Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Sir_Prometheus on <06-27-14/1245:22>
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I'm only a little way into the book. But I just finished the section where Butch does all her trials. And initially, I just thought, or assumed, really, that she was just treating known CFD cases, or emerging cases, and doing reasonable controls to see what helped fight it, or didn't. But then it became clear that she was purposefully infecting new metahuman subjects. And a vampire and ghoul. And feeding uninfected people to both the ghoul and vampire and seeing if they got infected in turn. That's messed up.
But none of the jackpoint commentators say anything about this, beyond one person asking "did you feed the vampire". They all just basically thank her for her work and move on. It's not really stated where these subjects come from, if they were convicted criminals, corporate goons, or what, I'm mostly just assuming they came off the street.
Again, that's messed up.
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But Butch is not enjoying this at all and is having to make several difficult decisions in pursuit of trying to find a cure to save others.
You can not quite compare this to the infamous 'Angel of Death' who by many accounts of survivors and guards delighted in bizarre experimentation and torture with little regard for the health or safety of his subjects.
Butch tries to deal as humanely as reasonably possible and again it is taken it's toll on the doc.
Is Butch a saint? No.
But there are few others I would want at my back if I was facing what they were.
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Purposely sacrificing random people is not "not a saint", it's horrendously evil. OK, great, she's not a sadist and doesn't especially enjoy it. So? That makes it like .000001% better.
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No. Just no.
If you are seriously making that comparison, you need to read the hell up on what Mengele actually did...
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No, Prometheus, it isn't evil. It is part of medical research at its most fundamental. When looking to try and profile a disease and find a cure, you need test subjects. Even today, you know how they test a vaccine for something like Anthrax? They take a bunch of people, give them the vaccine (and some of them get a placebo, because you need a control group) and intentionally expose them to Anthrax. It is the only way to know it works. There's only so much you can do with animal trials. When dealing with something that affects the brain like CFD does, animal trials are completely useless. You can call it evil all you like, but these are the basic methods doctors and pathologists have been using for years to work towards cures for diseases. Even before they knew about things like viruses, there had always been medical schools hiring grave robbers to literally dig up cadavers for dissection. You know how we found out that HIV was spread through more than just gay people having sex? People went out and did studies. And some of those studies involved things like exposure to infected bodily fluids, or exposure to the same air to see if it was airborne, and so on. And because of that, we now know enough to at least control the spread of AIDS in the first world. Even in Shadowrun, you know all those tests people have done on the Infected, trying to find a cure, or a vaccine, or some way to just 'manage' the situation? Those involved Infected test subjects. And you better believe they got fed.
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Butch actually addresses this issue partway through. Another Jackpointer calls her on her actions and brings up the Hippocratic Oath (Which interestingly seems to imply that Butch, unlike a lot of street docs, may have COMPLETED her medical training).
Butch then replies with her justification on how her violations in fact follow her reading of the oath. And let's also be straight. These are shadowrunners. They do illegal, immoral and unethical things on a daily basis and get paid for it. Kidnapping, extortion, premeditated murder, theft, arson, the list goes on and on. There is no black and white in the shadows, only darker and lighter shades of gray. Evil in this case is simply relative. Butch acknowledges that her actions can be construed as morally repugnant but at least justifies that it is for a greater good.
Does that forgive her? Maybe. Maybe not. It's not really my place to judge. I probably would not do the same in her case, but then, I don't live in a world where Dragons can snack on you, or nanite viruses can take over my being and overwrite my personality.
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Simple fact is that sometimes you have to make hard choices. Sometimes those choices involve deliberately sending people to their deaths in order to save the greater populace. If you read World War Z, there's a character who came up with a plan to save humanity from the zombie threat. This plan? Take a portion of the population, and evacuate them to 'safe areas', preferably with natural boundaries in the way of any zombies. Concentrate the remaining armed forces there, so you can have a chance of survival. Everyone else? Send them to an isolated area as live bait to keep the swarms away from the retreating forces heading to the safe zone. And this plan was credited with saving the world in the book.
There's a quote that sticks out to me, "The first casualty of the conflict must be our own sentimentality, for its survival will mean our destruction."
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Good and evil is subjective. In the long run, I'd rather have Butch doing these tests to know as much as we do about CFD as quickly as we do. Otherwise, the situation might be WAY worse. Butch made some sacrifices, personally, professionally, and morally. But those sacrifices were for the greater good.
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No, Prometheus, it isn't evil. It is part of medical research at its most fundamental. When looking to try and profile a disease and find a cure, you need test subjects. Even today, you know how they test a vaccine for something like Anthrax? They take a bunch of people, give them the vaccine (and some of them get a placebo, because you need a control group) and intentionally expose them to Anthrax. It is the only way to know it works. There's only so much you can do with animal trials. When dealing with something that affects the brain like CFD does, animal trials are completely useless. You can call it evil all you like, but these are the basic methods doctors and pathologists have been using for years to work towards cures for diseases. Even before they knew about things like viruses, there had always been medical schools hiring grave robbers to literally dig up cadavers for dissection. You know how we found out that HIV was spread through more than just gay people having sex? People went out and did studies. And some of those studies involved things like exposure to infected bodily fluids, or exposure to the same air to see if it was airborne, and so on. And because of that, we now know enough to at least control the spread of AIDS in the first world. Even in Shadowrun, you know all those tests people have done on the Infected, trying to find a cure, or a vaccine, or some way to just 'manage' the situation? Those involved Infected test subjects. And you better believe they got fed.
Yes, it is clearly evil.
Do you know what would happen, in the US, if a doctor purposefully gave a healthy person a deadly disease, just to see if they could cure it? They'd be charged with murder, or attempted murder, depending.
No, they don't in fact infect people with anthrax, or HIV.
The closet that's ever happened was the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, and that was back in 1932 and basically a big racist ball of mess. It's infamous for a reason.
I get it, Shadowrunners do evil things. But they're rarely so casual about it, and most of them have limits.
As for those of who think anything like this is done in real life (in western civilized countries, anyway) or somehow think it would be ok if it was.......something is wrong with you.
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When faced with the potential for a global pandemic (which is what CFD is), I find that my list of things that are OK to halt the spread or find a cure for the disease gets fairly large. It would be really nice if things were black and white, but sometimes there's only the choice of 'find a way to stop this, no matter the cost' or 'watch everything around you burn to the ground'. And you'll note that Butch isn't casual about it. Despite trying to keep a wall of medical detachment, she's pretty clearly haunted by it.
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Yeah, Mengele might be a bad comparison. The best comparison would be British "innoculating" the local indians against small pox by way of infected blankets and hankerchiefs in Philadelphia.
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Yes, it is clearly evil.
You are right. It is evil and I doubt Butch will ever sleep well from this.
But that did not mean it was not necessary.
My main objection remains the comparison to Mengele who was a whole other level of evil but that is a debate for another day.
In the meantime in SR, there are governments and corps doing the exact same thing because that is pretty much how experimentation goes.
And do not forget that somebody created this mess in the first place so I shudder to think of the sort of things were going on there.... Cerebus has a lot of ragers wanting payback among others...
The big difference here is that Butch is sharing that data with the rest of them whereas the corps and government are not sharing data with each other and certainly not with the Joe on the street.
Does that make what Butch doing 'right' or moral? Still a big NO on the moral side, but it does not make the necessity of it any less.
So rather than a constant argument back and forth on morality, why not come down off the pulpit and just tell us what would YOU have done in their place?
YOU have the luxury of reading all the data to date and can sit there to decide, well this worked and that didn't and that should never have happened, but remember Butch didn't have the benefit of hindsight and had to muddle along as best as they could, making good and bad decisions and trying avenues of thought that are quite frankly distasteful but did yield useful information.
Were the Jackpointers a bit casual, perhaps but don't think they will forget either. I doubt Butch will and she will judge herself harsher than you or I probably could.
Not saying anyone should excuse what she did, but rather than cruxify her entirely out of hand, you might still want to reserve a bit of sympathy for each bit of her that died along the way in this harrowing affair.
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You people are way too hung up on Mengele. Yes, I know everything he did, yes, I think the comparison is apt, in kind if not in mangitutde. Nonetheless, I've change the title, just because that's NOT what I want to be talking about.
Other than that, what several of you are saying is shocking, and sorta scary. Say the swine flu or bird flu had became the epidemics we feared they might, at the time. Say, 50% death rate. Do you think the CDC would go around infecting random healthy people in order to run tests on how to treat it? For the greater good? Cuz they could maybe save millions by sacrificing 25-50 people? I assure you they would not. And a society in which they would would be damaged.
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I get it, Shadowrunners do evil things. But they're rarely so casual about it, and most of them have limits.
Citation needed. I'm sure if you asked the right people you'd get a response that Shadowrunners are universally evil, immoral and smelly too.
Besides which I don't think Butch is at all casual about this. It was a fully thought through process after gathering information and SEEING what CFD did to people, from executives, to small children, to close friends. The fact that she lays it out matter of factly reflects how determined she is at this point. I don't think there was any part of this undertaken casually.
And in any case, what makes other shadowrunners more excusable? Or Butch less excusable? After all to paraphrase Sam Vimes: "Accepting a bribe to let a petty criminal go, or accepting a bribe to let a murderer walk are the same. Everything else is just haggling about the price."
As for those of who think anything like this is done in real life (in western civilized countries, anyway) or somehow think it would be ok if it was.......something is wrong with you.
That's an awfully small scope you're limiting things to there, and it kind of misses the point. This isn't real life western civilized countries. This is alternate future western quasi-civilized countries that are afflicted with an all-but-incurable pandemic threatening life looming on the horizon. This isn't Mengele's purely academic interests in twins, heterochromia or dwarfism inspired by the opportunity of having a captive population to draw from. This is desperation fueled by an absolute need for knowledge in order to find a cure in time.
Don't forget, this is Shadowrun in the 2070s. Some 60 years ago, in the timeline, VITAS I wiped out a quarter of the entire world's population. Mexico City and Calcutta were both Burned to the Ground in order to attempt to prevent spread. Africa alone suffered some 800 Million casualties.
10 years later Vitas II stripped another 900 million (10% of the world's population) despite having cures on hand. As a Doctor in the 2070s, Butch has these statistics hanging over her head. If the deaths of 20, 30, 50 people could save potentially up to 900 MILLION? 50 doesn't sound so bad anymore. Is she wrong? Is she right? Is she evil?
If she succeeds, will it matter? Or for that matter... if she fails?
"When one man dies, it's a tragedy. When thousands die, it's statistics."
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You bring up a good point, ProfGast. To carry forward the Mengele analogy, if Mengele had stumbled upon the cure to cancer, or found some way to take humanity to the next step in evolution, I don't know how many people would care about the methods used 80 years later. Not saying what he did was right, and I'm not saying that what Butch did was right. But history does have a habit of eventually making the ends justify the means.
To take this even further back - if the neanderthals had not wiped out the cromagnons, we wouldn't exist. Do we mourn the devastation of the cromagnons? Not a whit.
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You people are way too hung up on Mengele.
So, you start a topic comparing Butch, a fictional SR character, to Josef Mengele, a very real person who committed atrocious acts against other very real people, and you have the gall to call US "hung up"?
You made the comparison. You chose to turn the argument around when faced with the realization that perhaps your analogy was out of line. You continue to display a level of insensitivity that I find, quite frankly, astonishing, by trivializing your own stance instead of apologizing for making it in the first place.
Have a nice day.
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To take this even further back - if the neanderthals had not wiped out the cromagnons, we wouldn't exist. Do we mourn the devastation of the cromagnons? Not a whit.
Umm... Nami?
In most parts Cro Magnons won, or at least they were still around after the Neanderthals went extinct (or absorbed as some theorized). :P
Now you are gonna have to bring your family album out because I am curious......
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Even today, you know how they test a vaccine for something like Anthrax? They take a bunch of people, give them the vaccine (and some of them get a placebo, because you need a control group) and intentionally expose them to Anthrax.
No, you don't. Exposing human subjects to a pathogen which would kill 90% of the control group and potentially even the trial group would be exactly what Mengele did, and accordingly would result in the same treatment as other war criminals. Vaccines and treatments are tested on populations which are naturally exposed to a pathogen, but intentionally infecting people is simply out.
You know how we found out that HIV was spread through more than just gay people having sex? People went out and did studies. And some of those studies involved things like exposure to infected bodily fluids, or exposure to the same air to see if it was airborne, and so on.
Bullshit. Really, before making statements about some of the most sensitive areas of medical research, do some research yourself.
Yes, Butch has gone down the deep end, Whether this is just another case of Jackpointers acting out of character or intentionally remains to be seen, but in both cases, the suggested procedure remains the same...
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You people are way too hung up on Mengele.
So, you start a topic comparing Butch, a fictional SR character, to Josef Mengele, a very real person who committed atrocious acts against other very real people, and you have the gall to call US "hung up"?
You made the comparison. You chose to turn the argument around when faced with the realization that perhaps your analogy was out of line. You continue to display a level of insensitivity that I find, quite frankly, astonishing, by trivializing your own stance instead of apologizing for making it in the first place.
Have a nice day.
A) What part of "that's not what I wanted to talk about" didn't you understand?
B) What, you can't compare fictional and real people now? If shadowrun had some charismatic racist that sent millions of people to death camps, you couldn't compare them to hitler? What if instead of killing 6 million, he only killed 1 million, does that all of sudden make it somehow wrong to make the comparison?
C) I in no way think the comparison was out of line, don't put words in my mouth.
D) I honestly think you just like to start fights. I haven't been insensitive about anything. I mentioned a real-world monster who did monstrous things, and you seem think that gives you license to be offended and indignant.
To carry forward the Mengele analogy, if Mengele had stumbled upon the cure to cancer, or found some way to take humanity to the next step in evolution, I don't know how many people would care about the methods used 80 years later.
No, I don't think if he had cured cancer that would have changed anything. Everything he did would still be monstrous. If I recall, a lot of his experiments had real scientific merit.......they were still awful. Kinda my whole point, really. Butch's experiments definitely had scientific merit. But she killed what, at least several dozen (presumably innocent) people?
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I would personally kill several dozen people to save hundreds of millions. Anybody who would rather let the hundreds of millions die is, in my opinion, the damaged one.
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Umm... Nami?
In most parts Cro Magnons won, or at least they were still around after the Neanderthals went extinct (or absorbed as some theorized). :P
Now you are gonna have to bring your family album out because I am curious......
BAH! I got it backward. :P Though my brother certainly seems pretty damn caveman-ish.
No, I don't think if he had cured cancer that would have changed anything. Everything he did would still be monstrous. If I recall, a lot of his experiments had real scientific merit.......they were still awful. Kinda my whole point, really.
My point is that in the long run, history doesn't care about monstrosity. We exist solely because of the largest genocide of human-ish peoples in the history of the world.
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If I recall, a lot of [Mengele's] experiments had real scientific merit......
Proving rather unequivocally that you have no idea what you're talking about. That you can even make such a statement simply goes to show that your initial argument had zero merit.
Thank you for proving my point.
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If I recall, a lot of [Mengele's] experiments had real scientific merit......
Proving rather unequivocally that you have no idea what you're talking about. That you can even make such a statement simply goes to show that your initial argument had zero merit.
Thank you for proving my point.
You've proved nothing, you're just being disruptive. But if that means you're going to move along, that's appreciated.
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I didn't need to prove anything, Prometheus, you did that quite well yourself.
And if you think someone wanting to dismiss the so-called "research" of a madman like Mengele qualifies as "being disruptive" I will happily keep calling you out on it, because what that man did was nothing short of inhuman.
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Prove what, how? All you're doing is acting indignant without cause. You're not disruptive because you hate Mengele, everyone hates Mengele, you're disruptive because literally searching for stuff to be offended and have a fight about.
Please stop and let us go back to discussing stolen souls.
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Butch ≠ Mengele
That was the point I was making. That is the point you yourself have proven by virtue of changing the thread subject and redacting your original post, even if you continually refuse to admit as much, for reasons unknown.
Yes, Butch performed experiments that were of questionable ethical and moral fiber, both by our standard and of that of Shadowrun's fictional setting, but she is no worse (one might even argue far less so) than the megacorps who routinely show their lack of morality by such acts as dissecting the goblinized, the Infected, Awakened and Emerged, all in the name of "science", and their ruthless dedication to fiscal gains through complete and utter lack of regard for anyone or anything.
At least Butch had an overarching goal that included what she regards as the best interest of (meta)humanity, and I think Butch knows full well that she's forever lost something of herself with her whole Exitus Acta Probat attitude and methodology. Judging by the other people who've replied, it seems like this is a fairly common perception.
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You don't have a point.
I changed the title because I did not want to spend half the thread talking about Mengele, not because I don't think the comparison is apt, quite the contrary. (also, nothing was redacted, use words properly, please)
You have both made that action useless, and at least twice claimed that meant I was admitting an error, despite me repeatedly telling you otherwise.
So, I'm changing it back, just for you.
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Bravo.
Your attempt at antagonizing me changes nothing; Butch still is nothing like Josef Mengele in my opinion.
Edit:
Why even create a thread comparing Butch to Mengele if you didn't want to talk about him? Understanding who he was and what he did is essential to your comparison, and you have utterly failed at this by claiming "most" of his research was scientifically valid, when even just two minutes on Google clearly indicates that everything that man did in the concentration camps was pseudoscience at best, and utterly reprehensible, inhuman torture at worst.
My point still stands. I can't say the same for yours, as you've provided absolutely no evidence beyond "because I think so" for why the comparison is even remotely valid.
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Grow up about the Mengele' shit, people. Drop it; get back to the question.
Is it evil, what she's doing? For a certain definition of evil, yes; for black-and-white, yes, absolutely. Everyone else is focussed on bits and bobs, though, and they're really really not looking at the real issues that a) the SR world faces in this, b) the actions taken, c) the opponent (CFD) Butch is going up against, and d) the limitations imposed upon her.
Let's take C first.
First off, CFD is a disease that can literally take one, two, or more months to manifest. Calling it difficult to detect is a massive understatement; people who are in frank symptoms don't even necessarily know it. Secondly, acquiring CFD is not generally a random occurence. It isn't airborne; it's blood- and fluid-borne, and though it could possibly be contact-borne, victims or those taken over generally have to intentionally transfer it. This makes its rapid spread a matter of guidance, of biowarfare. And it doesn't even kill a person, or make them sick in a 'standard' way; it 'only' changes their personality. Which means finding someone who is under CFD assault is a very, very difficult and chancy proposition; anyone who you might hear about are going to be a) in frank symptoms, and/or b) already mostly taken over. Which c) is gonna suck.
Second, case D. Butch is operating mostly alone, on a shoestring budget, needing to do other work as well as this to keep up her cash flow, and being hunted and needing to cut loose and burn her operation to the ground at a moment's notice. She isn't set up in a nice cushy operation where people send their CFD victims to her, and she can do things nice and by the book. Since locating victims is such a cast-iron, she needs some way to study the thing from the moment of infection onwards, and this crap just doesn't replicate in a slurry of blood and monkey kidneys, you know?
Next, situation A. What does the Shadowrun world face? It isn't exactly mass extinction; people will still be alive, they just won't be ... themselves any more. But this is a very insidious 'Rise of the Machines' that doesn't impose from the outside in, a la Terminator, but from the inside out. This is a case of viral-mechancial Body Snatchers. We won't be dead, but we won't be us any more. And because this is essentially a war of sentients, in which anyone - anyone at all - can be turned into a combatant, this is at least as bad as the UB. Worse, because it's clear once they're converted what 90% of 'the bugs' are.
Finally, B: the actions that Butch took. She infected people - I'd have to do a re-read to figure out roughly how many, but I'm sure it wasn't less than 25, and might be more than 100 - with a condition/disease that she knew wouldn't kill their bodies, but knew would destroy their personalities. Did she get their permission first? Here's the kicker on that - we don't know. I don't believe she did, however, which means that yeah, she DID as good as kill each and every one of them, as deliberately and systematically as any serial killer. Is that evil? Yes, absolutely. Is it necessary? No, not necessarily - but considering the other people researching this stuff are restricted by things like ethics and legal ramifications, she's gotten three or six times as far as anyone else in figuring this thing out.
That's fine, Wyrm, but is she a monster?
Depends on how you define 'monster'.
- She has done monstrous things; she is a monster. She is the monster we need in order to find a vaccine/cure for what is being done to 'us'.
- She feels guilt for what she has done; she is not a monster. I would give Butch about an 85-90% chance of suicide once she's found/created and seen repeated successful applications of a cure. Because she is torn up about it. But she's a woman on a mission, and bad things will be done until she succeeds in that mission.
YMMV.
Addendum.
If you really do want to compare the two - no, she isn't Mengele' reborn, just as bad as him, or whatever. She has a specific target, she doesn't enjoy the pain she inflicts, etc. etc. Has she done monstrous etc., see above.
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She feels guilt for what she has done; she is not a monster. I would give Butch about an 85-90% chance of suicide once she's found/created and seen repeated successful applications of a cure. Because she is torn up about it. But she's a woman on a mission, and bad things will be done until she succeeds in that mission.[/li][/list]
Wow, that high? I mean, I could see her having all kinds of negative repercussions, but I don't think suicide is the way she'd go out. She'd probably go out trying to help someone instead.
If you really do want to compare the two - no, she isn't Mengele' reborn, just as bad as him, or whatever. She has a specific target, she doesn't enjoy the pain she inflicts, etc. etc. Has she done monstrous etc., see above.
Yeah I agree. What she's done will someday be regarded as heroic, I think. Even if it's not going to be in her lifetime. The work that she's done, and likely will do, could potentially save the entire human race. And it'd be interesting to see if an indiscriminate threat like this might not cause a sense of unity among people that were otherwise enemies. Not that this is likely in Shadowrun's dystopia, but it's the kind of thing that might pull the world out of the sewer it's in right now. Until someone decides that CFD personalities need rights too. Then it's all going to hell.
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All due respect, Wyrm, I did not make the comparison to Mengele, and I'm not the one who continues to insist that it is a fair comparison.
I'll continue to oppose the view posed by Prometheus until he sees the errors of his ways, simply because I think it is important to highlight just how horrific the actions perpetrated by people like Mengele really were.
If it isn't clear to some of you how close to the heart this subject material is to people such as myself, I'd strongly encourage a class on the Holocaust, as well as one on sensitivity in general.
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I would personally kill several dozen people to save hundreds of millions. Anybody who would rather let the hundreds of millions die is, in my opinion, the damaged one.
Maybe I'm a callous bitch, but this is my outlook. This is a thing that risks destroying humanity itself. If the death of 100 random people saves even just 200 people, then it's worth it. Obviously though, I would try to make sure no one I knew was one of those 100 deaths.
Really what I want to say is that I'm surprised anyone who plays Shadowrun can't appreciate the kind of morality the entire game is based on. What Butch is doing and what CFD is causing are certainly extreme examples, but a major part of the game seems to be about how you cannot just label something as "good" or "evil". Everything's made of both. The name of the game in Shadowrun is doing wrong things for the right reasons. Butch and CFD are a major example of the dire straits that can happen when things aren't so cut and dry, and while no one wants innocent people to die, sometimes it cannot be avoided.
With nothing else working, the choices were to either keep it safe, play by the book, and just hope to god that something happens and a solution is handed to you at the risk of letting millions (essentially) die, or to push the limit of humanity, cross the line and try to save everyone. Neither of those are "okay". Neither of them are what anyone wants. And anyone can say Butch went too far. But I don't think anyone can blame her for trying when nothing else was working.
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I don't see why Butch's actions should ever be regarded as heroic. Motivated by desperation - yes, useful - definitely, necessary - possibly ... but there's a long walk from there to holding it up in-setting as actions typifying a hero. At least, it is without whitewashing the process.
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I don't see why Butch's actions should ever be regarded as heroic. Motivated by desperation - yes, useful - definitely, necessary - possibly ... but there's a long walk from there to holding it up in-setting as actions typifying a hero. At least, it is without whitewashing the process.
Without a doubt. But that's something I like about the setting. Aside from a few truly larger-than-life characters, there is no "heroes". Not like out of legends or mythology. Even the best-intentioned people have had to do things that would be considered wrong. But no, Butch would never be considered heroic. At best I think she would have others who can only come close to understanding how she felt and solemnly admit that they wouldn't have been able to think of a better way, or even that in her shoes, they would have considered it. What Butch did is horrible, the best she can hope for is for others to feel the same as her; that it was necessary.
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All due respect, Wyrm, I did not make the comparison to Mengele, and I'm not the one who continues to insist that it is a fair comparison.
I'll continue to oppose the view posed by Prometheus until he sees the errors of his ways, simply because I think it is important to highlight just how horrific the actions perpetrated by people like Mengele really were.
If it isn't clear to some of you how close to the heart this subject material is to people such as myself, I'd strongly encourage a class on the Holocaust, as well as one on sensitivity in general.
Oh, that's great. Now you're going to claim to be more horrified by the holocaust than any of the rest of us?
I really don't care if you had grandparents that were there (well, I do care, that would be very sad, but it still wouldn't grant you exclusive right to comment) you're essentially claiming that you have some special relationship to the issue that gives you moral authority to comment, and any comparison anyone else makes somehow demeans the original tragedy. And obviously, anyone who disagrees with you is either ignorant, and needs to be educated on the core subject, or needs to take a sensitivity class on how to hurt your feelings, because of your special status, less?
I find that entire line of reasoning despicable. You're claiming the right to shut someone else up based upon whatever special status you claim to have (which, I cannot emphasize enough, I really do not want to hear what it is).
Mengele was a monster who ran scientific experiments on people he considered "disposable". I assure you I am aware of the details.
Butch's actions are not dissimilar. She subjected innocent people to experiments that led to their death. She didn't reach the same scale, and sure, she had better intentions. If you were the guy who got attacked by the nanite infected ghoul, and died after weeks of pain while your brain tore itself apart, I really doubt you'd care about the distinction.
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All due respect, Wyrm, I did not make the comparison to Mengele, and I'm not the one who continues to insist that it is a fair comparison.
I'll continue to oppose the view posed by Prometheus until he sees the errors of his ways, simply because I think it is important to highlight just how horrific the actions perpetrated by people like Mengele really were.
If it isn't clear to some of you how close to the heart this subject material is to people such as myself, I'd strongly encourage a class on the Holocaust, as well as one on sensitivity in general.
Oppose away, and though I'm not the first who should say this, it's obviously a hot-button topic for you, so word to the wise - take it to privacy.
I saw the TV miniseries 'Holocaust' as a first-run show; I sat on most of the classes when my mom took a Holocaust course on her way to an MSW. Some of my favorite PCs have had their roots in that hellhole, and one of them was a Mengele victim, so I did lots of research on the subject. That doesn't mean that people can't use comparisons, or have stupid ideas or opinions, or that they should be prevented from doing so. But in the case of this kind of thing, a) Fuck Sensitivity, People Need To Be Educated, Violently If Necessary, and b) it's EDUCATION you want, not blowing an off-key cheap tin horn.
So educate. All the rest of us know that Prometheus' opinion - to the extent of 'Mengele!!' - is batshit insanely stupid; we don't need the education. Get some links, throw them at him, and educate him.
Oh, that's great. Now you're going to claim to be more horrified by the holocaust than any of the rest of us?
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I find that entire line of reasoning despicable. You're claiming the right to shut someone else up based upon whatever special status you claim to have (which, I cannot emphasize enough, I really do not want to hear what it is).
Mengele was a monster who ran scientific experiments on people he considered "disposable". I assure you I am aware of the details. Butch's actions are not dissimilar. She subjected innocent people to experiments that led to their death. She didn't reach the same scale, and sure, she had better intentions. If you were the guy who got attacked by the nanite infected ghoul, and died after weeks of pain while your brain tore itself apart, I really doubt you'd care about the distinction.
Mengele ran experiments; they were as scientific as tearing one of the four wings off butterflies to see how they'll fly without them. In short, he did what he did because he thought it would be interesting to do random weird/painful/damaging shit, and see what happens; it's the actions of a bully and a tormentor given free rein as an adult. They were not scientific. They were torture to see how people survived torture, and because the torture itself was fun.
Butch's actions are scientific - but she needs subjects. She has a disease that is uniquely difficult to detect until it's in its later stages, and even at that point it's dangerous to try to experiment on its victims, because its perpetrators are targeting highly dangerous individuals as victims - ones who can fight back VERY effectively.
Butch is fighting bantamweight, while Mengele is the heavyweight champion. Making the comparison on the public boards past this point is trolling.
So both of you - go fight it out in PMs.
I for one agree generally with firebug and Tenlaar; a few dozen, or a few hundred, eggs have to be cracked in order to make sure that the egg-cracking villian can't kill a billion chicks in the egg. However, as with everything in Shadowrun, there is a price to be paid. Namikaze, yes, I think that's the end result - whether it's after failing to lose herself in alcohol or some other version of 'getting wasted' in the Shadowrun world, I honestly don't think she'll be able to live with herself after the cure is found and being used. She's a physician, she's having issues now with what she's doing, but she's steeling herself against it and pushing through her own problems to Get The Job Done.
Once the job is done, though ... to complete her story in a proper SR manner, suicide it is.
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All due respect, Wyrm, I did not make the comparison to Mengele, and I'm not the one who continues to insist that it is a fair comparison.
I'll continue to oppose the view posed by Prometheus until he sees the errors of his ways, simply because I think it is important to highlight just how horrific the actions perpetrated by people like Mengele really were.
If it isn't clear to some of you how close to the heart this subject material is to people such as myself, I'd strongly encourage a class on the Holocaust, as well as one on sensitivity in general.
Oh, that's great. Now you're going to claim to be more horrified by the holocaust than any of the rest of us?
Now who's puttting words in other people's mouths. I never said any such thing.
I really don't care if you had grandparents that were there (well, I do care, that would be very sad, but it still wouldn't grant you exclusive right to comment) you're essentially claiming that you have some special relationship to the issue that gives you moral authority to comment, and any comparison anyone else makes somehow demeans the original tragedy. And obviously, anyone who disagrees with you is either ignorant, and needs to be educated on the core subject, or needs to take a sensitivity class on how to hurt your feelings, because of your special status, less?
Again, wild conjecture. I never claimed anything of what you're trying to twist my words into.
I find that entire line of reasoning despicable. You're claiming the right to shut someone else up based upon whatever special status you claim to have (which, I cannot emphasize enough, I really do not want to hear what it is
Once again, entirely fallacious. I'm not attempting to censor you or anyone else.
Mengele was a monster who ran scientific experiments on people he considered "disposable". I assure you I am aware of the details.
Butch's actions are not dissimilar. She subjected innocent people to experiments that led to their death. She didn't reach the same scale, and sure, she had better intentions. If you were the guy who got attacked by the nanite infected ghoul, and died after weeks of pain while your brain tore itself apart, I really doubt you'd care about the distinction.
I'm glad you're starting to come to your senses. Except you fail to grasp just how horrific Mengeles experiments really were. There was no sense or reason for his actions beyond Mengeles own twisted desires, no redeeming factor to his grotesque acts what so ever.
Your comparison bears absolutely no compelling arguments as far as I'm concerned. You are of course free to belive what you will, just as I am allowed to vehemently disagree.
Edit:
Wyrm, your point is received, loud and clear.
Thank you for posting in such a clear and concise manner
I am now done with this topic.
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Mengele ran experiments; they were as scientific as tearing one of the four wings off butterflies to see how they'll fly without them.
That is not actually, in and of itself, unscientific. In fact, I'm sure that exact experiment has been done, by actual scientists.
I'm not going to claim everything Mengele did was scientific. Some of it was just because he a sadistic psychopath, and REALLY hated jews. Probably the most deaths were caused by really drastic quarantine measures against typhus and the like. But some of the awful things he did were pretty clearly scientific -- like if one of a pair of twins died of a disease, he'd kill the other so he could study the organs side by side. That's very scientific.
Point is, nothing prevents something form being unethical an immoral, and still being scientific.
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None of us have said that what Butch has done was either moral or ethical. As firebug has said, doing the unethical and immoral thing for the right reason and for the right result is a large percentage of what Shadowrun is about. Neither you nor anyone else should be shocked by this - or, really, surprised that the sixty or so people who make up Jackpoint, almost all of them criminals of one bent or another, some of whom have done colossally violent and criminal things and killed hundreds just to get one person out of a POW camp, have little to no frickin' problem with Butch gritting her teeth and doing what needs to be done as fast and dirty as it needs to be done to a few score in order to get information that will save hundreds, thousands, and yes, maybe even millions of lives.
But you're comparing a cook fire lit by a careful camper to a pyromaniac torching a high-rise apartment building. They're both hot, they both use fire, but the degree and the purpose to which they're pursued is on a vastly different scale. Feel free to keep the parallel - but in your head, please. Or in PMs with martinchaen. Because it is no longer appropriate here.
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You're right that the scales are different.
But the very largest chemical explosions have about the same scale as the smallest nuclear explosions.....but do the smallest nuclear explosions have more in common with a similar yield chemical explosions, or with the larger nuclear explosions that can be thousands of times larger? Point being that the scale is not necessarily as important as the nature.
Anyway, I don't really appreciate the attempt at censorship -- It feels plenty appropriate and I don't feel obligated to keep it private. No one is making you read it.
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I think Butch is infected. I think that's why she had such an "accelerated" testing plan for CFD.
Is she a monster? Sure, but who isn't. The best part of cyberpunk and dystopian settings is that line. At what point do you become the monster that you fight? Has Butch crossed that line? Yes. Is it worth it? Not yet. Will it be worth it? We'll have to wait and see.
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That she might be infected occured to me too....it would explain a lot.
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I'm glad you're starting to come to your senses. Except you fail to grasp just how horrific Mengeles experiments really were. There was no sense or reason for his actions beyond Mengeles own twisted desires, no redeeming factor to his grotesque acts what so ever.
Come to my senses on what? I haven't changed my opinion on anything. What, are you trying to say I wasn't saying Mengele was a monster before?
As I said, there was reason to quite a few of his experiments. Just because they were grotesque, doesn't mean they had no sense or reason. That's kinda the point -- the fact that it was scientific doesn't make it OK. Just like Butch. If you belittle the Devil by calling him stupid, you're only fooling yourself.
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But you're comparing a cook fire lit by a careful camper to a pyromaniac torching a high-rise apartment building. They're both hot, they both use fire, but the degree and the purpose to which they're pursued is on a vastly different scale. Feel free to keep the parallel - but in your head, please. Or in PMs with martinchaen. Because it is no longer appropriate here.
Agree 100%. This is a great analogy of the comparison.
Anyway, I don't really appreciate the attempt at censorship -- It feels plenty appropriate and I don't feel obligated to keep it private. No one is making you read it.
In case you haven't realized it yet, this is not just a hot-button issue, but a personal one. For several of us here. If you can't respect that, then you're the one with the problem.
The fact that you chose to compare a fictional character to a real-life one that seriously caused irreparable damage to hundreds and thousands of people seems to show that you aren't capable of predicting the effects of your actions. The fact that you have done this multiple times on these boards proves it. The eternal optimist in me hopes that you will see that what you are doing is hurtful. Even if you don't understand why it's hurtful, it should be pretty obvious by now that it is hurtful. So please show a shred of respect and decency, and either change the comparison or close the thread.
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In case you haven't realized it yet, this is not just a hot-button issue, but a personal one. For several of us here. If you can't respect that, then you're the one with the problem.
Oh, HELL no. Same lecture I gave martinchaen. No one gets some special permission, or special right to discuss an issue that others don't. The fact that one was real and the other fictional isn't important, in fact, since the whole point is to compare the fictional character to a well known example, you choices are pretty much a real historical example, or some universally known fictional example.
I used Mengele as an example because I felt the comparison was apt. What other figure murdered large numbers of people in the name of "science"? Note that comparable is not the same as equivalency. Regardless, no one is making you agree with the comparison, that's part of the discussion. But you don't get to say I can't make the comparison at all, just because someone might find it hurtful. Feelings don't dictate truth.
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I used Mengele as an example because I felt the comparison was apt. What other figure murdered large numbers of people in the name of "science"? Note that comparable is not the same as equivalency. Regardless, no one is making you agree with the comparison, that's part of the discussion. But you don't get to say I can't make the comparison at all, just because someone might find it hurtful. Feelings don't dictate truth.
You're right that the scales are different.
But the very largest chemical explosions have about the same scale as the smallest nuclear explosions.....but do the smallest nuclear explosions have more in common with a similar yield chemical explosions, or with the larger nuclear explosions that can be thousands of times larger? Point being that the scale is not necessarily as important as the nature.
As I said, there was reason to quite a few of his experiments. Just because they were grotesque, doesn't mean they had no sense or reason. That's kinda the point -- the fact that it was scientific doesn't make it OK. Just like Butch. If you belittle the Devil by calling him stupid, you're only fooling yourself.
I stacked these together, because they're essentially all the same angle on the question, which would be best phrased such: "are the experiments conducted by Butch equivalent to the experiments conducted by Josef Mengele?" Mengele's experiments 'had sense and reason', in a foggy way, yes - though none of them were connected to each other. He had no real direction to his so-called 'research'. Butch's experiments, while illegal, immoral, and unethical, have definite direction, are definitely limited in scope, and are very, very specific: Cure CFD.
So to answer all of the above, no, the nature of her experiments do not have the same nature as those performed by Mengele.
Two minutes review of Mengele's experiments should have informed you of this.
Oh, HELL no. Same lecture I gave martinchaen. No one gets some special permission, or special right to discuss an issue that others don't.
Anyway, I don't really appreciate the attempt at censorship -- It feels plenty appropriate and I don't feel obligated to keep it private. No one is making you read it.
Here's the thing - this is not an attempt at censorship. The question you posed has been answered - and not once, and not in one form, but several times, in several forms, by several different people. And yet you are continuing to pursue the question, despite clear parallels.
What this is now looking like is not an expression of horror at what we have all agreed upon - unethical, immoral experiments by Butch - but more of a declaration that the 'experiments' conducted by Josef Mengele had redeeming social and scientific value, because since Butch's experiments do, you continuing to try to tie the two together is starting to look like a patently transparent attempt to state that Mengele's were as well.
So my question now is this: Are you trying to be an apologist for Mengele's experiments? Are they misunderstood, not all that bad?
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I'm just going to address the last point....no, I'm not an apologist in any way for Mengele. Nor should anything I have written have made you think so.
I think there's a lot of people here (and everywhere) trying to say nothing Mengele did had any scientific value, because that makes it easier vilefy him....but that's kinda uneccessary, as he's already completely vilifiable.
Indeed, that's the whole point -- regardless of how much sense and reason Mengele's experiments had, a lot or a little, none of that makes any of it less vile. Someone early on stated "it would all be forgiven if he had cured cancer" -- no it wouldn't. It would still be just as monstrous, just as disgusting. THAT REALLY IS THE POINT. What if everything Mengele did was dedicated to curing cancer? Would that have made it better? No, it wouldn't, not at all.
Just like Butch.
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Thread locked, warnings and bans handed out. Hope you all had fun!