[Vidnaut]

Going again through the old Arsenal book under the weapon modifications (partially for preparing myself for Run & Gun) and I happened to notice that one can't benefit from a suppressor and gas-vent system simultaneously (pg. 152).  Then I checked in the 20th Anniversary Edition book to see if the Ingram Smartgun was adjusted to work that way (since maybe it was glossed over in simplified rules for SR5 corebook) too (answer: nope).  Now I'm wondering if the Ingram Smartgun is a special case for SMGs like that since it can simultaneously benefit from sound suppression and the gas-vent 2 it has.  Did Catalyst just gloss over this aberration not once but twice in a row?

[KarmaInferno]

Does the Ingram specifically say you can use both at the same time, as a direct exception to the general rule?

If not, it probably has both features but you have to choose which is being used at any given moment.

The general rule reflects real life. Gas vents work by releasing propellant gasses to counteract muzzle rise from recoil. Suppressors work by preventing the release of the same propellant gasses, directing them into internal baffles to capture and slow them down which reduces the noise they make. They're kinda diametrically opposed.



-k

[Vidnaut]

Does the Ingram specifically say you can use both at the same time, as a direct exception to the general rule?

If not, it probably has both features but you have to choose which is being used at any given moment.

The general rule reflects real life. Gas vents work by releasing propellant gasses to counteract muzzle rise from recoil. Suppressors work by preventing the release of the same propellant gasses, directing them into internal baffles to capture and slow them down which reduces the noise they make. They're kinda diametrically opposed.



-k

Well, that's the problem.  There isn't an explicit rule in SR5 stating that you can't benefit from a suppressor and gas-vent system.  It is implied that you can't as only one of those accessories can go on barrel mount but it doesn't cover the interplay between two integral upgrades or an integral and an accessory.  Overall, the book is vague on it until Run & Gun supersedes it.  I'm just rather sad that it wasn't covered at the get-go initially before requiring a splatbook to set the record straight (again).  Hopefully, the SR5 corebook official errata will fix this issue before the splatbook route is required.

[Xenon]

The general rule reflects real life. Gas vents work by releasing propellant gasses to counteract muzzle rise from recoil. Suppressors work by preventing the release of the same propellant gasses, directing them into internal baffles to capture and slow them down which reduces the noise they make. They're kinda diametrically opposed.

^This

But since there is no rule for it I guess you might argue that reality (RAI) does not apply and you can use both at the same time (RAW).


However,
You can not retrofit a weapon with a gasvent if it have an integral sound suppressor that explicit take up the barrel mount.
You can not retrofit a weapon with a sound suppressor if it have an integral gasvent that explicit take up the barrel mount.

[Medicineman]

The Ingram has both installed and you can use either or (at Least in SR4A you could)  but not simultaneously.
Switching between Gasvent and Supressor was a free Action because of Smartlink in 4A.
Now, in SR5, I guess you need it to be WiFi online to be a free Action or a simple Action if not WiFied

HokaHey
Medicineman

[martinchaen]

I would personally rule that you could use both simultaneously if they came with the weapon. I'd also allow a weapon such as the HK-227X to be retrofitted with a gas vent system that would function simultaneously with the integral sound suppressor.

[Xenon]

i wouldn't allow that you use both at the same time.

the primary purpose of a a sound suppressor is to reduce the sound by containing and limiting the amount of gas (and with that; sound) that escape the barrel when you pull the trigger (you also normally use subsonic ammunition which travel at reduced speeds / reduced kinetic energy - and game mechanic wise this would probably reduce damage and/or effective range but the smaller charge would possible also have a positive effect on recoil).

the purpose of a gas-vent, however, is to vent gases out as much gas as possible and even vent the gas at specific vectors - all this will reduce muzzle climb and in the end reduce recoil.

imo; the two are simply not compatible with each other.

the only benefit you would get with a sound suppressor operating at the same time as an integral gas vent would be reduced muzzle flash (which would possible make it harder to spot the shooter at distance - there are actual real life accessories that are called flash suppressor (or flash guard or muzzle break or...) designed to do this as well; they just don't exist in SR5 core) - but the actual sound reducing property would be mostly lost due to the simple fact how a gas vent recoil reducing system operate.

weapon with a sound suppressor in a gyro mount would be totally viable though

[martinchaen]

I just take a utilitarian approach to the setting; in a world where magic exists, it's not unfathomable to me that someone came up with a hybrid solution, OR even more likely, the integral gas-vent is only reminiscent of the accessory in that it reduces recoil somehow. The specific mechanics are not important, just the fact that both are supplied with the weapon. But I'm very clearly in house rule territory here...

[Xenon]

actually, SR5 RAW-wise it would be legal to use both at the same time.
there are [currently] no rule that prevent it. at least not in SR5 core.

(then again - there is also no rule that explicit allow you to use both at the same time, either).

[ProfessorCirno]

In SR5 they can both be used at the same time 'cause that's the point 'cause that's how the gun was built.

[Medicineman]

In SR5 they can both be used at the same time 'cause that's the point 'cause that's how the gun was built.

Well, in SR3 and SR4A you couldn't and the Gun was built exactly the same 

with quite the same Dance
Medicineman

[ProfessorCirno]

Well, in SR3 and SR4A you couldn't and the Gun was built exactly the same 

with quite the same Dance
Medicineman

If I were to play those games, I'd keep that in mind

[Michael Chandra]

The rule doesn't exist in SR5 right now, so unless Run&Gun reintroduces it it doesn't apply.

[Sichr]

Well, in SR3 and SR4A you couldn't and the Gun was built exactly the same 

with quite the same Dance
Medicineman

If I were to play those games, I'd keep that in mind

Flawless

[BetaCAV]

i wouldn't allow that you use both at the same time.

the primary purpose of a a sound suppressor is to reduce the sound by containing and limiting the amount of gas (and with that; sound) that escape the barrel when you pull the trigger (you also normally use subsonic ammunition which travel at reduced speeds / reduced kinetic energy - and game mechanic wise this would probably reduce damage and/or effective range but the smaller charge would possible also have a positive effect on recoil).

the purpose of a gas-vent, however, is to vent gases out as much gas as possible and even vent the gas at specific vectors - all this will reduce muzzle climb and in the end reduce recoil.

imo; the two are simply not compatible with each other.

Hmm. I'm going to have to disagree here. With proper baffling to slow the gasses being vented to counter recoil, it could still be silenced (and since there's less gas being ejected from the muzzle, this should be even easier/more efficient. The primary bar to doing this today is the engineering of the vents' baffling, but I'm confident that additive manufacturing (aka 3D printing) will eventually make it possible, with enough trial and error, if nothing else does.

If it takes 60 years, humanity just sucks and deserves to be eaten by a bug spirit, provided they don't get eliminated/nerfed by UMT first.