Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Vidnaut on <12-25-13/2248:26>
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Going again through the old Arsenal book under the weapon modifications (partially for preparing myself for Run & Gun) and I happened to notice that one can't benefit from a suppressor and gas-vent system simultaneously (pg. 152). Then I checked in the 20th Anniversary Edition book to see if the Ingram Smartgun was adjusted to work that way (since maybe it was glossed over in simplified rules for SR5 corebook) too (answer: nope). Now I'm wondering if the Ingram Smartgun is a special case for SMGs like that since it can simultaneously benefit from sound suppression and the gas-vent 2 it has. Did Catalyst just gloss over this aberration not once but twice in a row?
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Does the Ingram specifically say you can use both at the same time, as a direct exception to the general rule?
If not, it probably has both features but you have to choose which is being used at any given moment.
The general rule reflects real life. Gas vents work by releasing propellant gasses to counteract muzzle rise from recoil. Suppressors work by preventing the release of the same propellant gasses, directing them into internal baffles to capture and slow them down which reduces the noise they make. They're kinda diametrically opposed.
-k
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Does the Ingram specifically say you can use both at the same time, as a direct exception to the general rule?
If not, it probably has both features but you have to choose which is being used at any given moment.
The general rule reflects real life. Gas vents work by releasing propellant gasses to counteract muzzle rise from recoil. Suppressors work by preventing the release of the same propellant gasses, directing them into internal baffles to capture and slow them down which reduces the noise they make. They're kinda diametrically opposed.
-k
Well, that's the problem. There isn't an explicit rule in SR5 stating that you can't benefit from a suppressor and gas-vent system. It is implied that you can't as only one of those accessories can go on barrel mount but it doesn't cover the interplay between two integral upgrades or an integral and an accessory. Overall, the book is vague on it until Run & Gun supersedes it. I'm just rather sad that it wasn't covered at the get-go initially before requiring a splatbook to set the record straight (again). Hopefully, the SR5 corebook official errata will fix this issue before the splatbook route is required.
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The general rule reflects real life. Gas vents work by releasing propellant gasses to counteract muzzle rise from recoil. Suppressors work by preventing the release of the same propellant gasses, directing them into internal baffles to capture and slow them down which reduces the noise they make. They're kinda diametrically opposed.
^This
But since there is no rule for it I guess you might argue that reality (RAI) does not apply and you can use both at the same time (RAW).
However,
You can not retrofit a weapon with a gasvent if it have an integral sound suppressor that explicit take up the barrel mount.
You can not retrofit a weapon with a sound suppressor if it have an integral gasvent that explicit take up the barrel mount.
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The Ingram has both installed and you can use either or (at Least in SR4A you could) but not simultaneously.
Switching between Gasvent and Supressor was a free Action because of Smartlink in 4A.
Now, in SR5, I guess you need it to be WiFi online to be a free Action or a simple Action if not WiFied
HokaHey
Medicineman
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I would personally rule that you could use both simultaneously if they came with the weapon. I'd also allow a weapon such as the HK-227X to be retrofitted with a gas vent system that would function simultaneously with the integral sound suppressor.
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i wouldn't allow that you use both at the same time.
the primary purpose of a a sound suppressor is to reduce the sound by containing and limiting the amount of gas (and with that; sound) that escape the barrel when you pull the trigger (you also normally use subsonic ammunition which travel at reduced speeds / reduced kinetic energy - and game mechanic wise this would probably reduce damage and/or effective range but the smaller charge would possible also have a positive effect on recoil).
the purpose of a gas-vent, however, is to vent gases out as much gas as possible and even vent the gas at specific vectors - all this will reduce muzzle climb and in the end reduce recoil.
imo; the two are simply not compatible with each other.
the only benefit you would get with a sound suppressor operating at the same time as an integral gas vent would be reduced muzzle flash (which would possible make it harder to spot the shooter at distance - there are actual real life accessories that are called flash suppressor (or flash guard or muzzle break or...) designed to do this as well; they just don't exist in SR5 core) - but the actual sound reducing property would be mostly lost due to the simple fact how a gas vent recoil reducing system operate.
weapon with a sound suppressor in a gyro mount would be totally viable though ;)
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I just take a utilitarian approach to the setting; in a world where magic exists, it's not unfathomable to me that someone came up with a hybrid solution, OR even more likely, the integral gas-vent is only reminiscent of the accessory in that it reduces recoil somehow. The specific mechanics are not important, just the fact that both are supplied with the weapon. But I'm very clearly in house rule territory here...
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actually, SR5 RAW-wise it would be legal to use both at the same time.
there are [currently] no rule that prevent it. at least not in SR5 core.
(then again - there is also no rule that explicit allow you to use both at the same time, either).
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In SR5 they can both be used at the same time 'cause that's the point 'cause that's how the gun was built.
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In SR5 they can both be used at the same time 'cause that's the point 'cause that's how the gun was built.
Well, in SR3 and SR4A you couldn't and the Gun was built exactly the same ;D
with quite the same Dance
Medicineman
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Well, in SR3 and SR4A you couldn't and the Gun was built exactly the same ;D
with quite the same Dance
Medicineman
If I were to play those games, I'd keep that in mind ;)
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The rule doesn't exist in SR5 right now, so unless Run&Gun reintroduces it it doesn't apply.
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Well, in SR3 and SR4A you couldn't and the Gun was built exactly the same ;D
with quite the same Dance
Medicineman
If I were to play those games, I'd keep that in mind ;)
Flawless :)
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i wouldn't allow that you use both at the same time.
the primary purpose of a a sound suppressor is to reduce the sound by containing and limiting the amount of gas (and with that; sound) that escape the barrel when you pull the trigger (you also normally use subsonic ammunition which travel at reduced speeds / reduced kinetic energy - and game mechanic wise this would probably reduce damage and/or effective range but the smaller charge would possible also have a positive effect on recoil).
the purpose of a gas-vent, however, is to vent gases out as much gas as possible and even vent the gas at specific vectors - all this will reduce muzzle climb and in the end reduce recoil.
imo; the two are simply not compatible with each other.
Hmm. I'm going to have to disagree here. With proper baffling to slow the gasses being vented to counter recoil, it could still be silenced (and since there's less gas being ejected from the muzzle, this should be even easier/more efficient. The primary bar to doing this today is the engineering of the vents' baffling, but I'm confident that additive manufacturing (aka 3D printing) will eventually make it possible, with enough trial and error, if nothing else does.
If it takes 60 years, humanity just sucks and deserves to be eaten by a bug spirit, provided they don't get eliminated/nerfed by UMT first.
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Oh no!! You found one of 11 eternal riddles of SR...
I call it the "snowflake" gun, accept it as written and move on... (meaning you can use both)
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You couldn't in SR4, even though you could install both in guns with internal modifications. In SR5 there is no rule (yet?) forbidding the two being combined. With recoil now accumulating, the combination also isn't as overpowered as it was before.
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You couldn't in SR4, even though you could install both in guns with internal modifications. In SR5 there is no rule (yet?) forbidding the two being combined. With recoil now accumulating, the combination also isn't as overpowered as it was before.
Can you please point me at said rule in SRA? There may be rule that forbids the instalation of both modifications, well I dontr recall where I have seen that you cannot use those mods both if they are installed in the weapon (Like that ISX)
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It wasn't in SR4a, which also did not forbid installing one when the other came as existing modification that thus did not take up the barrel mount. The restriction was in Arsenal, noting that weapons can be equipped with both a suppressor and a gas-vent, but if the gas-vent was on the suppressor did not give its benefits. Which is why it's possible the rule will get reintroduced with Run&Gun. However, given accumulating recoil, I'm not sure if they will.
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Well I went through Arsenal and still didnt find anything like that...
EDIT: Found that: p.152
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I for one see the lack of restriction in SR5 as an oversight on the part of the writers rather than an intentional alteration of the way things were before.
-k
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Given how it wasn't in SR4 Core either, it could be anything, a mistake, deliberate temporarily or deliberate permanently.
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It wasn't in SR4a, which also did not forbid installing one when the other came as existing modification that thus did not take up the barrel mount. The restriction was in Arsenal, noting that weapons can be equipped with both a suppressor and a gas-vent, but if the gas-vent was on the suppressor did not give its benefits. Which is why it's possible the rule will get reintroduced with Run&Gun. However, given accumulating recoil, I'm not sure if they will.
True, that might be a reason for it. I would have liked a more definite answer though to this. Is there nobody else you could ask in regards to this that might know?
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Nope.
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Anyone who knows will be under NDA regarding Run&Gun.
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Anyone who knows will be under NDA regarding Run&Gun.
Alright, fair enough. Now we return you to our regular programming of wild speculation.
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Oh no!! You found one of 11 eternal riddles of SR...
I call it the "snowflake" gun, accept it as written and move on... (meaning you can use both)
I take it the RC on the Panther is another one?
Does anyone have a clue when Run and Gun will be? Or Run Faster for that matter?
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Not the foggiest. However, given the random info here and there, I'm personally guessing that Run&Gun is quite far in the Editing process. Run Faster, on the other hand, I really suspect will be half a year if they make it the next priority, or more than a year if Rigger V gets the priority I personally think it should.
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Not the foggiest. However, given the random info here and there, I'm personally guessing that Run&Gun is quite far in the Editing process. Run Faster, on the other hand, I really suspect will be half a year if they make it the next priority, or more than a year if Rigger V gets the priority I personally think it should.
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You want SR 6 to come out already?!?
:P
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Yeah. :P But in all seriousness, with Rigger V all I need to switch to SR5 is some way of dealing with a single green dwarf metavariant character.
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You didn't have that problem with the Ingram in SR 1-3 has the gun didn't have a built-in suppressor to begin with. That's a change that came with SR4. In SR4 or SR5 its folding stock disappeared too.
A much loved gun goes through so many changes :/
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You didn't have that problem with the Ingram in SR 1-3 has the gun didn't have a built-in suppressor to begin with. That's a change that came with SR4. In SR4 or SR5 its folding stock disappeared too.
A much loved gun goes through so many changes :/
The Folding stock didn't disappear in 4A ! it disapperaed in 5 (even though its still depicted WITH folding stock)
and I'm quite sure that the Ingram Smartgun had a built in Suppressor in SR3
HokaHow
Medicineman
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I haven't played 4th so sadly I wasn't sure, so sorry for that I stand corrected.
But I am sure about the Ingram Smartgun not being suppressed in Sr3. According to the English version of the core book p. 277 the SMG does not come with a suppressor but has a folding stock.
I wonder why they removed the stock. It's possibly another mistake that needs an errata!
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Guys, I have just found an existing U.S. patent from 2011 that exhibits a prototype for a combined sound-supressor and gas-vent system.
Bottomline, it is possible to combine both systems.
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omg this necro
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It is unfortunate that the current US Patent laws don't require submission of a product that actually WORKS.
-k
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There are combined FLASH suppressor/muzzle brakes. But those mask the flash from the shooter not the target, and they do nothing about the sound. I also saw a can type suppressor that threaded on to a muzzle brake. It had piss poor compensation performance.
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There is a company that submitted for and recieved a patent for an entirely plastic gun as well..... even through the weapon would EXPLODE in your hand if you tried to use it.
Patents mean almost nothing if there is not a working model. I could submit a patent for reaching the moon using step ladders. Doesn't mean you could actually get there....
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To be fair, Shadowrun is a game where silenced gunshots are more Hollywood than science. I don't have any issues with a game that goes light on the science and allows gas-vents and silencers to operate together when silencers are already unrealistic. That's just me, though.
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It isn't normally an issue because they are both barrel accessories. However, the Smartgun X has both so things get muddied.
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You can also install one of them in an internal slot and the other on the barrel. So it isn't quite that simple.
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There is a company that submitted for and recieved a patent for an entirely plastic gun as well..... even through the weapon would EXPLODE in your hand if you tried to use it.
Patents mean almost nothing if there is not a working model. I could submit a patent for reaching the moon using step ladders. Doesn't mean you could actually get there....
You can make a gun out of plastic... just not in the same dimensions as a metal one. Components have to be thicker in places to make up for the difference in material strengths. Of course, this would be illegal in the US.