Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: incrdbil on <09-29-13/1404:58>
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I've been debating my initial House rules, and the first one I'm thinking of is tinkering with success limits. I wanted to see if anyone else is doing the same, and if they have any actual play experience to relate.
One thought is to keep them, but simply say successes above limits take 2 rolled successes to gain one more net success.
For calculation of limits, I have been thinking of allowing characters to choose their highest characteristic to be the base portion of a formula. (For example, for physical limits, a character could decide to use Agility instead of Strength).
Adding limitations to a skill based on the characteristic they default link to--this creating a lot more limit scores
Eliminate Gear Limits
Or there's the easiest option: drop limits altogether.
I'm interested in any variation on limits you've tried in your games.
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The Limits exist purely to eliminate the issue of dumping an attribute that would otherwise be considered worthless. The most common dumpstats in SR4 were Strength, Logic and Charisma, so its no surprise to me at all that those three are the primary contributors to the respective limits.
I personally see no reason to eliminate limits, or alter their function at all, except to make the guy who dumped his Strength to 1 feel better about his decision every time he rolls Sneaking.
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Limits aren't really that bad, as one would have to be nearing the top ten percentile in the world with a particular skill to really be bumping up against the limit all that much.
That said, when it comes to discouraging dump stats, it wasn't all that necessary, as all it takes to discourage such is a GM that will look at the offender and say "Tell me why your Strength, Logic and Charisma are all still sitting at 1. And it better be a damn good reason."
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I dont think neither social nor mental limits are cutting many successes away normally. Thats because if the character only has logic 1, then he rarely has any high logic related dicepools anyway, making the limit a very small factor. Physical limit is different, as sneaking and palming are under that one, and I usually envision many sneaky characters to have low body and strength, with high agility and reaction. But oddly enough trolls are "better" at sneaking and palming than the body 2 agi 6 str2 guy :-\ so I agree with OP that in that case the limit might be a bit off.
But I think it would be very unwise to get rid of them completely. spells and cyberdecks would work vastly different without them. And I like the limit on weapons, it gives a more nuanced weapon world, where there is both "finesse" weapons and pure "brutal" ones. So not every character would be better off buying "same best gun" as it would be different for each character.
If you REALLY want to choose 1, Id go for the first one you suggested.
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Keep in mind it's one of the functions of Edge to break those limits. And high Edge characters are rewarded by it. Also, Edge refresh is put completely in a GM's hands in this edition. You can literally refresh Edge every battle if you wish.
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I'm not quite comfortable with how certain limits affect gameplay. I'm very happy with how they work on the mental side and social side, but I'm not quite sold on the combat side. It may be the gear book will come out though and have all sorts of customization options that will enable players to raise the accuracy rating of weapons (customized grips, match quality weapons etc).
Of course, a flat accuracy rating is simpler than individual weapon dice pool modifiers at range bands to represent more or less accurate weapons.
I'm going to give it a few more sessions.
Maybe it was just a fluke, but the last game I ran I saved time by using pre-generated roll results to tell the player not to roll his declared action because the defender had already beaten his accuracy limit.
I'm leaning now towards allowing successes over the limit as above, but maybe carefully start off at a 3/1 or 2/1 trade in ratio, so its still very desirable to have the better quality weapon.
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Maybe it was just a fluke, but the last game I ran I saved time by using pre-generated roll results to tell the player not to roll his declared action because the defender had already beaten his accuracy limit.
Never do that. Never. Not once. Just because the defender has beaten his Accuracy does not mean it is a foregone conclusion - he still has the option to spend Edge and thus bypass his Limit.
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As I said, the chances of actually running into problems with one's limit--be it Physical, Social, Mental or Accuracy--aren't really all that high for a well-rounded character.
If you're really concerned with defense tests getting 'auto success', just apply the Physical Limit to them*. It really should apply there anyway.
* Or, if you think that Limit will be too high for a defender, do something kind of unusual and apply that Limit to defense tests just with it being calculated only with natural (before magical, cyber or bio augments) attributes for that purpose (and that purpose only).
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I dont think neither social nor mental limits are cutting many successes away normally. Thats because if the character only has logic 1, then he rarely has any high logic related dicepools anyway, making the limit a very small factor.
Except that we also have Intuition-based Mental Skills.
The rough estimate is that you want your limit to be half your dicepool for 10% to lose 1+ hits.
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Maybe it was just a fluke, but the last game I ran I saved time by using pre-generated roll results to tell the player not to roll his declared action because the defender had already beaten his accuracy limit.
Never do that. Never. Not once. Just because the defender has beaten his Accuracy does not mean it is a foregone conclusion - he still has the option to spend Edge and thus bypass his Limit.
He can certainly opt to use edge at that point. (and this would be considered after roll edge, I don't reveal anything until the player has committed to not using edge prior to his chance to roll). He'd make a roll, count the successes, then roll the failures. No reason not to tell him that though, and save him the time rolling dice if he doesn't choose to use the edge.
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How exactly are your defenders automatically beating their Accuracy Limit? The average gun has an accuracy between 4 and 7, which can easily be raised to 6 and 9 with a smartgun. I've personally never seen a player with an Accuracy lower than 6, and the majority of the sample grunts only have around 6 or 8 dice in their entire pool. Did he roll nothing but successes?
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He'd make a roll, count the successes, then roll the failures.
To break the limit, Edge must be used to add exploding dice, rerolling failures does not let you break the limit.
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Now I could see the possibility of an automatic failure if the defender has more succesess that the attacker has dice. But that seems like a GM error if that occurs (or REALLY bad jusgement of the player).
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In a somewhat unrelated but remotely similar vein, the advent of Limits really makes things so that not having the 'Rule of Six' at all times is rather silly. Considering that the majority of rolls have some sort of Limit attached to them and that spending Edge is the only way to completely ignore Limits, there was no real reason to continue restricting the 'Rule of Six' in such a manner.
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He'd make a roll, count the successes, then roll the failures.
To break the limit, Edge must be used to add exploding dice, rerolling failures does not let you break the limit.
Ah, true. after they commit to not using pre-roll Edge, limits are solid, and the defense test can be rolled first.
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He'd make a roll, count the successes, then roll the failures.
To break the limit, Edge must be used to add exploding dice, rerolling failures does not let you break the limit.
Ah, true. after they commit to not using pre-roll Edge, limits are solid, and the defense test can be rolled first.
Not quite. You can still add dice equal to your Edge rating after rolling.
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How exactly are your defenders automatically beating their Accuracy Limit? The average gun has an accuracy between 4 and 7, which can easily be raised to 6 and 9 with a smartgun. I've personally never seen a player with an Accuracy lower than 6, and the majority of the sample grunts only have around 6 or 8 dice in their entire pool. Did he roll nothing but successes?
Plenty of weapons start with a base 4-6 Accuracy.
It easy to rack up a lot of defense successes, especially with a full defense option, or if the defender has a decent reaction/intuition--not to mention what happens if the defender uses edge. Add in running modifiers, cover, its not hard to get a very healthy defense pool when facing talented opposition.
I have noted the use of the dodge action does introduce a limit to a defense test, which is a reason I don't expect to see it used terribly much.
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He'd make a roll, count the successes, then roll the failures.
To break the limit, Edge must be used to add exploding dice, rerolling failures does not let you break the limit.
Ah, true. after they commit to not using pre-roll Edge, limits are solid, and the defense test can be rolled first.
Not quite. You can still add dice equal to your Edge rating after rolling.
Correct, push the limit can happen after the roll, easy to forget because I've only had it come up twice so far.
Ok, to keep it solid, have the player state if they plan to use edge prior to roll. if so, have them roll then. Otherwise announce defense result if it exceeds the players accuracy/limit, giving the player the time to decide if he'll then use edge to roll and ignore limits, and thus roll dice, or simply not bother rolling.
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He can certainly opt to use edge at that point. (and this would be considered after roll edge, I don't reveal anything until the player has committed to not using edge prior to his chance to roll). He'd make a roll, count the successes, then roll the failures. No reason not to tell him that though, and save him the time rolling dice if he doesn't choose to use the edge.
He can decide to use edge to push the limit after he's seen his roll. In other words, by telling him not to roll you skipped the step where he gets to see his results before deciding to see if he wanted to push the limit.
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He can certainly opt to use edge at that point. (and this would be considered after roll edge, I don't reveal anything until the player has committed to not using edge prior to his chance to roll). He'd make a roll, count the successes, then roll the failures. No reason not to tell him that though, and save him the time rolling dice if he doesn't choose to use the edge.
He can decide to use edge to push the limit after he's seen his roll. In other words, by telling him not to roll you skipped the step where he gets to see his results before deciding to see if he wanted to push the limit.
Well, he can still roll then do the final commit to use edge if he wants--I'm trying to stpeed things up as much as possible by reducing dice rolling or combining it.
But anyway, back to the main topic, I've got a back end of an adventure and big rolling fight to finish, correcting some other errors I've made from my carry over of 4th edition habits, then I'll poll the players about how they feel about limits and go over options.
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Well, he can still roll then do the final commit to use edge if he wants--I'm trying to stpeed things up as much as possible by reducing dice rolling or combining it.
But anyway, back to the main topic, I've got a back end of an adventure and big rolling fight to finish, correcting some other errors I've made from my carry over of 4th edition habits, then I'll poll the players about how they feel about limits and go over options.
It's your game and all, but I don't see how your way is faster than just having the two of you roll at the same time and count your successes.
Also, if I were a player and you tried to deprive me of the visceral fun of rolling my attack pool, I'd be pissed. Your players may feel differently.
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Well, he can still roll then do the final commit to use edge if he wants--I'm trying to stpeed things up as much as possible by reducing dice rolling or combining it.
But anyway, back to the main topic, I've got a back end of an adventure and big rolling fight to finish, correcting some other errors I've made from my carry over of 4th edition habits, then I'll poll the players about how they feel about limits and go over options.
It's your game and all, but I don't see how your way is faster than just having the two of you roll at the same time and count your successes.
Also, if I were a player and you tried to deprive me of the visceral fun of rolling my attack pool, I'd be pissed. Your players may feel differently.
I'm not depriving him of the 'fun' of rolling a dice poll. It simply tells the player, in advance that they'll have to use edge to even have a chance to hit versus the targets defense test. If they are willing to risk it, then they get to roll. if they don't wish to expend the edge, then they don't waste their time (or a great dice roll) on a test that cant possibly succeed. Opposed tests take time, and limiting the dice rolling keeps the flow moving better.
I'm streamlined my pregenerated roll sheets a bit now. I have columns that list the most typical dice pools I'll be rolling, then a list of success tests printed out from a random number generator. Not having to make a lot of dice rolls enables me to speed up my responses and the game a lot, and avoids triggering player 'radar' by suddenly rolling dice in secret.