Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Poindexter on <07-18-14/0152:52>
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A basic cyber-whatever costs, lets say 100,000ny.
How much of that 100,000 is is actual cost of the chrome and how much is the fee the doc charges for surgery, drugs, etc?
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I don't think it could be a specific amount or even a specific percentage. It'd be very different for a lot of things. I mean, a high-end cyberarm that's very customized is gonna take the same amount of work as a crappier used one, and compared to other augmentations, Wired Reflexes is very invasive, since it's literally wires throughout your body, and so would cost (for surgery costs) more than just an arm no matter what grade either of them are.
It'd prettymuch be a different, unrelated-to-the-price amount for every kind of augmentation, so it's really impossible to give a real answer.
I can only say that I'm pretty sure it's some amount, since I think it's implied that the installation costs are included in buying the 'ware. Just an abstraction for the sake of simplicity.
And keep in mind, it's not composed of just "price of materials + price of surgery". There's an unknown factor in there that's the amount of profit people selling it are making.
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Cyber Material Cost + Surgical Materials expended + Surgical Room overhead & equipment use + Insurance, Security & Other business overhead + Doc's time & effort + Profit = Cost of the implant.
I would imagine that the materials costs are actually a relatively small percentage, considering that all but used cyberware is custom made. You're mostly paying for better parts and more sophisticated surgical equipment/materials when you buy a higher grade. This also means that a considerable amount of expertise goes into sizing and tailoring the implant to your body. Sure, software can do a lot for calculating the human metrics, but that too costs money.
Cyberlimbs would mean more expensive parts since body parts are being replaced and not just augmented.
Talking hypotheticals, I would have Cyberlimbs cost 25% and other cyberware cost 10% for actual parts. Although the medical equipment for the installation would make up the difference in price... that can be hugely expensive (even the cost for a 'facility' doesn't quite cover it). I rarely deal with 'selling cyber'. Instead, for most implants, we take a modular approach and allow them to be upgraded to a better rating. After all, who's gonna want to buy your used Orthoskin? And wouldn't that kill you to have all your flesh cut off and replaced?
Wait. I just realized I own a copy of Bullets & Bandages. I don't have time to look it over, but I'm sure it says in there somewhere.
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The Team I'm hosting for runs a clinic, so I gave them a 20% discount on standard and alpha ware.
Figured 20% profit (materials are probably 30 - 50% of the cost)
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A very profitable surgery center in 2014 will have a margin of 40%+. Mid-range (in terms of profitability, not skill) surgery centers fall between 20 and 40 percent. Obviously, a lot more goes into all this than how much they charge you/your insurance for an ocular implant, but figure that's a guideline.
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The reason i ask is cause in a game im running, the johnson is a street doc and is offering half off her services for a year as part of the payment.
During the meet, one of the players says, "I assume that doesn't cover chrome, right?"
and my first instinct was to agree, but then i started thinking about it. Some doctor has to install that chrome and they gotta charge something to do it, right? So yeah, the doc could totally do a half off on their surgery fee, but then i realized i had NO clue what that would be.
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Interesting.
I haven't gotten to play him much yet, but I actually made a character who is a (mundane) Street Doc (Former HTR ride-along doctor so he's used to the fieldwork and somewhat surviable) concept. I hadn't even thought about the ability to install for the team - just thought about usefulness as a combat medic and for research/legwork.
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I've got a 5th Edition character sitting around as well, a troll doc (with a real college degree!) who's capable of creating, programming, and installing 'ware, on top of his normal medical skills. He's more of an NPC given his skill-set, but I'd love to use him sometime. Especially his fancy Bulldog van with the back converted into a medical suite. His whole attitude backs up his skill, too; the idea is that he went to the shadows because he was getting discriminated against in the medical field, pretty much throwing away his past like it was trash (except said college degree. He had it turned into a hankie).
Doctors and the like are VERY useful people to know/be; the problem with playing skilled one, however, is the 'why'; why, when you can get paid to just be a doctor, would you become a 'runner instead? I mean, a properly kitted and reputable street-doc can probably pull similar figures.
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The reason i ask is cause in a game im running, the johnson is a street doc and is offering half off her services for a year as part of the payment.
During the meet, one of the players says, "I assume that doesn't cover chrome, right?"
Maybe give a discount on chrome? Less so than the services. Or it may just be easier to say 10-20% off services and call it good. From a game mechanic perspective just take whatever percent you guys settle on off the top of whatever your buying. Too much math otherwise(just my opinion there)!
Other services they might be interested would be Docwagon contracts, getting stitched up/fixed up, medical related gear, "legitimate" medical papers etc.
Street docs know a lot of people on the street - a lot of biz comes through their doors from the shadows - just having them as a contact can be pretty helpful! :)
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yeah, the doc in questions actually IS a contact of two of the players.
They were a bit surprised to get to the meet and find that they already knew the johnson on a first name basis, then had to act like they didn't.
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10-20% off chrome isn't a bad idea, if you think your street Sams need the help. Consider it a balancing factor.
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It varies. SR3 had installation rules, and within those rules, physician costs were not part of the 'ware expense.
Generally, though, I'd say 10% for bodyware, 20% for senseware and reaction improvements, and 25% for headware. Applicable to bio- and cyberware both.
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It varies. SR3 had installation rules, and within those rules, physician costs were not part of the 'ware expense.
Generally, though, I'd say 10% for bodyware, 20% for senseware and reaction improvements, and 25% for headware. Applicable to bio- and cyberware both.
i think im gonna lean toward a very similar scale.
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I haven't gotten to play him much yet, but I actually made a character who is a (mundane) Street Doc (Former HTR ride-along doctor so he's used to the fieldwork and somewhat surviable) concept. I hadn't even thought about the ability to install for the team - just thought about usefulness as a combat medic and for research/legwork.
I've got a 5th Edition character sitting around as well, a troll doc (with a real college degree!) who's capable of creating, programming, and installing 'ware, on top of his normal medical skills.
That's CRAZY!
as it turns out, I've also made myself a troll dr in 5th ed, also with a real degree. More on the drug side of the field than the chrome side of it though.
DUDE.
Someone needs to run a game where ALL the pcs are medical doctors in some fashion or another. Don't run it like a medical game or nothin, regular ol shadowrun, it just coincidentally works out that everyone on this particular team HAPPENS to be a doctor.
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It'd be interesting. He's actually got some good intimidation and unarmed combat- worked as a bouncer to get his way through college. Longarms is from realizing fists can't always get the job done (a troll sized automatic shotgun loaded with stick-n-shock to ignore armor is fun).
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How much is the cut for the doc? Let's see...
How much can they trust said doc to not kill them and sell their organs if underpaid?
Or, more to the point, how does their negotiation skill compare with the doc's?
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How much is the cut for the doc? Let's see...
How much can they trust said doc to not kill them and sell their organs if underpaid?
Or, more to the point, how does their negotiation skill compare with the doc's?
That... Doesn't really help with the question, because the assumption off the top here is that the doc's cut is already part of the 'ware prices, rather than being negotiated on the side.
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How much is the cut for the doc? Let's see...
How much can they trust said doc to not kill them and sell their organs if underpaid?
Or, more to the point, how does their negotiation skill compare with the doc's?
That... Doesn't really help with the question, because the assumption off the top here is that the doc's cut is already part of the 'ware prices, rather than being negotiated on the side.
If they were getting the installation at a legitimate facility, I suppose.
Otherwise, why the hell would I assume that?
They're Shadowrunners. Illegal. The ability to find a street doc who has both the ability and supplies to do it AND the ability to actually trust that person to not cut you apart for spare parts because they happen to be feeling like you've underpaid them shouldn't be so easy - at least to my mind.
The player who is the decker for my group decided (after being squeamish about the concept of cyberware in his head during creation) to finally get a datajack to help him out. He had very low charisma, and thus just had a fixer (given) and a Mafia Lieutenant (purchased) in his contacts.
He had to get it through the Street Samurai, who only had the doc at one loyalty. He decided to pay double. It not only got his datajack installed safely, it got him the doc as a contact with 2 loyalty.
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That... Doesn't really help with the question, because the assumption off the top here is that the doc's cut is already part of the 'ware prices, rather than being negotiated on the side.
If they were getting the installation at a legitimate facility, I suppose.
Otherwise, why the hell would I assume that?
Because that was the question asked at the get-go?
A basic cyber-whatever costs, lets say 100,000ny.
How much of that 100,000 is is actual cost of the chrome and how much is the fee the doc charges for surgery, drugs, etc?
Your negotiation and all will play a part in getting the gear at all, or at your standard prices - or even at your over-the-top 400% prices. In previous editions, you had to pay a base amount equivalent to the gear price multiplied by the Street Index, which I really did like; in certain areas, certain things were especially difficult to get, or some things were just very, very expensive to acquire illegally.
Saying 'how much do you trust the doc/how good is your negotiation' is also a null question in part because the reason for the question has to do with 'half-off service fees', and Poindexter is trying to determine how much of standard chrome prices IS that 'service fee'. Other posters are curious because it's their own characters that are getting that amount. So again, your response is a non-response, because we're talking hard numbers, not 'who do you trust cutting up your head, baby, who do you trust?'
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Fine. Forget it. I was never involved in this discussion that I failed to understand.
My apologies.
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Otherwise, why the hell would I assume that?
Because (a) that's the premise of the thread, and (b) anything else horrifically screws over tech-centric characters?
Oh, and finding someone to do the install without screwing you over? Part of the damn availability test, which is where that whole "paying double" thing would have come in.
And the prices we have are the base prices for shadowrunners to get ahold of it (because, you know, the book assumes Shadowrun players playing shadowrunners), so it makes no sense to then add a "runner tax" on top of that...