Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: tasti man LH on <03-01-14/0650:44>
-
So these two privatized cop organizations are typically going to be the main opposition that runners will typically face, obviously in NorthAm and of course Seattle.
That said...are there really any noticeable differences between the two?
On the surface they look like the same cops, just with a different badge. But they've got to have different methods on how they do things, and I'm pretty sure runners would have their preferences on who they would rather deal with over the other. Because if not, otherwise there's no point on having two different companies if they're more or less the same.
While as of this post, I haven't finished reading it but I really dug the old Lone Star sourcebook and how it broke down how each department of Lone Star work, their different procedures, and of course lots and lots of stat blocks for each kind of member. A bit useless to me since I've been running a 4th edition campaign, and currently have no intention of running any older editions. One particular sourcebook that's on my dream list is for something similar to the Lone Star book but extensively covers Knight Errant instead.
So...what are the major similarities and differences between the two? And if you've run any game that involved both the Star and KE, how did you showcase the differences between the two?
And if there's any existing material that outlines the differences, any help would be great. :)
-
Well, for one, KE doesn't get along with DocWagon, something about "interference" I think.
-
I believe one prefers creme and the other jam in their donuts.
-
KE is still a subsidiary of Ares, a full AAA megacorp, with all that goes with that while LS is still ranked AA if I recall.
May seem minor, but long term effects may tell..
KE should have better access to gear, maybe even some prototypes for field testing.
Likewise killing KE personnel means killing Ares personnel and while thumbing our noses at the corps is standard, just keep in mind if you make enough of a splash, it could come back to haunt you when a Johnson turns out to be working for Ares and they set you up for an ambush.
-
As far as I can gather from Season 4, Knight Errant is a bit higher skilled, a bit more professional, a bit less scummy and a decent bit less racist. On general I'd put them as 1 PR higher.
-
As far as I can gather from Season 4, Knight Errant is a bit higher skilled, a bit more professional, a bit less scummy and a decent bit less racist. On general I'd put them as 1 PR higher.
pretty much this.
Lone Star was the "hillbilly" police force. If you didn't match the officer's ideal for metahuman (IE: troll or ork), chances are they would beat the crap out of you, instead of take a statement.
Knight Errant is more professional, and clean cut then LS. Add to the fact they are backed by a AAA, and you have a much bigger resource pool for the toys, like drones, spirits, and, you know, actual police work.
-
Lone Star Security Services was created by a texan businessman by the merger of a handful of physical and network security companies. Its growth was fed by privatization of North American municipal polices. If Seattle Police Department can serve as an example, they hired a lot of cops who were layed off by the department they were replacing.
The Lone Star sourcebook also says the UCAS governement dismantled the DEA and sold its databases and some hardware to LSSS, who also recruited some personnels. However, later books mentionned the DEA as still up and running.
Knight Errant Security Services, on the other hand, was created from scratch by Damien Knight when he become CEO of the Ares Macrotechnology group and decided to strengthen the megacorporation in the defense and security fields. The typical profile for KE exec is ex-military from either the UCAS, CAS or NAN.
So if I was to make these corporations feel different, LSSS would be "cops an feds with yield management" while KE would be more "national guard was paid to come to your neighbourhood."
-
Lone Star also got a lot of Canadian Police Departments, including the Mounties apparently.
But, yes, they're typically the Hillbilly Racist Cops that are always hated on, while Knight Errant is more an all-accepting jackbooted thug that is less liked because they're much more efficient and equipped.
-
Lone Star also got a lot of Canadian Police Departments, including the Mounties apparently.
French-speaking mounties only. Gendarmerie du Québec is a subsidiary of Lone Star Security Services. It likely merged the Sûreté du Québec with what Quebec got of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police/Gendarmerie Royale du Canada "C division" when it seceded.
The rest of the Mounties were merged with the US Marshals when the remaining Canadian states joined the UCAS.
-
So if I was to make these corporations feel different, LSSS would be "cops an feds with yield management" while KE would be more "national guard was paid to come to your neighbourhood."
;D
It's hard to add to that, much less follow it, but here's my ¥0.02...
LSSS will often roll in with a mobile command post, and a roadmaster or two of backup. Someone(s) with field experience will coordinate operations and logistics. Leads will be analyzed as they are obtained and teams will be rerouted accordingly eventually. They will stagger shift changes to prevent knowledge going off-duty, which was/is an identified risk. Dispatches are often prioritized by sideline profit. Rush orders get billed extra, and if someone needs immediate assistance, they should have called Crashcart instead. Or paid more.
KE establishes (i.e. clears) a perimiter, around a defensible but acessible position, and set up a local HQ, complete with drone overwatch, HMGs at the entrances, their own grid, and magical screening of secure areas... depending on how long they expect to stay. Many, many truckloads of goons then arrive, and anyone not busy shuffling bits of AR goes out kicking in doors with Ares' most recent products. Maybe some that aren't on the market yet, depending on what (or who) they're looking for.
LSSS teams are potentially more susceptible to bribes, if you can offer them enough to make it worth their while to come back in 15 minutes... unless there's an Internal Affairs Officer present, which they may know, but runners probably won't, until the credsticks are pocketed.
KE troops are probably more likely to take a bribe, individually, but you will probably be dealing with three times as many of them on any given occasion, so it's both riskier and more expensive. On the plus side, they are also generally less likely to taze you for looking meta, but will be more prepared for a confrontation.
Neither one is particularly concerned with collateral damage, or missing non-evidentiary items. Their contract covers that.
-
Nath and BetaCAV have good descriptions, I think, though I'd like to point out something else.
Knight Errant started out as corporate security, generally recruited from ex-armed forces: "This is Ares property, please depart the premesis." They'll be polite to the customer until it is time for them to no longer be polite; then they'll shoot to kill. These are ex-Army and ex-Marines given courtesy training and well-defined parameters of how far they're supposed to allow 'the customer' to go, after which point they'll have no problem putting the now-perp down hard. They have a book they're trained to, and they'll stick to it very firmly, because they never know if they're going to get transfered from an Ares corporate facility to the back end of Podunk, IA. Everyone in a city with whom KE has a contract is a customer, until they cross the line; then they're a target. Taking prisoners is encouraged, but you can't guarantee a prisoner in a firefight. Your archetypical KE officer is young, fit, square-jawed, and ready to fire an SMG or assault rifle with speed and accuracy; depending on patrol area, they at least have one of these in the cabin of their patrol vehicle, if not brought with them in a combat-carry position. He spends his on-shift downtime at the "precinct house" in the gym with the rest of the team lifting weights.
Now, while Lone Star has a book that they're trained to as well, a large number of the people who were originally recruited into the company were (as has been pointed out) recently-discharged cops - which means the corporate culture is that of 'police officer'. Cops are trained to a much looser idea of offenses, as it were - instead of a binary 'friend/enemy' solution, it's more of a digital 'where you fall on the citizen/perp scale'. They aren't cops, but they tend to think like cops. They're almost always going to be providing security for a community, even if that community is only a gated collection of well-to-do houses; security for a corporate facility is waaaay down on their client list. Your archetypical LS officer is older, a little (or maybe a lot) out of shape, looks a little soft and/or friendly (well, if you're an upright human citizen), and will tend to go for the heavy pistol riding on his hip. He has a shotgun, sure, but it's in the trunk of his patrol car, and he only gets it out if he really has to. He spends his on-shift downtime in a social situation either with his compatriots (at a bar or in the precinct room) or the public (in a diner/restaurant/donut shop) shooting the bull and decompressing.
As Nath said - LS is more coplike; KE is more akin to a military force 'filling in' as cops. KE gets seen as being more professional, but what that actually tends to mean is that you get the big-brother vibe turned up a notch or two.
-
Hmmm...so taking all of his in consideration, KE is overall the bigger threat to a runner then Star? And presumably, in a straight up fight between the two in a firefight, KE would come out on top due to better training, better discipline, and better equipment?
-
Pretty much, but when you get a firefight between Lone Star and Knight Errant, while the two only act in areas where they're contracted and each area will only get one company contracted, something has gone HORRIBLY wrong.
-
Pretty much, but when you get a firefight between Lone Star and Knight Errant, while the two only act in areas where they're contracted and each area will only get one company contracted, something has gone HORRIBLY wrong.
That, or your team has a damn good Face.
-
Pretty much, but when you get a firefight between Lone Star and Knight Errant, while the two only act in areas where they're contracted and each area will only get one company contracted, something has gone HORRIBLY wrong.
Or horribly right. One run my group did involved hitting a Lone Star data archive that was in a building that hilariously enough had a KE guard in the lobby. Not 10 minutes later my team has the pay data and is on our way out when we pass two back up units, one with KE and the other with Lone Star. No idea exactly what happened with that but it was no doubt hilarious considering KE and Lone Star do not like each other one bit.
-
Playing security corporations against each other has a long and honorable history. There is little that one corporation wants more than to make another look bad, in order to take over a contract. What I would admittedly like to see is for LS to get the Seattle contract back because KE becomes a little too Big Brother in how they handle the contract. Not that LS would be great in the Ork Underground ...
-
I'm fine with KE losing contracts elsewhere to LS, which is already happening. And besides, Brackhaven would never get LS get back in town, given how they were trying to dig up the info that now put him in front of a Grand Jury.
-
amazing how that happened huh?
Kciks out LS to save his ass.... only to end up having the dirt dug up by KE....
-
Technically that was Project Freedom getting awfully close with the A.D.A. ^_^ The irony here is that the A.D.A. that most wanted the Ork Underground to be dealt with, is now working together with them against Brackhaven.
-
Likewise killing KE personnel means killing Ares personnel and while thumbing our noses at the corps is standard, just keep in mind if you make enough of a splash, it could come back to haunt you when a Johnson turns out to be working for Ares and they set you up for an ambush.
Indeed. Killing government employees (and megacorps are practically governments) is seen as spitting at those organizations. Most don't like that - the Romans labeled them as thieves (because they were 'stealing Roman prestige') and publicly executed them.
Lone Star was the "hillbilly" police force. If you didn't match the officer's ideal for metahuman (IE: troll or ork), chances are they would beat the crap out of you, instead of take a statement.
Lone Star is and has been geared for longer as general policing and taking care of mundane matters. As far as awakened threats I'd imagine they're both roughly equally competent (or incompetent). KE has more possible support in technological aspects due to being a major part of a AAA, but they also have more of a history as an Ares-keeper and less as the "good cops on the street". I went looking and didn't find any evidence beyond the Night of Rage Mayan Cutter which as I believe is the event that eventually led to LS being sacked from Seattle. KE is probably better trained in combat but also less likely to be out and about for the general populace - the difference may not be massive, but it's going to be there to one degree or another (and obviously varying from place to place).
...typically the Hillbilly Racist Cops that are always hated on, while Knight Errant is more an all-accepting jackbooted thug
LS basically having less psych screening against meta-haters, while KE had more screening to draw in folks who'd beat a Dwarf or an Ork equally readily?
Knight Errant started out as corporate security, generally recruited from ex-armed forces: "This is Ares property, please depart the premesis."
...the corporate culture is that of 'police officer'. Cops are trained to a much looser idea of offenses, as it were - instead of a binary 'friend/enemy' solution, it's more of a digital 'where you fall on the citizen/perp scale'.
You put it even better than I think I could. In any case, that's all I can think of to mention.
-
I went looking and didn't find any evidence beyond the Night of Rage which as I believe is the event that eventually led to LS being sacked from Seattle.
Ummm... the Metroplex Guard was responsible for the events of the Night of Rage in Seattle. Indeed, how is an event in early 2039 responsible for the organization falling out with their employer in late 2071, over thirty years later? The Mayan Cutter and Tempo are the two big reasons LS lost the contract.
...typically the Hillbilly Racist Cops that are always hated on, while Knight Errant is more an all-accepting jackbooted thug
LS basically having less psych screening against meta-haters, while KE had more screening to draw in folks who'd beat a Dwarf or an Ork equally readily?
More like LS is mostly humans and will kick meta ass out of habit ("he looked guilty to me, sir") while KE will hire all metahumans and basically kick the ass of anyone who isn't THEMSELVES. (Or the asses of those whom they've been hired to kick, guilty or not.)
-
Oops, wrong event. Thanks for the correction. In any case, neither have much to worry given their ability to presume guilt against the little guy.
-
KE is probably better trained in combat but also less likely to be out and about for the general populace - the difference may not be massive, but it's going to be there to one degree or another (and obviously varying from place to place).
Thus, more work for us. Yay! :D
-
Well, I disagree on the thought that KE is less likely to be 'out and about for* the general populace'. (* - Is that meant to be 'in/among'?) When CanRay mentioned 'all-accepting jackbooted thug', and how I anticipate KE's increased affect on Seattle happening, it would be more akin to Ares/KE pressuring the Metroplex for more money for an increased presence, due to whatever reason(s) - the Ork Underground, whatever - and basically becoming more and more restrictive in everyday life to the average citizen, perhaps 'in order to stop the shadowrunner menace'.
This would also mean more work for shadowrunners, but it'd also make things somewhat more difficult to get things done ...
-
Well, I disagree on the thought that KE is less likely to be 'out and about for* the general populace'. (* - Is that meant to be 'in/among'?) When CanRay mentioned 'all-accepting jackbooted thug', and how I anticipate KE's increased affect on Seattle happening, it would be more akin to Ares/KE pressuring the Metroplex for more money for an increased presence, due to whatever reason(s) - the Ork Underground, whatever - and basically becoming more and more restrictive in everyday life to the average citizen, perhaps 'in order to stop the shadowrunner menace'.
This would also mean more work for shadowrunners, but it'd also make things somewhat more difficult to get things done ...
the only issue there Wyrm is the contract. The contract says that KE will enforce UCAS law through out the city. So they are stuck with all those laws that make law enforcement difficult (freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, etc). The only person that can override those laws is the governor with a "state of emergency" address... but those are limited in time (can not be sustained indefinitely).
In short, regardless of how much KE wants the "rules" changed, they can't just change them willy-nilly, in fact they have no control over the laws at all! They simply enforce them.
-
Knight Errant: The Equal Opportunity Exploiter. ;D
-
the only issue there Wyrm is the contract. The contract says that KE will enforce UCAS law through out the city. So they are stuck with all those laws that make law enforcement difficult (freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, etc). The only person that can override those laws is the governor with a "state of emergency" address... but those are limited in time (can not be sustained indefinitely).
In short, regardless of how much KE wants the "rules" changed, they can't just change them willy-nilly, in fact they have no control over the laws at all! They simply enforce them.
Ah, an innocent. So rare these days.
Now, just to give you some broad strokes, using the USA's theoretical governmental structure, we have Legislative Branch (Congress) passing laws, the Executive Branch (the various Departments, culminating in the Office of the President) enforcing those laws, and the Judicial Branch (Federal Judges, culminating in the US Supreme Court) adjudicating possible violations of those laws. What happens is that if there is a law that the People oppose and bring suit against, the Supreme Court can rule unconstitutional and negate, or if the President opposes (but his veto is overriden) a law, he can choose how vigorously, if at all, to enforce it. This happens right up to and including the Constitution and the Amendments itself.
During Prohibition, beat cops stood around nodding while watching street speeches and sales of ingredients for 'health remedies' that gave specific 'advice on how to make sure you don't accidentally make bathtub gin', when they knew it was exactly the opposite - letter of the law followed, spirit of the law violated left and right and in front of their face, in part because they were making bathtub gin themselves. There are currently so many laws, rules, and regulations that many of them are simply ignored, because you'd need a supercomputer to be able to figure out how many were being violated within your vision just driving down the street. But if a Police Chief, or District Attourney, or Mayor, or Governor is wanting to look 'strict on X', then X gets really cracked down on.
So it would be - should be, and probably is, at least in most games - in SR. However, consider that all those laws are still on the books. KE doesn't need to change the rules - they only need to decide which ones they want to really enforce. And if they wanted to - since they are contractually obliged to enforce all the laws - they could turn whatever public zone they have an enforcement contract for into an uncomfortable place to exist indeed.
Just in Seattle, for example: Spitting on a bus? Ticket. A woman sitting on a man’s lap on a bus or train without placing a pillow between them? Automatic six-month jail term. Up in Everett? It's against the law to feed the ducks.
So it isn't a matter of being restricted; it's a matter of whether or not KE wants to be 100% total dicks. They can find the laws that allow them. And even just normally, hell, jaywalking is a ticketable offense ...
-
Just in Seattle, for example: Spitting on a bus? Ticket. A woman sitting on a man’s lap on a bus or train without placing a pillow between them? Automatic six-month jail term. Up in Everett? It's against the law to feed the ducks.
What.
-
Just in Seattle, for example: Spitting on a bus? Ticket. A woman sitting on a man’s lap on a bus or train without placing a pillow between them? Automatic six-month jail term. Up in Everett? It's against the law to feed the ducks.
What.
Lots of weird/stupid laws are still on the books, and more are even being made today.
I remember a law that was passed that made Internet Cafes illegal by mistake.
-
the only issue there Wyrm is the contract. The contract says that KE will enforce UCAS law through out the city. So they are stuck with all those laws that make law enforcement difficult (freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, etc). The only person that can override those laws is the governor with a "state of emergency" address... but those are limited in time (can not be sustained indefinitely).
In short, regardless of how much KE wants the "rules" changed, they can't just change them willy-nilly, in fact they have no control over the laws at all! They simply enforce them.
Ah, an innocent. So rare these days.
Now, just to give you some broad strokes, using the USA's theoretical governmental structure, we have Legislative Branch (Congress) passing laws, the Executive Branch (the various Departments, culminating in the Office of the President) enforcing those laws, and the Judicial Branch (Federal Judges, culminating in the US Supreme Court) adjudicating possible violations of those laws. What happens is that if there is a law that the People oppose and bring suit against, the Supreme Court can rule unconstitutional and negate, or if the President opposes (but his veto is overriden) a law, he can choose how vigorously, if at all, to enforce it. This happens right up to and including the Constitution and the Amendments itself.
During Prohibition, beat cops stood around nodding while watching street speeches and sales of ingredients for 'health remedies' that gave specific 'advice on how to make sure you don't accidentally make bathtub gin', when they knew it was exactly the opposite - letter of the law followed, spirit of the law violated left and right and in front of their face, in part because they were making bathtub gin themselves. There are currently so many laws, rules, and regulations that many of them are simply ignored, because you'd need a supercomputer to be able to figure out how many were being violated within your vision just driving down the street. But if a Police Chief, or District Attourney, or Mayor, or Governor is wanting to look 'strict on X', then X gets really cracked down on.
So it would be - should be, and probably is, at least in most games - in SR. However, consider that all those laws are still on the books. KE doesn't need to change the rules - they only need to decide which ones they want to really enforce. And if they wanted to - since they are contractually obliged to enforce all the laws - they could turn whatever public zone they have an enforcement contract for into an uncomfortable place to exist indeed.
Just in Seattle, for example: Spitting on a bus? Ticket. A woman sitting on a man’s lap on a bus or train without placing a pillow between them? Automatic six-month jail term. Up in Everett? It's against the law to feed the ducks.
So it isn't a matter of being restricted; it's a matter of whether or not KE wants to be 100% total dicks. They can find the laws that allow them. And even just normally, hell, jaywalking is a ticketable offense ...
you are forgetting two important things:
First it's the United Canadian American States :D Canadian laws run a little differently but yes, you have the giest of it.
But you forgot that, there is also "invalided" laws as well. These are laws the courts have struck down for a variety of reasons (dated is the most often one, or conflict with other laws, etc) There is no point in trying to enforce a law that the courts have deemed invalid (for whatever reason) as this just costs the system time and money. But this is all besides the point as you missed mine.
Just cause KE steps in as the new police force doesn't mean the entire legal system gets a rewrite. They can not stop people from gathering in numbers, or speaking out about an injustice. Or invade your home without a warrant (if you have a SIN). In short, they have to follow the laws guidelines laid out by the UCAS, and just can "make it up as they go". Sure they can adjust resources and use legal means to target sections of the illegal community.... but they just can't (for example) shoot every car thief on the justification that they are stopping auto crime. But they could use more bait cars, drone ID survailance, random police stops, patrols, or any other LEGAL means to make it harder on car thieves (including giving vehicle owners tickets for not locking their doors!)
In short, it's "the same game against a different team" rather than entirely different game.
-
Just in Seattle, for example: Spitting on a bus? Ticket. A woman sitting on a man’s lap on a bus or train without placing a pillow between them? Automatic six-month jail term. Up in Everett? It's against the law to feed the ducks.
What.
Lots of weird/stupid laws are still on the books, and more are even being made today.
I remember a law that was passed that made Internet Cafes illegal by mistake.
next time you get arrested for public intoxication, remember to demand your horse, your rifle and 12 rounds of ammo that the Winnipeg police are legally obligated to give a drunk on his release. :D
(talk about stupid laws :D)
-
Oh and if you live in Ohio and own a cat and a dog and they live in the same house, make sure you get your cat-dog marriage license or the city could fine your pets $5 a day!
-
Just in Seattle, for example: Spitting on a bus? Ticket. A woman sitting on a man’s lap on a bus or train without placing a pillow between them? Automatic six-month jail term. Up in Everett? It's against the law to feed the ducks.
What.
Lots of weird/stupid laws are still on the books, and more are even being made today.
I remember a law that was passed that made Internet Cafes illegal by mistake.
next time you get arrested for public intoxication, remember to demand your horse, your rifle and 12 rounds of ammo that the Winnipeg police are legally obligated to give a drunk on his release. :D
(talk about stupid laws :D)
Remains from the days of wild west?
-
next time you get arrested for public intoxication, remember to demand your horse, your rifle and 12 rounds of ammo that the Winnipeg police are legally obligated to give a drunk on his release. :D
(talk about stupid laws :D)
Remains from the days of wild west?
Possibly, or from when Winnipeg was the Murder Capital of Canada, and that was your best chance of getting out of town before the guy you beat up at the bar comes back to kill you while hung-over.
I, however, don't overindulge in alcohol, so I can't get my horse, rifle, and ammo for "free". :'(
Oh well, $150+ for a rental at the range I found. Just wish I could afford it more often. For, um, research, yeah.
-
I, however, don't overindulge in alcohol, so I can't get my horse, rifle, and ammo for "free". :'(
Atleast you Canadians can get ammo. Here I am in the middle of the heartland of 'merica and can't find a case of .22 to shoot because of the panic of Obama and all the old guys buying all the shipments in bulk to sell at jacked up prices on crig's list or armslist.
-
Have you checked in with your fixer?
-
You mean the dude that hangs out under the overpass, dressed in a bluish black trench coat, and greets everyone with "Welcome Stranger!"?
Checked in with him the other day and even he's starting to overcharge. >:(
-
In short, regardless of how much KE wants the "rules" changed, they can't just change them willy-nilly, in fact they have no control over the laws at all! They simply enforce them.
So it isn't a matter of being restricted; it's a matter of whether or not KE wants to be 100% total dicks. They can find the laws that allow them. And even just normally, hell, jaywalking is a ticketable offense ...
Just cause KE steps in as the new police force doesn't mean the entire legal system gets a rewrite. They can not stop people from gathering in numbers, or speaking out about an injustice. Or invade your home without a warrant (if you have a SIN). In short, they have to follow the laws guidelines laid out by the UCAS, and just can "make it up as they go". Sure they can adjust resources and use legal means to target sections of the illegal community.... but they just can't (for example) shoot every car thief on the justification that they are stopping auto crime. But they could use more bait cars, drone ID survailance, random police stops, patrols, or any other LEGAL means to make it harder on car thieves (including giving vehicle owners tickets for not locking their doors!)
In short, it's "the same game against a different team" rather than entirely different game.
No offense, but I haven't forgotten anything; cities still have their own laws, often - usually - surviving changes in nationality. I'm also not talking about the broad sweeping constitutional rights that you are. What I'm talking about is what could make Knight Errant lose the Seattle contract, by dint of their being your 'all-accepting general jack-booted thug'.
In point of fact, Damien Knight's personal jackbooted thugs. So maybe Damien's visiting Seattle, and some people have pissed in his Cheerios every day for the entire week. He doesn't know much about them, except it's an athletic blonde male human, a brunette ork female, an androgynous elf with a datajack, and they're all driving around in a dark-colored sedan. So he tells KE, 'Find these guys.'
KE is now on the lookout, pulling over every dark-colored sedan so they can get a look inside, hassling every athletic blonde male human, picking on every brunette ork female, and putting every elf with a datajack against the wall for a frisking. They turn a little LawyerBot loose in every KE officer's commlink, specifically to Come Up With A Reason You Can Be Stopping (Target Person/Vehicle X/Y/Z). Take your pick:
- "A vehicle answering this description and GridGuide signature was recently reported as being stolen. Please step out of the car with your hands in plain view at all times."
- "Sir, littering is a misdemeanor punishable by up to a ¥250 fine and ten days in jail. Let me see your ID.
- "Down on the ground, and spread 'em!! Sir, I have a ork female potentially matching the code 187 at Market and First."
Or maybe Damien just wants Seattle to run like a Swiss watch. Sure, KE lets people gather in numbers, doesn't stop them from speaking out against a perceived injustice, and doesn't invade their homes; sure enough. But any group receives two KE cops per 10-15 people involved who are there 'just to make sure no violence erupts'. Any person speaking out against an perceived injustice is welcomed with a friendly smile by a 'face' cop, asked to come talk about that injustice and how to correct it ... and once they're away from the public (and the cameras, and the KE hacker has sliced the outspoken person's personal cam, etc.) they get quietly intimidated. "This isn't -really- a problem, considering how much damage X is doing ... and how much we're working on it with big, burly gentlemen like the three coming in the room right now ... is it?" And invading their homes ... hell, that's what black-bag jobs (and shadowrunners!!) are all about.
I agree completely with you that the laws haven't changed, and that KE can't change them. You seem to be missing the fact that I'm saying that KE, like police departments everywhere, have the ability to enforce laws and regulations with selective vigor. 90+% of the time, that 'selective enforcement' is going to be completely legal. My point is that such selective enforcement could raise enough outcry to the Governor's Mansion that KE loses the contract at the next bidding cycle.
It isn't that it's a different sport; it's that it's the same sport played with a different style, and with a different aim. Boxing is boxing, but one guy may be a puncher, another is a boxer, and the third is a sadist who only wants to make you hurt for as long as possible.
-
And don't forget about the "Ares is a hive" angle.
-
And don't forget about the "Ares is a hive" angle.
Was thinking the same...
How long before some personnel shuffling between the subdivisions lands a bug among the KE, though one would think they would be screening heavily against this.
Or possibly seeing some bugtech prototypes being used in the field, lab testing is nice but practical application under real conditions is still a good way to test something.
-
In short, regardless of how much KE wants the "rules" changed, they can't just change them willy-nilly, in fact they have no control over the laws at all! They simply enforce them.
So it isn't a matter of being restricted; it's a matter of whether or not KE wants to be 100% total dicks. They can find the laws that allow them. And even just normally, hell, jaywalking is a ticketable offense ...
Just cause KE steps in as the new police force doesn't mean the entire legal system gets a rewrite. They can not stop people from gathering in numbers, or speaking out about an injustice. Or invade your home without a warrant (if you have a SIN). In short, they have to follow the laws guidelines laid out by the UCAS, and just can "make it up as they go". Sure they can adjust resources and use legal means to target sections of the illegal community.... but they just can't (for example) shoot every car thief on the justification that they are stopping auto crime. But they could use more bait cars, drone ID survailance, random police stops, patrols, or any other LEGAL means to make it harder on car thieves (including giving vehicle owners tickets for not locking their doors!)
In short, it's "the same game against a different team" rather than entirely different game.
No offense, but I haven't forgotten anything; cities still have their own laws, often - usually - surviving changes in nationality. I'm also not talking about the broad sweeping constitutional rights that you are. What I'm talking about is what could make Knight Errant lose the Seattle contract, by dint of their being your 'all-accepting general jack-booted thug'.
In point of fact, Damien Knight's personal jackbooted thugs. So maybe Damien's visiting Seattle, and some people have pissed in his Cheerios every day for the entire week. He doesn't know much about them, except it's an athletic blonde male human, a brunette ork female, an androgynous elf with a datajack, and they're all driving around in a dark-colored sedan. So he tells KE, 'Find these guys.'
KE is now on the lookout, pulling over every dark-colored sedan so they can get a look inside, hassling every athletic blonde male human, picking on every brunette ork female, and putting every elf with a datajack against the wall for a frisking. They turn a little LawyerBot loose in every KE officer's commlink, specifically to Come Up With A Reason You Can Be Stopping (Target Person/Vehicle X/Y/Z). Take your pick:
- "A vehicle answering this description and GridGuide signature was recently reported as being stolen. Please step out of the car with your hands in plain view at all times."
- "Sir, littering is a misdemeanor punishable by up to a ¥250 fine and ten days in jail. Let me see your ID.
- "Down on the ground, and spread 'em!! Sir, I have a ork female potentially matching the code 187 at Market and First."
Or maybe Damien just wants Seattle to run like a Swiss watch. Sure, KE lets people gather in numbers, doesn't stop them from speaking out against a perceived injustice, and doesn't invade their homes; sure enough. But any group receives two KE cops per 10-15 people involved who are there 'just to make sure no violence erupts'. Any person speaking out against an perceived injustice is welcomed with a friendly smile by a 'face' cop, asked to come talk about that injustice and how to correct it ... and once they're away from the public (and the cameras, and the KE hacker has sliced the outspoken person's personal cam, etc.) they get quietly intimidated. "This isn't -really- a problem, considering how much damage X is doing ... and how much we're working on it with big, burly gentlemen like the three coming in the room right now ... is it?" And invading their homes ... hell, that's what black-bag jobs (and shadowrunners!!) are all about.
I agree completely with you that the laws haven't changed, and that KE can't change them. You seem to be missing the fact that I'm saying that KE, like police departments everywhere, have the ability to enforce laws and regulations with selective vigor. 90+% of the time, that 'selective enforcement' is going to be completely legal. My point is that such selective enforcement could raise enough outcry to the Governor's Mansion that KE loses the contract at the next bidding cycle.
It isn't that it's a different sport; it's that it's the same sport played with a different style, and with a different aim. Boxing is boxing, but one guy may be a puncher, another is a boxer, and the third is a sadist who only wants to make you hurt for as long as possible.
Wyrm, re-read everything again, we are basically arguing the same thing. the only difference is the perspective of the Corp.
I see Knight Errant as what it is: a Company under the umbra of Ares. That means it has to turn a profit, or report just why not to the stockholders and thus the "Higher ups". (and ultimately the board of directors for Ares, not just Damien Knight.) However, they also need Seattle to appear to be under control and that they are doing a professional job (in hopes of attracting more cities across the world/North America). To lure other cities away from Lone Star, Knight errant has to be more professional, get better results, have a high community support/involvement, be cheaper.... Or at least "better in the majority of the City's concerns".
So, they (as a company) might over spend in Seattle for a short while (especially if they suspect other cities are shopping around for a new provider), but in the long run they expect Seattle to turn a profit.... I highly doubt that Seattle is going to pay for a "cop on every corner" police state, nor do I think Knight errant could afford that much manpower.... (but they probably would if they could AND turn a profit!)
I guess it depends on how dystopian of an environment and/or controlling you want to make the Corps....
-
And don't forget about the "Ares is a hive" angle.
Was thinking the same...
How long before some personnel shuffling between the subdivisions lands a bug among the KE, though one would think they would be screening heavily against this.
You mean "plants", right? ;D
-
I would say reading the entry on Hard Exit in "Street Legends Supplemental" gives you some insights also into Lone Star corporate culture and what it means to us in the Shadows.
Hard Exit comes from the first generation of children born as Lone Star corporate citizens, and she was even born in Austin. That is important enough, but you have to consider that as chauvinistic as the Star culture is now, it was magnitudes worse back then, and Austin was the epicenter of it all. The newly divided city was still a low-intensity conflict zone when she was born, and Lone Star was right in the middle. This would come to define her, as she was a girl who was born and raised in a culture where men mattered and women were little more than brood mares. No matter how much she resisted, and how much she asserted herself, Clay Wilson’s retro empire had a specific vision for women: Shut up and serve your man, and Lone Star too. Growing up in Austin also gave her a peculiar insight into life within conflict zones, which is now where she commonly works.
She had a difficult task ahead of her, since the us-versus-them way of thinking was practically a religion within Lone Star.
> Of course it didn’t last. Once we left and KE took over, they threw away any goodwill we had developed and went back to their policy of mechanical dissociation and mental intimidation. It’s still better than the bullying knuckle-draggers in Lone Star, but not by much.
> Hard Exit
I also find it rather hilarious that Clay Wilson, the founder of Lone Star, was hired to replace Roger Soaring Eagle after his resignation as Knight Errant Executive VP. (Damien Knight's entry in the same supplemental)
-
Its mentioned in the source books (and likely in here too and I just missed it) but there is of course also the differences in access and corporate politics.
KE has no problem to chase you into Ares property where LS has to stop and ask first. Likewise, if you just come out of a Ares building hot then the KE units outside probably have all the information of you and will likely also coordinate with the security detail on your tail. It might even be possible that the building security, also being KE; can and will follow you into the city.
Of course if you are on the run from the security of an Ares competitor, the response might be a little bit slower and weaker than what you would expect.
-
Its mentioned in the source books (and likely in here too and I just missed it) but there is of course also the differences in access and corporate politics.
KE has no problem to chase you into Ares property where LS has to stop and ask first. Likewise, if you just come out of a Ares building hot then the KE units outside probably have all the information of you and will likely also coordinate with the security detail on your tail. It might even be possible that the building security, also being KE; can and will follow you into the city.
Of course if you are on the run from the security of an Ares competitor, the response might be a little bit slower and weaker than what you would expect.
There's also the possibility that the KE corporate security division is separate from the division that handles public safety. There could very well be inter-divisional conflicts similar to what happens in Lone Star. KE is still staffed by people after all and you can't discipline out all the conflicts of interest that can happen in a corporate environment.
-
I guess my take on the difference is where I see the core lines and how it effects the runner on the street.
Lone Star sells security and does other stuff on the side
Ares is a weapons manufacturing giant which has a security division
The way I see it if you look at the high enough numbers Ares is willing to fund KE right out of advertising budget for the new gear ( and the KE income gets funneled somewhere else, and I bet KE almost always operates at a loss in UCAS so they can request tax write offs and...)
In any case KE people have more access to milspec than LS and are trained or told to use it if they can get away with it
Collateral damage isn't too much to worry about to an AAA especially if you know that with the right PR the news nets will run it for you (and the shell news comps that Ares actually owns) and every banana republic dictator drools over the trivid of what that new shiny gun can do
Of course that can work for the average runner who is smart
KE doing security for the place you need to hit and you heard a rumor that they just finished ironing out the last set of bugs on the X1-511 Sniper rifle they were playing with. Hit another Ares building and hack the advertising and shipping data. Does it look like they left notes that the new toy is going to come to town. And hey are they renting offices with overlooks near various properties including the one you need to hit that would give some chill fields of fire. Good thing you didn't walk into that ambush. Though a lone sniper not expecting anyone but his friends to know where he is wouldn't be to hard for a team to take down would it. Interesting confusion if the support sniper started taking pot shots at KE people. And the gun not on the market your fixer could do something with that right. And those other rifles, the shipping docks and the buildings where they are going to might be extraterritorial but the street between them isn't. I'm sure Lone Star would love to catch Ares moving prototype military sniper rifles through the streets...
-
I have a question...
Give the Knight Errant security is from Ares and not their own corp, is it possible they might be more amenable to hiring runners to take care of dirty work and do undercover investigations than Lone Star would be?
-
Yes and no.
Executives - not officers - who come into KE from other parts of the corporation are more likely to do so, certainly. At the heart of it, though, KE provides security for Ares against criminals - shadowrunners - and there's a mindset that tends to come with that sort of individual. Yes, cops use their little roster of snitches, but a security guard just doesn't trust anyone. I would actually think that LS would be more likely to use shadowrunners to get the dirt ... but you never know. Tosh Athack seemed willing enough to use 'runners ...