[Cyber-Dave]

I just caught another oddity in the rules. So, on page 238 the rules say that when you are controlling a device, "The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally." Furthermore, "All actions you take while controlling a device use either the normal limit for that action or your Data Processing rating, whichever is lower." In this case, when using drone stealth, it seems to me that handling would replace physical as the "normal limit." So, according to those rules drone stealth should use Stealth + Agility [Handling or Data processing, whichever is lower].

Now, the rules for staying hidden from sensors are different. On page 184 it says, "If the target is trying to evade detection, make this an Opposed Test versus the target’s...Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction [Handling] (driven vehicles)." Well, the term "infiltration" is obviously a typo. That should read "stealth." And, what (Vehicle) means is explain after: "Since vehicle stealth is limited by the driver’s ability, the dice applied for Infiltration skill should not exceed the driver’s appropriate Vehicle skill." Fair enough. Avoiding "radar" (and other types of sensors) is not the same thing as avoiding visible detection (even though metacritters do just roll a usual stealth check, oddly enough). So, when trying to avoid being spotted by a living creature you roll one thing. When trying to evade sensor detection, you roll another. Makes sense. This is why there are two different pilot programs for stealth (stealth and evasion).

On page 270, however, things get weird. The game tells us that, for drone infiltration, "When jumped in, the test is Stealth + Intuition [Handling]." Huh? Why Intuition? That doesn't jive with the "control device" rules at all. How do the control device rules interact with this? Does someone use a different dice pool to control a drone based on whether they are hacking it or controlling it legitimately? That doesn't make sense. Is the rule on 270 an exception to the norm that applies to drone infiltration? And, if so, why does drone infiltration use Intuition instead of Agility?

 

[Michael Chandra]

If you could add some enters to that post, I can try to actually read what it says. o_O

Anyway, let me try: It's Stealth Autosoft + Pilot for the Drone, and Stealth + Intuition for the Jumped In Rigger, because Control Device is nuts and describes a scenario that clearly only applies to AR. In AR it'd obviously be Stealth + Agility, but you don't get your Control Rig bonuses then.

[Cyber-Dave]

If you could add some enters to that post, I can try to actually read what it says. o_O

It seems that in an age of texting, we are losing the ability to read the long paragraph. :/

Anyway, I cut it into smaller components. It should be more palatable now.

Anyway, let me try: It's Stealth Autosoft + Pilot for the Drone, and Stealth + Intuition for the Jumped In Rigger, because Control Device is nuts and describes a scenario that clearly only applies to AR. In AR it'd obviously be Stealth + Agility, but you don't get your Control Rig bonuses then.

Ok, so, control device applies when using AR and the rules later in the book apply when jumped in? Ok... fine. I have to say though, I think it is a BIG mistake to divide the control device rules up into AR and VR. They should have been one single set of rules. The rules for VR should have been bonuses applied to the usual control device rules. The current set up is confusing, to say the least... :/

[Michael Chandra]

I personally think the physical attributes Strength and Agility should have nothing to do with how well you function jumped in. However, I understand why they added it to AR control.

And no, texting isn't responsible here. You just had way too much text crunched up in there.

[Cyber-Dave]

I personally think the physical attributes Strength and Agility should have nothing to do with how well you function jumped in. However, I understand why they added it to AR control.

Strength should be replaced by a drone based stat. I agree. Your muscle mass shouldn't affect your ability to control a drone. I see no reason, however, why Agility wouldn't affect how well you function jumped in. Eye hand coordination has as many synaptic qualities as it does prehensile qualities. And, it is VERY odd that some characters are better at controlling drones in AR than VR. Going VR should always be a benefit, in my opinion. 

But, whatever. It doesn't make all that big of a deal to me as long as I know how to adjudicate the game. (Afterall, nothing makes my paradigm inherently accurate. Maybe some people should, in fact, be more effective at manipulating a drone in AR than VR. What do I know?) And I do now (know how to adjudicate the rules). Thank you for helping me with that!

And no, texting isn't responsible here. You just had way too much text crunched up in there.

Yea. I don't know. It was long, I grant you that. But, I have seen longer in published work. These days, it seems like people are very quick to complain about paragraph length. Which, in the age of twitter and texting, seems to be about par for the course. It was just an observation about changing literary trends!

[Michael Chandra]

Jumped In in VR you'd have what, a +4 dice bonus on top of a +2 limit?

[Cyber-Dave]

Jumped In in VR you'd have what, a +4 dice bonus on top of a +2 limit?

Depends on the character. You can get a theoretical +2 dice bonus from hot sim, and various bonuses (including another +1 to +3 die bonus, on some specific types of skill checks) from your rig, but with some characters the net result will be a penalty (or at best a wash). I know. I just built a character like that. A covert-ops/rigger hybrid. In the end, I removed his control rig and opted for full AR control of the fly-spy and rotor drone the character uses. Being forced to use stats like intuition instead of agility cost me 2 dice already. And, in AR, I can benefit from reflex wires/reaction, which are a good deal higher than the character's data-processing on his cheap 16k control rig. Put plain and simply, he is more effective with an AR drone than a VR drone. In my opinion, that should never happen. Everyone should see going VR, when they are operating a drone, as a benefit.

Of course, with the dedicated rigger I built going VR is a huge benefit. My point, however, is that won't be true for all characters. Now, the question is, is that acceptable/a good thing or not? My gut reaction is "no." I might, however, be in need of a paradigm shift. 

[Xenon]

there is no different skill, attribute or limit between AR and VR (at least not in SR5).

there might or might not be a difference between remote control and jumped in; but as far as i can tell it seems to be the same skill, attribute and limit between the two as well.


to avoid a sensor test if you are a driven vehicle (manual control, remote control or jumped in) you roll Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction [Handling] (where "Infiltration (Vehicle)" is the lowest rating between your stealth skill and your vehicle skill).

A drone that is currently not controlled (dog brain) would use it's own Pilot + [Model] Stealth [Handling] instead.




where (what page) indicate that you should use intuition to avoid a sensor test when you are driving a vehicle......?

[Cyber-Dave]

there is no different skill, attribute or limit between AR and VR (at least not in SR5).

there might or might not be a difference between remote control and jumped in; but as far as i can tell it seems to be the same skill, attribute and limit between the two as well.


to avoid a sensor test if you are a driven vehicle (manual control, remote control or jumped in) you roll Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction [Handling] (where "Infiltration (Vehicle)" is the lowest rating between your stealth skill and your vehicle skill).

A drone that is currently not controlled (dog brain) would use it's own Pilot + [Model] Stealth [Handling] instead.

Xenon, I don't think what you are saying is true. You are flying the drone via AR? You roll Agility + Stealth [handling or data processing, whichever is lower]. You are flying the drone in VR? You roll Intuition + Stealth [Handling]. That is a difference! In the case of gunnery, you seem to have a choice between logic/agility depending on how you want to use your guns one way or the other. In the case of stealth, you don't seem to get a choice. The choice is made for you depending on whether you are controlling device through AR or jumped in through VR.

[Xenon]

where does it say you use intuition when you drive a vehicle and try to avoid a sensor test?

p.184 say you use stealth or vehicle whichever is lowest + reaction limited by handling (or data process in case or remote control if that is lower than handling, p.238)


gunnery say you use weapon skill + agility [accuracy] on manual operation (if not remote control and not jumped in) and gunnery + logic [sensor] on remote operation for vehicle mounted weapons and for drones you use either gunnery + agility [accuracy] or gunnery + logic [sensor] depending on if you want to use sensor aiming or not. no matter if you are in AR, cold sim VR or hot sim VR - or cold sim VR jumped in or hot sim VR jumped in. They all use the same skills and attributes.

[Xenon]

nm. found page refernce now

[Cyber-Dave]

Please note, you do not use Intuition to avoid sensors. You use Intuition to avoid being spotted by biological metacritters who might see / notice your vehicle. When avoiding sensors, whether you are in AR or VR, you roll a completely different test: Stealth (limited by your Pilot skill) + Reaction [Handling].

EDIT: And, for the record, I don't really like the fact that you roll two different dice pools to avoid being spotted by Sensors/avoid being spotted by metacritters. It would be far more simple and elegant to make sensor checks nothing more than an augmented perception check.

[Xenon]

nope.

stealth + intuition [handling] on p.270 is the test you take against a perception test (from a metahuman or a critter etc)

but you asked about hiding from sensors.

against sensors the test is (p.184 Sensor Attacks)
{lowest of stealth / vehice} + reaction [{lowest of handling / data process}]

(as i posted above)

[Xenon]

ok.i missunderstod your OP i think....
we are saying the same thing

[Xenon]

The test to avoid a metatype / critter's perception test when you remote control a drone in AR, cold-sim VR or hot-sim VR would be:
Stealth + Agility [{lowest of Handling and Data Processing}]
The test when jumped in cold-sim VR or jumped in hot-sim VR would be;
Stealth + Intuition [Handling]


does it say somewhere that you use one attribute for AR and another attribute for (not jumped in) VR?
does it say somewhere that you use intuition for (not jumped in) VR?