Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: LionofPerth on <08-30-14/1024:01>
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Greetings all
As I'm about to start a quite story heavy Shadowrun campaign, I've got a few players still working on their characters. One of them is set on a troll sam as their character.
I've given them a warning about rascism, saying that trolls and orcs face pretty severe rascism, compared to elves and dwarves.
In short, of my cast of NPC's, I have a number of people who will react badly to them. One will not deal with them at all. End of statement. In her case, she dislikes trolls so much she doesn't see anything wrong with turning the tips of the last trolls horns into earrings for her to wear. Mind you, said troll also cost her an arm in the attack. Still, nasty we can agree.
Other parts do include possible lynchings, not lethal, but certainly painful, they're going to be facing a lot of scrutiny from Lone Star, Knight Errant, even with a legal SIN, they will get stopped and pulled in on a regular basis. Any cyberwear they have will be scanned and checked every time they pass through a major border. Any sort of bioware gets detected, things will get interesting for them.
How far have you guys taken rascism? Do you think I will be taking it too far? Not far enough?
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Doesn't Seattle 2072 mention Knight Errant is aiming for a better image when it comes to racism than Lone Star had? One of the main NPCs in season 4 is a 10-foot KE troll, after all. Sure, there's plenty of racists, but you're more likely to get heat from the cops over being Awakened than for being a troll or orc, so I think you're taking things too far - farther than the source material supports, at least.
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I'm personally not that big of a fan of that level of discrimination unless race relations happen to be an important part of the story you're telling. If it's just a rider to the main story, I probably wouldn't be a fan.
With that said, as long as you have basically taken these passages:
In short, of my cast of NPC's, I have a number of people who will react badly to them. One will not deal with them at all. End of statement. In her case, she dislikes trolls so much she doesn't see anything wrong with turning the tips of the last trolls horns into earrings for her to wear. Mind you, said troll also cost her an arm in the attack. Still, nasty we can agree.
Other parts do include possible lynchings, not lethal, but certainly painful, they're going to be facing a lot of scrutiny from Lone Star, Knight Errant, even with a legal SIN, they will get stopped and pulled in on a regular basis. Any cyberwear they have will be scanned and checked every time they pass through a major border. Any sort of bioware gets detected, things will get interesting for them.
...and distilled it in a way that is explainable to the PCs that are planning on playing those races, I think you're okay. Your idea of "pretty severe racism" and their idea might be different, so it's probably better for them to have an informed opinion before they settle.
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I personally think it sounds interesting, provided you do what Jack suggests, and make sure they understand the ramifications. Be blunt about it too; there'll be fewer regrets if you flat out tell them there are people out there who collect tusks or ears as trophies. In a homebrew game I'm in, the GM explained that being not-human in human-controlled areas (pretty much 75% of the landmass on the map) will get you targeted pretty bad. To the degree that halflings live like gypsies (complete with stereotypes of being thieves, which our party member doesn't always help with), the 'gnomes' of the setting are nearly extinct, dwarfs in human lands are a bit like historical Jews (in their homelands they're more dwarfy), orcs are flat-out murdered south of the tundra because everyone 'knows' they're murderous apes, etc. Of course, I chose to play an elf, complete with an Animal Magnetism-esque Quality. Being chased out of town because the local wives and daughters were staring too long (or worse) has happened a time or two. Or, him being arrested and charged with murder for trying to save a sick person with his herblore ('magic' is frowned upon; the big inspirations for this setting are primarily historical Europe, Lord of the Rings, and Elric of Melnibone, with some Witcher and Black Company thrown in for flavor).
Something to always throw in occasionally, if racism is a factor in your Shadowrun game's culture, is old-school pigment-based racism. Every racist in Shadowrun despises the stupid trogs and hate the worthless dandelion eaters or think all the little breeders should go screw themselves, but nobody expects the KKK (or maybe they do, I guess)!
Also, now I have the horribly hilarious idea of the Perfect Aryan Troll.
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As long as you're not doing it as a kind of "pocket nerf" for characters because of their combat abilities, I think that's a pretty standard/mild use of racism in a game. In our present campaign I have a Harumen, and personally I really dislike those "heightened fantasy" aspects that came with Runners Companion (free spirits, drakes, etc.) as player options - I feel they detract from the gritty cyber-punk aspect of SR that anchor it in the genre, so it's just something that I personally try to discourage at my table (but won't disallow if it's what a player really wants to play), anyway, I gave my player the exact same sort of warning when he told me about his concept. That he would likely be excluded from locations and conversations, and possibly targeted with violence (Lonestar may think it's okay to kill him, whereas on everyone else they might go S'n'S), because most people will think of him as just an awakened critter, not a human.
I wrestled with this for awhile, because I really dislike punishing players for playing something they want to play, but I determined that I dislike the idea of straight up disallowing it even less, so I try to use it to complicate the RP. I talked with him at length about it and he was okay with it too, ultimately really looking forward to it, and getting into it and using it well as a fun RP aspect of his PC.
Now, we also have a Deadlands game going (a highly racially charged setting), and our GM for that employs what I would consider severe racism. Using language and depicting acts that can actually make players uncomfortable (OOC as well as IC). We're a mature group, all good friends/know each other well enough to know where it's coming from, and all understand and participate in it in a fashion where we know it's importance to the story and in driving our hatred for our enemies, but at that level (where you're potentially making people uncomfortable) I think you have to really know your table and players well and have to be careful not to take it too far. What is too far? Depends on your table and players.
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Doesn't Seattle 2072 mention Knight Errant is aiming for a better image when it comes to racism than Lone Star had? One of the main NPCs in season 4 is a 10-foot KE troll, after all. Sure, there's plenty of racists, but you're more likely to get heat from the cops over being Awakened than for being a troll or orc, so I think you're taking things too far - farther than the source material supports, at least.
I'd have to disagree, some of the character creation material over the 4th ed times was.... suggested in my mind some very bad attitudes towards trolls, orcs. In some cases, the language really suggested that it was deserved on some level. Of course I'd say it came about from a self fulfilling prophecy, that because they're seen as criminals, they end up as criminals and the smart criminals prosper, becoming known for being successful criminals, ergo, more trolls are seen or believed to try crime as a means of gaining status, success etc. I believe some of the material from the Shadowrun 4 core book is pretty harsh towards them.
I'm personally not that big of a fan of that level of discrimination unless race relations happen to be an important part of the story you're telling. If it's just a rider to the main story, I probably wouldn't be a fan.
With that said, as long as you have basically taken these passages:
In short, of my cast of NPC's, I have a number of people who will react badly to them. One will not deal with them at all. End of statement. In her case, she dislikes trolls so much she doesn't see anything wrong with turning the tips of the last trolls horns into earrings for her to wear. Mind you, said troll also cost her an arm in the attack. Still, nasty we can agree.
Other parts do include possible lynchings, not lethal, but certainly painful, they're going to be facing a lot of scrutiny from Lone Star, Knight Errant, even with a legal SIN, they will get stopped and pulled in on a regular basis. Any cyberwear they have will be scanned and checked every time they pass through a major border. Any sort of bioware gets detected, things will get interesting for them.
...and distilled it in a way that is explainable to the PCs that are planning on playing those races, I think you're okay. Your idea of "pretty severe racism" and their idea might be different, so it's probably better for them to have an informed opinion before they settle.
I have been pretty clear with the group in regards to race on this front, if not saying on some level, this applies to everyone, regardless of what race they choose. Someone, somewhere, will not like them. Trolls and orcs have worn some pretty severe racism and for most, it's well deserved. Humanis is not the only group out there that has openly racist agenda.
I do plan on a little speech at the start, saying that what they are going to see are that people will be people, with all of the good and bad habits. They will have the pleasure of some people's company, the misfortune of others.
I've also made a point of saying that there's going to be down time, use it. Have a plan and do something, keep your self busy. One of my potential players wants to study magic and run their own street clinic. Another wants to be an assassin. Part of this really does tie in to what I want to do with their world, they have the chance to do some real good, build support networks and reputations for themselves as being something other than a Runner.
In my mind, also gives them something their character would do if they want to retire them, which is something I want to offer, considering how this campaign could go.
MijRai
It's not going to be every session, every second, third. It's going to come up when dealing with some NPC's,
In terms of the type of racism, I was going to try and keep it to species lines, that since dwarves and elves are the most 'human' of the metahuman types, they don't get it as bad, if they get it as bad. Orcs and trolls look the least human, most obviously not-human and so the most severe reactions.
emsquared
Running SR5 and just planning on the basic races. I was going to keep it really simple on this front, as much as I could do to keep it about the players and what they do, how they choose to do it.
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If you're planning on setting the campaign in Seattle, then you have Proposition 23 to worry about. Proposition 23 is the ruling that allowed the Ork Underground to become a full-fledged district of Seattle (with all the corporate and government oversight that comes with it). There are lots of people on both sides of the border who hate the proposition, but it passed in 2074, if I remember my timeline correctly. That one issue is the basis for a bunch of missions in Season 4, and also for the Splintered State mission. Racism is alive and well in Shadowrun, but it's a subject that can get way out of hand really quickly if not handled deftly.
For instance, one of my games was about a bunch of elves and such that went missing (because they were homeless, not because they were elves) - but the elven bloc of Puyallup only noticed the missing elves. It's a bit of racism from the elves that they didn't look at anyone else. It's a bit of racism on the players because they didn't look either. And ultimately, the whole thing fuels a race riot that Knight Errant sends an elven woman to be the face of the company in order to help calm people down.
What I was trying to show is that:
- homelessness isn't racist
- racism isn't limited to orks and trolls
- people will find connections tied to race in otherwise non-racially motivated behavior
In the end, it was a big push by Tamanous to get into Puyallup. Humanis was accused and even attacked, race riots began to break out all over Puyallup, etc. And the whole thing had nothing to do with race, these people (that's the key word) were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Racism can be a very effective tool; in my game sessions, the game itself was very straightforward. I used the race riots and racially-charged background to help throw the team off a little bit, and it worked. In the end, I think everyone came away with a good lesson in tolerance, and they all learned how intolerance works in the SR world.
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If you're planning on setting the campaign in Seattle, then you have Proposition 23 to worry about. Proposition 23 is the ruling that allowed the Ork Underground to become a full-fledged district of Seattle (with all the corporate and government oversight that comes with it). There are lots of people on both sides of the border who hate the proposition, but it passed in 2074, if I remember my timeline correctly. That one issue is the basis for a bunch of missions in Season 4, and also for the Splintered State mission. Racism is alive and well in Shadowrun, but it's a subject that can get way out of hand really quickly if not handled deftly.
Mostly in Washington, though there's plenty of international travel planned, I don't have to worry about Seattle at the moment, though there's a possibility if the main antagonist does get slightly derailed. That will take work on the players part. I actually expect them to get suckered in by him to be honest.
Thanks for the heads up, all the more prep time.
I was thinking of trying to play more on the subtle side, different looks. Sharp looks, think of that scene in one of the Fast and Furious movies, the people who live in the favela all pulls weapons on the cops, or is it Brian. I can't remember now. Either way, it's to be things like that and more subtle elements.
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emsquared
Running SR5 and just planning on the basic races. I was going to keep it really simple on this front, as much as I could do to keep it about the players and what they do, how they choose to do it.
Not sure if you read my post, the exact races and edition aren't important, point was I've done in the past exactly what you did here. I was validating your use of racism. Only giving context with the race and reasoning involved.
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I have to agree with Namizaki, the main thing I try to remember that racism is not limited to just humans against other species. It does go both ways. Also, racism because of species isn't the only thing out there. Stupidity isn't picky, male chauvinists, actual RACISM, sexism.....etc.
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I have to agree with Namizaki, the main thing I try to remember that racism is not limited to just humans against other species. It does go both ways. Also, racism because of species isn't the only thing out there. Stupidity isn't picky, male chauvinists, actual RACISM, sexism.....etc.
Indeed, part of the reason I have said what I have. I'll make it clear that it's handed out by everyone, if you look at a wide enough picture.
emsquared
I suspected as much, though my reply was to make sure you completely understood where I was coming from. That while you've done, seen certain things, that we're on the same page.
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Just remember the golden rule, and that's that this is a game, and games are fun. If you're going to throw that level of random vehemence against folks based on their metaspecies, make sure you're tossing them a bone every now and then, too. Make sure they get to satisfyingly beat up some Humanis thugs, make sure they get to have their own space (where they're welcome and the rest of the crew has to feel ill at ease, for a change of campaign), make sure the players are on board and enjoying themselves, instead of just taking an "I warned them, now they suffer!" type of stance.
If you're gonna focus on racism, try to keep the game enjoyable despite it. I'd, personally, shoot for Django Unchained racism, not American History X racism.
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Just remember the golden rule, and that's that this is a game, and games are fun. If you're going to throw that level of random vehemence against folks based on their metaspecies, make sure you're tossing them a bone every now and then, too. Make sure they get to satisfyingly beat up some Humanis thugs, make sure they get to have their own space (where they're welcome and the rest of the crew has to feel ill at ease, for a change of campaign), make sure the players are on board and enjoying themselves, instead of just taking an "I warned them, now they suffer!" type of stance.
If you're gonna focus on racism, try to keep the game enjoyable despite it. I'd, personally, shoot for Django Unchained racism, not American History X racism.
It's not going to be a hammer and there's a certain level of control the players should have in this area. As I've made it clear to them, there's going to be down time and plenty of it. What you do with it is up to is very much on your plate. I also keep an open inbox for players to talk to me about what's going on in the game, I try to be as open as I can be.
None the less it is present in the world, one player is going to be in for a rude surprise or two.
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I'd, personally, shoot for Django Unchained racism, not American History X racism.
Ahahahaha that's so spot on. This made me smile. :)
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Just remember the golden rule, and that's that this is a game, and games are fun. If you're going to throw that level of random vehemence against folks based on their metaspecies, make sure you're tossing them a bone every now and then, too. Make sure they get to satisfyingly beat up some Humanis thugs, make sure they get to have their own space (where they're welcome and the rest of the crew has to feel ill at ease, for a change of campaign), make sure the players are on board and enjoying themselves, instead of just taking an "I warned them, now they suffer!" type of stance.
If you're gonna focus on racism, try to keep the game enjoyable despite it. I'd, personally, shoot for Django Unchained racism, not American History X racism.
It's not going to be a hammer and there's a certain level of control the players should have in this area. As I've made it clear to them, there's going to be down time and plenty of it. What you do with it is up to is very much on your plate. I also keep an open inbox for players to talk to me about what's going on in the game, I try to be as open as I can be.
None the less it is present in the world, one player is going to be in for a rude surprise or two.
This strikes me as being very opposite-what-Critias-just-recommended. "Well, you can go anywhere you want, it's just that in all the good places, you're going to be spat on, kicked out, etc. This is fair warning, and I hope it's clear to you." Re-read his post, maybe? Make sure you have places where the racism is in the opposite direction - or, you know, there's little to no racism at all.
Racism in Shadowrun is like racism in RL - the squeaky wheel gets the grease, i.e. Westboro Baptist gets the press, while the other hundred thousand churches who promote race equality get ignored. 90+% of the people you meet should be neutral, or perhaps only slightly biased for/against a race. Sure, a human or dwarf (or elf) is gonna be a little skittish around a troll for the first time or two; who ain't, y'know? But after you get to know her, Becky turns into the Secretary, not the Troll.
Racism is a thing, and it can be a big thing. It just ain't gonna be a big thing with everyone. And if it is? Then make sure there's people who are on their side too.
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Just remember the golden rule, and that's that this is a game, and games are fun. If you're going to throw that level of random vehemence against folks based on their metaspecies, make sure you're tossing them a bone every now and then, too. Make sure they get to satisfyingly beat up some Humanis thugs, make sure they get to have their own space (where they're welcome and the rest of the crew has to feel ill at ease, for a change of campaign), make sure the players are on board and enjoying themselves, instead of just taking an "I warned them, now they suffer!" type of stance.
If you're gonna focus on racism, try to keep the game enjoyable despite it. I'd, personally, shoot for Django Unchained racism, not American History X racism.
It's not going to be a hammer and there's a certain level of control the players should have in this area. As I've made it clear to them, there's going to be down time and plenty of it. What you do with it is up to is very much on your plate. I also keep an open inbox for players to talk to me about what's going on in the game, I try to be as open as I can be.
None the less it is present in the world, one player is going to be in for a rude surprise or two.
This strikes me as being very opposite-what-Critias-just-recommended. "Well, you can go anywhere you want, it's just that in all the good places, you're going to be spat on, kicked out, etc. This is fair warning, and I hope it's clear to you." Re-read his post, maybe? Make sure you have places where the racism is in the opposite direction - or, you know, there's little to no racism at all.
Racism in Shadowrun is like racism in RL - the squeaky wheel gets the grease, i.e. Westboro Baptist gets the press, while the other hundred thousand churches who promote race equality get ignored. 90+% of the people you meet should be neutral, or perhaps only slightly biased for/against a race. Sure, a human or dwarf (or elf) is gonna be a little skittish around a troll for the first time or two; who ain't, y'know? But after you get to know her, Becky turns into the Secretary, not the Troll.
Racism is a thing, and it can be a big thing. It just ain't gonna be a big thing with everyone. And if it is? Then make sure there's people who are on their side too.
There will be plenty who are on their side or simply don't care. More in the don't care category. Of the major NPC's only one is an outspoken racist. So my figure is more like..... 5% really.
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For me most people in Shadowrun that my players will meet, might be racist, but they are also realist. They probably wouldn't let their racism show other than perhaps snide comments when the PC is "out of earshot". A more likely reaction might be fear as that is something the NPCs would be less able to control - again not professionals they meet. If a professional let personal prejudice impact their dealings, they will be less likely to be successful - Corporations wouldn't stand for that and of course they have their public image to consider.
I would also think this would be expressed at turning a blind eye toward injustice or duress on a Orc meta. With regards to fancy establishments - is the Troll in a Tux? If not I would expect the same treatment as anyone acting inappropriate - again public image is important.
In my game the effects of Racism would be more subtle, but certainly could be deadly "Oh sorry we don't have any assets we can send to help".
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In the PBP game I am running, I like the level I have achieved. Nothing overt, but it is present and factorable into equations. Racial slurs are used, usually in anger, but no one is stupid enough to talk smack to a troll in a one-on-one scenario.
I think it is an important flavor to the world, if you don't make it commonplace I would feel like the roleplay was somewhat lacking.
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There will be plenty who are on their side or simply don't care. More in the don't care category. Of the major NPC's only one is an outspoken racist. So my figure is more like..... 5% really.
Right, but the problem is that it's not just a numbers game. It doesn't matter how many are wildly racist against them, it matters who they are, right? You started this thread saying that "a number" of NPCs will be really ugly racists against orks and trolls, and you were specifically talking about a major NPC that just won't deal with trolls at all. That's great that you've fleshed out an NPC and put some thought into them, but what happens if that NPC's playing Mr. Johnson or Fixer tonight? You said she won't deal with them at all, end of statement...so is that player just not allowed to play?
"Thanks for coming, here's a slice of pizza, now go home, we'll see you next week?"
I mean, kudos for taking the meta-setting seriously. Racism's a thing in the game world, and representing it in-game is sometimes important, it can sometimes add a layer of realism to the game (inasmuch as racism against orks and stuff is 'realism'), it can add a level of dystopia to it, hit home the magical nature of the place, yadda yadda yadda. Sure.
But never, ever, forget that this is a game, and games are fun. When you lovingly craft a major NPC that will just never do anything, ever, at all, ever, for one of your players, you're basically fucking that player over, big time. Do you similarly have a major NPC that's got major Ork Underground ties that will never deal with all the humans, elves, and dwarves in your group? If so, what happens to them the night that your adventure is based around that contact?
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There will be plenty who are on their side or simply don't care. More in the don't care category. Of the major NPC's only one is an outspoken racist. So my figure is more like..... 5% really.
Right, but the problem is that it's not just a numbers game. It doesn't matter how many are wildly racist against them, it matters who they are, right? You started this thread saying that "a number" of NPCs will be really ugly racists against orks and trolls, and you were specifically talking about a major NPC that just won't deal with trolls at all. That's great that you've fleshed out an NPC and put some thought into them, but what happens if that NPC's playing Mr. Johnson or Fixer tonight? You said she won't deal with them at all, end of statement...so is that player just not allowed to play?
"Thanks for coming, here's a slice of pizza, now go home, we'll see you next week?"
I mean, kudos for taking the meta-setting seriously. Racism's a thing in the game world, and representing it in-game is sometimes important, it can sometimes add a layer of realism to the game (inasmuch as racism against orks and stuff is 'realism'), it can add a level of dystopia to it, hit home the magical nature of the place, yadda yadda yadda. Sure.
But never, ever, forget that this is a game, and games are fun. When you lovingly craft a major NPC that will just never do anything, ever, at all, ever, for one of your players, you're basically fucking that player over, big time. Do you similarly have a major NPC that's got major Ork Underground ties that will never deal with all the humans, elves, and dwarves in your group? If so, what happens to them the night that your adventure is based around that contact?
I don't believe I have. Quite simply, this game is meant to be a higher level game, I want to see players using their contact to look for jobs in their downtime. That while they are introduced to a world of higher level contacts than what they initially had, they have their own networks to rely on and use. If they're desperately chasing a job, more gear, they can use the network they bring to the game to get it.
Sure, if they want to work for this NPC in question, she will definitely prefer a non-troll point of contact. If the group doesn't want to deal with her at all, it's going to be their choice. If they want to keep her happy, they will have to work out something that will do so. This is the price for having access to her resources, assets and network. Will it be entirely nice for the troll character? Probably not, though knowing him the way I do and the attitude he takes towards role playing, it will challenge him, something he has seemed to enjoy.
Though I do want to clarify, she will only ever be their fixer if they choose her to be. She's a secondary character to the story, due to a favour she owes to the primary fixer, one of her clubs is their first meeting point. There are a number of NPC's on the list, some of which are racists, of those not all are racist towards orcs and trolls. They still are racist. It's the nature of the part of the world they are in, who they may end up dealing with. I will choose which NPC they end up dealing with by how they play. I full expect my cast of twenty, twenty five odd, to get reduced down to five, six, by the way the campaign flows, works. Ideally one major contact for each player, of which they can choose to do favours for each other by using that contact. How they pay the price, that's up to them.
In short, if they want to go into the Orc underground, yeap, they can. They need to speak to one of, four odd NPC's. Two of those think lowly of humans or elves and I don't blame them for it. I wrote them after all.
I think you're a little too caught up on how racist this particular contact is, rather than than the whole image. Though, that might be just as much on me as it is on you. I have asked some very specific questions.
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I have a racist character on my table now, an work who hates trolls and has combat junkie flaw. I tossed a mission at the team that had them defending the local church (non-denominational, pastor is a troll!) From an elf poser go gang. The real kicker was at the end, when the entire congregation wanted to shake hands, I had a six year old troll girl look at him and declare him as her hero. Player had a hilarious expression, and a point was made about choosing racism in character. Haven't yet put the boot on the other foot, but it will happen. While I have personally experienced racism, I as gm aim for the teaching/humorous side, rather than gritty. Being told you suck because of things you have no control over makes nobody's day fun, ooc or ic.
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I think that was an excellent approach to the character's racism. Put him in a situation that requires a tremendous amount of willpower, might teach the character a lesson, and will provide laughs for the players too. Kudos! Most of my players end up picking up a Bias against Infected, for whatever reason. Probably because I love to have their safehouses be on top of feral ghoul dens. But I think I'm going to give them a mission that involves saving a vampire's life. It should prove similarly enlightening.
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It was fun watching the player struggle with the response.