Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Redman on <02-17-14/1804:12>
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LMG quesiton
Why do you pay 3800 nuyen more for the Ingram Valiant than the krime wave. Is it he BF fire mode? the gas vent system?
The Ingram Valiant stats
Acc 5(6). DV 9P. AP -2 Mode: BF/FA Ave 12F Cost : 5800
comes wuth laser sight, rigid stock and gas vent 2
Krime wave
Acc 6. DV 10P. AP -2 Mode: FA Ave 12F Cost : 2000
comes with bipod, metahuman custom
I am not complaining I am just trying to understand.
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I'm guessing the BF Fire mode, though that's not that useful given the errata'd recoil rules.
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The gas vent is also a little pricey upgrade, so that might be part of it. It could also be because the Krime guns are manufactured to a lower standard. Or it could be that the devs are looking to explain why the Krime might be a more common sight in some areas (I'm thinking rural Africa and such).
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The Krime Wave's accuracy is actually only five. That, along with the stock and gas vent, are probably why the Ingram is more than twice the cost. I'm sure, as well, once Run & Gun is released, having those three mods built-in (and thus not taking up mod capacity, if it's like SR4) will be a considerable benefit. But I am also with Namikaze, in that it's probably to make that gun more prevalent in certain areas.
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okay thank you
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You can customize a Krime Wave with a Gas Vent 3, top mounted smartgun system and a shock pad for, IIRC, 2850 which is still only a little over half the Ingram. Really the base stats (not counting RC) are identical in every way I can tell. I could understand the cost of the Ingram if it had a internal smartgun system but it doesn't. I think it is just one of those things.
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Correct, but it costs you your mount slots.
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Weapon prices don't always make sense stat-wise. Some weapons are more expensive b/c of marketing. Maybe some of them are sturdier, more resistant to weather and other conditions, more reliable, more ergonomic, lighter - things not covered by exact game rules.
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Exactly. Oddly just like today. Sometimes a lower price means an inferior weapon (such as the Hi-Point guns). Sometimes it just means it isn't a brand name. That said, I usually prefer to buy used good name guns rather than new low brand guns. Used guns haven't really been covered well in SR though.
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Exactly. Oddly just like today. Sometimes a lower price means an inferior weapon (such as the Hi-Point guns). Sometimes it just means it isn't a brand name. That said, I usually prefer to buy used good name guns rather than new low brand guns. Used guns haven't really been covered well in SR though.
Chances are every single weapon your characters ever bought off the black market was used... hopefully not in a crime
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With firearms being restricted, there should be legal ways to buy used guns cheaper than new guns though. Anyone with experience at pawn shops should know this. My last revolver I picked up cost me $225, it sells for $550 new.
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Legal = paper trail / possible burnt SIN = sad shadowrunner
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I guess maybe. I can legally buy guns now without a paper trail if I want to. Most states don't require registration of firearms. It's one of the reasons I really don't want to move to the coastlines where most jobs in my industry are (glares at CA and MD firearm laws).
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I guess maybe. I can legally buy guns now without a paper trail if I want to. Most states don't require registration of firearms. It's one of the reasons I really don't want to move to the coastlines where most jobs in my industry are (glares at CA and MD firearm laws).
Well in Shadowrun these states don't exist anymore. :P
In any event, it's pretty well established that paper trails are everywhere in Shadowrun. If you have a SIN, you're leaving some paper trail. Even if that's a forged SIN. So if you're buying a gun from a store (which you REALLY shouldn't be doing as a runner) then you have left a paper trail. Most runners should be buying weapons via a fixer, arms dealer, etc. anyway so it's kind of a non-issue.
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I would disagree there most likely. The more hard a state is on gun registration, the more restrictions it places on the firearms you can own in those states for the most part. In SR, if anything, places are loser on firearms than in real life. Look at how easy it is to legally own and carry military and paramilitary grade weaponry. MD just banned the AR-15 essentially, CA has for a a few years now. Not FA versions, just your base SA AR-15.
"Paper trails" are going to more obvious in SR because money is digital. That leaves a digital paper trail that will always be traceable to some degree. That said, credsticks do get rid of some of the issue.
I wish they would bring back the Street Index system from SR 3. It reflected new vs. black market/used weapons perfectly. There were times that it was easier to burn a SIN than try to find something on the black market.
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That's true. The Street Index system was quite nice. We could probably put our heads together and jury-rig something similar.
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Weapon prices don't always make sense stat-wise. Some weapons are more expensive b/c of marketing. Maybe some of them are sturdier, more resistant to weather and other conditions, more reliable, more ergonomic, lighter - things not covered by exact game rules.
Could be if you ruled certain weapons built for reliability had +1 to the 1s you'd have to roll to glitch. I run my meatspace group like that with revolvers, and while nobody's actually kept a revolver it's been enough for them to hold onto them and occasionally use them until fencing time.
I wish they would bring back the Street Index system from SR 3. It reflected new vs. black market/used weapons perfectly. There were times that it was easier to burn a SIN than try to find something on the black market.
I'd be interested in seeing that. Besides applying 'frequent require maintenance' or other subtle qualities inspired by Augmentation's 'second-hand ware' qualities, there aren't a lot of salient ways that I can think of to differentiate some weapons. Even something with strong fluff reason would be nice, especially if I could explain it to my group.
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[...]So if you're buying a gun from a store (which you REALLY shouldn't be doing as a runner)[...]
To be fair, there are absolutely times where you need a legally (or pseudo-legally) owned gun.
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One thing to consider in these discussions is that a heavily modded gun is much harder to replace than an unmoded one. Given enough time you will always get the most efficient combo, but sometimes time is a pressing factor and thats when these "all in one" guns shine. Paying for convenience basically.
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One thing to consider in these discussions is that a heavily modded gun is much harder to replace than an unmoded one. Given enough time you will always get the most efficient combo, but sometimes time is a pressing factor and thats when these "all in one" guns shine. Paying for convenience basically.
"Mods" and "Accessories" are not the same thing - modding might take time, but getting an accessory and slapping it on really doesn't; you'll have the accessories before the gun even.
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Also, Smartlink is a mod when internal.
Shadowrun has no rules for item degradation. You replace a gun when you lose it or when it becomes too hot. You only get to retain accessories in one of these cases.
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Also, Smartlink is a mod when internal.
It will be, you and I both seem to assume, when mods exist in the rules. At present, however, there's no such distinction.
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I think the bigger question you should be asking yourself is:
"How much paperwork do you want to create for yourself?"
By that I mean, The game is supposed to be fun and engaging.... and is at it's worst when you have to make a bunch of arbitrary dice rolls to check up on your equipment....
My major guess in the variance in weapon prices is (as said above) about quality. I am willing to bet that, the Krime Canon is a glorified POS, barely holding together.... But the ingram? A smooth sleek killing machine!
Now, in the interest of gameplay and mechanics, do you wish to complicate an already complex game with adding in a "quality" stat? And then what? roll each week to see if it fails? Each battle?
****
As a runner, you live or die by your Rep. You want a Rep of being reliable, non-talkative, easy to work with, and that you are a proven asset. Using basely held together crap gear does not inspire confidence in you, or your ability. In fact, it makes you appear "low rent".... and you don't hire low renters for high rise work.....
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I could see maintenance as a quality similar to vintage. As Reaver said though, it would be cumbersome to make work.
It should be relatively rare though. While most gun lovers would cringe, most firearms can work fine without ever bothering to clean them. My dad has a .38 that he's owned since the late 70's and never cleans. I actually had to teach him how to clean his guns when I bought my first Sig.
Usually requiring maintenance is more tied to a design flaw than straight quality of the craftsmanship. I have a .25 that has a flaw in the slide. I don't even both loading clips in it because it stovepipes almost every time.
Back on topic. Once Run & Gun comes out, and we have more options for mounts, I suspect that the guns with more internal stock mods will shine more.
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Also, Smartlink is a mod when internal.
It will be, you and I both seem to assume, when mods exist in the rules. At present, however, there's no such distinction.
But even if you get an internal smartgun system seperately from the weapon, it will cost the same as the weapon and have a higher Availability than the weapon - plus based on those two things, it seems it'll only work for one specific kind of weapon. There's only 2 possible reasons to get it seperately: getting it seperately saves you from a delivery time increase, or you already have the weapon and want to retrofit it.
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Back on topic. Once Run & Gun comes out, and we have more options for mounts, I suspect that the guns with more internal stock mods will shine more.
I agree. IIRC, all the guns have 6 mod slots (not accessories) so the stock mods are already pretty nice to have. But there's not enough options out there right now to make the stock mods even better.
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Back on topic. Once Run & Gun comes out, and we have more options for mounts, I suspect that the guns with more internal stock mods will shine more.
Like additional defense against hacking (where applicable), given that they're configured to interface with a specific device, not just whatever it's attached to (i.e., a "proprietary"or "connected system" tag/quality, perhaps?), even when operating "wireless".
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Even now the ability to have both a gas vent and a Silencer/Suppressor on the same gun can make shelling out extra worthwhile. It's always struck me as ironic that the weapons that cannot be silenced (revolvers, shotguns, assault cannons) are also often the ones with no need for gas vents due to being SS. Not true in all cases, but in enough to be noteworthy.
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You could always buy a suppressor (at least it's there in S4A 322). It's marked as only lasting for 300 rounds, but it goes for revolvers as well as burst-fire weapons. I'm sure some tables pretend it doesn't exist and just use silencers for everything possible, but it's still there. Maybe come Run & Gun it'll be in 5E.
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It's always struck me as ironic that the weapons that cannot be silenced (revolvers, shotguns, assault cannons) are also often the ones with no need for gas vents due to being SS. Not true in all cases, but in enough to be noteworthy.
Revolvers can be silenced, if they're made appropriately. c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895
Shotguns can be also, if you limit them to slugs or sabots. With the right baffling setup, it might even work with larger shot, with a light enough charge.
Even assault cannons should be silencable in theory, but there's less of a point to it without subsonic (which aren't statted in-game) cannon rounds, which is a lot to ask for on a munition engineered for kinetic kills against armored vehicles. But, y'know... if you're willing to pay for a gun that fires Fairlight Excaliburs, there's probably a "smart monkey" somewhere that can design it, and (in the 2070s, or 2050s, even) fabricate it for you.
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If you are bringing an assault cannon to the party the time for sneaking has passed. The same goes for shotguns really. The right tool for the right job.
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You might want to sneak a Roomsweeper in somewhere...