[martinchaen]

You people are way too hung up on Mengele.

So, you start a topic comparing Butch, a fictional SR character, to Josef Mengele, a very real person who committed atrocious acts against other very real people, and you have the gall to call US "hung up"?

You made the comparison. You chose to turn the argument around when faced with the realization that perhaps your analogy was out of line. You continue to display a level of insensitivity that I find, quite frankly, astonishing, by trivializing your own stance instead of apologizing for making it in the first place.

Have a nice day.

[Sendaz]

To take this even further back - if the neanderthals had not wiped out the cromagnons, we wouldn't exist.  Do we mourn the devastation of the cromagnons?  Not a whit.

Umm... Nami? 

In most parts Cro Magnons won, or at least they were still around after the Neanderthals went extinct (or absorbed as some theorized).

Now you are gonna have to bring your family album out because I am curious......

[Sengir]

Even today, you know how they test a vaccine for something like Anthrax? They take a bunch of people, give them the vaccine (and some of them get a placebo, because you need a control group) and intentionally expose them to Anthrax.

No, you don't. Exposing human subjects to a pathogen which would kill 90% of the control group and potentially even the trial group would be exactly what Mengele did, and accordingly would result in the same treatment as other war criminals.  Vaccines and treatments are tested on populations which are naturally exposed to a pathogen, but intentionally infecting people is simply out.

You know how we found out that HIV was spread through more than just gay people having sex? People went out and did studies. And some of those studies involved things like exposure to infected bodily fluids, or exposure to the same air to see if it was airborne, and so on.

Bullshit. Really, before making statements about some of the most sensitive areas of medical research, do some research yourself.

Yes, Butch has gone down the deep end, Whether this is just another case of Jackpointers acting out of character or intentionally remains to be seen, but in both cases, the suggested procedure remains the same...

[Sir_Prometheus]

You people are way too hung up on Mengele.

So, you start a topic comparing Butch, a fictional SR character, to Josef Mengele, a very real person who committed atrocious acts against other very real people, and you have the gall to call US "hung up"?

You made the comparison. You chose to turn the argument around when faced with the realization that perhaps your analogy was out of line. You continue to display a level of insensitivity that I find, quite frankly, astonishing, by trivializing your own stance instead of apologizing for making it in the first place.

Have a nice day.

A)  What part of "that's not what I wanted to talk about" didn't you understand?

B) What, you can't compare fictional and real people now?  If shadowrun had some charismatic racist that sent millions of people to death camps, you couldn't compare them to hitler?  What if instead of killing 6 million, he only killed 1 million, does that all of sudden make it somehow wrong to make the comparison?

C) I in no way think the comparison was out of line, don't put words in my mouth. 

D) I honestly think you just like to start fights.  I haven't been insensitive about anything.  I mentioned a real-world monster who did monstrous things, and you seem think that gives you license to be offended and indignant. 

  To carry forward the Mengele analogy, if Mengele had stumbled upon the cure to cancer, or found some way to take humanity to the next step in evolution, I don't know how many people would care about the methods used 80 years later. 

No, I don't think if he had cured cancer that would have changed anything.  Everything he did would still be monstrous.  If I recall, a lot of his experiments had real scientific merit.......they were still awful.  Kinda my whole point, really.  Butch's experiments definitely had scientific merit.  But she killed what, at least several dozen (presumably innocent) people? 

[Tenlaar]

I would personally kill several dozen people to save hundreds of millions.  Anybody who would rather let the hundreds of millions die is, in my opinion, the damaged one.

[Namikaze]

Umm... Nami? 

In most parts Cro Magnons won, or at least they were still around after the Neanderthals went extinct (or absorbed as some theorized).

Now you are gonna have to bring your family album out because I am curious......

BAH!  I got it backward.    Though my brother certainly seems pretty damn caveman-ish.

No, I don't think if he had cured cancer that would have changed anything.  Everything he did would still be monstrous.  If I recall, a lot of his experiments had real scientific merit.......they were still awful.  Kinda my whole point, really.

My point is that in the long run, history doesn't care about monstrosity.  We exist solely because of the largest genocide of human-ish peoples in the history of the world.

[martinchaen]

If I recall, a lot of [Mengele's] experiments had real scientific merit......

Proving rather unequivocally that you have no idea what you're talking about. That you can even make such a statement simply goes to show that your initial argument had zero merit.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Sir_Prometheus]

If I recall, a lot of [Mengele's] experiments had real scientific merit......

Proving rather unequivocally that you have no idea what you're talking about. That you can even make such a statement simply goes to show that your initial argument had zero merit.

Thank you for proving my point.

You've proved nothing, you're just being disruptive.  But if that means you're going to move along, that's appreciated. 

[martinchaen]

I didn't need to prove anything, Prometheus, you did that quite well yourself.

And if you think someone wanting to dismiss the so-called "research" of a madman like Mengele qualifies as "being disruptive" I will happily keep calling you out on it, because what that man did was nothing short of inhuman.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Prove what, how?  All you're doing is acting indignant without cause. You're not disruptive because you hate Mengele, everyone hates Mengele, you're disruptive because literally searching for stuff to be offended and have a fight about.

Please stop and let us go back to discussing stolen souls.

[martinchaen]

Butch ≠ Mengele

That was the point I was making. That is the point you yourself have proven by virtue of changing the thread subject and redacting your original post, even if you continually refuse to admit as much, for reasons unknown.

Yes, Butch performed experiments that were of questionable ethical and moral fiber, both by our standard and of that of Shadowrun's fictional setting, but she is no worse (one might even argue far less so) than the megacorps who routinely show their lack of morality by such acts as dissecting the goblinized, the Infected, Awakened and Emerged, all in the name of "science", and their ruthless dedication to fiscal gains through complete and utter lack of regard for anyone or anything.

At least Butch had an overarching goal that included what she regards as the best interest of (meta)humanity, and I think Butch knows full well that she's forever lost something of herself with her whole Exitus Acta Probat attitude and methodology. Judging by the other people who've replied, it seems like this is a fairly common perception.

[Sir_Prometheus]

You don't have a point. 

I changed the title because I did not want to spend half the thread talking about Mengele, not because I don't think the comparison is apt, quite the contrary.  (also, nothing was redacted, use words properly, please)

You have both made that action useless, and at least twice claimed that meant I was admitting an error, despite me repeatedly telling you otherwise.   

So, I'm changing it back, just for you. 

[martinchaen]

Bravo.

Your attempt at antagonizing me changes nothing; Butch still is nothing like Josef Mengele in my opinion.

Edit:
Why even create a thread comparing Butch to Mengele if you didn't want to talk about him? Understanding who he was and what he did is essential to your comparison, and you have utterly failed at this by claiming "most" of his research was scientifically valid, when even just two minutes on Google clearly indicates that everything that man did in the concentration camps was pseudoscience at best, and utterly reprehensible, inhuman torture at worst.

My point still stands. I can't say the same for yours, as you've provided absolutely no evidence beyond "because I think so" for why the comparison is even remotely valid.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Grow up about the Mengele' shit, people.  Drop it; get back to the question.

Is it evil, what she's doing?  For a certain definition of evil, yes; for black-and-white, yes, absolutely.  Everyone else is focussed on bits and bobs, though, and they're really really not looking at the real issues that a) the SR world faces in this, b) the actions taken, c) the opponent (CFD) Butch is going up against, and d) the limitations imposed upon her.

Let's take C first.

First off, CFD is a disease that can literally take one, two, or more months to manifest.  Calling it difficult to detect is a massive understatement; people who are in frank symptoms don't even necessarily know it.  Secondly, acquiring CFD is not generally a random occurence.  It isn't airborne; it's blood- and fluid-borne, and though it could possibly be contact-borne, victims or those taken over generally have to intentionally transfer it.  This makes its rapid spread a matter of guidance, of biowarfare.  And it doesn't even kill a person, or make them sick in a 'standard' way; it 'only' changes their personality.  Which means finding someone who is under CFD assault is a very, very difficult and chancy proposition; anyone who you might hear about are going to be a) in frank symptoms, and/or b) already mostly taken over.  Which c) is gonna suck.

Second, case D.  Butch is operating mostly alone, on a shoestring budget, needing to do other work as well as this to keep up her cash flow, and being hunted and needing to cut loose and burn her operation to the ground at a moment's notice.  She isn't set up in a nice cushy operation where people send their CFD victims to her, and she can do things nice and by the book.  Since locating victims is such a cast-iron, she needs some way to study the thing from the moment of infection onwards, and this crap just doesn't replicate in a slurry of blood and monkey kidneys, you know?

Next, situation A.  What does the Shadowrun world face?  It isn't exactly mass extinction; people will still be alive, they just won't be ... themselves any more.  But this is a very insidious 'Rise of the Machines' that doesn't impose from the outside in, a la Terminator, but from the inside out.  This is a case of viral-mechancial Body Snatchers.  We won't be dead, but we won't be us any more.  And because this is essentially a war of sentients, in which anyone - anyone at all - can be turned into a combatant, this is at least as bad as the UB.  Worse, because it's clear once they're converted what 90% of 'the bugs' are.

Finally, B: the actions that Butch took.  She infected people - I'd have to do a re-read to figure out roughly how many, but I'm sure it wasn't less than 25, and might be more than 100 - with a condition/disease that she knew wouldn't kill their bodies, but knew would destroy their personalities.  Did she get their permission first?  Here's the kicker on that - we don't know.  I don't believe she did, however, which means that yeah, she DID as good as kill each and every one of them, as deliberately and systematically as any serial killer.  Is that evil?  Yes, absolutely.  Is it necessary?  No, not necessarily - but considering the other people researching this stuff are restricted by things like ethics and legal ramifications, she's gotten three or six times as far as anyone else in figuring this thing out.

That's fine, Wyrm, but is she a monster?

Depends on how you define 'monster'.

• She has done monstrous things; she is a monster.  She is the monster we need in order to find a vaccine/cure for what is being done to 'us'.
• She feels guilt for what she has done; she is not a monster.  I would give Butch about an 85-90% chance of suicide once she's found/created and seen repeated successful applications of a cure.  Because she is torn up about it. But she's a woman on a mission, and bad things will be done until she succeeds in that mission.

YMMV.
Addendum.

If you really do want to compare the two - no, she isn't Mengele' reborn, just as bad as him, or whatever.  She has a specific target, she doesn't enjoy the pain she inflicts, etc. etc.  Has she done monstrous etc., see above.

[Namikaze]

She feels guilt for what she has done; she is not a monster.  I would give Butch about an 85-90% chance of suicide once she's found/created and seen repeated successful applications of a cure.  Because she is torn up about it. But she's a woman on a mission, and bad things will be done until she succeeds in that mission.[/li][/list]

Wow, that high?  I mean, I could see her having all kinds of negative repercussions, but I don't think suicide is the way she'd go out.  She'd probably go out trying to help someone instead.

If you really do want to compare the two - no, she isn't Mengele' reborn, just as bad as him, or whatever.  She has a specific target, she doesn't enjoy the pain she inflicts, etc. etc.  Has she done monstrous etc., see above.

Yeah I agree.  What she's done will someday be regarded as heroic, I think.  Even if it's not going to be in her lifetime.  The work that she's done, and likely will do, could potentially save the entire human race.  And it'd be interesting to see if an indiscriminate threat like this might not cause a sense of unity among people that were otherwise enemies.  Not that this is likely in Shadowrun's dystopia, but it's the kind of thing that might pull the world out of the sewer it's in right now.  Until someone decides that CFD personalities need rights too.  Then it's all going to hell.