Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: jofer234 on <06-26-15/0547:58>
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Hi all!
First of all, i am sorry for my English. I am not a native speaker.
I will be GM on the upcoming weekends :D. I am new to this system, and i have some misunderstands of matrix section.
Please help me. I searched the internet, corebooks, and this forum but i didnt find answers :(
1) Can someone tell me what time pass in the meatworld while you are in the Matrix?In the SH Returns and DragonFall its 2 or 3 turns in Matrix and 1 turn in the Meatworld. But i cant find anything about it in corebook.
2) Okey. Its a suicide mission to attack corporate host because of large defence dicepooll.So decker must exploit Mater/Slave connection to enter the host. But...
Literally we have 50th floor building. How can we quess what EXACTLY device in this building connected to this system? It probably security terminal, yes,but it can be maglock on toilet door on 46th or 32th.
3) Okey. literally another 50th floor building. Runners must steal experimental weapon. Decker found slaved terminal and now walking in host. Decker on 46th floor, others on - 41th floor ::) .In this situation.
a) Can he just exit the host,then join with his team,and enter the host without any problem again on -41th floor? If i understand this right,he lose all marks and disable current running agents and programs only if OS reach 40, Spiders find and erase his marks before that or he reboot his deck to prevent OS reach 40.
b) The team needs to open two doors. First one is slaved to host. So if Decker have direct connection to another slaved device he have direct connection to all slaved devices. Spoof command + Control device against maglock or door device raiting. But the second door is NOT slaved to host. Host is like minimatrix with his own grid. Can decker hack this door like usually non slaved device while he is in the host? Can he hack someone commlin in another building while he is the host?
4) Whats WAN system(s) looks like in the host? Can it be Electronic post like in SH Returns or DragonFall?
5) Can decker or tehnomancer see devices or personas through walls?Example. My decker found someone persona or device with Matrix perception.He switch to AR.Can he still see them?
Its important for me,because if decker can find any device or persona that not running silent on 100m radius...well,he can see all guards or security in through walls.
6) What about walkie-talkies? Most security organisations have private frequency yes,but can decker hack one of them and "join" conversation?
7) Team doesnt want to take publicity points. But they were caught on mission by few witnesses who probably will call the Police Forces. They stiil need to complete their job but arriving Knight Errant its not what their wanted. So,can decker use Matrix Perception or another skill to say which data strams from exactly devices (phone calls) going to police station to prevent this?(hack devices in some way or another.
Well.I guess its all for now. I really hope you will help me guys and i am sorry if all of it was somewhere earlier.
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Answering part of them now...
1) In SR5, matrix uses the exact same initiative as meatspace. If your decker rolls 28 (VR) initiative, and your street sams roll 29 and 26, Sam 1 goes first (with one action pass), followed by the decker (with one action pass), followed by Sam 2 (again, with 1 action pass). And then the same order on the second action pass, and the third - and then all three get to roll again.
2) Not sure what you mean here. I guess it's legwork to find out which is connected to which? I don't think there's a standard answer to this one.
3a) He wouldn't need to exit the host - he can just switch to AR mode, walk down and join his team, and then (if needed) go back to VR. Switching modes doesn't log you in or out of hosts, that's a seperate thing. If you do exit/enter, I don't see why that would do anything to your marks.
4) Whatever the designer wants.
5) I'm pretty sure you only see the matrix icon; you can see that the icon is there (and within 100m), but not exactly "Oh that commlink is three floors up, 2 meters to the north". But I don't really get Matrix Perception so I may be wrong.
6) Well, sure.
7) You cán use Matrix Perception for stuff like that ("The last Matrix action an icon performed", but it'd get pretty hard to keep track of them all, and I don't think you can see exact destinations - or at least, I can't find any rules about that.
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1. Its the same as in meat world. If you hack from AR you even use your meat world initiative score (and can switch between mundane and matrix actions at will).
2. Not 100% what you ask, but you can use matrix perception on a device to find out it's firewall rating. If it is higher than 2 then it is probably slaved to a master device or host.... Not sure, but I think you can also use matrix perception and use one hit for asking "is the device slaved" and after that another matrix perception test for "i am trying to spot the master that this icon is slaved to".
3a. The decker can walk with his team while at the same time his augmented reality persona is in the host (or out on the grid). He keep all the marks and his overwatch score will increase every 15 minutes until GOD find him. If the decker reboot his deck then he no longer have any marks and he no longer have an overwatch score. You don't need to be in VR to enter a host, you can do it from AR just fine.
3b. The decker have a direct connection to all slaved devices if he is
1) in side the host that the slaved device is slaved to
2) have a physical wire between the device and his cyberdeck
Having a physical wire beteween a device and his cyberdeck does not mean he automatically have a direct connection to other slaved devices, but if he place a mark on a slaved device you also get a mark on the master (no matter if you used a direct connection or not). with a mark on a host you can enter it and from there have a direct connection to all slaved devices (ignoring host ratings when hacking them).
when inside a host you cannot hack devices out on the grid that is not slaved to the host.
you first need to exit the host.
When you are outside a host you can hack any device out on the grid, but devices slaved to a host will defend with host ratings.
a host can have devices from multiple buildings slaved to it.
just because you are in a different building does not mean there have to be another host.
it can be the same.
devices in the same building does not have to be slaved to the same host.
just because your are in the same building does not mean all devices are slaved to the same host.
it can be different hosts.
however,
a security rigger will only be directly connected to the devices slaved to the host.
if there are devices slaved to another host or not slaved to the host then he will not have a direct connection to them.
(and the security rigger might be miles away from the actual facility he is protecting...)
4. whatever GM decide.
It can look like a jungle.
It can look like an underwater reef.
It can look like an office building...
5. yes (and what Top Dog said).
6. most communication is done over the matrix. the decker need one mark on the device and then use the snoop action to view all communications from and to that device. the decker can use send message to retransmit the information to others in the team.
7. if you mark and snoop a commlink (or rather the persona formed on a commlink) and it make a call you can use matrix perception to find the destination icon of the call (Uses Of Snoop, red box on p. 242). But it is hard (and a bit dangerous to your overwatch score) to mark and snoop them all..............
depending on your reading you might also be allowed to place a mark direclty on the KE host and then snoop all incomming and outgoing phonecalls and video feeds etc. at once ;)
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Whoa!
So much good info. Thanks a lot guys!!!
2)
Yeah, i meant methods except Legwork.
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5) I'm pretty sure you only see the matrix icon; you can see that the icon is there (and within 100m), but not exactly "Oh that commlink is three floors up, 2 meters to the north". But I don't really get Matrix Perception so I may be wrong.
To elaborate, you can see the matrix icon and know that it is within 100m of you, to find the exact location of it you can Trace Icon. You need to have 2 marks on the item to get the Trace, and then maintain it as long as you have at least 1 mark on the icon.
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Well...just as i thought i completely dont understand matrix runs :/
Guys, help me again please if you can.
1) PANs.
So...we all can create PANs to protect our devices.But what if team decker wants to protect some team devices?I think PAN means Personal Area Network, not Another Person Personal Area network. And i dont understand next moment- okay,he made the PAN with StreetSam devices. Now the StreetSam on the other side of town and under Matrix attack.Is it any noise raiting applicable?
2) How the corps can find runners except meatworld legworking?Example,.Decker entered the Host,did what he wanted,and vanished into the real live.Can corps spider find the deckers mark, and just use matrix perception to find his deck?
3) i created two or three maps for matrix run for my decker.I allow him to use standart movement like in meatworld.But everytime he just runned to the file/Wan and that is!.Host 4 raiting completed!
i didnt see any matrix rule for this.What am i doing wrong?:( My Ic and Spider even cant find him to attack.Yes,he is strong with his starting bioware and chrome augmentation i have no question here.But i just wanted to have enough time to find him.
4) Everyone can spot devices in 100m range if they are not running silent. That means, you actually know what it is (gun,commlimk,else) right?
i am really sorry for my english again and probably too simple matrix questions.I am not lazy,but i really dont understand the Matris :-\
I hope i will understand it more with your help.
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1. This is a bit of a convoluted point. So I'm going to break it down into simple sentences to make sure I say it right.
All Devices have an Icon that's visible on the Matrix.
Only Devices can be in a Master-Slave set up.
Devices have a Firewall=Device Rating unless specifically stated otherwise.
Only Commlinks, Cyberdecks, & RCCS can have a Persona set up on them. (There is a special modification that you can do for other devices but we'll ignore that right now.)
You can not have set up a Master-Slave relationship between a Device & a Persona. (This causes problems for Technomancers but they have a bunch of other problems also. You shouldn't let your players play one... it's confusing & weak even when you know the system.)
So with all those bit of information I'll try to explain what happens in your 1st question. So the Decker has a Deck, it has a Device Rating of 3. He can Slave (DR×3) 9 Devices to his Deck as the Master. Those 9 Devices can now be defended by whatever is the higher of the 2 options between Master & Slave. You can choose to use which ever option is the highest for both things. The Decker now boots his Persona on his Deck, his Decks Device Icon disappears & is replaced with the Avatar of his Persona Icon. Since the Deck no longer has a Device Icon all those Slaved Devices are now part of the Deckers PAN until he Reboots his Deck and it regains it's Device Icon on the Matrix again. There is no Noise Penalties for Defense Tests, Noise is only a factor when you are trying to manipulate the Matrix yourself. So the Street Sam is attacked by some punk kid who thinks he is the best ever to play a Prank on the Sam. So the kid seeing the Sams commlink since he is within 100m & the Sam is not Running Silent. He wants to reboot the Sams commlink so it'll play the most annoying song the kid had ever heard The Macarana on repeat. So he does a Hack on the Fly to get a Mark on the Commlink, The Commlink is a Sense FW 3 & the Sam has a Intuition of 5 & The Deck has a FW of 4 & Intuition of 3. So the Defense Test is with 9 dice (Sams Intuition of 5 & Decks FW of 4) against the punk kids Hacking & Logic die pool.
In a lot of cases, when you have a high level Commlink (Avalon or Caliban) it's better to use it on your own PAN instead of the Decker, if you have a halfway decent Int & Wil since it has such a high Firewall itself to rely on.
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So...decker or anyone else can use this system only while he is in the VR Matrix, right?
I think i got it know.
Can you help me with other questions please?
2) I just read book again, and found they cant.But i guess corps spider at least can share this mark to his corp.Well,looks like there is only Legwork i guess. Except Trace icon, trace IC and etc.
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So...decker or anyone else can use this system only while he is in the VR Matrix, right?
I think i got it know.
Can you help me with other questions please?
2) I just read book again, and found they cant.But i guess corps spider at least can share this mark to his corp.Well,looks like there is only Legwork i guess. Except Trace icon, trace IC and etc.
No Deckers can hack any point in the world while in AR. A satellite uplink & a couple Datajack & Antennas and you could Hack someone or something in Australia as easily as the chummer sitting next to you drinking his morning cup of soycaf. You would need to know pretty much exactly what Icon you are looking for & it'll probably still take quite a while to sort through the Matrix Perception tests playing the 20 question game but it can be done. Once you located the Icon you are good to go. The 100' rule is just so you're brain is not overwhelmed by the sheer vastness of information available. It's a safety measure so people minds don't melt trying to process it all. But if you go looking the you can "see" it in the Matrix. Kinda scary when you really think about it, huh?
#2. Yeah... pretty much. They'll know your Mark but can't Trace where your body is without a Trace. Once GOD gets involved they hammer you & send people to pick you up. That 40 number is essentially them triangulation of the effect you are having on the Matrix around you. Data usage spike, Data anomalies, things like that.... and once they got you, they GET you!!! Kinda rude about it and all... all you're really doing is making people listen to the Macarana on repeat, right???
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Damn, I was letting the table's Technomancer use the Matrix as a kind of "radar" for every device that was in 100m range...
So they just get like a list? Then would have to Trace every single one of them to know their exact locations in real time?
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Damn, I was letting the table's Technomancer use the Matrix as a kind of "radar" for every device that was in 100m range...
So they just get like a list? Then would have to Trace every single one of them to know their exact locations in real time?
Pretty much... it's a ridiculous amount of information to process that the 100' is just so you can interact with stuff around you for basic existence. But actually plotting all that information in real time while tour moving would burn your brain out. It wasn't designed to process that kind of sensory overload. We got our heads as big as we could possibly get them & still pass between a woman's hipbones. That's the hard limit that stopped us... we'd no longer be human if we could do what you're describing.
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I am not sure I agree with the whole "burn your brain out" argument tbh....
You automatically spot the icon of any device not running silent within 100 meters (or within the same host) and you only need one hit to spot the icon of a device not running silent (according to the normal perception table; device icons are about as easy to spot as the threshold to spot a neon sign or a gun fight) and no matter how far away it is located (you can spot a device icon even if it is physically located on the other side of the world). You only need one net hit to spot the icon of a silent running device (again no matter how far away it is located).
If you see another person down the street you automatically also see his PAN icon (and if you wish you also automatically also see all his wireless device icons and file icons - unless he is trying to hide them). If he step into a car and drive to the airport, entering a plane, fly to Europe and even initiated silent running you can continue to spot him (no test required). You may continue to spot him until he reboot (or bend the matrix with the Hide matrix action). You also automatically spot all devices you own or have placed your matrix mark on.
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But what if team decker wants to protect some team devices?
It take about one minute to make the decker the legal matrix owner of a device. He can then slave it to his master device in his PAN (normally a high firewall commlink but can also be a RCC or cyberdeck).
When the device is under attack the decker will defend it with his mental attributes and the firewall of the master device in his PAN.
Now the StreetSam on the other side of town and under Matrix attack.Is it any noise raiting applicable?
It doesn't matter if the device that the decker is the matrix owner of is located on the other side of town. The decker will still defend with his mental attributes plus firewall.
If the device is left unattended (like a maglock) then it will just defend with its device device rating and it's own firewall.
Noise never apply when defending.
Can corps spider find the deckers mark, and just use matrix perception to find his deck?
The host can spot the decker via Matrix Perception from its Patrol IC or if the decker failed a sleaze action, mark the decker twice with Probe IC and/or if the decker failed two sleaze actions and then trace the physical location of the decker using Trace IC.
If overwatch score of the decker reach 40 then GOD will converge. The host will get 3 marks and the physical location of the decker will be reported to the host and grid owner.
The host's security decker can spot, mark and trace the physical location to the cyberdeck where the decker formed his persona.
There is no way to track the decker via the matrix if the decker jack out before he is traced.
3) i created two or three maps for matrix run for my decker.
You don't really traverse different nodes anymore (unless you are doing a deep run into the foundation to reach an archived file). Once inside the host you can use Matrix Search with a base time of 20 combat turns to find the pay data you are looking for. The host's Patrol IC might get more than one attempt to spot the intruder before he manage to find the correct icon.
4) Everyone can spot devices in 100m range ..
Guess I answered this in my previous post.
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But what if team decker wants to protect some team devices?
It take about one minute to make the decker the legal matrix owner of a device. He can then slave it to his master device in his PAN (normally a high firewall commlink but can also be a RCC or cyberdeck).
You don't have to be the legal matrix Owner of a device to have it in a PAN.
if you fail a Sleaze action against a slaved device, only the device’s owner gets the mark on you, not the master too.
That implies that the device owner and the master owner are different personas.
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Agree that the book isn't very clear on this. It has has been clarified that both the slave and the master in a Personal Area Network need to have the same owner.
If you slave your device to a host (being part of a WAN) only you (the owner of the device, not the host) get a mark on a hacker that fail a sleaze action against your device.
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I have re-read all your posts guys,well I think i am starting understand all this matrix system :D.Or at least memorize it.
But still...
1)2) So, Decker can create PANs with team devices and if i understand all this right, PAN still stand even if decker not using Matrix. I read the Gear section in the core book,and found the Jammer.It disable all wireless bonuses if his raiting exceed raiting of the device.Can this thing broke anyone PAN if it exceed the Masters Device raiting? I mean...if this thing can break wireless bonuses,so this thing can vanish the device from matrix?
i didnt saw anything about that but still...
3)4) Well...i like all you just said,but honestly i think i should ask you straight
The decker in my game is strong.Really strong. with all Bioware augmentation and qualities he have very,very large dicepool (10 Logic and 6 in electronic group).He can hack,mark,or break near everything he want.If the Jammer can vanish everything from Matrix he can also hack everything without trouble.And he have programm or quality to prevent tracking from God and Host (i dont remember what exactly he have) And i dont really know what should i do with all this. Except- host 6-8 raiting and tougher spiders.But yes,we have edge..And now he doesnt need any maps.Right now he is god of hacking.
Can you give me an advice?Or i just throw that away because "This is Shadowrun" thing?
5) Guess I answered this in my previous post. (C)
Well....yes,and no.If i understand you correctly,the answer for my question is yes.But that is that point there the Fun of misunderstanding for me begins!
а) I can automatically spot all the devices within 100m range.I know exaclty that the commlink is commlink and the gun is the gun.
b) Now the distance is out of 100m range.What EXACTLY should i know to spot the device?Example: I know my friend using Renraku Sensei commlink.He is the owner by the device. Well no question for my.Spot.Mark.Trace.
c) My friend stole my commlink and changed the ownership.But there are lost and lots of commlinks like was mine. But still i know exactly my commlink.Can i still track my device?
d) i saw MR Johnsons Persona and some of his devices.So is that it?If he doesnt change his persona (that may probably not unique) and he is the owner of his Gun or commlink i can track him?
e) I am decker.I am inside the corps host.My team wants me to open the door.The are 3 silent ruinning WANs inside.If i dont know what i am looking for i wiil spot all the silent running icons one by one to see whats inside.But i know that i need only doors!And probably all silent runing WANs have the doors on them :-\ In this case i think i should know what the exactly door i am looking for (Labs,garage,etc.)or not?
well...this kind of things
I really dont understand this kind of things guys :-\
Before i forget two more question but not about Matrix.Just to not starting another topic.I hope the admin will not close this topic for Flood or something like that.Just 2 questions.
Gear section.
Skillwires: Skillwires are a system of neuromuscular controllers that overlie the body’s natural nervous system; they are capable of aiding or completely overriding muscular movement, controlled by the “muscle memory” played through a skilljack (p. 452). This system allows you to use activesofts with a rating up to your skillwire’s rating, but only if that activesoft is running on your implanted skilljack. Skillwires are incompatible with reflex recorder bioware. Wireless: With the skillwire’s memory cache expanded, all the skills you use with it receive +1 to the relevant inherent Limit (Physical, Mental, or Social).
Skilljack: This headware interprets knowsofts and linguasofts for your brain so you can use them as though they were your own. It can also run activesofts, but they only act as Knowledge Skills unless you have skillwires (p. 455). The total of all skills running on a skilljack cannot exceed its Rating x 2, and the maximum Rating for a skill is the skilljack’s Rating. Starting skills from storage and stopping skills is a Free Action. You can’t use Edge with skills you have through a skilljack. If you have more than one skilljack, only one of them can operate at a time. Wireless: The extra boost from the Matrix increases the total Rating limit to the skilljack’s Rating x 3.
The question is.If i have Skilljack,and skillwires,what kind of skill can i upload?I mean if i dont know about medicine can i use this skill equal to skill jack raiting?I hope i cant combine this thing with skills that i already have....
The second question is...well...i think its kind of strange but here it is.
Honestly i am pretty new to all this Tabletop theme and Shadowrun (Of course!). I read one of mision book and on the last page i found Debrifing Log.So,is this thing only for Catalyst Game convent or I or my players can use it in regular games?I mean,i made the character,but after 6 months or 1 year of playing with current GM lets say....he doesnt want to play anymore.So can i save my character to play with another team?(if the GM allowed)
My point is...well its kind of sad if i cant.Because if the GMwill start to bullying his players the players can quit anytime yes...but the players will also lose their characters...
GM literally lose nothing.Players literally lose all.
I know the tabletop is not the new kind of games.So,can i save my character in one way or another?
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1. No. This is a often-debated/houseruled item, but a jammer just eliminates the wireless bonus (not functionality) of a device. So your smartgun system won't give you +2 dice, but you'll still get the +2 accuracy bonus. Commlinks have no wireless bonus, so jammers don't interact with them.
2. I'd take a closer look at his sheet. There is no program or quality that fully prevents accumulating an OS. There are a few things you can do here or there to delay things, but there's nothing you can do to stop the clock. 16 dice is good-ish for a starting decker, but certainly not enough to make you a God in the Matrix.
5a) Probably. It is possible to mask a device's icon using the Wrapper program or to simply run a device on silent. However, assuming the person you're looking at is a law-abiding citizen (what are the odds?), then you'll be able to distinguish between his commlink and pistol icons.
b) I'm not entirely sure I understand the question. Barring some effort to trick you, you'll know the type of device that you're looking at. You will not know the device's owner, although that's often not hard to infer.
c) If the change of ownership is complete, no. However, this takes a few hours and your friend needs to be connected to the Matrix while he changes the ownership, so you have a window in which to track him down and "thank" him for being such a great friend.
d) Again (and I apologize, it's late and I'm tired), I don't entirely understand the scenario you're talking about here.
e) If you're in a host (and presumably have a mark on said host), you are directly connected to every device slaved to that host. You don't have marks on them, so there are still a few hoops to jump through, but finding door #238 won't be a problem.
You can upload any sort of skill into skillwires. You can upload knowledge and language skills into a skilljack. If you do run an active skill through a skilljack (Pistols, for example), it acts as a Knowledge skill. You know all about different types of pistols, but you're no better at actually firing them.
Shadowrun Missions is its own project and has a subforum here that's worth checking out. The short version: There are different types of missions out there. CMPs are generally for conventions, while the SRM Season 5-6 missions are for a general audience. You can check to see if there are any demo agents near you who offer Shadowrun games as well.
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b) If you know your friends unique commcode you can probably use that when you try to Spot him.
c) If you Spot mr Jonson's matrix icon you may continue to spot it until he (or you) reboot. After that you need to spot him again.....
If you want to snoop incomming and outgoing calls you first need a mark and a successful snoop matrix action. Unless you are a technomancer you only have about an hour before GOD converge.
If you want to get a real time update on his physical location you need two marks and the trace icon matrix action.
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1) Got it.
2) Got it.
And Got it for nearly everything. But still i am not sure about spotting.I will try to explain why i am still cant understand this simple thing( And i am really sorry too for my misunderstanding.
All about 5th point.So what i understand now
1) I can spot every device withint 100m range (if its not running silent) and i know what the exactly the device is (if its not decker programm like Wrapper).
2) If i spot someone device,i can still track it without any test (if the owner didnt reboot or succefully hide from me, or till i reboot my device)
Now the distance to spot is outside of 100m range.And this is there i cant understand how this all system work.
And thats why.
I can understand why i can spot MY commlink if it was stolen.At least because I am still the owner.My commlink have blank with my name.I can understand why i cant spot my commlink if the owner was changed.Because there are lots and lots of commlinks like was mine.
But still,if i understand you correctly,i can also spot the lab door because i am actually know that is the lab door.Also,if i saw someone on the billboard with commlink,or with cyberware,i can spot him too even if i dont know his name to check ownership.Also,if i want to spot all the devices of....lets say,mister Johnson,i must make Extended test (or even without it) but still,i dont even need to know his real name.Even if he threw away his raiting 1 commlink and equip raiting 6 commlnk.I saw his face,or someone described it to me and thats it.
So i can spot anyone device just because i can.Or cant i?
i mean.I dont understand the modus operandi of matrix perception when i try to find someone device in Matrix.If the core rule is know something unique about your target,and not matter what,i cant understand how this works.If you must know at least his name to check the ownership...well...i can understand it.
I hope i described all my thoughts right.
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You automatically spot icons that have your mark (and for all intents and purposes you have the equivalent of four marks on all icons you are the owner of). Even if they run silent and even if they belong to a device that is physically more than 100 meters away from you.
You cannot really check ownership of an icon. If you have a lot of time then i guess you could use Trackback on a mark to find the owner, but that's it.
When you form your persona on your cyberdeck you can view the entire matrix. You can "fly" around the matrix sky (either by moving around your "matrix perception" in a "AR window" while walking around in the meat or by literally "flying" in virtual reality) looking down on all device icons that make out the matrix ground levels. Icons towards the "edge" are dim and flickering and hard to make out, but you can still see them. As you "fly" towards the edge of the matrix (there are no real distances in the matrix, you just like the feeling of flying) and you look over your shoulder you see a very bright icon. That is the device you used to base your persona on. Around that device there are a small cluster of icons that are rather crisp and vibrant. They belong to devices that are physically close to your cyberdeck. You put your attention forward again and zoom in very close on one of the dim device icons. You spend a second or do to Observe In Detail (using Matrix Perception). Its hard since the icon is very dim and is probably either very far away from your cyberdeck or is in some sort of high spam or static zone. It turns out that the icon you are looking at is a device rating 2 electronic device that seem to have something to do with illumination. Close to it are other stationary device icons that probably belong to stationary wireless electronic devices but you also see man-sized icons that move in various directions that probably are other personas. You Observe the icon again trying to find out more information about it, but before you do that you shift data processing to be your highest matrix attribute and you also load Signal Scrub. You make out that the device belong to a street lamp that will defend with a firewall rating of 2 (so it is probably not slaved) and is running on the local Berlin City Grid. The only way to access the local grid is to physically be there (or be a technomancer) so you need to work across grids and you now also know that the icon is located in Berlin somewhere. You switch sleaze to your highest matrix attribute and then you trick the icon to accept one of your marks. Then another. That cause ripples within the matrix. Ripples that the demiGOD start to investigate. Within about an hour it will converge on you but you plan to reboot long before that. Then you physically trace the device. You now know that it is located exactly at the corner of Leipziger Straße and Wilhelmstraße in the Berlin sprawl, Europe. That would explain why the icon was so hard to spot. With a blink of an eye you find yourself back at your cyberdeck. Far far away you still see the street lamp. Spending a free action and rolling electronics warfare you use Control Device to switch off the lamp. As the corner of Leipziger Straße and Wilhelmstraße in the Berlin spraw goes darker you switch to AR and reboot your cyberdeck.....
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You see a physical toaster in front of you. Since the toaster is within 100 meters and not running silent you automatically also see its device icon with you augmented reality overlay.
On the same table you see a physical Ruger Super Warhawk. However, you don't see the tomahawk like device icon with your augmented realilty overlay. Strange... Perhaps it's owner set it to run silent...? to spot it's device icon you take an opposed Matrix Perception test against the owners logic.
...or owners logic plus sleaze rating if the device got a sleaze rating or is slaved to the owners cyberdeck or other device with a sleaze rating. Or device rating if the device is left unattended - like a maglock that is not slaved. Or host rating and host sleaze rating if slaved to a host...
If you still don't see its icon it might be because you failed your test (you can use rules for Trying Again if you wish).
...or because the device is wireless off (you can Trying Again to spot it but as long as it is wireless off you will never spot it) or because the device is a throwback....
If you succeed then you will see the tomahawk like icon that belong to the -wireless on and silent running- Ruger Super Warhawk.
If you don't even have an idea that there might be any silent running devices out there or if you have no idea of what you are looking for other than silent running devices in general then you can always first try to get a random list of all silent running devices in the vicinity and then try to spot them one by one as normal.
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i think i got it.Probably very clear..
So much thanks for your help guys.
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1) I can spot every device withint 100m range (if its not running silent)
You can spot every single icon in the entire world, but beyond 100 meters they are no longer obvious so you need to take a test to Spot them (just like you may need to take a test to spot a specific neon sign 30 meters down the street or to notice the gun fire in the next alley).
and i know what the exactly the device is (if its not decker programm like Wrapper).
You know the basic nature of the device without looking closer. A weapon will always look like some sort of weapon (but a hi-tec rifle can for example look like a medieval spear). A vehicle will always look like some kind of transportation (but a modern car can for example look like a chariot with horses and everything). Its a data processing test to change an icon do anyone can do it, but unless you also run wrapper you still need to have the weapon look like some sort of weapon and the vehicle still have to look like some sort of transportation.
If you spend a Matrix Perception to look more closely you can find out more exact details, like model, device rating etc. Looking more closely also reveals the true nature of an icon changed with Wrapper.
2) If i spot someone device,i can still track it without any test (if the owner didnt reboot or succefully hide from me, or till i reboot my device)
You still Spot it. Its still in your "list" of icons you spot. You can still interact with it (like using Matrix Perception to find out more details about the icon, hack on the fly to trick the icon to accept your mark, snoop or control it once you marked it etc)
...but to actually track it's physical location you need two marks and successfully use the Trace Icon matrix action.
I can understand why i can spot MY commlink if it was stolen.At least because I am still the owner.My commlink have blank with my name.
You automatically spot icons that have your mark. For all intents and purposes you have 4 marks on all items you are the legit matrix owner of. You automatically Spot all your icons.
I can understand why i cant spot my commlink if the owner was changed.Because there are lots and lots of commlinks like was mine.
If you are not the owner, you don't have your mark on it, it is currently not in your spot list and you don't know any unique feature about it then you can still always try to play 20 questions to find it.
Player: "I filter my view to only see device icons that belong to a toaster"
GM: "That narrows it down to about 878 000 000 units world wide... Can you be more specific? "
But still,if i understand you correctly,i can also spot the lab door because i am actually know that is the lab door.
If you know which specific lab door you are looking for then you can spot it with a matrix perception test. If the door is physically within 100 meters and not running silent then you don't even need to take a test. If the door is running silent and slaved to a host then it might be quite hard to find out on the grid - in this case you might want to establish a direct connection to it (being inside the host it is slaved to, attach a physical cable between your cyberdeck and the device or physically touch it if you are a technomancer with a skin link echo).
Also,if i saw someone on the billboard with commlink,or with cyberware,i can spot him too even if i dont know his name to check ownership.
You don't need to know ownership of a device to spot it's device icon. In fact ownership isn't really something you can spot at all.
It is not clear if you can or cannot "spot all devices slaved to this master device", "spot the master device that this device is slaved to" or "spot all devices that is part of this PAN".
What do you mean with billboard? You can't spot a device icon from just looking in a magazine or looking at a picture....
Also,if i want to spot all the devices of....lets say,mister Johnson,i must make Extended test (or even without it)
You can't seem to spot all the devices that mr Johnson is the legit matrix owner of. If you see a mark you can make an extended test to find its rightful owner - but not the other way around.
If you mark a slaved device you also get a mark on the master (device or host). This can be used to find the master device in a PAN.
You may or may not be allowed to use matrix perception to find devices that belong to his PAN (devices he slaved to his master device/commlink).
but still,i dont even need to know his real name.Even if he threw away his raiting 1 commlink and equip raiting 6 commlnk.I saw his face,or someone described it to me and thats it.
It seem as if ownership is not something you can use to find a device icon (except if it is yours). Having seen the physical face or name of the owner does not help you finding a device icon, either.
If you for example know his unique commcode then you can try to spot his persona icon no matter which device he used to form his persona on and no matter where in the world he is located or if he is running silent.
If someone "phone" you, then you can try to to find the persona that made the "call". If he is using a device within 100 meters of you and is not running silent then you automatically spot him, if not you need to take a matrix perception test.
If you have one mark on a persona and snoop him while he sends a message then you can try to spot the recipient. If he does not try to hide and is within 100 meters of you then you automatically spot him if not you need to take a perception test.
So i can spot anyone device just because i can...
Sure. The problem is to filter. To ask the correct question(s).
Player "How many personas are there in the vicinity"
GM "There are currently 153 personas within 100 metres that are not trying to hide"
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Just a quick follow up on Xenon's comment:
It is not clear if you can or cannot "spot all devices slaved to this master device", "spot the master device that this device is slaved to" or "spot all devices that is part of this PAN".
At my table, Matrix Perception can be used to determine characteristics (or the lack thereof) of icons. The list on page 235 is a good starting point, but this also expands things to allow for someone to narrow the list of silently-running icons in his vicinity to only personae when he's picking randomly (p. 236). So, "silently-running icons that aren't Stealth Tags" or "silently-running icons that are weapons" are legitimate questions. However, Matrix Perception does not reveal relationships between icons that aren't already obvious. Finding all the devices slaved to a master device is something that could probably be accomplished through legwork and some digging into the files on the master device itself, but Matrix Perception alone isn't going to reveal that sort of information. This isn't core, but it gets around the "1,000 Stealth Tag" problem while still allowing for a certain level of anonymity and mystery in the Matrix.
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I have some(hopefully) quick persona questions:
1) Are commcodes tied to specific personas?
1b) If so, do I have to switch between various personas in order to have (for example) a "public" commcode (for my legit SIN, for example) and a "runner" commcode (for my fake SIN)?
2) Is your SIN tied to your persona, or can you swap between SINs (such as between different fake SINs) by swapping files around?
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I have some(hopefully) quick persona questions:
1) Are commcodes tied to specific personas?
1b) If so, do I have to switch between various personas in order to have (for example) a "public" commcode (for my legit SIN, for example) and a "runner" commcode (for my fake SIN)?
2) Is your SIN tied to your persona, or can you swap between SINs (such as between different fake SINs) by swapping files around?
1. No. Commocodes are tied to devices (it's probably possible to change a device's commcode and/or transfer an old commcode to a new device--ask your GM).
2. No. In a world full of fake SINs and burner links, personae and SINs overlapping would be a real hassle for the criminally-minded.
More broadly: It's important to make a distinction between your avatar and your persona for these sorts of questions. The rules don't always do this because in many cases they're interchangeable, but the Matrix knows the difference. Your avatar is what your persona looks like--a guy in a trenchcoat, a Manga-inspired schoolgirl, whatever. To some degree, your avatar is dictated by the device you're currently using. A DR 1 commlink and a DR 6 commlink could both make you look like a guy in a trenchcoat, but the DR 6 will create an avatar whose fluidity and resolution is noticeably better.
Your persona is slightly different. It's not something created by a device to represent you in the Matrix (like an avatar); in many respects, it's you. You can put on different outfits and change your hair, but you're still you. It's essentially impossible for a Matrix user to perceive this, but it's a critical distinction when it comes to how ownership works. Your devices know you as your persona, not your avatar. And your persona is the same no matter what device you use to log into the Matrix. If someone steals your commlink and you go to Lone Star quickly enough, they'll let you log into the Matrix (assuming you're a SINner with no record) and your commlink will still recognize you as its owner, assuming it's still connected to the Matrix and the ownership change hasn't happened yet. There is something unique to you (biometrics, most likely) that creates a unique "thumbprint" on your persona. It cannot be duplicated by others. Just like in real life, casual observers can't read your thumbprint, but devices you own can.
SINs are assigned, or not assigned, as part of a societal process. Personae are formed as part of a technical process. One does not rely on the other.
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Your commcode is like your combined steam/Facebook/LinkedIn/Google/xBox 360/ICQ/Spotify/Skype account, right?
It is the commcode your friends use when they contact you (calling, email, instant message, live video conference or what not).
So this is linked to your device. Your device specific avatar...
If the commcode is linked to your device can't you then spot it with a hit from a matrix perception? If you know the unique commcode if a device, can't that be used to spot it no matter where it is in the matrix.
....and if so, will that not be rather dangerous for a decker on an expansive cyberdeck. You can't really toss it just because a spider spot your cyberdeck avatar and it's associated commcode in a host on some random run :(
...and doesnt it also mean that technomancers need to use a device based avatar rather than their deviceless living avatar if they want to get a combined steam/Facebook/LinkedIn/Google/xBox 360/ICQ/Spotify/Skype account?
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This line of reasoning is precisely why I assume that changing a commcode (or having the Matrix equivalent of call forwarding) is SOP and having multiple commlinks (one legit, one "for business," burners, etc.) is also pretty common. Outside of purchasing new hardware, I just handwave it since having people traced via a single hit (well, two hits, I guess) on MP would dissolve a lot of aspects of the game.
My main character is partly inspired by le Carre novels, so I get really into the operational security aspect of things (Missions, of course, does all it can to laugh in my face when it comes to this) so I'll chart out my characters' approaches to things beforehand. That way there's no confusion as to whether or not I'm running wireless on/off, silent, whatever in a certain situation and I'm never tempted to metagame when a GM asks me what wireless I'm using. I imagine most campaigns don't really require that level of detail, but I enjoy the thought exercise aspect of it.
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So if I have a commlink that I use so that my boss (for my legit job with a real SIN) can get a hold of me, what happens if I leave my commlink at the office by mistake? Can I route calls/messages/whatever directed to the commcode for that commlink to another commlink?
What about if I get a sweet bonus at the end of the quarter and decide to upgrade to a Farlight Caliban? Can I move my commcode over to it, or do I have to let everyone know that it changed?
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Yes to all. These are all things you can do with your phone and computer today, so I have no problem allowing them in Shadowrun. And leaving your commlink in your office is going to earn all sorts of unpaid overtime, chummer.
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How official is that?
I would personally assume that commcode would work a bit like an email, Skype account or ICQ account. That the email, Skype and ICQ is connected to your Internet account rather than the mobile device you currently use. That you can check your email, get calls on Skype or messages on ICQ no matter what device you use. That you don't get a new email, Skype account or ICQ account just because you get a new smartphone.
Even phone numbers today are not tied to a phone. You can get a temporary prepaid SIM card. Use that in your phone. Pull it out and throw it away. Put in your regular SIM card.
As I see it commcode should be something you tie to a persona. Something that you can use no matter what avatar you use. That you are not forced to get a new commcode just because someone steal your commlink or just because you use a commlink rather than your cyberdeck. That technomancers can communicate with others and that others can communicate with technomancers (sending a message) no matter if they use an avatar based on a device or not.
That you still can check your messages even if you base your persona on a toaster with a persona firmware.
That unique matrix commcode identity is linked to a unique virtual matrix... "thing" (like your unique matrix persona) rather than a unique physical.... "thing" (like one of your commlinks).
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Totally unofficial. I doubt we'll ever see official word on this type of question, to be honest.
The problem (-ish) of using the email model is that your Matrix connection is tied to your Lifestyle which can be tied to your SIN. From a design standpoint, that's something I try very hard to avoid. If your SIN gets burned and you have to ditch your cyberdeck license, that's one thing. If you have to ditch your cyberdeck, that's another.
I totally agree with the second part of your post, but I think that's still possible. A single persona could have multiple commcodes and check them all from a single device without a problem. You've been able to call your own phone to check voicemail for ages--that's such an antiquated way of doing things, I'm not actually sure you still can, but the basic design principle is the same. If I'm logged into the Matrix using my Joe Wageslave commlink, I can still check my messages on my Joe Shadowrunner commlink without a problem. It's just that the two devices have two distinct commcodes. Joe's persona is still the owner of both items, so you can use them no matter what avatar you're using at any given moment.
You never actually call Bishop's (my main character) commlinks; you call his router (essentially, a separate commlink that works like Grasshopper). The router then pings his PAN with an "incoming call" message. Based on who it is and what Bishop is doing, he'll answer the call with a different commlink. He has a totally clean router and a totally clean SIN that he keeps for recurring expenses and buys new routers every month or so for business use. Since he owns all these devices, he can see and interact them all without a problem.
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I am not suggesting your commcode is tied to your lifestyle, SIN or commlink... Just like your persona is not tied to your lifestyle, SIN or commlink. I suggest that your commcode is something you only access when you are "on line". That a commcode is a matrix "alias" rather than a SIM-card hardwired into a physical commlink.
No matter what grid you are currently using. No matter what SIN you might or might not have on your commlink. No matter what device you might or might not use to base your avatar on.
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I am not suggesting your commcode is tied to your lifestyle, SIN or commlink... Just like your persona is not tied to your lifestyle, SIN or commlink. I suggest that your commcode is something you only access when you are "on line". That a commcode is a matrix "alias" rather than a SIM-card hardwired into a physical commlink.
No matter what grid you are currently using. No matter what SIN you might or might not have on your commlink. No matter what device you might or might not use to base your avatar on.
Is this like a permament attachment that every matrix entity gets a commcode at creation that is immutable? Or is this more like, to use a current day AWS reference, an ENI that can be detached and re-attached to various entities?
If the former, I think that breaks a *lot* of things. If the later, than I don't see the mechanical difference between that and the "sim-card" analogy.
I dig the idea of a commcode being more or less it's own thing indepenent of "gear." That would let TMs get multple codes without needing to buy a bunch of hardware, but I think you'd need some kind of limiting factor on it, otherwise TMs get "free" burners. Dunno, maybe thats why codes are attached to specific peices of hardware. Buy a burner commlink, take the code from that and attach that to your deck or your LP. Food for thought.
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I like the idea that technomancers can have a matrix alias/commcode you can Send Message to and that technomancers may use when they Send Message back to you.
Doesn't say you need an avatar based on a commlink to use the Send Message matrix action.
That - or that you, in addition to Send Message to a commcode you know, also can use Send Message to communicate with a persona that you currently Spot.
When you receive a call from the matrix you may use matrix perception to spot the icon from where the call originated from. If I recall correctly this is described in a red box named uses of snoop... The example with the Decker and Rigger fooling around also suggest that you can send a message to a persona just by spotting it (or maybe reply to whomever send you a message even if he is currently hidden from view).
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Isn't commcode something like IPv6x? It is "unique" address that other could use to reach you, but you can change it easily and you could use multitude of them.
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It's not well described at all.
If I recall correctly; Core only mention it a few times. In a red box with matrix jargong and briefly mentioned under Send Message.
For a long time I also thought it was listed as one of the characteristics you could ask with matrix perception, until someone pointed out that it actually said commode and not commcode (still not sure what a commode is -that word is not mentioned anywhere else- or if it is a typo and that it actually should say commcode). Data Trails didn't mention the word even once.
Could someone please copy pasta the book definition of commcode from the red box in the matrix chapter?
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A commode is a Kommode. I'm certain that's a "it's a real word, so spellcheck missed it" typo. It's meant to say commcode.
Page 215
Commcode: Combination email address, phone number, and IM name that identifies an individual for communication; if people want to get a hold of you, this is what they need.
For the sake of completeness, here's the definition from Unwired.
Matrix service providers (MSPs) issue commcodes (see p. 214, SR4), which are not to be confused with access IDs. Whereas your access ID is a sort of serial number that you use for all of your interactions online, and which is recorded in access logs (like an IP address in real life), your commcode is more akin to a phone number or email address.
I don't want to draw too many parallels between how the Matrix used to work and how it works now, but the core idea of it being an email address/means of contact remains. In 4e it was clearly distinct from your access ID (which is roughly similar to how personae govern ownership in 5e).
A rule of thumb I try to keep in mind when I'm writing stuff: Shadowrun needs to be playable for a smart 15-year old. That's one of the reasons guys sitting around eating pizza can come up with a plan to break into a multi-billion nuyen facility guarded by highly-trained dudes with assault rifles. Having reference points like email, phone number, and IM name helps 15-year olds easily grasp the game concept. I'm 40 and generally the youngest guy at my table. We have ex soldiers, guys who work in IT security, guys who worked in "regular" security, a guy who owns a gun dealership, and a guy who looks exactly like Gary Gygax. Like, exactly. So I'd tailor my stuff to make things a little more challenging for them, but that really shouldn't be the baseline of the rules. I'm all for adding whatever level of complexity folks feel is appropriate through houserules, but adding complexity to the core rules, while not something I'm against in all cases, is something that I'm very cautious about.
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Page 215
Commcode: Combination email address, phone number, and IM name that identifies an individual for communication; if people want to get a hold of you, this is what they need.
To me this sound as if a SR5 commcode is your "Internet Alias".
Your SR5 ekvivalent of your 2015 Skype account (combined with your Gmail account, combined with your Instant Message account, combined with your......)
That you can access it with your unique Persona, no matter what device specific Avatar you might use.
That technomancers have a commcode even if they use their deviceless living persona.