Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Cyber-Dave on <12-12-13/1522:36>
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I just caught another oddity in the rules. So, on page 238 the rules say that when you are controlling a device, "The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally." Furthermore, "All actions you take while controlling a device use either the normal limit for that action or your Data Processing rating, whichever is lower." In this case, when using drone stealth, it seems to me that handling would replace physical as the "normal limit." So, according to those rules drone stealth should use Stealth + Agility [Handling or Data processing, whichever is lower].
Now, the rules for staying hidden from sensors are different. On page 184 it says, "If the target is trying to evade detection, make this an Opposed Test versus the target’s...Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction [Handling] (driven vehicles)." Well, the term "infiltration" is obviously a typo. That should read "stealth." And, what (Vehicle) means is explain after: "Since vehicle stealth is limited by the driver’s ability, the dice applied for Infiltration skill should not exceed the driver’s appropriate Vehicle skill." Fair enough. Avoiding "radar" (and other types of sensors) is not the same thing as avoiding visible detection (even though metacritters do just roll a usual stealth check, oddly enough). So, when trying to avoid being spotted by a living creature you roll one thing. When trying to evade sensor detection, you roll another. Makes sense. This is why there are two different pilot programs for stealth (stealth and evasion).
On page 270, however, things get weird. The game tells us that, for drone infiltration, "When jumped in, the test is Stealth + Intuition [Handling]." Huh? Why Intuition? That doesn't jive with the "control device" rules at all. How do the control device rules interact with this? Does someone use a different dice pool to control a drone based on whether they are hacking it or controlling it legitimately? That doesn't make sense. Is the rule on 270 an exception to the norm that applies to drone infiltration? And, if so, why does drone infiltration use Intuition instead of Agility?
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If you could add some enters to that post, I can try to actually read what it says. o_O
Anyway, let me try: It's Stealth Autosoft + Pilot for the Drone, and Stealth + Intuition for the Jumped In Rigger, because Control Device is nuts and describes a scenario that clearly only applies to AR. In AR it'd obviously be Stealth + Agility, but you don't get your Control Rig bonuses then.
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If you could add some enters to that post, I can try to actually read what it says. o_O
It seems that in an age of texting, we are losing the ability to read the long paragraph. :/
Anyway, I cut it into smaller components. It should be more palatable now.
Anyway, let me try: It's Stealth Autosoft + Pilot for the Drone, and Stealth + Intuition for the Jumped In Rigger, because Control Device is nuts and describes a scenario that clearly only applies to AR. In AR it'd obviously be Stealth + Agility, but you don't get your Control Rig bonuses then.
Ok, so, control device applies when using AR and the rules later in the book apply when jumped in? Ok... fine. I have to say though, I think it is a BIG mistake to divide the control device rules up into AR and VR. They should have been one single set of rules. The rules for VR should have been bonuses applied to the usual control device rules. The current set up is confusing, to say the least... :/
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I personally think the physical attributes Strength and Agility should have nothing to do with how well you function jumped in. However, I understand why they added it to AR control.
And no, texting isn't responsible here. You just had way too much text crunched up in there.
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I personally think the physical attributes Strength and Agility should have nothing to do with how well you function jumped in. However, I understand why they added it to AR control.
Strength should be replaced by a drone based stat. I agree. Your muscle mass shouldn't affect your ability to control a drone. I see no reason, however, why Agility wouldn't affect how well you function jumped in. Eye hand coordination has as many synaptic qualities as it does prehensile qualities. And, it is VERY odd that some characters are better at controlling drones in AR than VR. Going VR should always be a benefit, in my opinion.
But, whatever. It doesn't make all that big of a deal to me as long as I know how to adjudicate the game. (Afterall, nothing makes my paradigm inherently accurate. Maybe some people should, in fact, be more effective at manipulating a drone in AR than VR. What do I know?) And I do now (know how to adjudicate the rules). Thank you for helping me with that!
And no, texting isn't responsible here. You just had way too much text crunched up in there.
Yea. I don't know. It was long, I grant you that. But, I have seen longer in published work. These days, it seems like people are very quick to complain about paragraph length. Which, in the age of twitter and texting, seems to be about par for the course. It was just an observation about changing literary trends!
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Jumped In in VR you'd have what, a +4 dice bonus on top of a +2 limit?
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Jumped In in VR you'd have what, a +4 dice bonus on top of a +2 limit?
Depends on the character. You can get a theoretical +2 dice bonus from hot sim, and various bonuses (including another +1 to +3 die bonus, on some specific types of skill checks) from your rig, but with some characters the net result will be a penalty (or at best a wash). I know. I just built a character like that. A covert-ops/rigger hybrid. In the end, I removed his control rig and opted for full AR control of the fly-spy and rotor drone the character uses. Being forced to use stats like intuition instead of agility cost me 2 dice already. And, in AR, I can benefit from reflex wires/reaction, which are a good deal higher than the character's data-processing on his cheap 16k control rig. Put plain and simply, he is more effective with an AR drone than a VR drone. In my opinion, that should never happen. Everyone should see going VR, when they are operating a drone, as a benefit.
Of course, with the dedicated rigger I built going VR is a huge benefit. My point, however, is that won't be true for all characters. Now, the question is, is that acceptable/a good thing or not? My gut reaction is "no." I might, however, be in need of a paradigm shift.
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there is no different skill, attribute or limit between AR and VR (at least not in SR5).
there might or might not be a difference between remote control and jumped in; but as far as i can tell it seems to be the same skill, attribute and limit between the two as well.
to avoid a sensor test if you are a driven vehicle (manual control, remote control or jumped in) you roll Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction [Handling] (where "Infiltration (Vehicle)" is the lowest rating between your stealth skill and your vehicle skill).
A drone that is currently not controlled (dog brain) would use it's own Pilot + [Model] Stealth [Handling] instead.
where (what page) indicate that you should use intuition to avoid a sensor test when you are driving a vehicle......?
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there is no different skill, attribute or limit between AR and VR (at least not in SR5).
there might or might not be a difference between remote control and jumped in; but as far as i can tell it seems to be the same skill, attribute and limit between the two as well.
to avoid a sensor test if you are a driven vehicle (manual control, remote control or jumped in) you roll Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction [Handling] (where "Infiltration (Vehicle)" is the lowest rating between your stealth skill and your vehicle skill).
A drone that is currently not controlled (dog brain) would use it's own Pilot + [Model] Stealth [Handling] instead.
Xenon, I don't think what you are saying is true. You are flying the drone via AR? You roll Agility + Stealth [handling or data processing, whichever is lower]. You are flying the drone in VR? You roll Intuition + Stealth [Handling]. That is a difference! In the case of gunnery, you seem to have a choice between logic/agility depending on how you want to use your guns one way or the other. In the case of stealth, you don't seem to get a choice. The choice is made for you depending on whether you are controlling device through AR or jumped in through VR.
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where does it say you use intuition when you drive a vehicle and try to avoid a sensor test?
p.184 say you use stealth or vehicle whichever is lowest + reaction limited by handling (or data process in case or remote control if that is lower than handling, p.238)
gunnery say you use weapon skill + agility [accuracy] on manual operation (if not remote control and not jumped in) and gunnery + logic [sensor] on remote operation for vehicle mounted weapons and for drones you use either gunnery + agility [accuracy] or gunnery + logic [sensor] depending on if you want to use sensor aiming or not. no matter if you are in AR, cold sim VR or hot sim VR - or cold sim VR jumped in or hot sim VR jumped in. They all use the same skills and attributes.
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nm. found page refernce now
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Please note, you do not use Intuition to avoid sensors. You use Intuition to avoid being spotted by biological metacritters who might see / notice your vehicle. When avoiding sensors, whether you are in AR or VR, you roll a completely different test: Stealth (limited by your Pilot skill) + Reaction [Handling].
EDIT: And, for the record, I don't really like the fact that you roll two different dice pools to avoid being spotted by Sensors/avoid being spotted by metacritters. It would be far more simple and elegant to make sensor checks nothing more than an augmented perception check.
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nope.
stealth + intuition [handling] on p.270 is the test you take against a perception test (from a metahuman or a critter etc)
but you asked about hiding from sensors.
against sensors the test is (p.184 Sensor Attacks)
{lowest of stealth / vehice} + reaction [{lowest of handling / data process}]
(as i posted above)
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ok.i missunderstod your OP i think....
we are saying the same thing
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The test to avoid a metatype / critter's perception test when you remote control a drone in AR, cold-sim VR or hot-sim VR would be:
Stealth + Agility [{lowest of Handling and Data Processing}]
The test when jumped in cold-sim VR or jumped in hot-sim VR would be;
Stealth + Intuition [Handling]
does it say somewhere that you use one attribute for AR and another attribute for (not jumped in) VR?
does it say somewhere that you use intuition for (not jumped in) VR?
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You are contradicting yourself. You named two different tests to do the same thing when in AR or VR. Which is a problem. The rules on page 270 don't give you a choice. As such, when they are applicable, they seem to replace the rules on page 238. That would mean that the following is in fact true:
The test to avoid a metatype/critter's perception test when you remote control a drone in AR would be: Stealth + Agility [{lowest of Handling and Data Processing}].
The test to avoid a metatype/critter's perception test when you are in VR (coldsim) would be: Stealth + Intuition [Handling].
The test to avoid a metatype/critter's perception test when you are in VR (hotsim) would be: Stealth + Intuition + 2 [Handling].
The test when you are in VR or AR is not the same. Honestly, I think they should be.
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The book make a difference between remote control (control device) and use rigger control+rigger interface (jumped in). P 270 is the test you take when jumped in.
Where is the rule that give you different skills or attributes when you are in AR or VR when you use control device (which is remote control)?
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AR rigging is described as using your commlink as a video-game controller. I know -lots- of pro-gamers, and most of them don't have very high agility/strength (just put them through a gymnastics course and see!). A lot of gymnasts and athletes don't seem too good at video gamaes, though! I don't think the agility requirement makes sense even for AR rigging.
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AR rigging is described as using your commlink as a video-game controller. I know -lots- of pro-gamers, and most of them don't have very high agility/strength (just put them through a gymnastics course and see!). A lot of gymnasts and athletes don't seem too good at video gamaes, though! I don't think the agility requirement makes sense even for AR rigging.
You can't use AR when rigging (jumped in).
That would be remote control.
You can do remote control from AR or VR.
As far as i can see there is no difference of skill, attribute and limit if you use AR or VR when you remote control.
It might or might not make sense to you. If it does not make sense then you can always house rule things. That is one thing.
As for rules you use (as far as i can see) the same skill and attribute while you use Remote Control no matter if you use it with AR or VR.
As far as i can tell there is no difference between skills, attributes and limit when you remote Control depending on if you use AR or VR.
The book even give explicit examples where you use agility while using Remote Control.
The book make a difference between Remote Operation (Remote Control with AR or VR - and Jumped in) and manual operation.
The book also -in some rare cases- make difference within Remote Operation (Remote Control vs Jumped in).
I don't see a single case where they make a difference between how you use Remote Control (AR vs VR).
The only difference between AR and VR is that in AR you use meat world initiative and in VR you use matrix initiative -and in some cases you can't Jump in directly from AR (have to enter VR first as a middle step, depending on what hardware you use and how you jacked into the matrix). But thats about it really. Everything you can do in VR you can do in AR. You can even hack and enter hosts from AR...
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Uh, sorry, what Xenon? You seem to have added a division to the rules that is not presented in the rules. Namely, you seem to have divided AR control of a drone from remote control. The two are one and the same. When you are AR controlling a drone, you are remote controlling a drone. The "control device" rules ARE the rules you use when controlling a drone in AR mode. When it talks about being "jumped in," it is talking about controlling a drone via full VR (when you are gathering sensory data as if you actually ARE the drone).
Now, if you are claiming that is not the case, would you mind please providing the page numbers that describe the division you are talking about? I admit I might be wrong. But, to date, I have seen nothing that suggests that the division you are talking about exists. Which means that you use two different pools for the same activity depending on whether you are AR controlling or jumped in (and, if that is the case, what you are claiming is untrue)...
EDIT: Although, reading over what you wrote in another thread, I think I might just be misunderstanding you. I think you might be saying that all jumped in control is VR control. On the other hand, you can remote control a drone from AR or while sitting in the matrix in VR mode (but not jumped into a vehicle). If that is the case, then me and you actually agree, and we are just misunderstanding each other. And, my issue, that you can be better at remote controlling a drone than controlling it when you are jumped in, stands.
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Uh, sorry, what Xenon? You seem to have added a division to the rules that is not presented in the rules. Namely, you seem to have divided AR control of a drone from remote control. The two are one and the same. When you are AR controlling a drone, you are remote controlling a drone. The "control device" rules ARE the rules you use when controlling a drone in AR mode. When it talks about being "jumped in," it is talking about controlling a drone via full VR (when you are gathering sensory data as if you actually ARE the drone).
There is no difference between Control Device if you are in AR, cold-sim VR or hot-sim VR.
It is the same action.
A decker does not normally have a control rig.
A decker can still very well be in hot-sim VR.
....and use the matrix action Control Device.
To jump in you need a control rig (which normally only riggers have).
Being in VR is not the same as being jumped in.
There is a difference between remote controlling something with Control Device and Rigger control by Jumping In.
The remote controlling rules are for controlling a device from AR or from VR (but not when Jumped In).
EDIT: Although, reading over what you wrote in another thread, I think I might just be misunderstanding you. I think you might be saying that all jumped in control is VR control. On the other hand, you can remote control a drone from AR or while sitting in the matrix in VR mode (but not jumped into a vehicle). If that is the case, then me and you actually agree, and we are just misunderstanding each other. And, my issue, that you can be better at remote controlling a drone than controlling it when you are jumped in, stands.
The 4 control orders are
Jumped in
Remote control
Manual control
Auto pilot
When I am saying Remote Control I mean the matrix action Control Device and the modes AR, cold-sim VR and hot-sim VR.
When I am saying Jumped In I mean the matrix action Jump in that require a control rig and rigger interface.
When you say Remote Control you mean AR only
When you say VR you mean Jumped In
I claim that you can be in VR and still not be jumped in and still use Control Device with the same attribute, skill and limit that you would if you use Control Device from AR.
Only riggers that have a control rig can jump in (and only if the vehicle have a control rig).
AR and VR = Not jumped in.
Jumped in = Jumped in.
The test to avoid a metatype/critter's perception test when you remote control a drone in AR would be: Stealth + Agility [{lowest of Handling and Data Processing}].
The test to avoid a metatype/critter's perception test when you are in VR (coldsim) would be: Stealth + Intuition [Handling].
The test to avoid a metatype/critter's perception test when you are in VR (hotsim) would be: Stealth + Intuition + 2 [Handling].
The test when you are in VR or AR is not the same. Honestly, I think they should be.
The test is the same when you are in VR or AR.
The test might be different if you are Jumped In.
The test to avoid a metatype/critter's perception test when you remote control a drone in AR would be: Stealth + Agility [{lowest of Handling and Data Processing}].
The test to avoid a metatype/critter's perception test when you remote control a drone in VR (hot or coldsim) would be: Stealth + Agility [{lowest of Handling and Data Processing}].
The test to avoid a metatype/critter's perception test when you are in jumped in: Stealth + Intuition [Handling].
There might be a difference between AR and VR (you are after all using your meat body controlling AROs or using your commlink as a gamepadin AR and in VR your body goes limb and your movements are translated into the matrix instead) but i can't see a single example or case in the book where you use different skills, attributes or limits between AR and VR (you might or might not get positive dice pool bonus or higher limit but that is about it). Being jumped in, however, give you a lot of advantages from your control rig - and in some tests you use different skill, attribute or limit compared to AR / VR remote control.
If you go back and read my posts you'll see that i am consistent that when i talk about VR (or when i read you typing VR) i read it as Control Device (which can be both AR or VR). When i talk about Jumped in i mean Jumped in (and not AR or VR). To be extra explicit i even spelled it out as:
AR + cold-sim VR + hot-sim VR = Remote Control
and
Jumped in cold-sim VR + Jumped in hot-sim VR = Jumped In
(If you really mean Jumped in when you type VR then it will get very confusing very fast since VR is Control Device or Remote Control and not at all Jumped In).
The 4 control orders are
Jumped in
Remote control
Manual control
Auto pilot
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Ok. We are in full agreement. We were just talking past each other/using terminology in ways that confused each other. I now understand what you are saying, and I agree with your assessment.
My problem is that some people are more effective at controlling drones when using control device than they are at controlling them when they are jumped in. That seems weird to me. I think jumping in should be a flat benefit over remote controlling them, and the core dice-pools should be the same. Though, I can (and will) live with the RAW.
So, that is settled.
Thanks for talking it out with me! I appreciate the effort to get us on the same page.
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The only place where that would be an issue would be when sneaking.
To shoot a weapon mounted on a drone you use gunnery + agility [accuracy] or gunnery + logic [sensor] no matter if you use AR, cold-sim VR, hot-sim VR, jumped in cold-sim VR or jumped in hot-sim VR. But when you are jumped in you get all kinds of control rig bonus. In this case it is not better to not jump in (control rig offer you various positive dice pool modifiers and increased limits when you jump in).
(i apologize if any of my posts came off as rude; i am not 100% sober right now).
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I guess you are right. It is only an issue when sneaking. But, after building a covert-ops surveillance and wetware specialist, I ended up having to make a choice. My first instinct was to pick a control rig (1). But, the penalty I would suffer to stealth just made it not worth it for me to ever jump in (since any time I used my drones I would be doing stealth work). It made more sense for me to take reflex wires (1). The +1 to reaction gives me the same benefit as the rig when making pilot checks. I wouldn't be able to reduce my pilot check DCs by one, but the stealth was more important to me anyway.
So, I guess what I am saying is that I really think that the stealth check dice pool should be based on the same stats whether you are remote controlling or jumped in. Jumping in, then, would always be a net benefit. I think they should fix that with errata. Everything else seems to be working well.
(And no need to apologize. You were not rude.)
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I'm confused about the control rig bonuses. What tests does it help? I thought it only helped Pilot and Gunnery? And I'm not even sure it increases limits for gunnery.
But now it seems it could also help other tests made while jumped in?
Also I'm confused about the hot-sim bonus as well. I thought it gave +1 to rigging actions (meaning everything done while jumped in which is not a matrix action) and +2 to genuine matrix action.
Also does the hot-sim bonus's +2 apply to the matrix defense pool?
Thanks for any help!
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It allow you to treat all vehicle tests as matrix actions (as I read it you get +2 from hot sim and +1 from hot sim with a control rig). This include, but is not limited to, vehicle control tests, gunnery tests and sensor tests....
Limits of the vehicle is increased by the control rig. Including, but not limited to, handling limit, speed limit, sensor limit and even accuracy limit of on board drone weaponry.
It might help on other tests while jumped in. Do you have any particular test in mind? Any matrix or vehicle test should be valid.
The +2 and +1 hot sim bonus stack (according to Aaron).
Hot sim would help on full matrix defense if full matrix defense had a test (it is a matrix action). But as you can see on p. 240 the test is marked "none". Hot sim only give a positive dice pool modifier to the matrix action test, it does not increase the effect of a matrix action (it does not add to your willpower).
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Also I'm confused about the hot-sim bonus as well. I thought it gave +1 to rigging actions (meaning everything done while jumped in which is not a matrix action) and +2 to genuine matrix action.
German edition notes +2, so it appears the +1 is a typo, you simply get the normal +2 HotSim bonus.
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The +2 and +1 hot sim bonus stack (according to Aaron).
@Xenon
In the FAQ, the same guy asked again the same question about the bonus stacking but more clearly, stating he still believe it was a typo, Aaron then answer he didn't understand him the first time.
Edit: There it is ->http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11514.msg238774#msg238774