Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dr Adder on <10-03-14/0819:54>
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Hi,
i'm searching for a post that explains the main differences beetwen SR4 and SR5, and how to translate Characters.
We have recently bougth all the many books in SR4-20th, many hardcovered, the last in PDF, and we gonna play vintage 2nd and 3rd ed campaigns.
So i wonder if it's worth using SR5 instead of SR4-20th ?
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There is a conversion guide you can download for free. I haven't used it but it's free so how bad can it be? ;D
http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3207 (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3207)
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Don't (never ever) use the Conversion guide !!
You can ( and should) simply use the SR4A Chars ! You only have to calculate the Limits , thats all.
only Equipment has to be converted (Weapons damage x 1.5 ,add acc thats all, Armor highest Value x 1.5 thats all)
Decks and RCCs have to be introduced and 'ware (essence cost) has to be recalculated ,but thats all !
with a much more simple Dance
Medicineman
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Don't (never ever) use the Conversion guide !!
You can ( and should) simply use the SR4A Chars ! You only have to calculate the Limits , thats all.
only Equipment has to be converted (Weapons damage x 1.5 ,add acc thats all, Armor highest Value x 1.5 thats all)
Decks and RCCs have to be introduced and 'ware (essence cost) has to be recalculated ,but thats all !
with a much more simple Dance
Medicineman
And skills need to totally redone, and don't convert weapons like that. Find the 5th edition version and roll with it.
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And skills need to totally redone, and don't convert weapons like that. Find the 5th edition version and roll with it.
Especially Skills should NOT (!! ) be converted . Since Starting Skills (in SR4A as well as in 5) are topped at 6 (7 with Talented) they shouldn't be changed at all.
If You use the conversion rules You'd get Chars that start with a Skill of 8,10 or even 12.
Weapons and Armor ; Y ou could either use the stats of equivalent SR5 Weapons or raise the DV by 1.5 (f.E. You want to convert the Colt Manhunter you could use the Stats of the Ares Pred V)
with a nonconverted Dance
Medicineman
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Especially Skills should NOT (!! ) be converted . Since Starting Skills (in SR4A as well as in 5) are topped at 6 (7 with Talented) they shouldn't be changed at all.
If You use the conversion rules You'd get Chars that start with a Skill of 8,10 or even 12.
Umm...honestly, if a character had the absolute maximum rating in a skill, the character should have at least close to the new maximum after conversion. It's only fair.
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Hi,
i'm searching for a post that explains the main differences beetwen SR4 and SR5, and how to translate Characters.
We have recently bougth all the many books in SR4-20th, many hardcovered, the last in PDF, and we gonna play vintage 2nd and 3rd ed campaigns.
So i wonder if it's worth using SR5 instead of SR4-20th ?
It depends.
If someone wants to play a tweaked Rigger, that's not really possible right now. They are viable characters, but the vulnerable drones combined with lack of customization can make this real tricky.
Deckers can be done, Technomancers are complicated beasts, but if your players really want to dig into how the Matrix works, we don't have the book for that yet.
The special metavariants aren't in SR5 yet.
Leaving that aside, SR5 does have some really important changes that would lead me to suggest you use SR5.
First of all, you no longer can attack twice per Action Phase. This made balance between Street Samurais and Melee+Magic rather complicated. Now everyone gets 1 attack per IP, which also helps decrease the die-rolls needed and makes it easier to balance out the different builds. There's no need for massive-damage Melee characters anymore since they can still get a decent damage output without having to beat 2 attacks.
Defense is dual-statted now, so people actually got a shot at avoiding getting hit. In return damage has gone up significantly but so has Armor, meaning that IF hit it's more lethal. Body-limitations on Armor were removed, so mages aren't horribly squishy anymore.
Initiative got switched back to using initiative dice instead of IPs, and an Initiative-number system. This means even non-augmented characters got a shot at a second IP. It also allows for special options that cost you just a bit of Initiative, which may be harmless but also may be very dangerous, when it costs you an IP or makes you go after an enemy.
Direct combat spells aren't the main killer they were in SR4 anymore, instead they become very viable options versus targets that are either really hard to hit or have way too much damage.
Hardened Armor got changed, now a Spirit isn't either invulnerable or down in a single hit.
And last there's the introduction of limits, and the raised skillcaps. The limits are a nice punishment to munchkins, forcing them to balance their characters out more or pay a price for it. The raised skillcaps after chargen make it possible to actually vary both PCs and NPCs past the boring "everyone has either 4 or 6".
Lastly, Priority may be restrictive in the character builds, but it helps prevent choice paralysis, allowing for faster chargen.
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Especially Skills should NOT (!! ) be converted . Since Starting Skills (in SR4A as well as in 5) are topped at 6 (7 with Talented) they shouldn't be changed at all.
If You use the conversion rules You'd get Chars that start with a Skill of 8,10 or even 12.
Umm...honestly, if a character had the absolute maximum rating in a skill, the character should have at least close to the new maximum after conversion. It's only fair.
Hmmm, so one SR4A Char with a Skill of 6 gets converted to Skill 12
but his "Brother" from SR5 with a Skill of 6 stays with his Skill of 6 ?
seems not right to me
Thats why I'm against the conversion rules.
And if its a new Char he should not be converted at all but simpley remade within the new SR5 Rules.
HokaHey
Medicineman
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Especially Skills should NOT (!! ) be converted . Since Starting Skills (in SR4A as well as in 5) are topped at 6 (7 with Talented) they shouldn't be changed at all.
If You use the conversion rules You'd get Chars that start with a Skill of 8,10 or even 12.
Umm...honestly, if a character had the absolute maximum rating in a skill, the character should have at least close to the new maximum after conversion. It's only fair.
Hmmm, so one SR4A Char with a Skill of 6 gets converted to Skill 12
but his "Brother" from SR5 with a Skill of 6 stays with his Skill of 6 ?
seems not right to me
Thats why I'm against the conversion rules.
And if its a new Char he should not be converted at all but simpley remade within the new SR5 Rules.
HokaHey
Medicineman
Yes, the SR4A character with a skill of 6 should get converted to skill rating 10 (the actual converted value). This is because the conversion rules are assuming a character with such a skill rank to have gotten there through advancement rather than taking number crunching for 'efficiency' into account.
Conversion rules should not be taking into account what people who game the system do in character generation.
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This is because the conversion rules are assuming a character with such a skill rank to have gotten there through advancement rather than taking number crunching for 'efficiency' into account.
Number Crunching ?
Its quite easy to get a starting Char with a Skill of 6
There's no need to Crunch any Numbers
And the "Advancement" of a Char that starts with a Skill of 5 and Ends with a Skill of 6 ....is a mere 12 Karma
which is 1 big or 2 standard Runs (hardly any crunching too ;) )
Conversion rules should not be taking into account what people who game the system do in character generation.
Sorry, but I don't understand what You want to say :)
Hough!
Medicineman
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Conversion rules should not be taking into account what people who game the system do in character generation.
Sorry, but I don't understand what You want to say :)
Hough!
Medicineman
It's really quite simple. The players who got their skill rating to 6 through advancement should not be all that far away from the new maximum after conversion just because someone else went the 'mathematical efficiency' route when building their new character.
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OK, I think differently and I don't consider 12 Karma such a big advancement (Startskill 5 ---> Endskill 6 )
And Chars that have reached a Skill of 6 in SR4A payed the same amount of Karma as a Char from SR5 that have reached a Skill of 6.
with the same Dance
Medicineman
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OK, I think differently and I don't consider 12 Karma such a big advancement (Startskill 5 ---> Endskill 6 )
And Chars that have reached a Skill of 6 in SR4A payed the same amount of Karma as a Char from SR5 that have reached a Skill of 6.
with the same Dance
Medicineman
You're again only taking into account the 'mathematical efficiency' players. Those players (no matter the number of them) that started at 2 or 3 and attained skill rating 6 in one or more skills after quite some time of play should not have to suffer just because of the others.
And, honestly, that's part of my beef with how the errata affected Mystic Adepts in the new edition. It does not substantially hinder the 'efficiency' crowd, but it severely affects those who don't do such things.
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You're again only taking into account the 'mathematical efficiency' players. Those players (no matter the number of them) that started at 2 or 3 and attained skill rating 6 in one or more skills after quite some time of play should not have to suffer just because of the others.
Sorry , but what You're saying(writing) makes no sense to me .
I think we're talking about different subjects.
I think that there is no difference in the Advancement of raising Skills in SR4A and SR5
and therefore Chars should have the same Skill too
You are talking about 'mathematical efficiency' players.
and I don't understand:
Those players (no matter the number of them) that started at 2 or 3 and attained skill rating 6 in one or more skills after quite some time of play should not have to suffer just because of the others.
Why and how they're supposed to suffer
This makes no sense to me (too)
HokaHey
Medicineman
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Don't (never ever) use the Conversion guide !!
You can ( and should) simply use the SR4A Chars ! You only have to calculate the Limits , thats all.
only Equipment has to be converted (Weapons damage x 1.5 ,add acc thats all, Armor highest Value x 1.5 thats all)
Decks and RCCs have to be introduced and 'ware (essence cost) has to be recalculated ,but thats all !
with a much more simple Dance
Medicineman
I seem to remember SR5 allowing for more 'solid' characters, though.
And, honestly, that's part of my beef with how the errataintended rules affected Mystic Adepts in the new edition. It does not substantially hinder the 'efficiency' crowd, but it severely affects those who don't do such things.
Fixed that for you.
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Medicineman, I'll give you the short version: you're wrong. Now for the long version:
A character with a skill of 6 in SR4 was at capped skill. That skill then becomes a 10, which is still a fair bit shy of the cap. But let's look at how these ranks are defined by their respective books:
The “best of the rest.” Maximum skill level for “rank-and-file” unnamed NPCs and starting characters.
You could easily sell your skills on the open market. This is the maximum skill level for starting player characters.
Completely different - one is just shy of being the absolute maximum anyone can acquire (rating 7 in SR4) and the other is midway through possible progression. Now let's look at what rank 10 says in SR5:
You are famous, even among the very best in your field.
Doesn't that sound almost the same as SR4's description of rank 6? Additionally, if you look at the NPCs that a skill-capped character will be facing in SR5, it's not unheard of for them to be facing enemies with a 10 or higher in at least one skill. Why would you want that character to go from being the "best of the rest" to inferior to the same enemies they faced in SR4?
Let's look at what I mean about NPC opposition. At skill-cap, it's probably not unheard of for a character to be facing Professional Rating 5 enemies. In SR4, the highest dice pool for a Professional Rating 5 enemy (Red Samurai) is 12 (Agility 7 + Firearms skill group 5). In SR5, that same enemy's highest dice pool is 16 (Agility 7 + Firearms skill group 9). That's a pretty gigantic difference of 4 dice. If you took a character who could deal with that Rating 5 enemy in SR4 and threw them right into SR5 against the same enemy they're going to either be slaughtered or at least have a hard time getting out alive.
Your suggestion that the karma values are the key factor in determining the value of the skill ignores all the other factors of the edition change. Namely that all the NPCs are substantially more powerful along with the characters. Because the damage codes are all different now too, there's no way to just take a SR4 character and move it into SR5 without doing some math.
OP, my best suggestion is to rebuild the character as closely as possible to the original intent of the build. Spend karma and nuyen using the SR5 rules. Your character will be a little weaker than before, but not substantially. And you'll have a great handle on some of the mechanics of SR5 that have changed from SR4. Limits are not the only thing that need to be changed, despite Medicineman's protestations.
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If you look solely at the titles, the SR4 skill ratings translate to SR5 skill ratings as follows:
1 (Beginner) --> 1
2 (Novice) --> 2
3 (Professional) --> 6
4 (Veteran) --> 7
5 (Expert) --> 8
6 (Elite) --> 10
7 (Legendary) --> 11
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I have to go with Medicineman here. If you are converting NPCs, then use the conversion document. But with PCs, they are created similarly enough in both editions that it wont hurt them any to start raising any 6's they have with karma, rather than giving them an automatic boost.
Imagine PCs that started not too long ago, that have earned 30 karma. They started with a 6, and used some of their karma for a second 6. Now you switch editions. Giving them an automatic bump to 10's is like giving them 68 free karma, per skill. So a new PC joining the group in sr5 isn't just 30 karma behind, now they are almost 140 karma behind.
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Medicineman, I'll give you the short version: you're wrong.
let's agree to disagree :)
Because my Perspective / my Reason is another than Yours.
From Your PoV I may be wrong, but not from Mine
Fact is
Starting Chars in SR4A are limited to Skill 6 (7 with talented)
Starting Chars in SR5 are limited to Skill 6 ( 7 with talented)
ImO there is no need to Push converted SR4A Chars beyond the Limits of SR5 Chars
If You want to have Chars that start with a Skill of 8,9 or 10 thats fine, well I don't . And I would advice against it especially if You mix converted SR4A and new SR5 Chars in the same Group (see also Agonar's Post)
But to each his own
HokaHey
Medicineman
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And the SR4A character(s) brought over under your idea suddenly go from 'among the best in the world' in their field(s) to barely 'professional' in their fields. That is a MASSIVE change to the character.
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And the SR4A character(s) brought over under your idea suddenly go from 'among the best in the world' in their field(s) to barely 'professional' in their fields. That is a MASSIVE change to the character.
but thats not my fault ! ;)
Blame it on CGL who raised the Scale of Skills up to 12 now in SR5
And also that starting Chars in SR5 are capped at Skill 6 which is barely professional
and that you can't play Elite Chars from the Start anymore (Skill 10 ) .
If You allow some Chars (converted SR4A) to be Elite, but you don't allow that to other Chars ( standard SR5 Charts)
than this seems unfair to me and to make It more balanced you should allow this to neither Char or to both Kind of Chars.
with a bit more balanced Dance
Medicineman
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I guess the answer to my question is begin and keep playing with either SR4-20th or SR5, but keep the two separated. :-\
So, in regard of the (real) money invested, it will be SR4-20th ! ;)
thanks for your argumented advices.
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By the way, when I switched my campaign from SR4 to SR5, I basically went "okay, X karma and Y nuyen average per run, this many runs, you guys can spend this much after chargen in a less-limited chargen phase with the following limitations". So you can always play SR4 and take a look at SR5 while you're at it.
Which reminds me: I already used the SR5 Initiative system in my SR4 campaign, it's more fun.
Wish I could give more feedback but 2/3 of this topic is invisible to me so alas.
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And the SR4A character(s) brought over under your idea suddenly go from 'among the best in the world' in their field(s) to barely 'professional' in their fields. That is a MASSIVE change to the character.
but thats not my fault ! ;)
Blame it on CGL who raised the Scale of Skills up to 12 now in SR5
So we should blame CGL for changing something when you're the one who refuses to use the methods they have provided for adjusting to said change? If you don't like the conversion guide, either make them do a rebuild in 5th and give them the Karma and nuyen they earned in 4th post-chargen, or go all-out and cap skills at 6 like in 4th.
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If you don't like the conversion guide, either make them do a rebuild in 5th and give them the Karma and nuyen they earned in 4th post-chargen,....
;D
But thats exactly what I do (and also what I advize other Players to do) ?!! And not only Karma and ¥ also connections Earned during Play ,etc.
And exactly for the Reason that I don't like the Conversion guide , 'cause I consider him unbalanced towards SR5 Chars.
Thats what I've been saying/writing all along
with a dance on his Road
Medicineman
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We seem to be miscommunicating. When I say "rebuild", I mean "make a character using 5th edition character creation rules that follows the concept of your 4th edition character". I do not mean this:
simply use the SR4A Chars
Because like I said, 5th edition chargen allows for more "solid" characters than you could make in 4th, so simply slapping a "5th edition" sticker on a 4th edition character is unfair to them.
Catchphrase!
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We seem to be miscommunicating. When I say "rebuild", I mean "make a character using 5th edition character creation rules that follows the concept of your 4th edition character". I do not mean this:
Hmmm, No we don't :)
I already "converted "4 out of my 6 chars that are old SR4A Chars by making them once more with the SR5 Prio System and adding all their earned Karma & ¥.
2 Chars are Brand new SR5 chars and 2 more Chars are waiting to be " converted" by using the upcoming Karma or BP Rules from Running Harder/faster
with a few SR5 Dances
Medicineman
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Hmmm, No we don't :)
I already "converted "4 out of my 6 chars that are old SR4A Chars by making them once more with the SR5 Prio System and adding all their earned Karma & ¥.
Considering you said "You can ( and should) simply use the SR4A Chars !" in your first post, "And if its a new Char he should not be converted at all but simpley remade within the new SR5 Rules" in your third, and "Thats what I've been saying/writing all along" on page 2, I'd say you're definitely communicating poorly.
Catchphrase!
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Hmmm, No we don't :)
I already "converted "4 out of my 6 chars that are old SR4A Chars by making them once more with the SR5 Prio System and adding all their earned Karma & ¥.
Considering you said "You can ( and should) simply use the SR4A Chars !" in your first post, "And if its a new Char he should not be converted at all but simpley remade within the new SR5 Rules" in your third, and "Thats what I've been saying/writing all along" on page 2, I'd say you're definitely communicating poorly.
Catchphrase!
OK, English ain't my native Language. Sometimes I have trouble writing the right things :)
Both ways of carrying a SR4A Char to SR5 are OK (ImO)
either redo him with the Prio System
or simply use your SR4A Char ( just add Limits and change Equipment)
HougH!
Medicineman
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OK, English ain't my native Language. Sometimes I have trouble writing the right things :)
Both ways of carrying a SR4A Char to SR5 are OK (ImO)
either redo him with the Prio System
or simply use your SR4A Char ( just add Limits and change Equipment)
HougH!
Medicineman
Don't forget to hamstring him if he's a typical Unarmed Combat Phys Ad.
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Don't forget to hamstring him if he's a typical Unarmed Combat Phys Ad.
[ check Hamstring with Leo....]
:-\ :o
Now (for the first Ed that I know of)
a close Combat physical Adept rocks !
( I'm so proud of my Troll, he's got so much Potential)
with an unrestricted Dance
Medicineman
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He forgot to add "Strength 3-ish" to that description. A4BG is part of a group of people that is very unsatisfied with the way going from STR/2 to STR and making Critical Stack a 1-level ability has reduced the potential of low-Strength unarmed adepts (although there's an Athlete's Way metamagic now which counters that).
Catchphrase!
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How does Athlete's Way alleviate the lack of stacking for Critical Strike? Just curious; I don't feel strongly one way or another about Critical Strike being a single level power, to be honest, I just don't see what Athlete's Way changes about it?
Or am I misunderstanding you, and you're saying that Athlete's Way helps with low-strength unarmed adepts? Either way, would you care to elaborate?
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Not Athlete's Way in itself, but as he said the metamagic it allows you to take. You can replace a Physical Attribute with Magic+Initiate Grade for an entire combat turn, 1+Grade times a day. This lets you replace a low Strength with a higher value for a bit. Of course a GM could argue it's only meant for dicepools, but I'd consider Melee Damage akin to Physical Limit.
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Oh, very cool; I hadn't even considered that. Thank you.
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So Medicineman, do you just cap all the skills of the NPCs at 6 as well? Bear in mind as well that in 4th edition, you could only cap one skill at 6. All the other skills had to be less - in SR5, you can have as many skills at 6 as you want at creation. I just think that if you're not going to convert to 5th edition's rules, you might as well stay playing 4th edition. Thus, you are wrong. :P
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There is literally no point in creating brand new characters and converting them from one edition to the other, rather than simply making brand new characters for the new edition.
The trouble with any conversion is that SR4 characters are weaker in absolute terms than their SR5 counterparts, but relatively stronger. In other words, they might only have one 6, but that 6 is better than most NPCs they will meet, rather than being a respectable but middling ability. The other problem is that augmentations and gear have changed so much - dice pool boosters and initiative improvements are much more expensive, deckers and riggers require expensive decks, and so on. It is better to rebuild them with SR5 rules, then add Karma equal to what they had earned.
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It is better to rebuild them with SR5 rules, then add Karma equal to what they had earned.
This is actually what all the characters at my table did when we converted to 5th edition. Overall, it was more balanced in the end and it felt like we'd hardly moved editions at all.
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So Medicineman, do you just cap all the skills of the NPCs at 6 as well? Bear in mind as well that in 4th edition, you could only cap one skill at 6. All the other skills had to be less - in SR5, you can have as many skills at 6 as you want at creation. I just think that if you're not going to convert to 5th edition's rules, you might as well stay playing 4th edition. Thus, you are wrong. :P
I know about the Skillcaps (been playing SR since end of 2nd Ed ;) )
Since I'm not the GM at our SR5 Table I can't answer that issue with NSC Skill caps
But If I would be GM ,I'd cap Skills at 9 for PCs and NPCs both (6 for Starting Chars and normal NPCs and 7-9(10) only for special/ High End NPCs )
I just think that if you're not going to convert to 5th edition's rules, you might as well stay playing 4th edition.
ImO there is no great difference between the two Eds (except for the Matrrix) only the 5the ed is more ...limiting so its not such a bad Idea to stick with the 4A Ed and take everything good of 5th ed and add it on top
In One of my two SR4A Tables we strongly think of Merging SR4A with SR5 ( Using Skillcaps of 9 (10 with talented) , Karmasystem of SR4A, no Limits, SR5 Matrix, SR4A Rigging Rules,no WiFi Schmo, etc) which is by far the best solution (ImO) and name it 4.5A Ed
With the right Dance ;)
Medicineman
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With the right Dance ;)
Medicineman
LOL Medicineman, we may disagree but I love that you do it in a sporting fashion. :)
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Our group uses the conversion rules every time. Since we really like karmagen in SR4 and don't have that option yet in SR5 it seemed to be the best way for us to create the characters we want to play. This weekend it was especially helpful because someone wanted to introduce a decker into our traditionally awakened-heavy group. I don't know exactly which deck he got out of it, but surely saved him like 300,000 to 400,000 bucks. So it definitely works out for us, YMMV.
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Which notes the big problem with the conversion rules: They're not really helping character balance, because they clash with the rebalancing aspects.