Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Gripper on <02-20-14/2324:56>
-
Let's say I'm a human and decide to buy a cyberarm. My non-augmented agility and strength are both 3.
1) Can I take both the agility customization to boost the agility up to 6 and the agility enhancement of 3 to bring it up to 9? This seems to violate the limit of +4 to augmentation, but you're replacing your entire arm. How about if my agility was 5?
2) If I took improved agility at character creation, can I then choose to bring my agility up to 7 with customization?
3) I've also got this sweet Ares Alpha that I want to use with this new arm. In order to use this, would I need to coordinate both arms so that I only get to use the agility 3?
4) If the arm is alphaware, do the enhancements and implant weapons need to be alpha grade as well?
5) I'm an adept. Can I channel my focus through the ware and use my improved pistols with the arm?
-
Let's say I'm a human and decide to buy a cyberarm. My non-augmented agility and strength are both 3.
1) Can I take both the agility customization to boost the agility up to 6 and the agility enhancement of 3 to bring it up to 9? This seems to violate the limit of +4 to augmentation, but you're replacing your entire arm. How about if my agility was 5?
yes you can do this, your original stats are unimportant.
2) If I took improved agility at character creation, can I then choose to bring my agility up to 7 with customization?
yes
3) I've also got this sweet Ares Alpha that I want to use with this new arm. In order to use this, would I need to coordinate both arms so that I only get to use the agility 3?
ares alpha is a rifle so it requires both arms, which would mean you use the average of the two arms stats
4) If the arm is alphaware, do the enhancements and implant weapons need to be alpha grade as well?
yes
5) I'm an adept. Can I channel my focus through the ware and use my improved pistols with the arm?
yes
-
Let's say I'm a human and decide to buy a cyberarm. My non-augmented agility and strength are both 3.
1) Can I take both the agility customization to boost the agility up to 6 and the agility enhancement of 3 to bring it up to 9? This seems to violate the limit of +4 to augmentation, but you're replacing your entire arm. How about if my agility was 5?
Unfortunately yes, but be warned, doing so is pure and unadulterated cheddar cheese.
Let's say I'm a human and decide to buy a cyberarm. My non-augmented agility and strength are both 3.
2) If I took improved agility at character creation, can I then choose to bring my agility up to 7 with customization?
Again, unfortunately yes. Again cheddar cheese to do so.
Let's say I'm a human and decide to buy a cyberarm. My non-augmented agility and strength are both 3.
3) I've also got this sweet Ares Alpha that I want to use with this new arm. In order to use this, would I need to coordinate both arms so that I only get to use the agility 3?
Anything using both arms is going to require the averaging.
4) If the arm is alphaware, do the enhancements and implant weapons need to be alpha grade as well?
Yes.
-
Using cyberarms is not cheese. It's an integral part of the chromed street sam build. How is it cheese to use an option given to you to build your character with?
-
Using cyberarms is not cheese. It's an integral part of the chromed street sam build. How is it cheese to use an option given to you to build your character with?
agreed, especially given the character has a 3 in his stats. If it was 1 you might, MIGHT have an argument.
-
Using cyberarms is not cheese. It's an integral part of the chromed street sam build. How is it cheese to use an option given to you to build your character with?
Using cyber arms is not. Using cyber arms to have an Agility score that is completely maxed out to put attribute points in other places (such as the hacker with the "Cyber Arm of Awesome") is very much Pure Gouda.
-
Using cyber arms is not. Using cyber arms to have an Agility score that is completely maxed out to put attribute points in other places (such as the hacker with the "Cyber Arm of Awesome") is very much Pure Gouda.
I'm now officially calling this the "Cyber Arm of Awesome". Looking at this for a Sammy anyway, and just wanted to see if I got it right.
-
Using cyber arms is not. Using cyber arms to have an Agility score that is completely maxed out to put attribute points in other places (such as the hacker with the "Cyber Arm of Awesome") is very much Pure Gouda.
I'm now officially calling this the "Cyber Arm of Awesome". Looking at this for a Sammy anyway, and just wanted to see if I got it right.
Like I've said in other threads, it would be more fitting to how customization is described for it to be limited to one's natural attribute value.
-
I dunno... there is a line out there for the "Cyberarm of Awesome" and when it goes from tactical, to cheese....
I mean, the guy that has 1s in STR and AGL, that loads up the arm to 9 AGL and never has a plan to increase his AGL or pistol skill (thus relying solely on the arm for his dice pool).... Cheese.
The Sammy type that has a STR and AGL of 3, that gets the same arm? And has a plan for increasing his gun/agility over time? Much more of a tactical choice....
-
Using cyberarms is not cheese. It's an integral part of the chromed street sam build. How is it cheese to use an option given to you to build your character with?
I'm on Your side with this.:)
if the Devs would've considered it ....Edamer or Gouda they would've put a cap on it or restrain it somehow (They've done so already ) buts since its a viable option to max out Your Cybermember to 6(or even 9 ) even though your natural Attribute is just 1 its totally RAW to use that as an option
....I just Remember, the Devs did put a kinda cap on it : only natural Attributes are calculated for the Limits
so Even If You've got a Cyberarm of Awesomeness it won't help with the Limits
He who dances with a wheel o' (RAW)Cheese
Medicineman
-
Using cyberarms is not cheese. It's an integral part of the chromed street sam build. How is it cheese to use an option given to you to build your character with?
I'm on Your side with this.:)
if the Devs would've considered it ....Edamer or Gouda they would've put a cap on it or restrain it somehow (They've done so already ) buts since its a viable option to max out Your Cybermember to 6(or even 9 ) even though your natural Attribute is just 1 its totally RAW to use that as an option
He who dances with a wheel o' (RAW)Cheese
Medicineman
it is the fact that it is RAW that makes it cheese :P
-
I mean, the guy that has 1s in STR and AGL, that loads up the arm to 9 AGL and never has a plan to increase his AGL or pistol skill (thus relying solely on the arm for his dice pool).... Cheese.
I've got a Char with STR2 and AGI2 , 2 Cyberarms with STR 5(+1) and AGI 6(+1).
Due to her Backgroundstory she was in a Backwaterhospital in Coma for a Year and suffered from Muscle atrophy(thats why she started with AGI 2 and STR1 ).
I intend to Raise her AGI to 3 but also to max out her Cyberarm AGI one more Point to 8 . STR is fine like it is.
what is that to You ?
Cheese or no Cheese ?
HokaHey
Medicineman
-
4) If the arm is alphaware, do the enhancements and implant weapons need to be alpha grade as well?
In some cases yes, in some cases no.
Internal Cyberdeck and Internal Commlink have been explained as if only the "docking station" that cost essence or capacity that need to be the same grade. The actual cyberdeck or commlink is not. Not sure how (or even if) that translates to enhancements and implanted weapons.
But until a developer state otherwise (like with cyberdecks and commlinks) enhancements and implant weapons should (must) have the same grade as the cyberlimb.
-
Let's say I'm a human and decide to buy a cyberarm. My non-augmented agility and strength are both 3.
1) Can I take both the agility customization to boost the agility up to 6 and the agility enhancement of 3 to bring it up to 9? This seems to violate the limit of +4 to augmentation, but you're replacing your entire arm. How about if my agility was 5?
2) If I took improved agility at character creation, can I then choose to bring my agility up to 7 with customization?
3) I've also got this sweet Ares Alpha that I want to use with this new arm. In order to use this, would I need to coordinate both arms so that I only get to use the agility 3?
4) If the arm is alphaware, do the enhancements and implant weapons need to be alpha grade as well?
5) I'm an adept. Can I channel my focus through the ware and use my improved pistols with the arm?
Augmented Maximum does not, by developer intent & design, apply to Cyberarms. On the other hand, Cyberarms do not boost your inherent values, so they do not impact your movement rate and physical limit. You can have a Customized Cyberarm at any Strength or Agility value, but can only use it when it's not higher than your own natural maximum (which is modified by the exceptional attribute quality and racial modifications), before Enhancement.
Two-handed weapons, which people tend to rule as everything past SMGs (Assault Rifles, Longarms, Heavy Weapons), will average your two arms.
All accessories of cyberlimbs must be the same grade as the cyberlimb. The sole exception that I know of are implanted commlinks/cyberdecks, since with those you pay the grade-costs for the slot, not for the item.
If you pay for it with essence, it's part of you, so your abilities apply. This applies for vision enhancements and magical targeting, but I'd say it also applies to cyberlimbs, since they are still a part of you. Look at it this way, someone with 1 arm loses no essence, but someone with a cyberarm does. They themselves trade part of their soul to make that arm part of them.
A GM has every right to veto a character build that abuses cyberlimbs, I and some others put the line at your natural value (before racial mods) being < 3/ the Cyberlimb value after racial mods are subtracted. So for example for a Human that's an arm past 6 Agility when the character has 2, and for an Elf that'd be past 7 when the character has 3.
-
Using cyber arms is not. Using cyber arms to have an Agility score that is completely maxed out to put attribute points in other places (such as the hacker with the "Cyber Arm of Awesome") is very much Pure Gouda.
What exactly is the point of cyber arms in your mind?
What reasons would anyone have to get cyberarms if they did not increase you abilities in any way (you claim that raising attributes or shoving armor in them is "cheese.")
Seeing as how pretty much every street sam throughout each edition has had cyberarms for the purpose of increasing combat abilities, I'd say that it's pretty fair to say the point of them is to pump points into their attributes and make you more viable in combat.
-
I don't think the intention is to dump stat agility and then get a 9 agility cyber arm.
Or two cyber feet with a total of +6 Armor.
-
As the OP's questions have been answered, I guess it's ok to go off topic now...
I agree with All4BigGuns on this one. I know it's RAW, but this rule allows players to deliberately dump stat STR and AGL, knowing they can cheese up an arm or two to compensate. The fact that arms don't affect limits is nothing but the barest nod to balance.
I also strongly, vehemently, disagree that maxed out limbs are an 'integral part of the chromed street sam build'. The only people who make that claim are the same ones who think there is only way to build each archetype, with carefully min/maxed stats. All their characters end up as carbon copy clones of each other. Does 'carbon copy' even make sense anymore? Why not 'cut and paste' clones of each other... yeah, I like that better. My point is, I don't think every street sam should have Wired Reflexes II, Muscle Replacement II, and two maxed out cyberlimbs; they all carry an Ares Alpha and an Ares Predator, wear an Armored Jacket with Helmet. Show some creativity! There are plenty of perfectly effective builds that don't rely on maxed out limbs to be effective. Well, unless you consider anything less than maximum ineffective.
The point of cyberarms is to increase your stats, yes, but not to allow stat dumping.
In my opinion, cyberarms should only Customize up to your current stat, be that 4 or 6(9). I think they need to be tailored to suit your frame, not grossly exceed it. Once you've Customized them, THEN you can Enhance on top of that. My was allows for a much higher upper end build(for those cheese STR6 Muscle Replacement III Cut-And-Paste street sams, but eliminates the stat dumping AGL 1(9) cheese. And since cost seems to be the only real limiting factor on cuberarms, my way requires a lot of resources to get into the top tier stats, as you need both Muscle Replacement or similar ware, AND Customization.
-
In my opinion, cyberarms should only Customize up to your current stat, be that 4 or 6(9). I think they need to be tailored to suit your frame, not grossly exceed it.
Given the costs already paid for Cyberlimbs, such an act would utterly destroy cyberlimbs. I pay 72k for Agi 9, they pay 99k, and I get a movement rate boost from it.
If you want to prevent abuse, the GM has every right to veto abusive builds. Screwing over people who aren't abusing the system isn't helping.
-
To the OP;
Feel free to ignore the cries of All4BigGuns' arguments about cheese at your own convenience. Your proposed character is completely rules legal, and just because a vocal few have issues with the way cyberlimbs work according to the rules does not make your choice any less valid.
What All4BigGuns and MadBear are stating are their own opinions, not the rules. There, you have been warned.
[opinion]
The point about cyberlimbs not affecting limits is still a good one, though, and in and of itself should be more than sufficient to prevent stat dumping. A character with a physical limit of 1 or 2 is not going to be very good at sneaking, something which almost every shadowrunner might need to do at some point. I think it's ludicrous that some people keep bringing up characters that obviously exploit the system as examples for why the system needs to change, when such abuse can clearly be prevented by GMs who have a problem with said abuse or avoided entirely with house rules. But that's just me
[/opinion]
-
If you had a Strength 1 or Agility 1, why on earth would you not replace your natural limbs with cyberware?
Sure, you might be able to train and get there naturally, but cyberware is quicker and easier. If there is one thing we know about society, it's that a ton of people are much interested in quick and easy than hard work to get somewhere.
As for dump stats. Cyberlimbs don't allow you to dump stat without consequence. Even without the limit rule (which helps balance greatly on a Str 1 character), you still only have a high Agi/Str with that arm. That's only a handful of skills. To get that stat applicable everywhere, you'd have to replace pretty much your whole body. Essence and nuyen balance that out.
I also strongly, vehemently, disagree that maxed out limbs are an 'integral part of the chromed street sam build'.
What exactly does chrome mean to you, because cyberlimbs is where that term came from for ware. Cyberlimbs aren't integral to making a combat character, but they have been integral to every editions street sam archetype. Every edition uses them to get higher combat stats. This isn't new, it is the way the game and setting has been designed.
As for creativity, cyberlimbs aren't the "maximum" choice. They are the easiest and fastest choice. Look at the rules. As a human, I can get my agility up to 6 (7 with Exceptional Att) and 10 with augmentations (11 with Exception Att). With cyberlimbs I am capped at 6(7) for the arm and only +3 from enhancements, making the total 9 (10). You're always one point below maximum performance.
-
To those who think cyberlimbs should only be customizable up to your natural attribute value: if you're okay with nerfing cyberlimbs to the point where they can only go to +3, when both RAW and RAI are "they can go beyond +4, unlike regular augmentations", be my guest, go against designer intent and houserule it. But there's ways to prevent cyberlimb cheese that don't require being a jerk about it.
My proposed houserule offers a solution which prevents cheesing without taking a nerf bat to cyberlimbs out of pure spite:
- You're not allowed to take Exceptional Attribute unless you either hardcap or softcap the attribute.
- If you have an attribute at its racial minimum, your cyberlimb can only be customized up to [minimum + 2] (examples: 1->3 for most cases, 5->7 for Troll Strength).
- If you have an attribute at [racial minimum + 1], your cyberlimb can only be customized up to [minimum + 5] (examples: 2->6 for most cases, 6->10 for Troll Strength).
- If you have an attribute at [racial minimum + 2] or more, your cyberlimb functions normally (customization up to natural maximum, maximum enhancement is +3).
-
(you claim that raising attributes or shoving armor in them is "cheese.")
No, I say that using the cyber limbs to have a low natural Agility while getting the benefits of a maxed out Agility is cheese. I have no problem with the armor portion of it (I realize that whether you have 12 armor or 35 armor, there is still a chance of getting one-shot ganked--had it happen with 22 a couple times).
To the OP;
Feel free to ignore the cries of All4BigGuns' arguments about cheese at your own convenience. Your proposed character is completely rules legal, and just because a vocal few have issues with the way cyberlimbs work according to the rules does not make your choice any less valid.
What All4BigGuns and MadBear are stating are their own opinions, not the rules. There, you have been warned.
Neither of us claimed that the limbs did work any different than they do. We were stating that the limbs are a massive abuse-fest waiting to happen in their current state.
-
How do they get the benefits of maxed out agility? I'm only seeing them get partial benefits of maxed out agility. Lop off enough parts to get limbs in every slots, and they have to sacrifice a lot when it comes right down to it.
I'm not seeing the abuse, maybe you should crunch the numbers of it.
-
You don't see the abuse of a mental focused character (like a decker) with 1 in agility getting a agility 9 cyberarm which let him become a master marksman?
Would be more resonable if you could only customize a cyberlimb up to two more than your natural rating or so (but still limited by your metatype maximum) and then up to 3 points of enhancements ontop of that. That way agility 4 character can still get agility 6(9) cyberarm, but agility 1 character can only get a agility 3(6) cyberarm.
Would also be resonable that you could buy the cyberlimb that start at three less than your metatype maximum and not three less of human maximum (so that a troll buying a cyberlimb made for trolls does not have to start out at strength 3 which is far from even the minimum troll strength, instead a troll cyberlimb would start out at 7)
Dermal Plating, Orthoskin, Magic Armor etc etc are all rather balanced. a single cyberlimb foot with +3 armor is better than them all. combined. there is no balance there.
Would also be more resonable if you can only enhance a foot / hand with 1 point per enhancement type and a partial limb with a maximum of 2 points. That way you can not get +6 armor on two feet, only +2 - but it will not affect people that get full limbs.
But all of the above are just ideas for house rules. According to RAW it is perfectly legal to get a 9 agility right arm even if you have natural agility 1. It is also legal to get +9 armor from two feet and a left hand.
-
The rouse rule I'm using for cyberlimb attributes right now is really simple and, IMO, more reasonable and balanced than both RAW and most "fixes" I'm used to see here, that nerf cyberlimbs to the point they are pointless as a tactical choice. In my table, cyberlimbs follow the maximum augmented attribute rule like everything else in the game. Yes, simple as that, the rule is the same regardless of your attributes or the way you modify them.
For cyberlimb armor I'm using the same limits as Xenon (1 armor for hand/feet, 2 for partial limbs).
-
I still think it's a needless nerf, and to be frank you're still making them rather worthless unless someone wants to use their Capacity to the full tactical optimum. For purely stats they're worthless like that.
-
You don't see the abuse of a mental focused character (like a decker) with 1 in agility getting a agility 9 cyberarm which let him become a master marksman?
No, I don't. He is only good at things that involve that one arm (pistols through SMGs for shooting). He's still a bumbling klutz for everything else. He's paying a good chunk of change and some essence for a bit of a combat boost. Combat boosts are the easiest to get, how is this a problem?
If he's running right, he shouldn't be having to shoot too often anyway, making the investment even worse.
As for armor, I see it the opposite way around. Dermal Plating and Orthoskin should be cheaper. Keep in mind though, if you start pumping three armor in each of your hands/feet, you're limiting yourself on the stats for those hands/feet. In the end, it all evens out balance wise. I haven't seen the armor, or stats, upset the balance in any point really. Usually the supposed "Arm O' Doom" builds can't hold their own in combat much better than their non-Arm O' Doom versions.
-
I still think it's a needless nerf, and to be frank you're still making them rather worthless unless someone wants to use their Capacity to the full tactical optimum. For purely stats they're worthless like that.
That is the entire point. Getting the cyber limbs should be to get the other stuff put into them not because you can still shoot like a special forces sniper with a 1 Agility.
That said, I can potentially see, now, allowing 1 point higher than the natural attribute value. This would kill the abusive uses and at the same time kill the gripes about only being able to get +3 enhance instead of +4 (though upping enhancement to 4 maximum instead of 3 would be better).
-
Well if he has a special forces sniper skill set, he'd still be able to shoot pretty well with a 1 agility to be honest. Assuming he takes the time to aim (like snipers do) and uses his smart link, an Agility 1 special forces sniper (giving a 9 skill here to be accurate) could still be rolling 12 dice or 4 average hits.
So state of the art cutting edge gear (which a capped out cyberlimb is supposed to be) shouldn't equal great skill? I think you're playing the wrong game. There is a reason the genre is called cyberpunk, not, skill punk.
You seem to be basing your opinion on gut reaction rather than any actual balance or math still.
-
Funny how the biggest and most stalwart defenders of the ludicrous price hikes on a number of other implants are also the most stalwart defenders of what has been the single largest loophole exploit in the entire game for going on at least two editions now.
Lets put it this way, if cyber limbs are somehow not a problem in their current state, that is more than proof that the Mystic Adept "errata" was even more unnecessary.
-
Thanks all for the opinions. As a GM I'd tend to side on the 9 agility as fair game. It is mechanical after all, with obvious advantage. I also tend to agree that getting a Cyberarm is MUCH easier than going to the gym regularly, so if you don't mind selling your soul...
That being said, I did say his agility is 3, not 1. An ability of 1 is a special. You're cerebral palsy is probably going to interfere with your CAoA.
-
On a slightly different note: I know we're not mentioning strength, but I keep thinking of this (Arrested Development Season 4 Spoilers):
(http://img2-3.timeinc.net/ew/i/2013/05/28/Arrested-Development-ep-14.jpg)
-
So state of the art cutting edge gear (which a capped out cyberlimb is supposed to be) shouldn't equal great skill?
The cost of getting [up to] +8 to pistol skill using a cyberarm is not as high as if you want to get +8 to pistol skill using adept powers.
(1.0 essence and 49 500 nuyen - vs - 4.0 power points)
The cost of getting +6 armor using two cyber feet is not as high as if you want to get +6 armor using adept powers or dermal plating.
(0.625 essence and 36 750 nuyen - vs - 3.0 power points - vs - 3.0 essence, 18 000 nuyen and availability of 16)
Mystic Armor and Dermal Plating, however, ARE balanced towards each other.
Instead of making all spells (Armor Spell), adept abilities (Mystic Armor) and augmentations (Dermal armor, Orthoskin, Bone lacing...) that give armor overpowered (compared to people that does not use them) why not balance the armor bonus from cyberlimbs to acceptable levels (by limit foot/hand to max +1 armor and partial limbs to max +2 armor)?
The point i am trying to make is that here is a [huge] balance issue.
Everything have a price...
Well, for some types of builds you can get cyberlimbs without really paying the price.
But,
Getting 9 agility arm IS balanced if you at least have a natural, non-augmented, agility of 3+
Getting +3 armor per limb IS balanced if you get it on full limbs (a used obvious full limb cost 2.5 essence)
-
The thing is, having low agility and/or strength sucks. You can't really do much of anything physical - which includes running and sneaking, two things that are absolutely going to come up often in a run.
"I can shoot a pistol really good having put six points into the skill and burnt a full essence point and a ton of nuyen into it" is not a balance issue. Compared to an actual combat guy with high agility, that decker - and let's be honest, you are pretty much referring directly to my decker (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiyXHbBTERtkdHpqd1hmdlZWODB6ZlRYQVM3VGNhUWc&usp=sharing) as was linked in a previous thread - can barely move in or out of combat, can't sneak around, probably drowns in waist-high water, is terrible at trying to sneak and likely bumbles into everything, and . But oh man, he can wave a pistol, look out! This isn't a loophole, nor is this in any way cheese - and you better believe the 2 in agility and strength have bitten me before.
Oh, but I shot a dude once, man. RUINING THE GAME!
Cyberlimbs need a mechanical purpose. Right now it is "buffing up low stats." Now, you can change that mechanical purpose to something else, by all means, but you have to actively do that. If all you do is restrict cyberlimbs to the +4, why would anyone ever get one over the far essence cheaper bioware that applies to the whole body? For example, you want cyberlimbs to exist primarily for the goofy cyber-additions that are bound to come or for armor? That's easy - allow someone to boost agility or strength to +4 instead of +3, but now all cyberlimbs start at your physical stats rather then 3.
As for cyberlimb armor, it's less that armor is messed up and more that partial cyberlimbs have always been kinda half-done.
-
Cyberarms do not add to skill. So, not, you don't get to +8 pistols from the cyberarm. You get +8 agility for that one arm.
Again, I don't see an issue with cyberware armor. If you're replacing all your hands and feet and popping in +3 armor, you're limiting your effective agility to 6(7).
That's not a good deal for anyone that's actually going to be a combat based character. You're dropping by a full hit on average.
I've already stated that the other sources of armor are overpriced (both essence, nuyen, and point cost). Armor has been getting less and less useful as editions go on, but it's keeping the same costs.
[quality]Getting 9 agility arm IS balanced if you at least have a natural, non-augmented, agility of 3+[/quality]
So, 25 karma is the big issue here?
Let's actually look at some math for a moment.
-A normal human can get from a 3 to 5 in agility for a mere 45 karma.
-To get his attribute to a 9, he can spend 124k and .8 essence on Muscle Augmentation.
-Alternatively he can spend 100k and 4 essence on Muscle Replacement.
If a cyberarm user wanted to be functionally the same, he'd need all four limbs replaced (A strict GM might require a torso for many things as well, but I'll go with a less strict ruling).
-Four limbs cost 60k base.
-Another 60k is needed to get the limbs up to a customization of 6.
-Another 78k is needed to get cyber enhancements at level three for agility in all the limbs.
-Total of 198k and 4 essence. He's paying a markup of either 98k or 74k over the non-cyberlimb user. He also is capped out on his agility where the normal person would still be able to increase by 1 more (for 30 karma).
If the character is only snagging a single limb, it isn't going to help him with a lot of skills. He's only getting a part of the benefit.
Now the biggest argument I see is, it's too cheap! I'm not seeing it. Proportionally is seems to be just fine compared to other options.
-
"I can shoot a pistol really good having put six points into the skill and burnt a full essence point and a ton of nuyen into it" is not a balance issue. Compared to an actual combat guy with high agility, that decker - and let's be honest, you are pretty much referring directly to my decker (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiyXHbBTERtkdHpqd1hmdlZWODB6ZlRYQVM3VGNhUWc&usp=sharing) as was linked in a previous thread - can barely move in or out of combat, can't sneak around, probably drowns in waist-high water, is terrible at trying to sneak and likely bumbles into everything, and . But oh man, he can wave a pistol, look out! This isn't a loophole, nor is this in any way cheese - and you better believe the 2 in agility and strength have bitten me before.
No, it very much is a loophole exploit and it very much is pure cheddar.
Yes, Deckers are very much at the center of the problem here. It was back in the previous edition when a good chunk of people would be telling those asking for hacker advice to "get a 'cyber arm of awesome'" that I noticed the problem.
Cyberlimbs need a mechanical purpose. Right now it is "buffing up low stats." Now, you can change that mechanical purpose to something else, by all means, but you have to actively do that. If all you do is restrict cyberlimbs to the +4, why would anyone ever get one over the far essence cheaper bioware that applies to the whole body? For example, you want cyberlimbs to exist primarily for the goofy cyber-additions that are bound to come or for armor? That's easy - allow someone to boost agility or strength to +4 instead of +3, but now all cyberlimbs start at your physical stats rather then 3.
They have a mechanical purpose without the attributes. This is the getting the additional components (yes, that is very much a mechanical addition, it just isn't one that is easily and cheesily abused).
If it were feasible under the base rules with no alteration for a character with more standard implants to reach that 9 attribute value, it may not be as bad, but it isn't. Availability and costs are too high on the implants in question. It would still be bad though since to reach a 9 Agility normally, one has to focus a great deal of their attribute points there (as well they should) and buy a maximum rating Muscle Toner or Muscle Replacement, both of which are among the implants that got the ludicrous price hike. It is completely ridiculous to expect to be able to have a 9 Agility cyber arm for less than half what it takes a standard character.
-
we are talking about a characters that focus on mental attributes and skills.
(except a single pistol or automatics skill).
- Like a Decker
But by spending less than 2 essence and 87k nuyen he get +11(!) armor (and higher agility and strength) plus a positive dice pool modifier of +8(!) dice on his pistol or automatics skill. It is RAW legal, but if you don't agree that it is even a little cheezy then you and I have [vastly] different perspective on this matter :)
Enhanced armor is not really an issue for characters that get full limbs anyway.
Enhanced strength and agility is not really an issue for characters get natural agility and strength of 4+ anyway.
Actually quite the opposite. Human cyberlimbs start at strength 3 and agility 3, which is the metatype average rating - IMO an Orc cyberlimb should not start at strength 3 and agility 3 as it does for humans. It should start at 5 strength and 3 agility (before customization). For Trolls; a cyberlimb should start at strength 7 and agility 2.
-
All I see over and over again are proposed nerfs with nothing to add to them. All you'd do is render cyberarms useless.
Again: What mechanical role do you see cyberarms holding? Answer that before you respond.
And yes, again, all people seem to be salty about is that I shoot a pistol real good. You could TRY responding to any of the points Wells or I brought up rather then just stamp your foot and continue to proclaim "NO IT'S CHEESE." But you haven't. You just continue to state that no, it's unfair that I can shoot a pistol good having spend a rather large amount of resources on it.
And incidentally, "by spending less then 2 essence?" Yeah, by spending at least 1/6th of his entire resources that he'll ever have for that character. Let's not pretend a full essence point isn't a big deal to gain one bonus to one skill.
-
And incidentally, "by spending less then 2 essence?" Yeah, by spending at least 1/6th of his entire resources that he'll ever have for that character. Let's not pretend a full essence point isn't a big deal to gain one bonus to one skill.
...and +11 armor ;)
...and the "bonus" is a positive dice pool modifier of up to +8(!) dice
...and still have capacity left in the arm for a cybernetic gyromount which let you run and shoot without a negative dice pool modifier...
(and besides, after cerebral booster -and possible tailored pheromones- there are not really that many augmentations that actually benefit a mental focused character anyway).
WellsIDidIt state that cyberlimbs are not OP if you get multiple full limbs.
I agree.
WellsIDidIt state that cyberlimbs are not OP if you already have moderate to high physical attributes.
I agree.
WellsIDidIt state that armor on hands and feet is bad if you are a physically combat oriented character.
I agree.
ProfessorCirno state that having low physical limit sucks for a physical oriented character.
I agree.
ProfessorCirno state that cyberlimbs should cost less if you have high physical attributes.
I agree.
WellsIDidIt state that all other armor enhancements are underpowered compared to enhanced armor on cyberlimbs
I agree.
-
And incidentally, "by spending less then 2 essence?" Yeah, by spending at least 1/6th of his entire resources that he'll ever have for that character. Let's not pretend a full essence point isn't a big deal to gain one bonus to one skill.
...and +11 armor ;)
...and the "bonus" is a positive dice pool modifier of up to +8(!) dice
...and still have capacity left in the arm for a cybernetic gyromount which let you run and shoot without a negative dice pool modifier...
(and besides, after cerebral booster -and possible tailored pheromones- there are not really that many augmentations that actually benefit a mental focused character anyway).
Where is this plus eleven armour coming from? A single full cyberarm will give you three, and only if you decide to use capacity and cash on it. As for the whole idea of getting two hands and two feet loaded with armour, that is easily countered by your table having a GM.
That up to eight dice only counts for a small handful on tests, pretty much just attacking with one handed weapons and, if your GM is really generous, possibly palming.
The cyber gyromount also takes up half the space in the arm for just ignoring three dice worth of recoil or movement penalties, and if you want to have the gyromount you can no longer get three ranks for strength, agility, and armour each in the arm.
As for the cyber, there is plenty that benefits mental focused characters. The two you mentioned in addition to cybereyes, cyberears, control rigs if you're a rigger, olfactory boosters, skilljacks, implanted commlinks and cyberdecks, wired reflexes, synaptic boosters, reflex recorders, sleep regulators, mnemonic enhancers and those are just the obvious ones I can think of. All of that adds up to a lot of essence that you've already spent on one limb that does a very small number of things at the level of someone who actually focuses on it, but gimps you in every other area related to it. You ever try playing with a walking rate of two meters every three seconds? The average person walks almost twice as fast as a one agility character, they'd have to break into a light jog everywhere they went to keep up.
-
All you'd do is render cyberarms useless.
No, cyber arms just wouldn't be "OMGWTFBBQ, practically all hackers pick one up" kind of good the way they are now (though hackers don't need to even know how to use a gun anymore with how they can now completely shut down a Street Sam without leaving the van).
-
Odd, I have yet to see a hacker take one in 4E or 5E. I also have yet to see a hacker that would benefit from having a low agility and a "arm o' doom." Then again, people I play with tend to stick to the shadows and stealth. Stealth needs agility. They also have a tendency to have to climb around, which again uses agility. Lockpicking isn't uncommon for them. Given that can be another character, but whoever does it needs agility. So the arm o' doom can do what, shoot well? I guess that comes in handy when you've botched the job, but the people I play with tend to play smart instead of tripping over the nearest crack in the floor, falling down, and shooting people.
-
Where is this plus eleven armour coming from?
2 used feet, 1 used left hand. All three enhanced with +3 used armor
1 full right arm. customized with +3 agility and enhanced with +2 armor and +3 agility
= 87k nuyen and less than 2 essence
The investment would be vastly higher if he want to get a positive dice pool modifier of 8 dice on his pistol skill and +11 armor using other augmentations, adept power and/or spells. The benefit is simply too great for the relatively small cost (which is pretty much the definition of something that is not balanced).
Here, let me put it in perspective; 2 essence is basically the same as 2 power points (at least for a physical adept that mostly only use his first magic points at chargen for free power points anyway). For 2 power points an adept decker only get +4 armor or a positive dice pool modifier of +4 dice to his pistol skill. If the adept decker instead invest less than 2 essence (and indirect also 2 magic and 2 power points) in augmentations he get +11 armor and a positive dice pool modifier of 8 dice to his pistol/automatics skill.
With my proposed house rule he would only get +5 armor and a positive dice pool modifier of +6 dice to his pistol/automatics skill.
Still powerful, but at least it is not as abusive.
...that is easily countered by your table having a GM.
Why would it be countered by a GM if it is working as intended??
..or are you agreeing that cyberlimbs can be a bit abusive (in some special situations)?
...you can no longer get three ranks for strength...
Yes, there are other stuff a Decker could use the extra capacity in his arm for instead of a gyromount (internal Cyberdeck comes to mind)
- but why would a mentally focused character (like a a Decker) ever want to enhance the arm with strength...?
(Note that having the ability to run and at the same time use suppressive fire with a machine pistol or sub machine gun without a negative dice pool modifier should not be underestimated. When you are running you get a positive dice pool modifier of 2 dice to avoid getting hit from all attacks [including melee] and ranged attackers all get a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice to hit. It also last the entire combat turn until it your time to act again in the next combat turn... all it cost you is your free action - running basically act as spending a simple action to Take Good Cover - without the need to spend the simple action...and without the need for Good Cover to hide behind or ending up without defensive cover if flanked).
Odd, I have yet to see a hacker take one in 4E or 5E.
ProfessorCirno just showcased his decker ;)
But he could have done more.
Going Human E and Magic D for example
- Spend up to 3 or 4 Essence worth of augmentations
- And then spend Karma to raise his Magic Rating from 0
This either give him free Power Points(!)
...or give him the ability to cast utility spells (who needs stealth skill and a physical limit when you can cast improved invisibility and stealth spells)
...or the ability to summon spirits(!) :D
...people I play with tend to stick to the shadows and stealth. Stealth needs agility. They also have a tendency to have to climb around, which again uses agility. Lockpicking isn't uncommon for them...
Yes, the arm of awesomeness is not really going to help your Breaking & Entry-expert much since she will almost exclusively depend on her physical limit and having overall high natural agility and strength ratings (and after that she is probably augmented or enhanced even further).
-
2 essence is basically the same as 2 power points
This is where your thinking is flawed, and it seems to the base of your issues.
Essence is not equal to PP. There is no equivalent exchange rate.
+4 dice to his pistol skill.
You're making the wrong comparison here as well. To be comparable he would need to be increasing his agility, but only in one arm. There is no Adept Power that does that. The closest is agility across the whole body. That caps out at +4 for 4 PP.
Let's take a look at Some options though. Muscle Replacement increases both Agility and Strength by 1 for 1 essence. (It's twice as good as improving an attribute with PP using your exchange rate). Alternatively, Muscle Augmentation increases Agility by 1 for .2 essence. That's less than 1 essence for a +4 increase. That's over 4 times better using your exchange rate.
-
Yeah, I have to agree that two essence is not the same as two power points, and about the only thing I see exploitative about cyberlimbs is going the two hand, two feet loaded with armour deal which, again, is solved by your table having a GM.
Edit: Grammar.
-
Sorry to interject as this may not be entirely on topic to the subject of the potential OPness of cyberlimbs. As I player, when I consider the option of dumping stats in favor of enhanced limbs I always remember the potential of my GM to include a mage/mystic adept with the Decrease Attribute spell. If the GM ever feels that a street sam or mega-arm decker is abusing the system by dumping physical stats a single touch spell specialized mage can shut them down with an embarrassingly low force spell. This is also one of the reasons that I'm completely loathe to ever use cyberlimbs.
-
You're right Elizara, but this can also happen to the Troll Adept with a low CHA or the ...Elfen Decker with a low KON
(just as an example)
bytheway Lower Attribute CHA is one of my favorite defense Spells for a Healer Mage
Lots of combat orientated Chars ( especially Orks & Trolls) are quite susceptible to that Spell
HougH!
Medicineman
-
I've already stated that partial cyberlimbs are an issue mostly because they're crowbar'd into the full limb rules without counterbalancing for them. If you have an issue with those, that's a different thing altogether.
But spending a full point of essence and a grip of nuyen to improve one skill? Sorry, I don't see that as being overpowered at all. My decker still has 2 Agility, something that's absolutely come up to bite him. He just happens to be good at shooting his pistol or throwing his molotovs/jammers.
Nor, incidentally, is the cyberarm in any way equivalent to the adept power. The cyberarm brings you to one point below max. The adept power brings you OVER the max, beyond what any amount of 'ware can do for you.All you'd do is render cyberarms useless.
No, cyber arms just wouldn't be "OMGWTFBBQ, practically all hackers pick one up" kind of good the way they are now (though hackers don't need to even know how to use a gun anymore with how they can now completely shut down a Street Sam without leaving the van).
Name literally any character that would willingly give up a full point of essence and a grip of nuyen in order to get an arm that is objectively worse then their normal limitations.
-
A mundane, with dump stats of strength or agility..... like a rigger or a decker?
Someone in a limited adventure might do so for a combat character, since they will never reach the augment max for either stat anyway....
-
The problem with that is that the arm o' doom doesn't really let them compete in combat in that case. It let's them shoot a bit better, but they'll still get slaughtered. It pretty much just works as a last ditch effort for them, and that's the way the cyberarm works for them normally. There is no issue with the normal rules other than people OMG he's skipping 25 karma (not really accurate as the 25 karma would have applied to everything not just the arm, so it's really more like 6.25 karma since you're getting a quarter of the benefit).
-
1(2) agility + 6 in automatics with a sub machine pistol specialization give you a dice pool of 10 dice.
...a cyberarm with 6(9) give you a dice pool of 17 dice. that is a 7 dice pool increase.
That would be 114 Karma worth of dice if you were to sink in into Automatics skill or 135 Karma +1 more point of muscle toner or muscle replacement if you get it from attributes (but that would also give you faster movement rate and higher skill pools for other physical skills other than one handed firearms skills so it is not really comparable).
To get that +7 dice pool increase from other sources than a cyberarm you would have to spend quite a lot of karma, money or power points... ;)
(again, everything have a price... just that the price for this +7 dice pool positive modifier is too low).
(...and with the +11 armor we talked about earlier... and an armored jacked + a helmet you have an armor rating of 25 armor; that is far from fragile. Not sure why you think he would be slaughtered)
-
All the others affect all automatics skill uses or all agility uses.
Again, not that big of a deal since the arm is only affecting part of the uses..
Take a look at visual enhancement. It gives what, a +1 bonus per 500 nuyen. It's capped by capacity pretty much, but a +6 to your visual perception only costs 3k. Similar costs there, but very cheap as it's only to part of the skill's use.
-
Here is another question about cyberlimbs, this time when interacting with magic, please bear with me
How might the increased attribute spell affect a cyberlimb, if at all?
The spell itself requires that its force be at least equal to the augmented attribute, but a limb is not an augmented attribute, so what happens in the following circumstances
Character with STR 4 and a limb STR 5, receives an increased ATT STR spell cast at force 4 (Should be no brainer, only increases natural STR possibly making the cyberlimb the weak limb), but what if cast at force 5, could it increase the cyberlimb STR as well? (You have paid essence for it) If so, would it receive the same increase, thus staying 1 point above the new augmented value, or would it only increase to match the new augmented STR?
i.e. The mage increases the characters STR by 3 to a total STR of 4(7) for the character, would the limb (If cast at force 5) still be at STR 5, equal the augmented STR at 7, or get it's own 3 added to reach 8.
I would ask for your opinions/official answers first, followed by (If you must) how this increasingly cheesifies the now AGI 1(5) character with a cyberlimb agility at 9.
And FYI, I am considering this in regards to my own cyberlimbed mage with a natural agility of 5, but a higher agility in her arm after she is able to upgrade to the shiny new betagrade model.
-
It shouldn't affect the cyberarm at all, because the arm is not the subject, the person is the subject.
The spell increases the subjects attribute, not the arm's attribute. "Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings." A character with a Str. 5 cyberarm never actually has that Str 5 (unless his actual Str is 5). Instead he uses the limbs attribute in place of his own ("When a particular limb is used for a test (such as
leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber)"), averages it into his own, or takes the lowest of it or his own.
He paid essence for the limb, not the limbs customization or enhancements.
-
Here is another question about cyberlimbs, this time when interacting with magic, please bear with me
How might the increased attribute spell affect a cyberlimb, if at all?
Not at all. It only increases your own Attributes, not that of the cyberlimb. The cyberlimb's stats are unrelated to your own after all.
-
In other words, that is another balancing downside. You can't benefit from other attribute enhancers, since they don't affect the limb.
-
Funny how the biggest and most stalwart defenders of the ludicrous price hikes on a number of other implants are also the most stalwart defenders of what has been the single largest loophole exploit in the entire game for going on at least two editions now.
Lets put it this way, if cyber limbs are somehow not a problem in their current state, that is more than proof that the Mystic Adept "errata" was even more unnecessary.
Not really. Cyberarms are only broken if you make an abusive build, mystic adepts were broken unless you went out of your way to build a weak character.
Still I'd be okay if cyberarms got changed, the benefit should not be smaller for the archetypical chromed street sam than it is for the decker. Sure tie it to your normal stats, but instead of a +3 enhancement max make it +5 allowing it to break the augmented limit. A cyberarm should beat a meat arm even a biotech meat arm.
-
WellsIDidIt and Michael, thank you for the quick answer, they agree with my initial gut feeling but I lacked a good explanation as to why that would be the case.
-
Still I'd be okay if cyberarms got changed, the benefit should not be smaller for the archetypical chromed street sam than it is for the decker. Sure tie it to your normal stats, but instead of a +3 enhancement max make it +5 allowing it to break the augmented limit. A cyberarm should beat a meat arm even a biotech meat arm.
Honestly I feel like just allowing it to go to +4 but starting at your base stats would be enough, maybe give them slightly more room to stuff things in. Sammies with strength 6 can hit strength 10 with the arm and pack in a bunch of armor and agility and all the wonderful gizmos and gadgets and don't have to pay a bunch extra just to meet they're pre-existing stats, the decker with agility 2 is limited to 6 rather then 9, and either way it only applies to the one limb so bioware still very definitely has a place.
-
ProfessorCirno
That's the smoothest solution I've seen yet. An AGI 1 character would have to customize the arm up to 6, then enhance it to 10 to max it out, essentially using 9 of 15 cap and a ton of nuyen to do so.
Elegant, I like it.
Difference between current and proposed maxed out single arm for a low agility character (since this is what some people keep harping on about):
Currently, a standard grade obvious arm is 15k and 1 Essence, and starts at AGI/STR3 with an availability of 4.
Each customization for AGI or STR costs +5000 nuyen and adds 1 availability.
Each enhancement for AGI or STR costs 6500 nuyen and has it's own availability.
A standard grade obvious cyberarm with AGI9 thus costs 15000+(3*5000=15000)+(3*6500=19500)=49500 (ironically the same as the cheapest deck), and has an availability of 4+(3*1)=7, and 9R for the enhancements.
Under the proposed changes, the same arm, assuming AGI1, would cost 15000+(5*5000=25000)+(3*6500=19500)=59500 with an availability of 9 and 9R. This is the equivalent of 29.75 karma (using the karma to nuyen conversion ratio of 1:2000), and the character could add an additional AGI1 for 6500 nuyen more, but the enhancement would then be 12R.
I would propose making the enhancements (4 x Rating)R under this system, as well as make customization take up capacity as well. Unlike under the current rules, the AGI1 character will have to spend 9 capacity, vs an AGI 6 character only needing to spend 4 capacity to get to AGI 10, as well as significantly less nuyen. It also takes care of trolls and orks getting a little more bang for their buck, and ensures they can buy more appropriate limbs at chargen without resorting to used grade.
Cheers, ProfessorCirno, I think your proposed change balances the cost of cybernetics nicely. I might very well propose this as a houserule;
-
If i were a developer I would apply the following 5 rules on cyberlimbs:
1) Cyberlimbs start at your metatype minimum rating (agility 2 for elves, strength 3 for trolls and orks and strength 5 for trolls. 1 for the rest)
2) Cyberlimbs can be customized up to your natural, non-augmented, rating (possible even post installment; in case your natural rating increase?).
3) Cyberlimbs can be enhanced 3 (or maybe even 4?) points on-top of it's customized rating.
4) Cyber-feet and -hands does not benefit from armor enhancements at all.
5) Partial limbs only benefit from half of enhanced armor rating.
@martinchaen
What are you talking about? :)
ProfessorCirno basically said:
- Remove the option to customize cyberarms entirely...
- Let cyberlimbs instead start at your natural rating (even if under rating 3 or if you have a strength of 10).
- Increase cyberlimb attribute enhancements from max +3 to max +4
-
Oooh, then I disagree with his assessment entirely :-)
Yep, something like what you describe is what I'd go for, Xenon. Then again, I play a heavily augmented street Sam (four limbs out of chargen, 400k invested) with the current rules, and it works all right most of the time.
-
I find that if the limb has the same limitations as you have through other means, said other means will always more more attractive. But if your attributes are too low, your limits will be quite terrible, which helps balance things out. In the case of Strength especially, you get only a small portion of the benefit.
-
I'd remove customisation and the artificial set of attributes from the purchasing process of cyberlimbs entirely. Cyberlimb attributes are your natural attributes at the time of purchase. Enhancements act as normal. When your natural attributes change, cyberlimb attributes don't - customisation comes in here as a cost to bring their natural attributes up to current.
Then they can be priced on capacity and appearance.
-
I'd remove customisation and the artificial set of attributes from the purchasing process of cyberlimbs entirely. Cyberlimb attributes are your natural attributes at the time of purchase. Enhancements act as normal. When your natural attributes change, cyberlimb attributes don't - customisation comes in here as a cost to bring their natural attributes up to current.
Then they can be priced on capacity and appearance.
That was actually what I was trying to say hahaha. When you buy a cyberlimb, your stats are your cyberlimb stats. From there you can add enhancements. The end! Oh, wait, give cyberlimbs more space since the big draw of a cyberimb should be the cool gadgets. But still; cyberlimb base stats = your base stats, enhancements and gadgets only.
-
That's really close to how I would to it. My idea is to start limbs out at STR, AGL, and Armor 3, and then you pay to Customize them up to your current (augmented)Attribute. Enhancements add on after that, with a cap of +4. STR6(9), then you Customize up to 9, and can Enhance an additional 4. Yes, that allows for higher upper end results, IF you've already paid for additional augmentation like Muscle Replacement.
I think Armor should also be a Customization, to account for Troll dermal plating and Bone Lacing and such, so there is a limiting factor with cost.
A cybernetic limb should not be a discreet piece of equipment slapped onto your body, it should be customized to function at the same level as the rest of your body, to work with your body instead of on its own; and if that's Agl 5, Str 5(7) and Armor 2, then that's the level the limb should be built to function at.
-
So on one hand you're taking away cyberlimbs as a proper alternative for weak characters, and on the other side you're screwing over Adepts and force all Street Sams to take Cyberlimbs. And that is bollocks. It should be an alternative, with upsides and downsides, over augmentating through other means. Not a stick for everyone who doesn't replace both their arms.
-
I'd remove customisation and the artificial set of attributes from the purchasing process of cyberlimbs entirely. Cyberlimb attributes are your natural attributes at the time of purchase. Enhancements act as normal. When your natural attributes change, cyberlimb attributes don't - customisation comes in here as a cost to bring their natural attributes up to current.
Then they can be priced on capacity and appearance.
That sounds like a horrible idea.
-
So on one hand you're taking away cyberlimbs as a proper alternative for weak characters, and on the other side you're screwing over Adepts and force all Street Sams to take Cyberlimbs. And that is bollocks. It should be an alternative, with upsides and downsides, over augmentating through other means. Not a stick for everyone who doesn't replace both their arms.
How do you figure?
A cyberarm with +4 to a stat (much less two stats) would cost FAR less in both nuyen and essence then it's equivalent bioware, yes. It also applies to only one limb. Two cyberarms would be more expensive in essence but still less expensive in nuyen. Going for all our limbs, the cyberarms become more expensive in both.
"Weak" characters would still get more bang for their buck with a single cyberarm. Sammies would have to decide between slightly better essence, higher limits, and overall better stats, or I admit a very heavy discount on nuyen, more armor, more life boxes, and potential for ~*~gadgets~*~. I suppose the return is "do you use this stat for more then just gunplay?"
I can see the unbalance for characters who care only for their arms, though. Would you find the balance between the two better if the cyberarms were still limited to +3 but still started on your base stats? My general goal is to give sammies a reason to grab cyberarms beyond "because they completely dumped their stats." Cyberlimbs as it stands now are essentially only for characters who dumped agility and strength. Mind you this is also assuming all prices remain the same.
-
So are we pretending there's any character who takes cyberlimbs for the "gadgets"?
-
Only Inspector, but he's a bumbling idiot after all.
-
I took cyberlimbs for the Hydraulic Jacks (until I realized that unlike the limit for running which is increased by 1 per rating, the dice pool bonus is just a flat 1 according to RAW), concealed weapons (one silenced machine pistol in the left hand, one spur and one shock hand as the righ), the smuggling compartments (two large ones in each leg) and the armor (none at chargen, adding a rating here and there as cash flows).
So while stats were certainly part of the equation, I paid 400k for my four cyberlimbs because it fit the story of my character (1), to be more effective at certain things such as combat (2), and for utilitarian purposes (or gadgets, as you call them; very difficult to detect weapons due to having 6+ pieces of standard or alpha grade cyberware, ability to smuggle large amounts of illegal items or hide important items on one's body (which again would be hard to detect due to the massive amounts of cyberware), and good old plain rule of cool).
-
So are we pretending there's any character who takes cyberlimbs for the "gadgets"?
I'm of the belief that every mechanical choice should have a mechanical reason behind it tied to the fluff.
So I Look at cyberarms. What makes cyberarms stand out, mechanically.
1) They can have more armor
2) The can raise your stats above both max and their basic line
3) There's always a bunch of different "utility" functions you can instal into them.
4) They independently raise one limb
Then we look at it's bioware counterpart
1) It can raise stats above max farther then chrome
2) It costs less essence
3) It applies to the whole body, including limits
So the big mechanical "Hey, pick me!" things about cyberware are numbers 1 and 3.
Now, we want cyberlimbs to be something that FIGHT characters want. Currently cyberlimbs have a rather notable problem for FIGHT characters - they start at attribute 3, while your character might have way more then that; in other words, the limb actually weakens your character. Furthermore, it is relatively easy to get Used Muscle Toner 3 to apply to your whole body, rather then a single arm at +3 Agility. Most FIGHT characters are going to want to use a two handed weapon - be it rifle or melee - and thus will need a minimum of two cyberlimbs, which would cost them 2 full points of essence - not a small amount.
We also want to minimize the "death arm" that people have been calling cheese for the sake of this argument. The "death arm" occurs because it is relatively easy to get one cyberarm and max it out, especially if your normal physical stats are rather weak.
So we want cyberlimbs to be more attractive. The two ways to do that are to minimize it's problems and build up it's strengths. As mentioned, one of the issues with cyberlimbs is that they start BELOW where your stats would already be at, so having cyberlimbs start at your base stats rather then at 3 would make them better for FIGHT guys. This would also make the "death arm" less attractive - but still useful - for the weaker, non-FIGHT characters. Next would be to build off the strengths. Cyberlimbs are already really good at armor. If you want more armor, cyberlimbs are fantastic at it, to the point of the dumb and cheesy Super Foot. So that point is fairly well maximized. That leaves the utility applications - the stuff bioware cannot do (again, the goal is to distinguish chrome from bio).
Thus my emphasis on the utility stuff. The reason people never grab the utility stuff is that they fill their limbs up on the "important" things - agility, strength, armor, and a gyromount. I would put forth that increasing cyberlimb capacity would allow that utility stuff to be used more, as it is currently mostly ignored. Think of it this way: in SR5, the number of knowledge skills characters get was cut down harshly. This was to try to push players to spend more karma on knowledge skills. Has that happened? Or do players simply shrug and go with less? Likewise, how often do players give up armor and the gyromount for a detachable hand?
-
That sounds like a horrible idea.
Not only a reply of little use, but also one that encourages no productive response. Did you have anything in mind beyond the knee jerk?
-
That sounds like a horrible idea.
Not only a reply of little use, but also one that encourages no productive response. Did you have anything in mind beyond the knee jerk?
Hey, if the shoe fits. I just didn't feel like going through the whole "the designers deliberately made cyberlimbs not subject to the +4 augmentation limit so that they could be stronger than a +4 - making them +0, not to mention the fact that by RAW, their values wouldn't be augmented by 'ware, adept powers, drugs and magic the way the rest of the body is, means your cyberlimb would be weaker than the rest of you, which means that even if you put a fancy weapon in there, you'll probably have fewer dice on attacking with it than if you were to just use the weapon normally. So all in all, that sounds like a horrible idea." thing again. You know, on account of it being totally obvious to anyone whose response to cyberlimb cheese isn't kneejerkingly taking a nerf hammer to cyberlimbs as a whole, rather than putting in a reasonable houserule that prevents the cheese while keeping the designer intent intact. Plus I wasn't in a particularly good mood at the time, and it was either post something that got the message across well enough or add an angry rant explaining just how horrible and ridiculous I thought your idea was. Which I could've told you if you'd just asked me rather than getting into a public slap-fight because someone called your idea bad.
-
Ok. Your entire point looks to boil down to "I interpreted your written idea differently to you". To clear things up on my end, I meant the 3 str / 3 agi, not the separation between natural stats and cyber stats. The part on customisation may have clued you in, but I get that you may have missed it while in a bad mood. Or may simply think the whole thing is bad.
I also find it a bit ridiculous that you think your reply being focused on amounts to a "slap fight", or that this is the kind of thing that deserves to be taken private. I wouldn't have posted here if I didn't want anyone to reply to it, and my base assumption is that you would do the same. (if not, I'd suggest breathing into a paper bag or some other activity when a bad mood takes you)
-
I agree with the "Limbs should initially be equal to whatever your characters' Agi and Str stats are" when you buy them. You raise a stat through karma? You now have to pay X nuyen to increase the limb stat to match. It's just common sense. Make the limbs cost X x Attribute Level so Trolls have to pay more, etc. Increase the limit to +4 like every other enhancement and suddenly Limbs really are balanced. It's not rocket science and I have no clue why they refuse to either make cyberlimbs rules simple or give us more in-depth rules for how to use them. I suppose they are more simple now actually: go back and check out the SR3 cyber book and read the tome of limb rules there that contradict themselves and make things even more difficult than necessary for no reason.
My real complaint about limbs is there's really no official word on exactly what they affect. Yes, a full arm will use the stats of that arm for all actions. However, rules for partial arms or hands are vague. Does a hand or partial arm use it's stats for shooting a gun, for example? I don't know and the devs won't clarify, which causes needless house ruling. I could see it ruled either way, so it has potential for serious cheese if your GM says you use your natural attributes so you don't have to pay for stat raises on your hand to shoot your gun at full rating.
The attributes of partial limbs
(including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but
their attributes only apply for tests directly involving
those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something
with an enhanced cyberhand)..
-
I think the ruling for partial limbs is about as clear as they can make it really.
they use their stats in a test that JUST uses that part of the body.
If more parts of the body are needed, the cyber becomes less and less effective.
That cyber hand is great for opening that jar of pickles. But less effective when shooting a pistol. And even less effective when firing a rifle.
-
I don't think it's clear at all.
Firing a gun, for example, isn't JUST pulling the trigger. It requires at very least full arm coordination.
You say "it gets less effective" but by the rules as written it does not. Either the hand fully controls shooting a gun, or it does not control it at all (but then what does the base Agi of 3 do for the action)?
Like most things, it would be trivial to put a table into the core rules that explained this type of stuff but they didn't bother and we're still arguing about it 9 months after release.
-
I don't think it's clear at all.
Firing a gun, for example, isn't JUST pulling the trigger. It requires at very least full arm coordination.
You say "it gets less effective" but by the rules as written it does not. Either the hand fully controls shooting a gun, or it does not control it at all (but then what does the base Agi of 3 do for the action)?
Like most things, it would be trivial to put a table into the core rules that explained this type of stuff but they didn't bother and we're still arguing about it 9 months after release.
So? Is shooting a gun just done with the forearm down?
If so, then use the cyber limb stats.
If not, then use the base attribute stat.
Now, as a gun owner and shooter, there is no way you can convince me that the forearm, wrist and hand do all the work in shooting a pistol. So, use base agility please.
Crushing a bottle (with someone else hand wrapped around the bottle) or holding a doorknob closed so a door won't open are feats of forearm strength. Please use your partial cyber limb.
See?
Was that hard?
-
I'm a gun owner and avid shooter as well and I guarantee shooting isn't just done with the wrist down like in a cyberhand. However, others may disagree for in-game purposes.
Take guns out of the equation, what about throwing punches, slashing with a knife, throwing a grenade, operating a lockpick, and on and on? It requires GM fiat when it should be a flat RAW explanation.
The question becomes "Why increase the Agi stat at all when you don't even know what it's used for". This leads easily to the guy with two cyber hands and two cyber feet with jacked up armor with no penalty aside from direct use of the those partial limbs for tests (which are mostly undefined).
Your Cyber Lower arm with the flat 3 agility and 3 strength doesn't seem like it has much drawback for keeping those stats dumped since they don't average with your other stats like a full limb would. On the other hand, if your lower limb/hand's stats DO influence the skills directly then you're paying a lot of nuyen for increased attributes that do not average with the rest of your body which seems like a rip off to me.
-
ok, lets look at it this way.
There was a certain level of intelligence, reason and inituition made by the writers and editors of Shadowrun. They wrote the rules in such a way as to give you a generalist view of how or what a limb (or the matrix, or magic, or purple-people-eaters) can do. From there, it is up to the group of players/GM to decide what task is reliant what part of a limb or given limbs. In effect, the Writers and editors said "we are going to assume our readers are *this* smart" <wave hand in air>. The book ended up being 500 freaking pages long! How much larger, or how many volumes would it be if they assumed their customers were morons?
AS with any game that is powered by imagination, sometimes you have to use it to come to an appropriate ruling on a given device, ritual, spell, code, or ware. Come up with that ruling, remember it, and apply it evenly across the board and move on. Rules are there to guide the game, they are not the game in and of itself.
-
The main book has pages and pages of useless and/or redundant information so I don't think it's asking too much to have one sidebar for a simple rules clarification. A major problem with Shadowrun is it is a very technical rules and numbers-based system, but is randomly written in a conversational tone that doesn't mesh well with the statistics.
-
almost all rule books are peppered with color and fluff stories. It helps to draw the reader into the world. True, SR takes it a couple steps farther with it's "forum thread" styled books, and sometimes the editing could definitely be better, But I have seen plenty worse books.
As for side bars, yea they sure would be helpful for a wide range of topics, but then the question becomes:
what do you include?
What topics require their own sidebar?
what should be covered in that sidebar?
Hindsight is always 20/20, and we can grumble all we want. But you can bet these questions where asked and thought about all during the book. To me it looked like they assumed (maybe incorrectly) that most of their players could figure out the small stuff, if given an overview of how the large stuff works.
Who knows, maybe cyberarms will be revisited in the new cybertech book and they will answer these questions.
Until then, Good judgement and real life experience will have help form your rulings on matters they didn't micro-rule.... And Spirits help you if you lack both.
-
I don't appreciate that you're basically calling me stupid for not being able to decipher their rules as intended when there is no official word beyond
The attributes of partial limbs
(including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but
their attributes only apply for tests directly involving
those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something
with an enhanced cyberhand).
for what a partial limb or hand controls. It is entirely up to GM rule and could be wildly different from table to table, and you don't see that as a serious oversight? Come on.
Full limbs as written mostly make sense, but partial and hands/feet absolutely do not and require house ruling no matter which side of the debate you fall on. That's bad writing/design.
-
All the rules work together. They aren't individual rules meant to be thrown in separate boxes and used on at a time.
For limbs, you use that stat when you make use of only the limb, you average if it uses more unless it's "careful coordination," in which case you use the weakest rating.
Partial Limbs add that they only apply for tests they are directly involved in.
That doesn't make the other rules disappear. If you're shooting with a cyber hand, it involves your arm and your partial limb. It's careful coordination. It directly involves your hand. You use the weakest.
If you're hula hooping, your cyberfoot doesn't matter. It isn't involved. Even though your legs are. So you don't get to average it into your agility.
The limb rules make perfect sense if you use all of them together and think each case through.
-
In your reasoning, if I had a cyber hand with 3 agility and a natural agility of 7, would you roll 5 die as the average? That doesn't make much sense either.
If using careful coordination between a cyber hand or lower arm and the rest of the meat arm means you end up using the lower rated piece, why would you ever bother increasing a hand/lower arms stats above your normal stats? That makes them worthless compared to a full arm replacement.
-
In the case of something your character does that only uses the hand. For everyone else, the necessity is to raise the stats up to their other stats so they don't have to take the lower rating.
-
That brings us right back to my original point: what do you use only the hand for??!?!?
You've just submitted your own house rules to fix the issue.
-
I also find it a bit ridiculous that you think your reply being focused on amounts to a "slap fight", or that this is the kind of thing that deserves to be taken private.
Because clearly I'm using the words "slap fight" because you dared disagree with me, and not because you decided to use the words "knee jerk" and "no productive response" to describe a post that's simply to-the-point.
-
That brings us right back to my original point: what do you use only the hand for??!?!?
Not sure what he is using his for, but I know what Sally down at the Seamstress Union uses her's for and it's worth every nuyen. ;)
-
I'm not sure how using the rules from the book is "house rules."
-
For me, the biggest challenge with the rules for limbs is what constitutes careful coordination and not, and what actions can be performed with just a hand or foot, a partial limb, a single full limb, and a combination of all of the above.
There is a lot left up to the GM in terms of interpretation in this regard, and by Dragon, I'll virtually slap each and everyone of you who say "but common sense!" with a copy of the Brony edition of the rulebook, because you know as well as I do that common sense ain't all that common...
In terms of Missions, I would never create a character with cyberlimbs for convention play because I'd have to bring up potential actions my character might take before every game with a different GM to get a sense for what their interpretation of the above was, or just accept what their choices were in game, whether to my character's detriment or not, in the name of "not arguing rules during a game" (i.e. fun). Limbs are cool in a home game where you can agree with a specific GM of how the rules will be handled, but for random pick-up games there's just too many unanswered questions for my tastes.
-
Because clearly I'm using the words "slap fight" because you dared disagree with me, and not because you decided to use the words "knee jerk" and "no productive response" to describe a post that's simply to-the-point.
To-the-point would involve a minimum of detail - you used none, so I stand by my words. Your explanation apparently showed you to be disliking an idea you had formulated rather than the one I was trying to convey, so you either need to clarify or reposition yourself if you expect me to take you seriously.
-
I don't appreciate that you're basically calling me stupid for not being able to decipher their rules as intended when there is no official word beyond
Look, I don't know you, you are some little digital pips on a screen to me. You could be a rocket scientist for all I know, or an 11 year old kid.
But please, think about what you are saying :D
IF they listed every possible action that could be done with a partial limb, it would be pages long.
Every book written is written to a certain education level. Doctor Seuss is written at the preschool level. The CEC is written in second year legalese. Every manual you read assumes you have certain basic skills or knowledge. (the CEC is useless to you, unless you are an electrician, or an engineer).
The same is true to Role Playing Games. No matter how you write the rules, there will always be something that the PCs do that is just not covered, and this is partially why you have a GM, to make the calls on these actions and to determine what happens. If the every single rule included every possible situation that that rule to be applied to, we would have a core rule book that was sold in volumes! I for one did not become a Lawyer cause I hate sitting in an office.... and I do not feel I need 32 volumes of the rulebook to cover ever single situation for every single rule. I have faith in my players and GM that common sense and rationale will carry the day.
(which could explain why I am disappointed so often)
If you just can not accept relying on common sense and good judgement, maybe PnP RPGs are too free form for you, and you should stick to the rigid systems imposed on you by a computer game? After all, we all just want you to enjoy your downtime as best as you can, and PnP isn't for everyone (especially in this day and age of electronic entertainment.)
-
It's not asking much to have a half-page table to describe what limbs, partial limbs, and hands/feet would control. They could give general guidelines. As it stands we quite literally only have "(such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand)" as our grand example. That's IT. Unless your entire goal is to be super grip man, every other action in the game which relies nearly 100% on die rolls is up to your GMs discretion.
As someone else said, think about Missions games: if you show up with a guy with a couple partial limbs there's no telling how that GM will decide to rule for or against you, so it's probably a better idea to not even use them. I have as much common sense as the next guy, but if I'm paying real world money for the rules to a fantasy elf game those rules had better make sense, otherwise it wasn't a good use of my money as a consumer. I've got no problem with houseruling but you shouldn't have to do it for something so stylistically integral to the setting as cyberware.
Maybe these rules will be addressed in the augmentations book, but probably not based on Catalyst's track record of correcting issues with their system.
-
I've never seen an issue with it at any table, home or con. Occasionally someone mimes an action to figure out what part/s of the body they use, but that's pretty much it. It's a fairly simple process.
-
It's not asking much to have a half-page table to describe what limbs, partial limbs, and hands/feet would control. They could give general guidelines. As it stands we quite literally only have "(such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand)" as our grand example. That's IT. Unless your entire goal is to be super grip man, every other action in the game which relies nearly 100% on die rolls is up to your GMs discretion.
As someone else said, think about Missions games: if you show up with a guy with a couple partial limbs there's no telling how that GM will decide to rule for or against you, so it's probably a better idea to not even use them. I have as much common sense as the next guy, but if I'm paying real world money for the rules to a fantasy elf game those rules had better make sense, otherwise it wasn't a good use of my money as a consumer. I've got no problem with houseruling but you shouldn't have to do it for something so stylistically integral to the setting as cyberware.
Maybe these rules will be addressed in the augmentations book, but probably not based on Catalyst's track record of correcting issues with their system.
Could they have? Possibly.
They COULD have done a lot of things differently, same with any other book by any other publisher out there.
But really, you can not determine if an action require MORE then just your hand or foot? REALLY?!?!
but to make you happy here is a small list for hands:
Pick your nose
Pick someone else's nose
pick up a small item
open a door
open a window
operate a screwdriver
hold a small object
open a small container
small scale repair work
flip someone a cyber bird
pick your ear
pick someone else's ear
smoke a cigarette
hold a container to drink
sexual foreplay actions/self release
place a small item
move or relocate a small item
give someone the "hand" to talk to
there we go, about a half page and it took me 3 minutes!
-
Aiming fingertip darts.
Flicking your fingertip compartment monofilament whip. (who uses a whole arm motion here?)
-
Thanks for the house rules Reaver.
I can logically determine what these limbs would do. However, Shadowrun is not a logical game and just because I think something should be one way doesn't mean a GM agrees with me. I don't know why you are so resistant to the creators of this game supplying rules for the crunchy stuff that makes PCs when they have dozens of tables in the main book that do exactly that.
-
We aren't resistant to it, we're just pointing out that the book states what is needed. The game does occasionally require thought.
-
<znip>
but to make you happy here is a small list for hands:
*clears throat*
Devil's Advocate mode engaged.
Pick your nose
Yep, I agree with this one. Not very useful in terms of actual game play, unless your character has the Compulsive Behaviour negative quality and his chosen mania is rhinotillextomania. And even then it's a bit of a stretch...
Pick someone else's nose
Ah, remember the old adage: "You can pick your friends; you can pick your nose; but you can't pick your friends' noses." Again, not very useful in terms of game play...
pick up a small item
Picking up an item, whether it is small or large, involves FAR more than "just a hand". Forarm, upper arm, shoulder, most of the body if one has to bend down or otherwise move around to get to the item.
open a door
Completely disagree. If you had said "Twist a door knob", or "Manipulate a door handle", then yes, but opening a door involves the whole arm and perhaps more. If you actually needed to roll for opening a door, I would not give you the benefit of a STR9 cyberhand except for where holding on to the door handle was involved. I would average your hand with the rest of your limbs, however, as per the rules. I don't believe opening a door, no matter how heavy it might be, constitutes a coordinated effort to the degree that you'd have to use your lowest stat...
open a window
See above; depending on the window (sliding mechanism up/down, or swivel in/out, years of paint having glued it shut, etc), this could involve most of your upper body, and perhaps lower body as well if you're forced to, well, force it open.
operate a screwdriver
Again, incorrect. A screwdriver very often requires a degree of lateral force to operate optimally; try screwing in a 2" wood screw into a 2x4 without leveraging ANY weight on the screwdriver. More than likely, the bit'll just slide around in the grooves. Once you lean your weight onto it using your whole arm and upper body, however...
hold a small object
I'll give you this, but only just. It would depend on HOW you're holding it. Even a $100 bill becomes impossible to hold after a very short time if your arm is stretched out to your side.
open a small container
Nope. Most containers would require TWO hands.
small scale repair work
See above; while your dexterity with one hand might be improved, soldering (for example) still requires two hands (one to hold the iron, the other to hold the solder).
flip someone a cyber bird
Agreed, but when would you ever make a player roll for flipping someone the bird? He critically glitches, and he doesn't even manage to lift his middle finger? (FINGER TOO HEAVY!)
pick your ear
See pick your nose...
pick someone else's ear
Again, see pick pick your nose (and someone else's nose).
smoke a cigarette
Once again involves the whole arm at the very least. And really, this requires a test in your games? Remind me never to play with you if it does...
hold a container to drink
See holding a small item, above. Also requires the whole arm.
sexual foreplay actions/self release
Heh, if you claim that you can do this with just your hand you need to make some instructional videos. Why do you think a medical condition called "Tennis Elbow" exists. Let me give you a hint; it's not because nearly every single person in the world plays tennis (natch!).
place a small item
Depending on placement, could involve the whole body. I'll give you this as a partial, because I might make someone roll to gingerly place an explosive device, for instance, and I would average the stats of their cyberhand with their natural agility.
move or relocate a small item
See above, place a small item.
give someone the "hand" to talk to
And finally, once again, really? Your games must devolve into some seriously HORRIBLE amounts of dice rolling...
Disengaging Devil's Advocate mode.
All right, so what you gave us was a list of actions that most GMs, in my not so humble opinion, would never in a million years make a player roll to perform.
How about you come up with a list of just 10 actions that can be unequivocally performed with just a single hand, that you'd actually make someone roll for. I tried, but failed miserably.
Partial limbs also bring up another mathematical annoyance; how do you average limbs? If you have a single cyberhand, it's fairly straight forward. But if you have two or more partials, do you then start breaking each limb down into individual components?
It's unclear whether or not you should always factor in head and torso for the purposes of averaging, so for full limbs the GM might make you average 4, 5, or 6 limbs. If you were to break that up into sub-components (hand/foot, forearm/lower leg, upper arm/upper leg), the math starts to become problematic, as you're now looking at a potential 12, 13, or 14 entities.
This is important as the effectiveness of a cyberlimb isn't majorly affected the more units your average across. Example; AGI 3 and STR 3 character with an AGI 7 and STR 7 (keeping within maximum augmented limit for purposes of this discussion) full left cyberarm.
For the purpose of firing a machine gun from the hip (an arguably complex action but not complex enough to my mind to require "careful coordination", hence resulting in averaging stats of all limbs), a character could claim to have either:
(7+3+3+3) / 4 = 4
(7+3+3+3+3) / 5 = 3.8 (rounded up to 4)
(7+3+3+3+3+3) / 6 = 3.66...7 (again rounded up to 4)
Cool, fairly straight forward, no real difference there.
Same thing if the character only had a AGI 7 and STR 7 cyberhand:
((7+3+3+)3+3+3) / 6 = 3.66...7 (again rounded up to 4)
((7+3+3+)3+3+3+3) / 7 = 3.57 (again rounded up to 4)
((7+3+3+)3+3+3+3+3) / 8 = 3.5 (again rounded up to 4)
Add in a second cyberhand with the same stats, and you'll see the same behaviour:
((7+3+3+)+(7+3+3)+3+3) / 8 = 4
((7+3+3+)+(7+3+3)+3+3+3) / 9 = 3.88...9 (again rounded up to 4)
((7+3+3+)+(7+3+3)+3+3+3+3) / 10 = 3.8 (again rounded up to 4)
So, what has all this complexity resulted in? Mechanically, nothing. Can we all agree that this minutia adds needless complexity to an already complex game?
Immersion breaking as it is for some, averaging across more than 4 is very rarely going to get you a different result than just keeping it simple, unless you go to extremes.
In any case, my previous point still stands; we can all come up with what we as individuals think of as logical or common sense solutions to the question of "What constitutes careful coordination?", and "What actions can be performed with [insert limb here]?", but that doesn't diminish the fact that there is a lot of ambiguity around these rules. As my deconstruction of Reaver's argument show, even though it was overly dramatically done, some really petty arguments can be made, and at SRM games I wouldn't take cyberlimbs for this very reason. Ask yourself; is a rule well designed when players (even if it is just a few, I have no stats to back up my statement here) are reluctant to take items affected by said rule because the rules are vague?
-
Here, your problem seems to be you overcomplicating things.
What is the example for using a limb's stats in the book? Leading an attack with a cyberarm. That would actually involve the legs, hips, shoulders, torso, etc. The game simplifies it for us.
-
WellsIDidIt
Correct, the game oversimplifies in one instance; but for all other actions it is still very much up to the GM to decide what goes.
And so we're back to the (very) circular argument of what goes. If you'll read my full post, you'll note that I'm not actually arguing this level of complexity be introduced to the game, I'm arguing that I wouldn't take cyberlimbs because of the uncertainty I as a player would be facing, mostly at SRM games where I have no idea what my GM will be thinking.
-
So, your logic is basically that because you can ignore the example and argue that things take more, it's the game's fault? Sure, GM's can ignore the example. That's called a problem with the GM, not the game. If you're so worried that a GM is going to ignore what the book says, it's best not to play in random mission games to begin with.
-
WellsIDidIt
I never said any such thing; where did you get the impression that I would ignore the examples? If anything, I was building on the examples for effect, but you'll note that I am also advocating NOT further complicating the rules.
Once again, however, my issue is that to my mind too much is left up to the GM in this case, and while this is not a problem in games where house rules exists it is a problem in SRM games where the only guidelines GMs are given are the three situations (limb only, average of limbs, and lowest attribute if "careful coordination" is required). As is clear from this and other similar threads, "common sense ain't all that common" when defining what action constitutes which situation. As a result, I for one would choose not to take cyberlimbs for a character designed for Missions play at conventions; if a player (myself in this case) think there is so much ambiguity in the rules the the player chooses to just avoid those rules all together, does that make the rules well designed?
-
The issue isn't with full limbs. If the book's example of leading an attack with a cyberarm is all we get, then we can assume full arms would do anything that a normal meat arm could do without problem (except for careful coordination). I have zero issues with that, and full arms work as intended. Simple.
The problem comes when we get to partial limbs and hands, and I still haven't seen anything other than house rules and "god you guys just use logic!" as explanations for how they work. As it stands I don't see any practical reason to ever take cyber hands/feet aside from armor stacking abuse, and partial limbs aren't much better. Another point Martin brought up is there is confusion about how many limbs factor into averaging calculations. It would take exactly one sentence in the book to clarify this but we don't have that.
I would love to use logic in all situations in SR, and in my games I certainly would, but this is a RULES BASED system with strict crunch and the rules as written for partial limbs and hands/feet are not developed enough to clearly state what they can and can not control, how they might figure into averaging, and on and on like Martin has said. As much as I love arguing on the internet, I'm here to discuss the RULES of the game, not some dude's house rules and then get called an idiot for it.
This isn't just a Catalyst problem, limbs have had issues going back to at least 3rd ed (I don't remember confusing in 2nd but there may have been). It is Catalyst's job to clarify rules inconsistencies but they either don't care or don't want to, based on their bullshit eratta releases.
-
@Martin
I would agree with your rebuttals on all points BUT the screwdriver :P I could not possibly count the number of screws I have put in.... but it's in the tens to maybe even hundreds on millions (I kid you not! last job I worked we ordered 3 MILLION, 1-18 3/8 tap screws alone for a crew of 80.) putting in a screw is very much just a wrist/finger/forearm thing once you have the technique down pat and almost no force of the arm, reguardless of it is in metal, tin, aluminum, or wood.
But Now you also hit on the crux of the matter, and WHY a list is very much impractical. Any test that you would roll for is done in a situation where there is a consequence to failure. So, tests that very much seem simple or foolish COULD actually matter, and a simple list of "you can do, this but not this" negates the circumstances of situation.
Situation one:
the Runners have invaded the evil mastermind's hide out and defeated the Big Bad Boss.... only to find that he had a dead man's trigger! A HUGE bomb is on a 30 second countdown and the access panel to the bomb is wedged up against the wall! If they move the bomb, it will go off, so the only way to disarm it is for a character to get himself wedged into a small tight corner and worked only with his hands and fingers to remove the casing and cut the correct wires..... (Forearm down agility and strength test)
Situation Two:
The runners are ambushed! during the fight, Johnny is knocked flat on the ground and a big, mean ork rushes over to stand on this gun arm. Johnny looks around, he could try to engage the Ork standing on his arm in melee combat, but looking around He sees Sally is being threatened by two other Orks and they are in line with his prone arm! If he could only raise the gun off the floor and target one of the orks threatening Sally... (Forearm/hand Agility test)
*****
Like I said, both are situational, but both could happen in the wacky world of imaginary fun! And because just about anything can (and usually does) happen, having a short list of actions could never cover any or even some of the situations.
This folks, is why you have a GM! People seem to think that the GM is there to be confrontational to the players. (And in a way he is), but he is also there to act as a mediator to the events, the story, and the situations that players get into and out of. Everything that has happened before and up to the point that a cyberarm (partial) has any bearing has already been in the realm of GM fait. So I am amazed at the butt hurt resistance to using a little imagination and common sense in conjunction with a little interaction with someone to come up with a fair judgement on just when a cyber foot or hand would be useful or not.
Hell, retrieving a wedding band from a pot of boiling water is useful for a cyber hand!
Not every action that a player character can ever take can be covered by all the rules. Accept it. I have let to see the rules that cover having someone swing from a chain attached to a cargo crane while firing an auto grenade launcher, but I have to deal with that. I have yet to see the rules for engaging in hand to hand combat while hanging upside down from a scaffold, but I've dealt with that too.
As I said before, if you can't handle the infinite possibilities that players will come up with, with the baseline rules given in ANY role playing PnP game, then mayhap it is not the entertainment for you? Personally I like the fact that I can do just about anything, approach any problem by any means (and not just the limited few options a programmer gave me). But I also realize that my solutions to problems are probably not things that the developers or writers would think of, so I have to rely on my GM to set the limits and tests to do my wild antics (Just as I do with my players).
that's part of what makes Roleplaying games so fun! Does it mean some systems will differ? you bet! that is the beauty of this Game! The way I run my table makes my game totally unique and different from the way Michael runs his games, which makes his games Fun, fresh and exciting! And he differs from the way Xenon runs his games! Sure we are all following the same rules, but our individual life experiences, attitudes and thoughts of the game ensures that each game is both the "same" enough yet different as to make playing in each of our tables a rewarding experience. If the rules are to restrictive, then imagination suffers.
-
Reaver
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with pretty much everything you said, as long as the intention is homegrown campaigns. However, Missions is a different beast all together; even Bull has come out and said that Missions are designed to provide a consistent experience for all players. How can a GM do that when he has to interpret the rules individually, with very little guidance in some cases such as with partial and full cyberlimbs?
And I wouldn't want an exhaustive, overly detailed lists of situations. What I would want is something that describes intent, that elaborates on what the developers were thinking when they designed a rule. The list you provided was a little odd in terms of game play (four of them, possibly five, involved scratching an orifice or two ;) ), but something like a three or four examples for each situation (using just limb, combination of all limbs, careful coordination) would go a LONG way to impart meaning to the developer's thought process. I don't think that's asking too much.
Again, don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly happy playing a street sam with four cyberlimbs (arms and legs) and in our home game it works beautifully because my GM and I have worked through some of these questions. I still wouldn't take cyberlimbs to a convention, because it means unpredictability; and while unpredictability is part of why we play the game ("Oh, a milk run? Perfect..."), I don't want unpredictability where the rules for how well my character can potentially perform an action (environmental and wound modifiers aside) are concerned.
I think I've said what I wanted to say. Cheers for keeping it civil, folks.
-
Reaver
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with pretty much everything you said, as long as the intention is homegrown campaigns. However, Missions is a different beast all together; even Bull has come out and said that Missions are designed to provide a consistent experience for all players. How can a GM do that when he has to interpret the rules individually, with very little guidance in some cases such as with partial and full cyberlimbs?
And I wouldn't want an exhaustive, overly detailed lists of situations. What I would want is something that describes intent, that elaborates on what the developers were thinking when they designed a rule. The list you provided was a little odd in terms of game play (four of them, possibly five, involved scratching an orifice or two ;) ), but something like a three or four examples for each situation (using just limb, combination of all limbs, careful coordination) would go a LONG way to impart meaning to the developer's thought process. I don't think that's asking too much.
Again, don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly happy playing a street sam with four cyberlimbs (arms and legs) and in our home game it works beautifully because my GM and I have worked through some of these questions. I still wouldn't take cyberlimbs to a convention, because it means unpredictability; and while unpredictability is part of why we play the game ("Oh, a milk run? Perfect..."), I don't want unpredictability where the rules for how well my character can potentially perform an action (environmental and wound modifiers aside) are concerned.
I think I've said what I wanted to say. Cheers for keeping it civil, folks.
Which is part of the reason I personally don't go to mission runs (although I have heard they are very fun!)
Yes, a "Complete" set of rules would be nice, but as I stated can be impractical. This is why we have judges and refs and GMs, to arbitrate conflicts.
And that is part of the Catalyist Rep's job as well, to be knowledgeable of the rules, and to apply or enforce them in a consistant way. Not to mention covering the situations that come up that are not expressly covered by the rules. Yes, you have good GMs or bad GMs, Yes, they may make a call you don't agree with or is even wrong, but that is the nature of any team endeavor.
You have to trust that the GM has the best intentions for the game, even if it's not the best intentions for your character.
-
I think most of the conflict here is between presumptions about the rules - how thorough they should be or need to be. Personally, I think this category (cyberhands/feet) is something that's limited enough that you should be able to figure out what only a hand does. Screwing a screwdriver is one of them. Holding a door handle or crushing a soda can is another. If you're getting a cyberhand, it's either because you've got a definite character idea with that as a feature or you're wanting the capacity, not because you're wanting a Cyberarm of Awesome. The book doesn't explicitly give a list of things because it's assumed that you are looking at real-world physiology (you've got an arm, you can do it) and taking the game's simplification guidelines for what they are. I think you're not going to be using a hand/foot for much, and the rules for a full cyberlimb are relatively clear.
I think the only one that's not fairly clear is a partial cyberlimb. Can you use a pistol with just a lower arm? Most likely. I know there's minor use of tendons and muscles in the shoulder, but you're probably not doing as much with them. An SMG? Possibly. A carbine or sport rifle? Now you're looking at two cyberarms (most likely full, though a generous GM might decide 2 partials will cover it).
A katar/punch dagger? Lower arm might be enough. A sword? I'd think that requires enough of the shoulder that you're going to be averaging states or looking for a full cyberarm. A katana or weapon with reach greater than 1? Almost certainly a full cyberarm or you're averaging stats.
That's the kind of process the game's designers expected, and as you can see it can easily expand enough that it's easier to leave it up to "common sense" (which, yes, isn't necessarily common) rather than try to define every little thing. Might another sentence to clarify the boundary of use/need between partial and full cyberarm? Possibly.
-
The problem with "logic" and "common sense" as rules is not that people don't use them, its that different reasonable intelligent people will reach different conclusions from the same starting information. The less starting information you have, the harder it is to get consistent conclusions.
For example, I have heard arguments from different people in this thread that claim alternately that firing a pistol uses just the forearm and hand, and that it requires the whole arm to the shoulder. Which is it? The rules don't say.
People don't agree on whether opening a door or working a screwdriver uses the whole arm or just the forearm or just teh hand. Even if it is just the hand and wrist, is the wrist included in the cyberhand? Or is it still natural and therefore included in averaging?
The whole point of rules is to provide a framework and consistent experience. Otherwise the whole book would just be a setting description and the words "Use common sense" for everything else.
Even a dozen examples of things that occur frequently and what they use would be a good starting point. It would cover 90% of cases, and give a clearer breakdown for the other 10% so GM decisions could be more predictable. I know when I GM I prefer to have clear examples to start from at least. They don't have to be realistic, just consistent.
For example:
Making a melee attack: Full arm(s)
Firing a heavy or machine pistol: Full arm
Firing a light or holdout pistol: Forearm and hand
Firing an SMG or heavier weapon: Both full arms
Picking a lock: Hand*
Using a hand tool: Forearm and hand*
Running: Both full legs
Standing long jump or vertical jump: Both full legs
Running long jump: One full leg
Dead lift: Both upper legs and full arms*
Tap dancing: Lower leg and foot*
Free climbing or swimming: All four full limbs
* Use lowest stat
This is just an example (I like examples) that I threw together. If you disagree with anything on that chart, you are making my point for me. Without a basic framework you cannot predict what a GM will rule, and therefore cannot make an informed decision about your character. The character's life and destiny should be unpredictable; The rules should not be.
-
For example:
Making a melee attack: Full arm(s)
Firing a light or holdout pistol: Forearm and hand
I'd differ (as I mentioned earlier) on these with reference to any firearm fitted into a cyber hand, and monofilament whips. The former comes with a built-in smartgun system, so you certainly aren't required to do more than necessary to point it in the right direction, while the latter is an almost entirely weightless length of cheese cutter you can flick out of your finger with a weighted tip.
-
Because clearly I'm using the words "slap fight" because you dared disagree with me, and not because you decided to use the words "knee jerk" and "no productive response" to describe a post that's simply to-the-point.
To-the-point would involve a minimum of detail - you used none, so I stand by my words. Your explanation apparently showed you to be disliking an idea you had formulated rather than the one I was trying to convey, so you either need to clarify or reposition yourself if you expect me to take you seriously.
I'll be sure to find that slightly important once you actually clarify your idea, considering your "clearing things up" post didn't actually explain it properly. Besides, even if your suggestion still involves allowing Enhancement on top of regular stats, I've argued several times in several topics that restricting cyberlimbs to the +3 from Enhancements only is still a bad idea.
-
<excellent post znipped for brevity>
This is just an example (I like examples) that I threw together. If you disagree with anything on that chart, you are making my point for me. Without a basic framework you cannot predict what a GM will rule, and therefore cannot make an informed decision about your character. The character's life and destiny should be unpredictable; The rules should not be.
I wasn't going to post again on this subject, but thank you for so eloquently summarizing my thoughts precisely, Anarkitty. Cheers!
-
I'll be sure to find that slightly important once you actually clarify your idea, considering your "clearing things up" post didn't actually explain it properly. Besides, even if your suggestion still involves allowing Enhancement on top of regular stats, I've argued several times in several topics that restricting cyberlimbs to the +3 from Enhancements only is still a bad idea.
No it isn't. It wasn't the first hundred times you said it and it isn't now. It is a good price to pay for the additional functionality available for those limbs. If someone just tries loading the capacity with armor instead of actually taking advantage of that functionality and suffers as a result, that's on them.
-
stuff
You gave me a solid block of text, and you can say whether it was an angry rant or not. Neither are particularly conducive to being taken seriously, so I focused on the bold text when I skimmed over it - which you'll find I'm actively doing in regards to your posts now. (while imagining a Little Britain-esque "I don't like it" coming from you at relevant points)
I think we're done, Ze. This isn't going anywhere better than where you pitched from, so lets call it.
-
I mean, if you really want, you can do it pre-SR4 style, where the only stat cyberlimbs had or changed was strength, and I'm not sure there were partial cyberlimbs.
-
I know in Man and Machine (SR 3), cyberlimbs had Strength and Quickness ratings and armor was available for cyberlimbs as well. Partial limbs were also available in Man and Machine.
That said, they used a lot of different rules than current. Off the top of my head, the limits were along these lines:
Strength = Nat. Body +4 or Nat. Body x 2
Quickness = Nat. Quickness +4 or Nat. Quickness x 2
Armor = No limit, but while it stacked with armor it also was calculated into the encumbrance penalty.
It also costed more if you wanted to enhance strength and quickness in a limb (the mods worked against each other).
-
In SR3 core, cyberlimbs were strength only and started at one or more levels above the average for your race, so human cyberarms started at Strength 4, not Strength 3. I didn't see anything for adding any other stat, though you could put other 'ware in them like Smartlink or RADIO PLAYER (which was separate from CELL PHONE, which was separate from CAMERA, which could hold an amazing 10 pictures!)
( Hah hah, oh Shadowrun! )
Two arms also gave +1 Body, two legs gave +1, and you did more damage with unarmed attacks with them. Increasing strength by up to 3 was fine, increasing the cyberarm strength past 3 outright cost you extra essence. And, again, none of this effected your quickness in any way.
-
You know, given the discussion here, I have something I'd like to submit:
In the environment where limits exist, I do not at this time accept the idea that cyberlimbs are imbalanced. In part, this is because taking Strength 1 and Agility 1 and using limbs to make up for it then comes at a cost - at Body 3 and Reaction 4, your Physical Limit is still only 3; this is problematic for a variety of skills that are important for any shadowrunner - stealth is one example.
-
Without limits I don't even see an issue, but with limits, well as you say limits limit the usefulness.
-
If a character has a cyber arm does it make sense that they can use reflex recorder to add +1 to shoot a pistol with that cyber arm ?
-
There's no rule against it, and logically it would work - the text for Reflex Recorder indicates that it's a neural implant.
-
yeah, you are getting a positive dice pool modifier to your pistol skill. you get this modifier even if you fire around corners from cover using your left hand, if you use a cyberarm to fire the shot or even if you use a built in cyberpistol in your torso...
...if you fire with your left hand you take a negative modifier unless you are ambidextrous (or left handed). If you fire with your cyberarm you use your cyberarm agility rather than your physical agility (which might or might not be higher or lower than your physical agility)
-
If a character has a cyber arm does it make sense that they can use reflex recorder to add +1 to shoot a pistol with that cyber arm ?
It's a skill-thing, not an attribute-thing, so yeah.
-
What about Gunnery with a cyberarm? Gunnery is based on Agility. But if you were jumped into a drone you would not get the benefit of your cyberarm.
-
Manual gunnery uses your cyberarm's Agility. Remote gunnery uses your Logic attribute, not your Agility.
-
Manual gunnery uses your cyberarm's Agility. Remote gunnery uses your Logic attribute, not your Agility.
^This.
It is clear that you use Gunnery (SR5 errata p. 2) and Agility for Manual Operation of Vehicle mounted weapons.
It is clear that you use Gunnery and Logic (SR5 p. 183) for Remote Operation of Vehicle mounted weapons.
But, depending on your reading, you use Gunnery and Agility for Remote Operation of Drone mounted weapons (SR5 p. 238)
SR5 do seem to make a distinction between Vehicle mounted weapons and Drone mounted weapons.
There is even a paragraph named Vehicle and Drone Mounted Weapons on p. 176