[Nath]

--Most of his companions would only be like in their 40s or 50s. Hardly retirement age for politicians

The thing is, we have strictly no idea of how things went before, during and after the Ghost Dance War.

What did happen to the original leadership of the SAIM? Were they arrested in the 2009-2011? If so, chances are the US authorities would put them into maximum security prisons and not just in the internment camps. After escaping from the Abilene camps, did Coleman use his magical powers to free them, or rather took advantage of their absence to take control. Did he put the same guy back in the leadership positions, or did he replace them with the most loyal, or those with the most strategic skills, or the most magically powerful? How old were they? Somewhat significant, since culturally, most tribes tend to value the elders. Did all the tribes instantly put all their faith in those who had magic powers?

Coleman is called a hero because he won the war, but you have to remember he first was a hardliner, calling for all non-Amerindian to leave North America, first alienating the most soft-spoken ones who only wanted freedom and keeping the mining corporations out of their lands. Then he signed the Treaty of Denver, he accepted reclaiming only half of North America, this time alienating the hardliners. The companions Coleman chose when he had to fought a war maybe did not share all his views on the peace negotiations, let alone society matters or economical issues.

For the following decades, almost all politicians in the NAN would be veterans. Actually, it would probably be difficult to have a career if you weren't one. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would actually try to paint themselves as one of Howling Coyote's companions.

Basically, it's the same thing that happened in every country that fought a liberation war. And where democracy works, you see that no matter the age at which you started, staying in charge for more than three decades is very rare. Too many voters resent you for something you'd have done at some point.

In the NAN, and more specifically in the Salish-Shidhe Council, I would hazard that the politicians who came up with the idea to fully open the border to elves, dwarfs, orks and trolls and allow them to create their own tribe, had something of career turning point when the Cenesté tribe seceded, taking a third of the territory with them, and dozen of council border guards were killed by a bunch of teenage elven insurgents.
It maybe would actually make more sense that the old leaders that fought alongside Coleman and were in charge in the Salish-Shidhe Council between 2018 and 2036 were rather more into realpolitik and sympathetic enough to corporations, jumpstarting the SSC biotech industry and willing to open the border to metahuman labor force. It's the new generation who replaced them when they got ousted for the Cenesté debacle who either accepted or refused the BRA.

[Tzeentch]

The thing is, we have strictly no idea of how things went before, during and after the Ghost Dance War.

-- We probably never will get a detailed accounting of the War or the immediate aftermath, if just because the origin story of Shadowrun was never intended to be something you subjected to much scrutiny.

What did happen to the original leadership of the SAIM? Were they arrested in the 2009-2011? If so, chances are the US authorities would put them into maximum security prisons and not just in the internment camps. After escaping from the Abilene camps, did Coleman use his magical powers to free them, or rather took advantage of their absence to take control. Did he put the same guy back in the leadership positions, or did he replace them with the most loyal, or those with the most strategic skills, or the most magically powerful? How old were they? Somewhat significant, since culturally, most tribes tend to value the elders. Did all the tribes instantly put all their faith in those who had magic powers?

-- The people calling the shots after the Awakening was the Great Ghost Dance Prophet and his war shamans. The umbrella organization of the SAIM probably stayed relevant though. The war shamans had the only direct line to the spirits, which would have put them in a position of moral authority over mundane elders. Hard to out-elder the spirits themselves.

Coleman is called a hero because he won the war, but you have to remember he first was a hardliner, calling for all non-Amerindian to leave North America, first alienating the most soft-spoken ones who only wanted freedom and keeping the mining corporations out of their lands. Then he signed the Treaty of Denver, he accepted reclaiming only half of North America, this time alienating the hardliners. The companions Coleman chose when he had to fought a war maybe did not share all his views on the peace negotiations, let alone society matters or economical issues.

-- Aye. I hope to explore that at some point. Especially his "betrayal" of the Eastern tribes and what happened to his inner circle.
-- We know for a fact that some elements of the Ghost Dance were spread by some parties (probably not Thais) and the most logical source would be the ones who had to be taught at least parts of the great ritual. I doubt they were all monolithic in their opinions, even if they intentionally avoided being in any overt leadership positions. There's also the Ghost Dance (or whatever that really was) and the business with Twist. Coleman wouldn't give out the secrets of the Dance but this newbie Anglo shows up and suddenly he's leading one?
-- Keep in mind that the Ghost Dance as practiced by Coleman has very few connection to Wovoka's original Ghost Dance.

For the following decades, almost all politicians in the NAN would be veterans. Actually, it would probably be difficult to have a career if you weren't one. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would actually try to paint themselves as one of Howling Coyote's companions.

-- Maybe. Most of the NANs appear to have been quick to discard Coleman's political goals ASAP.

Basically, it's the same thing that happened in every country that fought a liberation war. And where democracy works, you see that no matter the age at which you started, staying in charge for more than three decades is very rare. Too many voters resent you for something you'd have done at some point.

-- Most of the NAN is not democratic. The Sioux are a good example.

In the NAN, and more specifically in the Salish-Shidhe Council, I would hazard that the politicians who came up with the idea to fully open the border to elves, dwarfs, orks and trolls and allow them to create their own tribe, had something of career turning point when the Cenesté tribe seceded, taking a third of the territory with them, and dozen of council border guards were killed by a bunch of teenage elven insurgents.

-- That event basically spelled the doom of the STC's relevance as well, I think. At least, that's what I'm assuming based on their utter lack of impact on the setting
-- I think Coleman and the Dancers probably had some seriously rose-colored goggles on when it came to the metahumans, and probably were not told about the Immortals by either Coleman or their old pal Thais.

It maybe would actually make more sense that the old leaders that fought alongside Coleman and were in charge in the Salish-Shidhe Council between 2018 and 2036 were rather more into realpolitik and sympathetic enough to corporations, jumpstarting the SSC biotech industry and willing to open the border to metahuman labor force. It's the new generation who replaced them when they got ousted for the Cenesté debacle who either accepted or refused the BRA.

-- Well, I'll certainly be much more careful about how I spell this out in the future ~ But yeah, I think some form of recognition of the BRA is supported by canon, even if that was not necessarily the design intent.

[Nath]

-- We probably never will get a detailed accounting of the War or the immediate aftermath, if just because the origin story of Shadowrun was never intended to be something you subjected to much scrutiny.

I think it could made one great novel, following one of Coleman's companions during the war, with the doubts, the internal conflicts, the treasons... It's just that publishing a story about US concentration camps and an insurgency in the Rocky Mountains would likely put you on a FBI watchlist.

Or maybe a teenage version of it, with a young girl that awaken shamanic powers and fall in love with a spirit.

[grid_roamer]

What is the NAN's relationship with Aztlan? and Amazonia?

[Wakshaani]

Aztlan used to be part of the NAN. Indeed, it's one of the big reasons why Latinos were given Native status across North America. They later broke off, and have since been fair-weather friends, allied when it suits them, opposed when it doesn't. Currently, they're more cozy than usual, thanks to the Rio Gambit and their food shortages; they've been hurling money at the NAN to buy as much food as possible from their "long-standing and loyal friends", who, in turn, are taking new looks at Aztechnology military assets after the Sirrurg fight.

Amazonia and the NAN have had long diplomatic ties, but have never gone much further than that... Amazonia has little need for trade, after all, and the Aztlan situation (Get your cousin under control!) has long been a thorn in their side.

[Tzeentch]

What is the NAN's relationship with Aztlan? and Amazonia?

The Sovereign Tribal Council doesn't appear to deal with Aztlan much, so it's a nation-by-nation relationship.

Athabaskan Council: Aztechnology has major investments. So neutral relationship, just business. (SONA)
AMC: Aztechnology supports the government against the Manitou rebels. Very close relations. (SONA)
PCC: Aztlan was conducting spoiling operations against them for quite some time, in an attempt to get them to pull out of the Mojave, and the PCC reciprocated by booting them out of the country (SONA). Recently Aztlan exchanged a portion of their territory in former western Texas for something from the PCC (Storm Front). This was land that Aztlan conquered in 2035 when Texas tried to go it alone as a separate country.
SSC: No particular ties. Aztechnology had stripped the Olympia office of personnel because of problems elsewhere but it doesn't have bad relations or anything. (SONA)
Sioux: Dislikes Aztlan. The dragon Henequen supports anti-Aztlan movements. (SONA) Probably dislikes Aztlan more because it meddles in the same places the Sioux do, so they're competition.
TPA: I can't think of any relationship. Maybe a few small business deals.

[grid_roamer]

Just to see an alternative geo-political plot get attention in shadowrun is pretty exciting......

I always felt that the catastrophic changes described within the game world were avoidable, in a roleplay sense.

[TheWanderingJewels]

and to make things even more interesting, a lot of people have to be getting Nervous about who is going to be claiming Mount Shasta form themselves.....

If Lofwyr claimed it....two prongs ofa very nasty dragon combined with GhostWalkers antipathy for All things Aztlan. Plus Siggug's devistation of Azzie Ag assets....the Azzies gotta be going "oh Crap". given thier losses against Sirrug

[Crimsondude]

At this point when I see the thread title I just think, "Quite well for our purposes."

[lurkeroutthere]

Also the population of the UCAS is much lower due to VITAS and things like that.  In fact, the full world population has gone down due to that.  So having a lot of empty space and some ghost towns is something you will also see outside of the NAN.

This is a good point. The three waves of VITAS did a number on the population. We're talking Black Plague levels of death in some areas. Not as bad in most of the US, but it still wasn't pretty. Add to that the fact that large portions of the US even today is wide-open spaces, along with what other people have already said, and it becomes much more plausible. For instance, the majority of Oregon was basically depopulated by the various waves of VITAS and the war that brought the NAN into being, which is why the elves were able to step in and take over.

I will never understand why people think that those in death camps would fare better then the general population against a super plague.

[Silence]

Because the first round of VITAS was before the Ghost Dance War.

[Crimsondude]

And because the camps were isolated from the world—possibly even more remote and isolated than most of already isolated western reservations.

[Tzeentch]

I will never understand why people think that those in death camps would fare better then the general population against a super plague.

-- Because it actually says they did in the canon material?

[grid_roamer]

Also the population of the UCAS is much lower due to VITAS and things like that.  In fact, the full world population has gone down due to that.  So having a lot of empty space and some ghost towns is something you will also see outside of the NAN.

This is a good point. The three waves of VITAS did a number on the population. We're talking Black Plague levels of death in some areas. Not as bad in most of the US, but it still wasn't pretty. Add to that the fact that large portions of the US even today is wide-open spaces, along with what other people have already said, and it becomes much more plausible. For instance, the majority of Oregon was basically depopulated by the various waves of VITAS and the war that brought the NAN into being, which is why the elves were able to step in and take over.

I will never understand why people think that those in death camps would fare better then the general population against a super plague.

That is a pretty standard response to a epidemic, Isolation....

If bed rest and juice doesn't help then a larger area is isolated.

[Mirikon]

Also the population of the UCAS is much lower due to VITAS and things like that.  In fact, the full world population has gone down due to that.  So having a lot of empty space and some ghost towns is something you will also see outside of the NAN.

This is a good point. The three waves of VITAS did a number on the population. We're talking Black Plague levels of death in some areas. Not as bad in most of the US, but it still wasn't pretty. Add to that the fact that large portions of the US even today is wide-open spaces, along with what other people have already said, and it becomes much more plausible. For instance, the majority of Oregon was basically depopulated by the various waves of VITAS and the war that brought the NAN into being, which is why the elves were able to step in and take over.

I will never understand why people think that those in death camps would fare better then the general population against a super plague.

As mentioned by others, isolated camps are, well, isolated. If something starts within the camp, then yes, it will spread like wildfire. But the biggest reason why a disease can spread to global pandemic levels like VITAS did is because of MOVEMENT. Namely, people moving from one area to the other, acting as carriers infecting those around them, whether knowingly or not. There's a reason why most biological terror simulations involve transportation hubs, you know. The camps were isolated places, where few people bothered to go if they had any choice at all. Not as much movement means not as much chance for external diseases to spread into the camps.

Urban areas are the places hardest hit by any plague when pre-existing medicines don't work. Sure, if someone in rural or isolated areas contracts the same plague, they're utterly boned, but they're far less likely to be exposed to the plague to begin with.