever small business they happen to use as a front.
-- The point was that extraterritoriality conflicts with what we know of how property is handled, in the SSC at least. SONA, p. 119 is rather vague and could be interpreted either way. Honestly, I don't think it matters too much.
Proteus builds an undersea facility near Vancouver, in the Strait of Georgia (which it not large enough to allow for it to be in international waters). Wuxing is seriously considering Vancouver as an alternative to Seattle for building a new tower. So the Salish-Shidhe doesn't not seem to be very hostile to large corporations.
-- And that's not what SONA claims, at least. Just that most megacorps don't want to abide by their strict environmental and safety standards. Extraterritoriality doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want, as the second your problems escape the "extraterritorial cone" you are liable (Corporate Shadowfiles, p. 22).
If anything, a stronger case to be done to claim the Salish-Shidhe may not have signed the BRA, but only negotiate on a case by case basis, would be in Seattle Sourcebook, where it says Federated Boeing had "separate negotiations with the Salish-Shidhe Council" to secure "the company's major plants and facilities, as well as the continued supply of vital aluminum and special airspace privileges." The use of the expression "separate negotiations" clearly mean no other corporation was involved in these. Obviously, it wasn't intended to mean anything regarding the BRA, which were imagined ten years later.
-- Probably.
But again, signing the BRA never implied Seattle-like free reign extraterritoriality. CAS, Québec, Switzerland have signed them and enforce stringent rules. In the two latter, the government could establish only a handful of zones for which megacorporations must apply to establish extraterritorial facilities.
It actually seems the BRA enforce specific privileges inside area owned, leased or rent by corporations, but still allow states to restrict what the corporations can buy, lease or rent, as done in the CAS. The Salish-Shidhe could very well fall into that category, being very cautious about who buy lands precisely because once the deal is done and ownership is transfered, BRA-inspired law would kick in.
Based on the list of countries that did not sign the BRA, it seems what keep them out rather is their regulation regarding company ownership, restricting foreign shareholders to remain under 50%.
-- Aye, in the limited sense extraterritoriality is just a really aggressive form of private property laws. Maybe in the SSC you have to registered as a tribal band or something, as that would be the closest legal construct for legally independent entities. (Just using the SSC as an example where I know the design intent, heh).
-- I just have a really hard time believing that Howling ]Daniel Coleman resigned from the Sovereign Tribal Council in 2037, after the Tsimshian left, as he found himself "unable to maintain the solidarity of the organization he had brought into existence". By the time the Corporate Court put the BRA on the table in 2042, the Ghost Dance War began 28 years ago, the Treaty of Denver was signed 24 years ago. Except for its youngest members, the original generation of Coleman's companions would be on the way out as well, simply because of their age. Besides, the corporations can wait (as exemplified by Tir Tairngire, which they hope would sign the BRA soon by 2072).
--Most of his companions would only be like in their 40s or 50s. Hardly retirement age for politicians :)
Aztechnology also has a major presence in the Algonkin-Manitou, where the government relied on ACS troops to quell down the elven Manitou uprising.
-- The lack of any resolution or movement on that plot thread is another problem lol. The last update was in Clutch I think? With Surehand showing up to back the elven separatists for his own aims?
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--Most of his companions would only be like in their 40s or 50s. Hardly retirement age for politicians :)
The thing is, we have strictly no idea of how things went before, during and after the Ghost Dance War.
What did happen to the original leadership of the SAIM? Were they arrested in the 2009-2011? If so, chances are the US authorities would put them into maximum security prisons and not just in the internment camps. After escaping from the Abilene camps, did Coleman use his magical powers to free them, or rather took advantage of their absence to take control. Did he put the same guy back in the leadership positions, or did he replace them with the most loyal, or those with the most strategic skills, or the most magically powerful? How old were they? Somewhat significant, since culturally, most tribes tend to value the elders. Did all the tribes instantly put all their faith in those who had magic powers?
Coleman is called a hero because he won the war, but you have to remember he first was a hardliner, calling for all non-Amerindian to leave North America, first alienating the most soft-spoken ones who only wanted freedom and keeping the mining corporations out of their lands. Then he signed the Treaty of Denver, he accepted reclaiming only half of North America, this time alienating the hardliners. The companions Coleman chose when he had to fought a war maybe did not share all his views on the peace negotiations, let alone society matters or economical issues.
For the following decades, almost all politicians in the NAN would be veterans. Actually, it would probably be difficult to have a career if you weren't one. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would actually try to paint themselves as one of Howling Coyote's companions.
Basically, it's the same thing that happened in every country that fought a liberation war. And where democracy works, you see that no matter the age at which you started, staying in charge for more than three decades is very rare. Too many voters resent you for something you'd have done at some point.
In the NAN, and more specifically in the Salish-Shidhe Council, I would hazard that the politicians who came up with the idea to fully open the border to elves, dwarfs, orks and trolls and allow them to create their own tribe, had something of career turning point when the Cenesté tribe seceded, taking a third of the territory with them, and dozen of council border guards were killed by a bunch of teenage elven insurgents.
It maybe would actually make more sense that the old leaders that fought alongside Coleman and were in charge in the Salish-Shidhe Council between 2018 and 2036 were rather more into realpolitik and sympathetic enough to corporations, jumpstarting the SSC biotech industry and willing to open the border to metahuman labor force. It's the new generation who replaced them when they got ousted for the Cenesté debacle who either accepted or refused the BRA.
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The thing is, we have strictly no idea of how things went before, during and after the Ghost Dance War.
-- We probably never will get a detailed accounting of the War or the immediate aftermath, if just because the origin story of Shadowrun was never intended to be something you subjected to much scrutiny.
What did happen to the original leadership of the SAIM? Were they arrested in the 2009-2011? If so, chances are the US authorities would put them into maximum security prisons and not just in the internment camps. After escaping from the Abilene camps, did Coleman use his magical powers to free them, or rather took advantage of their absence to take control. Did he put the same guy back in the leadership positions, or did he replace them with the most loyal, or those with the most strategic skills, or the most magically powerful? How old were they? Somewhat significant, since culturally, most tribes tend to value the elders. Did all the tribes instantly put all their faith in those who had magic powers?
-- The people calling the shots after the Awakening was the Great Ghost Dance Prophet and his war shamans. The umbrella organization of the SAIM probably stayed relevant though. The war shamans had the only direct line to the spirits, which would have put them in a position of moral authority over mundane elders. Hard to out-elder the spirits themselves.
Coleman is called a hero because he won the war, but you have to remember he first was a hardliner, calling for all non-Amerindian to leave North America, first alienating the most soft-spoken ones who only wanted freedom and keeping the mining corporations out of their lands. Then he signed the Treaty of Denver, he accepted reclaiming only half of North America, this time alienating the hardliners. The companions Coleman chose when he had to fought a war maybe did not share all his views on the peace negotiations, let alone society matters or economical issues.
-- Aye. I hope to explore that at some point. Especially his "betrayal" of the Eastern tribes and what happened to his inner circle.
-- We know for a fact that some elements of the Ghost Dance were spread by some parties (probably not Thais) and the most logical source would be the ones who had to be taught at least parts of the great ritual. I doubt they were all monolithic in their opinions, even if they intentionally avoided being in any overt leadership positions. There's also the Ghost Dance (or whatever that really was) and the business with Twist. Coleman wouldn't give out the secrets of the Dance but this newbie Anglo shows up and suddenly he's leading one?
-- Keep in mind that the Ghost Dance as practiced by Coleman has very few connection to Wovoka's original Ghost Dance. :)
For the following decades, almost all politicians in the NAN would be veterans. Actually, it would probably be difficult to have a career if you weren't one. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would actually try to paint themselves as one of Howling Coyote's companions.
-- Maybe. Most of the NANs appear to have been quick to discard Coleman's political goals ASAP.
Basically, it's the same thing that happened in every country that fought a liberation war. And where democracy works, you see that no matter the age at which you started, staying in charge for more than three decades is very rare. Too many voters resent you for something you'd have done at some point.
-- Most of the NAN is not democratic. The Sioux are a good example.
In the NAN, and more specifically in the Salish-Shidhe Council, I would hazard that the politicians who came up with the idea to fully open the border to elves, dwarfs, orks and trolls and allow them to create their own tribe, had something of career turning point when the Cenesté tribe seceded, taking a third of the territory with them, and dozen of council border guards were killed by a bunch of teenage elven insurgents.
-- That event basically spelled the doom of the STC's relevance as well, I think. At least, that's what I'm assuming based on their utter lack of impact on the setting :)
-- I think Coleman and the Dancers probably had some seriously rose-colored goggles on when it came to the metahumans, and probably were not told about the Immortals by either Coleman or their old pal Thais.
It maybe would actually make more sense that the old leaders that fought alongside Coleman and were in charge in the Salish-Shidhe Council between 2018 and 2036 were rather more into realpolitik and sympathetic enough to corporations, jumpstarting the SSC biotech industry and willing to open the border to metahuman labor force. It's the new generation who replaced them when they got ousted for the Cenesté debacle who either accepted or refused the BRA.
-- Well, I'll certainly be much more careful about how I spell this out in the future :)~ But yeah, I think some form of recognition of the BRA is supported by canon, even if that was not necessarily the design intent.
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-- We probably never will get a detailed accounting of the War or the immediate aftermath, if just because the origin story of Shadowrun was never intended to be something you subjected to much scrutiny.
I think it could made one great novel, following one of Coleman's companions during the war, with the doubts, the internal conflicts, the treasons... It's just that publishing a story about US concentration camps and an insurgency in the Rocky Mountains would likely put you on a FBI watchlist.
Or maybe a teenage version of it, with a young girl that awaken shamanic powers and fall in love with a spirit.
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What is the NAN's relationship with Aztlan? and Amazonia?
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Aztlan used to be part of the NAN. Indeed, it's one of the big reasons why Latinos were given Native status across North America. They later broke off, and have since been fair-weather friends, allied when it suits them, opposed when it doesn't. Currently, they're more cozy than usual, thanks to the Rio Gambit and their food shortages; they've been hurling money at the NAN to buy as much food as possible from their "long-standing and loyal friends", who, in turn, are taking new looks at Aztechnology military assets after the Sirrurg fight.
Amazonia and the NAN have had long diplomatic ties, but have never gone much further than that... Amazonia has little need for trade, after all, and the Aztlan situation (Get your cousin under control!) has long been a thorn in their side.
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What is the NAN's relationship with Aztlan? and Amazonia?
The Sovereign Tribal Council doesn't appear to deal with Aztlan much, so it's a nation-by-nation relationship.
Athabaskan Council: Aztechnology has major investments. So neutral relationship, just business. (SONA)
AMC: Aztechnology supports the government against the Manitou rebels. Very close relations. (SONA)
PCC: Aztlan was conducting spoiling operations against them for quite some time, in an attempt to get them to pull out of the Mojave, and the PCC reciprocated by booting them out of the country (SONA). Recently Aztlan exchanged a portion of their territory in former western Texas for something from the PCC (Storm Front). This was land that Aztlan conquered in 2035 when Texas tried to go it alone as a separate country.
SSC: No particular ties. Aztechnology had stripped the Olympia office of personnel because of problems elsewhere but it doesn't have bad relations or anything. (SONA)
Sioux: Dislikes Aztlan. The dragon Henequen supports anti-Aztlan movements. (SONA) Probably dislikes Aztlan more because it meddles in the same places the Sioux do, so they're competition.
TPA: I can't think of any relationship. Maybe a few small business deals.
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Just to see an alternative geo-political plot get attention in shadowrun is pretty exciting......
I always felt that the catastrophic changes described within the game world were avoidable, in a roleplay sense.
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and to make things even more interesting, a lot of people have to be getting Nervous about who is going to be claiming Mount Shasta form themselves.....
If Lofwyr claimed it....two prongs ofa very nasty dragon combined with GhostWalkers antipathy for All things Aztlan. Plus Siggug's devistation of Azzie Ag assets....the Azzies gotta be going "oh Crap". given thier losses against Sirrug
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At this point when I see the thread title I just think, "Quite well for our purposes."
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Also the population of the UCAS is much lower due to VITAS and things like that. In fact, the full world population has gone down due to that. So having a lot of empty space and some ghost towns is something you will also see outside of the NAN.
This is a good point. The three waves of VITAS did a number on the population. We're talking Black Plague levels of death in some areas. Not as bad in most of the US, but it still wasn't pretty. Add to that the fact that large portions of the US even today is wide-open spaces, along with what other people have already said, and it becomes much more plausible. For instance, the majority of Oregon was basically depopulated by the various waves of VITAS and the war that brought the NAN into being, which is why the elves were able to step in and take over.
I will never understand why people think that those in death camps would fare better then the general population against a super plague.
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Because the first round of VITAS was before the Ghost Dance War.
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And because the camps were isolated from the world—possibly even more remote and isolated than most of already isolated western reservations.
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I will never understand why people think that those in death camps would fare better then the general population against a super plague.
-- Because it actually says they did in the canon material?
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Also the population of the UCAS is much lower due to VITAS and things like that. In fact, the full world population has gone down due to that. So having a lot of empty space and some ghost towns is something you will also see outside of the NAN.
This is a good point. The three waves of VITAS did a number on the population. We're talking Black Plague levels of death in some areas. Not as bad in most of the US, but it still wasn't pretty. Add to that the fact that large portions of the US even today is wide-open spaces, along with what other people have already said, and it becomes much more plausible. For instance, the majority of Oregon was basically depopulated by the various waves of VITAS and the war that brought the NAN into being, which is why the elves were able to step in and take over.
I will never understand why people think that those in death camps would fare better then the general population against a super plague.
That is a pretty standard response to a epidemic, Isolation....
If bed rest and juice doesn't help then a larger area is isolated.
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Also the population of the UCAS is much lower due to VITAS and things like that. In fact, the full world population has gone down due to that. So having a lot of empty space and some ghost towns is something you will also see outside of the NAN.
This is a good point. The three waves of VITAS did a number on the population. We're talking Black Plague levels of death in some areas. Not as bad in most of the US, but it still wasn't pretty. Add to that the fact that large portions of the US even today is wide-open spaces, along with what other people have already said, and it becomes much more plausible. For instance, the majority of Oregon was basically depopulated by the various waves of VITAS and the war that brought the NAN into being, which is why the elves were able to step in and take over.
I will never understand why people think that those in death camps would fare better then the general population against a super plague.
As mentioned by others, isolated camps are, well, isolated. If something starts within the camp, then yes, it will spread like wildfire. But the biggest reason why a disease can spread to global pandemic levels like VITAS did is because of MOVEMENT. Namely, people moving from one area to the other, acting as carriers infecting those around them, whether knowingly or not. There's a reason why most biological terror simulations involve transportation hubs, you know. The camps were isolated places, where few people bothered to go if they had any choice at all. Not as much movement means not as much chance for external diseases to spread into the camps.
Urban areas are the places hardest hit by any plague when pre-existing medicines don't work. Sure, if someone in rural or isolated areas contracts the same plague, they're utterly boned, but they're far less likely to be exposed to the plague to begin with.
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And the rumor the Authors suggested the VITAS might be Matrix associated......
If the spread of the epidemic can't be controlled another option might be releasing people into the population and tracking everything they do. So is it the Virus or the vector that you have to fight.......
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So, vector for VITAS and a Vector plan making the Matrix could be one in the same....
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And the rumor the Authors suggested the VITAS might be Matrix associated......
-- I hope that was never seriously suggested.
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No, but it's an example of the rumors that were flying around when the first wave hit. Nobody knew what it was, or what was causing it.
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Sure is interesting coming back and reading this again all these years later in 2024, especially with how I have seen the responses change over that time to the topic of the uneven distribution of magic and its impact on improving the sovereignty and fortunes of populations targeted for colonialism and genocide.
Even with the addition of fun novels like Blackbird 1, 2, and 3 ... which also featured events from Cutting Black, I keep hoping we might see NAN vol 3 2080s / SONA 2080s with First Nations authors. Why should Marvel/Disney with projects like Prey, Reservation Dogs, What If...? Kohora, and Echo get to have all the fun when I know Shadowrun gave Landback a shot in the 1990s.
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With the new borders, covering the NAN nations would definitely be interesting.
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FWIW, Shadows in Focus: Sioux Nation (a 5e pdf only publication), lists the 2075 population of the Sioux Nation at 6 950 000. Of which 63% human (lower than most areas I think), and 80% living in urban centres (Cheyenne being 2.9 million of that.
Without cutting and pasting too much info, it does also state that 65% declared as part of one of the 20 official tribes forming the Sioux, and 15% declared "official resident", with that latter being made up mostly of people on the anglo reservations and skilled immigrants who haven't applied to become full citizens. (also 15% declined to reply, which may include a lot of more or less non-tribal types?)
How did the populations get so big? Probably some hand-wavium for sure, but also that during the purges of natives in the early 2000s they were rounding up not just people with official native status, but anyone who seemed to have native blood or showed too much sympathy. I suspect it became a bit of a witch hunt. If you were in one of the internment camps, the NAN was likely to take you. And as others have said, they knew they needed population (or some people thought that anyway) so they were motivated to find ways to get people admitted who wanted to be there and who supported the new governments.
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FWIW, Shadows in Focus: Sioux Nation (a 5e pdf only publication), lists the 2075 population of the Sioux Nation at 6 950 000. Of which 63% human (lower than most areas I think), and 80% living in urban centres (Cheyenne being 2.9 million of that.
O.o 2.9 Million in Cheyenne? It's like 65k these days. 2.9 Million is more than the modern day Denver metro area. Wyoming, Montana, North and South Dakota and a fair bit of Nebraska all moved to Cheyenne?
I really gotta read the fluff more....
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It does seem like a lot. I assume that the intent was to make it large enough to viably support a shadowrunning scene?
But on the suspension of disbelief side, sure, on the one hand it has about 60 years of being the capital, and that will draw in people. But on the other hand Ottawa-Gatineau has almost 160 years of being the capital of Canada (national population about 40 million now) and it has about half of that population. I guess in the Sioux Nation there isn't as much competition from larger cities already existing.
Or to look at something maybe more comparable, Taiwan had a huge population inflow following the KMT withdrawal to there after losing the Chinese civil war about 80 years ago, and the island population has grown substantially since then too, going from around 7.5 million in 1950 to about 24 million now. So it is a country that had to urbanize quickly and build a lot of housing, etc, even more than the Sioux. The capital, Taipei, is now about 2.6 million but the greater sprawl is about 7.5 million. So about a third of the population, and about equal to the population of the country 70 years ago.
So now I'm maybe convincing myself that the Cheyenne numbers are not entirely crazy, assuming:
- There was a lot of immigration into the Sioux Nation (between people with thin claims to tribal blood, people from other NAN countries thinking life would be better in the Sioux nation, metahumans who were accepted, etc.)
- The Sioux government chose to build much of the needed housing in Cheyenne. Likely either government owned building projects or sweet government contracts to mega-corps or giving sweet concessions to mega-corps to develop certain resources provided they also provided housing for the employees and extended families in Cheyenne
- A lot of high density, cheaper to build, housing. A lot of apartment blocks or something like that. Land they have, but there is a cost to every wall so either people likely have to live quite communally or a lot of apartment buildings were built, because there just would not have been the capital to make that many house.