Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Hobbes on <07-01-15/0142:25>
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So, (used) Reaction Enhancers 3; Cerebellum Booster 2; Alpha Boosted Reflexes.
+5 initiative (indirectly from Reaction and Intuition boosts) and +1d6 Initiative as well as +5 to Dodge tests and a bunch of other stuff for 141,250 and 2.325 Essence. Fairly difficult to beat that for cost effectiveness. Compared to Wired 2 the combo is less essence, tiny bit less Nuyen, much better boosts, lower overall ceiling.
I may have found my new default loadout...
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For a home game the GM would be entirely within their rights to say none of the augmentations in Chrome Flesh are currently available Used because they are too new to market. For Missions it's too early to see what Sinthalix decides to allow since the legal date is still TBA.
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For a home game the GM would be entirely within their rights to say none of the augmentations in Chrome Flesh are currently available Used because they are too new to market. For Missions it's too early to see what Sinthalix decides to allow since the legal date is still TBA.
The only thing Used is Reaction Enhancers.... they've been around for 2 decades from the 2050s. Pretty sure that there are some Used ones laying around.
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So, (used) Reaction Enhancers 3; Cerebellum Booster 2; Alpha Boosted Reflexes.
+5 initiative (indirectly from Reaction and Intuition boosts) and +1d6 Initiative as well as +5 to Dodge tests and a bunch of other stuff for 141,250 and 2.325 Essence. Fairly difficult to beat that for cost effectiveness. Compared to Wired 2 the combo is less essence, tiny bit less Nuyen, much better boosts, lower overall ceiling.
I may have found my new default loadout...
I'd recommend throwing in some Reakt as well. ¥73,000 but you get another 2 Dodge dice. Don't forget that Cerebellum Booster 2 is going to require a Restricted Gear quality to get (kind cool to have something besides a Pain Editor for 'ware that's worth getting)
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For a home game the GM would be entirely within their rights to say none of the augmentations in Chrome Flesh are currently available Used because they are too new to market. For Missions it's too early to see what Sinthalix decides to allow since the legal date is still TBA.
The only thing Used is Reaction Enhancers.... they've been around for 2 decades from the 2050s. Pretty sure that there are some Used ones laying around.
Two things.
Firstly, I was not referring directly to Hobbes' post, but rather the availability of ALL the gear in Chrome Flesh.
Secondly, you are ignoring the fact that there are players who are coming into the game for the first time with 5th Edition. Yes, Shadowrun has a timeline of events going back to the late 1990s which sets out the canon, but with each new edition the tech is reset until released. Unless you know otherwise?
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For a home game the GM would be entirely within their rights to say none of the augmentations in Chrome Flesh are currently available Used because they are too new to market. For Missions it's too early to see what Sinthalix decides to allow since the legal date is still TBA.
The book is new on the market; the 'ware it describes isn't (except for those pieces the game describes as new). Cerebellum Boosters are described as new, but it doesn't say how new - maybe it's 'only' a few years old? Boosted Reflexes aren't described as new.
By your logic, you couldn't get Used cyberware from the SR5 core book in the first few months after it came out.
(Mind you, there's a better reason why you can't get those two Used - it's Cultured Bioware. And he didn't try to get those used. But this too is a reply to your general point).
As to the combo itself, It's a good and cheap way to get initiative, but Boosted Reflexes cannot be removed at all and it's incompatible with further Initiative booster. You'd cut yourself off from further initiative enhancements (you can get new ones, but then you lost 0.8 essence on a useless piece of gear - not a small amount).
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I'm still digesting CF's crunch (I see big changes on the horizon for my SRM character--lots of Working for the Man), but I was thinking along the same lines. I would probably take Reakt before I took Cerebellum Boosters (no need to spend karma on a PQ, cheaper than Rating 2 CBs) and I'd also optimize the Reaction Enhancers.
Boosted + Rating 3 REs (used) + Optimization + Reakt = +4 Reaction, +1d6 Initiative, net +7 dice to Defense Tests (Jesus...).
Total Cost: 116,050 nuyen, 2.652 Essence. It's probably worth the investment to upgrade your boosted reflexes to alpha.
For me, the magic number when rolling +2d6 initiative dice is 14. If your post-augmentation Initiative attribute is at least 14, you'll get the third initiative pass more often than not, 53.3% of the time. Going to 15 bumps you to 72.2% (18.9% delta), 16 is 83.3 (11.1% delta), and so on. You can figure out exactly how much diminishing returns with which you're comfortable.
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Reation Optimization doesn't work with Boosted Reflexes nor does it stack with Reaction. It is strictly a +1 Initiative Bonus, so no Defense Dice or compatibility with any other Initiative or Reaction enhancements. All in all not very useful in the slightest to the vast majority of characters.
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Reation Optimization doesn't work with Boosted Reflexes nor does it stack with Reaction. It is strictly a +1 Initiative Bonus, so no Defense Dice or compatibility with any other Initiative or Reaction enhancements. All in all not very useful in the slightest to the vast majority of characters.
Natch. That's likely a good thing. I'm still taking Reakt early and often.
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Reation Optimization doesn't work with Boosted Reflexes nor does it stack with Reaction. It is strictly a +1 Initiative Bonus, so no Defense Dice or compatibility with any other Initiative or Reaction enhancements. All in all not very useful in the slightest to the vast majority of characters.
Natch. That's likely a good thing. I'm still taking Reakt early and often.
First thing I do is scour for Reaction/Initiative Boosters to see if there are any new combos that be stacked together. Boosted Reflexes is a Failure! They do so much & so comprehensively wrong in Street Grimore but at least they added Foci Enhancement rules, I was hoping that they would include some Augmentation Enhancement rules too. But I guess the 200 pages of the Fluff Bomb got in the way.
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Then perhaps we should be looking at Genetech: Transgenics, the synaptic accelerator adds +1 initiative, +1 initiative die, and +1 die to defense tests. The draw back is that any initiative augmentations nullifies this treatment, so incompatible with the Reaction Enhancer Optimization, but Reaction Enhancers, Cerebellum Booster, and Reakt are still fair game.
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Don't forget that Cerebellum Booster 2 is going to require a Restricted Gear quality to get (kind cool to have something besides a Pain Editor for 'ware that's worth getting)
Availability 8 times rating. Dang it. Back to scribbling...
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As to the combo itself, It's a good and cheap way to get initiative, but Boosted Reflexes cannot be removed at all and it's incompatible with further Initiative booster. You'd cut yourself off from further initiative enhancements (you can get new ones, but then you lost 0.8 essence on a useless piece of gear - not a small amount).
Yeah, that was the "lower ceiling". Long term you can get better with more Nuyen and the like. But there are a zillion other things to sink nuyen into.
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Don't forget that Cerebellum Booster 2 is going to require a Restricted Gear quality to get (kind cool to have something besides a Pain Editor for 'ware that's worth getting)
Availability 8 times rating. Dang it. Back to scribbling...
Can I interest you in examining the Customized Drugs and hearing your response to what you decipher? I'd like to see how it compares to mine... I really need to start a Thread about it.
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Then perhaps we should be looking at Genetech: Transgenics, the synaptic accelerator adds +1 initiative, +1 initiative die, and +1 die to defense tests. The draw back is that any initiative augmentations nullifies this treatment, so incompatible with the Reaction Enhancer Optimization, but Reaction Enhancers, Cerebellum Booster, and Reakt are still fair game.
Synaptic Accelerator is essentially a non-upgradeable Rating 1 Synaptic Booster. Not a bad thing mind you, but I haven't come up with a set up that benefits from it enough to blow off any upgrade down the road. Boosted Reflexes is cheap and generally a starting character has more Nuyen limitations than Essence so the trade off is more palatable IMO.
Or look at it this way Boosted Reflexes to Synaptic Accelerator is an extra 68k to pick up +1 Dodge and Initiative and save .6 Essence. (or more likely 66K extra for a .4 Essence saving as Alpha Boosted Reflexes is a no-brainer...)
A vat grown shapeshifter may be interested though. Prototype Transhuman shapeshifter. There is a story. Dibs.
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Can reaction enhancers and boosted reflexes work together for initiative (incompatible with other initiative enhancing ware)? My thought is if you wanted both, you could use the boosted reflexes for initiative, but then your reaction enhances wouldn't add to your initiative, but you could still use your reaction enhancers for reaction linked skill test and dodge pools.
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Can reaction enhancers and boosted reflexes work together for initiative (incompatible with other initiative enhancing ware)? My thought is if you wanted both, you could use the boosted reflexes for initiative, but then your reaction enhances wouldn't add to your initiative, but you could still use your reaction enhancers for reaction linked skill test and dodge pools.
Reaction Enhancers are a Reaction Enhancement not an Initiative Enhancement. Initiative is a derived attribute from Reaction & Intuition. So your Reaction Enhancers count for you Reaction, Boosted Reflexes count for Initiative. They will both work... though why you want Boosted Reflexes is another story. It's terrabad!!!! Synaptic Acceleration give the +1 Initiative & +1 Defense Test & +1d6 Initiative, so it's essentially giving you all the benefits of another point of Reaction except for Pilot tests.
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Price is a big one. Boosted Reflexes can be grabbed with Resources D, after all. Mmm, Razorbois...
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Synaptic Acceleration give the +1 Initiative & +1 Defense Test & +1d6 Initiative, so it's essentially giving you all the benefits of another point of Reaction except for Pilot tests.
.... and except for surprise rolls.
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Synaptic Acceleration give the +1 Initiative & +1 Defense Test & +1d6 Initiative, so it's essentially giving you all the benefits of another point of Reaction except for Pilot tests.
.... and except for surprise rolls.
True... but considering that it's 1.6 points of Essence cheaper than Wired Reflexes 1, not that bad of a trade off.
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I agree. I like it a lot. Good for NPCs and special runners who don't need to or can't go heavy on the reflexes.
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I agree. I like it a lot. Good for NPCs and special runners who don't need to or can't go heavy on the reflexes.
I'm just happy that since it stacks with Reaction Enhancers & Kamikaze... so they are way better than Synaptic Booster!
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If you're looking at it that way, then Lightning Reflexes is the same as Synaptic Acceleration, though it is a 20 Karma Quality. And it does pretty much identical things. Unless you have a pressing need for other qualities (I can usually find something with how many books have come out, but still could see taking it) it will work rather well for what you're talking about. Yes, you could take Prototype Transhuman and buy Boosted, but that loses the +1 initiative and +1 defense (which it states is all Defense tests, not just melee and ranged) while still getting the 10 points of Negative Qualities as offset cost. For what you're paying... I would put the Boosted as ~ even with Lightning Reflexes (cost being the big equalizer for them at CC) with Synaptic Acceleration being slightly lower.
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If you're looking at it that way, then Lightning Reflexes is the same as Synaptic Acceleration, though it is a 20 Karma Quality. And it does pretty much identical things. Unless you have a pressing need for other qualities (I can usually find something with how many books have come out, but still could see taking it) it will work rather well for what you're talking about. Yes, you could take Prototype Transhuman and buy Boosted, but that loses the +1 initiative and +1 defense (which it states is all Defense tests, not just melee and ranged) while still getting the 10 points of Negative Qualities as offset cost. For what you're paying... I would put the Boosted as ~ even with Lightning Reflexes (cost being the big equalizer for them at CC) with Synaptic Acceleration being slightly lower.
Boosted Reflexes & Lightning Reflexes are both really Not Good. Synaptic Acceleration is better than Synaptic Booster 1, there are plenty of ways to fit SA in since it synergizes so well it Reaction Enhancers.
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Lightning Reflexes is pretty much identical to Synaptic Acceleration I thought? In what way is it different?
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someone really should do a spreadsheet what stacks with what
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someone really should do a spreadsheet what stacks with what
I would, if we only could come to some sort of consensus if
1) augmentation only applies to cyberware and bioware of if it also include spells, drugs, adept powers etc.
and if
2) increases to initiative actually mean anything that increases [physical] initiative (the sum of many parts) or if it only mean direct increases to physical initiative attribute or physical initiative dice.
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I tend to go with the most restrictive reading of things until it's noted otherwise, unless it's something that doesn't make sense with that. I can argue for less restrictive as House Rules, but I tend to go with the most restrictive for anything else. Until I read Lightning Reflexes I never thought someone might think an Initiative Booster (that notes it doesn't stack with initiative boosts) would stack with any initiative boosts (tech, magic, drugs). And by initiative boost I mean anything that directly (not indirectly by raising Reaction and Intuition) raises Initiative weather dice or flat bonus.
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Lightning Reflexes is pretty much identical to Synaptic Acceleration I thought? In what way is it different?
Lightning Reflexes stacks with Nothing! SA stacks with Reaction Enhancers, Drugs, & Increase Reflexes spell... so better in every way than Lightning Reflexes & Synaptic Booster 1. You can take a single level of it then supplement more Initiative Dice with Drugs or Spells.
someone really should do a spreadsheet what stacks with what
I would, if we only could come to some sort of consensus if
1) augmentation only applies to cyberware and bioware of if it also include spells, drugs, adept powers etc.
and if
2) increases to initiative actually mean anything that increases [physical] initiative (the sum of many parts) or if it only mean direct increases to physical initiative attribute or physical initiative dice.
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1. Augmentation only applies to Augmentations, as Lightning Reflexes shows the clear distinctionbetween Augmentation, Magical, & Chemical in its wording.
2. Initiative only applies to Initiative, not the nebulous 3 different attributes you keep trying to fit it into. Reaction is Reaction, Intuition is Intuition, & Initiative is Initiative. The Move by Wire System shows that Initiative isn't even bound by the +4 Augmented Bonus Maximum like a regular attribute is.
We had a good compatability chart going on a thread a while back that included everything up to Lockdown. It's fallen back but that would make a good Sticky to keep right at the top for easy reference.
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Lightning Reflexes is pretty much identical to Synaptic Acceleration I thought? In what way is it different?
Lightning Reflexes stacks with Nothing! SA stacks with Reaction Enhancers, Drugs, & Increase Reflexes spell... so better in every way than Lightning Reflexes & Synaptic Booster 1. You can take a single level of it then supplement more Initiative Dice with Drugs or Spells.
someone really should do a spreadsheet what stacks with what
I would, if we only could come to some sort of consensus if
1) augmentation only applies to cyberware and bioware of if it also include spells, drugs, adept powers etc.
and if
2) increases to initiative actually mean anything that increases [physical] initiative (the sum of many parts) or if it only mean direct increases to physical initiative attribute or physical initiative dice.
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1. Augmentation only applies to Augmentations, as Lightning Reflexes shows the clear distinctionbetween Augmentation, Magical, & Chemical in its wording.
2. Initiative only applies to Initiative, not the nebulous 3 different attributes you keep trying to fit it into. Reaction is Reaction, Intuition is Intuition, & Initiative is Initiative. The Move by Wire System shows that Initiative isn't even bound by the +4 Augmented Bonus Maximum like a regular attribute is.
We had a good compatability chart going on a thread a while back that included everything up to Lockdown. It's fallen back but that would make a good Sticky to keep right at the top for easy reference.
Unless you are talking about Missions games, where it has been specifically clarified that cyber, bio, magic, drugs, and anything else that increase something 'augments' it.
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1. Augmentation only applies to Augmentations, as Lightning Reflexes shows the clear distinction between Augmentation, Magical, & Chemical in its wording.
Actually the wording for Lightning Reflexes doesn't say that at all. It talks about various ways to get "initiative enhancement":
"This quality is not cumulative with any other Initiative enhancement, be it technological, chemical, or magical."
And since it says initiative you can IMO probably stack reaction enhancements with it (see below).
2. Initiative only applies to Initiative, not the nebulous 3 different attributes you keep trying to fit it into. Reaction is Reaction, Intuition is Intuition, & Initiative is Initiative. The Move by Wire System shows that Initiative isn't even bound by the +4 Augmented Bonus Maximum like a regular attribute is.
I totally agree. I'm not sure why people want to read "Initiative" as other attributes.
Really. All these limitations are just placed there for crunch reasons not fluff. Like the 5d6 initiative dice limit or the +4 augmentation limit.
They just don't want people stacking to ridiculous levels, so the GM should just be the arbiter of all this. But generally speaking I agree with what Zhoul is saying here. When it says Reaction, it means reaction, when it says Initiative it means Initiative (not Reaction). They are two separate things despite that one is figured from the other. It seems clear to me, and highly reasonable that you can stack Boosted Reflexes with Reaction enhancers. You get a different result, with different costs and different limitations than just taking Wired.
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Lightning Reflexes is pretty much identical to Synaptic Acceleration I thought? In what way is it different?
Lightning Reflexes stacks with Nothing! SA stacks with Reaction Enhancers, Drugs, & Increase Reflexes spell... so better in every way than Lightning Reflexes & Synaptic Booster 1. You can take a single level of it then supplement more Initiative Dice with Drugs or Spells.
someone really should do a spreadsheet what stacks with what
I would, if we only could come to some sort of consensus if
1) augmentation only applies to cyberware and bioware of if it also include spells, drugs, adept powers etc.
and if
2) increases to initiative actually mean anything that increases [physical] initiative (the sum of many parts) or if it only mean direct increases to physical initiative attribute or physical initiative dice.
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1. Augmentation only applies to Augmentations, as Lightning Reflexes shows the clear distinctionbetween Augmentation, Magical, & Chemical in its wording.
2. Initiative only applies to Initiative, not the nebulous 3 different attributes you keep trying to fit it into. Reaction is Reaction, Intuition is Intuition, & Initiative is Initiative. The Move by Wire System shows that Initiative isn't even bound by the +4 Augmented Bonus Maximum like a regular attribute is.
We had a good compatability chart going on a thread a while back that included everything up to Lockdown. It's fallen back but that would make a good Sticky to keep right at the top for easy reference.
Unless you are talking about Missions games, where it has been specifically clarified that cyber, bio, magic, drugs, and anything else that increase something 'augments' it.
So why doesn't the book do that then? Or is because Missions is essentially an Official Houserule campaign? Which further makes the point that according to Core they aren't the same at all. Cause that's how I see it... since Missions restricts certain Qualities & other things in an effort to create a certain power level, it's Houserule not RAW. If Missions is really RAI, then there was a Splatbook that just came out called Chromed Flesh... that would have been the most appropriate place ever to address RAI to RAW.
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Unless you are talking about Missions games, where it has been specifically clarified that cyber, bio, magic, drugs, and anything else that increase something 'augments' it.
So why doesn't the book do that then? Or is because Missions is essentially an Official Houserule campaign? Which further makes the point that according to Core they aren't the same at all. Cause that's how I see it... since Missions restricts certain Qualities & other things in an effort to create a certain power level, it's Houserule not RAW. If Missions is really RAI, then there was a Splatbook that just came out called Chromed Flesh... that would have been the most appropriate place ever to address RAI to RAW.
Agreed, However, Mission's response to Chrome Flesh has not yet been released. We may see one before Gencon.
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Unless you are talking about Missions games, where it has been specifically clarified that cyber, bio, magic, drugs, and anything else that increase something 'augments' it.
So why doesn't the book do that then? Or is because Missions is essentially an Official Houserule campaign? Which further makes the point that according to Core they aren't the same at all. Cause that's how I see it... since Missions restricts certain Qualities & other things in an effort to create a certain power level, it's Houserule not RAW. If Missions is really RAI, then there was a Splatbook that just came out called Chromed Flesh... that would have been the most appropriate place ever to address RAI to RAW.
Agreed, However, Mission's response to Chrome Flesh has not yet been released. We may see one before Gencon.
That's just going to be more Houserules... I'm saying that if Missions is RAI then they should have included it into Chromed Flesh as RAW. If Catalyst wants all things that give enhancements to be considered Augments, then they should have addressed it. But they didn't, so by RAI & RAW they are different distinctions as has been made by Core and never redressed.
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SR5 could be better at what terminology they use. They interchangeable use different words for the same thing and the same word for different meanings. This make many of their rules ambiguous and unnecessarily hard to interpret correctly.
Searching for the word Augmentation throughout the entire book it is my reading that this is Cyberware and Bioware. And that the +4 limit mentioned on p. 94 only applies to cyberware and bioware as a blanket general rule. If a piece of cyberware or bioware can break this limit then it need to be a specific rule that override the general (most augmentations that increase attributes does not mention any limit... they don't have to since all augmentations obey the +4 general rule).
It is further my reading that spells, adept powers and chemical substances that increase attributes does not obey the +4 augmented blanket general rule. If a spell, adept power or chemical substance have a limit then there need to be a specific rule that say so (which is why most spells and adept powers that increase attributes do have this specific extra rule).
After that Missions came out with their interpretation where they extended the general blanket rule of a +4 limit to include all spells, adept powers, chemical substances etc.
This is why I am no longer sure if "augmentations" specifically only include cyberware and bioware or if "augmentations" just talk about "increases" / "enhancements" in general and include everything.
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K-10 & Custom Drugs both specifically mention that the +4 limit can't be broken with Drugs. Adept Powers are pretty self limiting in this regard, but hey if someone wanted to take a +6 to one physical attribute (depending on how much I liked them... sometimes it's nice to have inbuilt problems to make fun of how useless a character is) I'd definitely lobby they should be able to do it. If it was a friend I'd just explain how retarded it was to do that & help make a better character.
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Searching for the word Augmentation throughout the entire book it is my reading that this is Cyberware and Bioware. And that the +4 limit mentioned on p. 94 only applies to cyberware and bioware as a blanket general rule.
I read it like this also (cyber/bio-ware is augmentation). I mean hell.. there is a whole book called "Augmentation". However, I am guessing for crunch reasons RAI may well be that anything that increases an attribute is "augmentation", so you don't have peeps with unlimited stats.
It is further my reading that spells, adept powers and chemical substances that increase attributes does not obey the +4 augmented blanket general rule. If a spell, adept power or chemical substance have a limit then there need to be a specific rule that say so (which is why most spells and adept powers that increase attributes do have this specific extra rule).
The description for Increase Attribute in SR5 it says "The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum". So clearly they didn't want magic to exceed the +4.
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My reading of how drugs interact with things is that they are a type of augmentation with regards to mechanics, albeit temporary ones. Does this sound wrong?
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My reading of how drugs interact with things is that they are a type of augmentation with regards to mechanics, albeit temporary ones. Does this sound wrong?
That very well could be RAI but it sure isn't RAW... and the cluster fuck the Drugs Section of Chromed Flesh turned into definitely didn't change their basic operating system. We did get a ridiculous Drug Interaction Table that quickly becomes lethal using a Drug &;Stimm Patches... don't ever add a Trauma Patch on top of that. Bleeding out & dying slow will let your character live longer.
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Here, take all of this:
<hands zhoul crystal meth, cocaine, crack cocaine, 8oz of whiskey, herion, and a joint>
Now, drink, snort, smoke all that.
<stands back, starts watch>
In about 2 minutes you'll feel you're on top of the world.
In 20 minutes you'll be doing the funky chicken on the ground.
In 23 minutes you'll be dead.
People OD on drugs of ALL sorts at an alarming rate. I can't find it anymore, but I remember reading at the LA hospitals see about 500 cases of overdosing a DAY!
Heck, thanks to some really bad heroin in the BC coast and 70 OD deaths in 5 days, they issued a public service announcment here just last week.
Now, I havn't seen the drug rules yet (and won't till the physical book comes out) but I would expect mixing drugs to get lethal right quick!
In fact, in BC the 2 biggest drugs are Pot and booze. What a lot of people don't seem to get is that this is actually a VERY lethal combination! Normally when you drink, you will usually reach a point where you just can not drink any more, and you body starts rejecting the alcohol. (IE: you're shit faced, and start vomitting).
However, THC retards your vomit reflex, thus allowing you to keep that full belly of booze, and even continue to drink! And.... you get alcohol poisoning.
It happens so much here in BC that we even have a name for it:
"Green alcohol poisoning"
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Wow... there's so much wrong there I'm not sure where to start. Ok... Pot & Booze can be lethal but only to idiot kids who don't know any better. Anyone with a lick of sense & experience that's never going to be an issue,real junkies aren't even doing pot & booze. Then you mentioned Bad Drugs... the Drugs themselves are bad, which seeing as how we have the option for Pharmaceutical Grade & Designer Grade even above Standard Grade, Bad Drugs are the issue there either. Finally your original example... the Drug Interaction Table would cover that. Where taking Drugs that effect the same Attributes causes heavy Stun Damage. The 8oz of Whiskey is the most dangerous thing there unless I'm being given what would count as 8 doses of every other Drug in the game as well.
Which leads me to wonder... do you have any extensive drug use experience? Cause I don't see why I would have any reason to do all those different drugs at once. That's idiot kid who doesn't know any better behavior again. So I shoot up the Crystal Meth (liked Crank better for injecting)... the Coke/Crack is just annoying to do now, the whiskey/herion/weed are all downers. So there might be a Social reason to have some liquor or weed, but that's just a glass in my hand or pass the joint around at the party thing not idiot kid behavior of drinking 8 shots of liquor which is only going to ruin the high. But there are drugs on that list that do go together quite well... a Speedball, which is where you shoot up the herion & coke. Great coke rush but instead of a quick crash you have a nice slow slide into a nod.
The old Drug Interaction effects from core are way better than the new Drug interaction Table which means you can't use Stimm or Trauma Patches without problems. Sure took much of anything is bad... I have a job as a Commercial Diver where things like O2 Toxicity & Nitrogen Narcocious are serious issues that need to be watched out for. Where the very air we breathe can become poisonous or a narcotic. But to make the Mechanics of the game that punishing is not right. To prevent the use of Stimm & Trauma Patches as well as messing up some good speedballs like Cram/Psyche, not useful.
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Wow... there's so much wrong there I'm not sure where to start. Ok... Pot & Booze can be lethal but only to idiot kids who don't know any better. Anyone with a lick of sense & experience that's never going to be an issue,real junkies aren't even doing pot & booze. Then you mentioned Bad Drugs... the Drugs themselves are bad, which seeing as how we have the option for Pharmaceutical Grade & Designer Grade even above Standard Grade, Bad Drugs are the issue there either. Finally your original example... the Drug Interaction Table would cover that. Where taking Drugs that effect the same Attributes causes heavy Stun Damage. The 8oz of Whiskey is the most dangerous thing there unless I'm being given what would count as 8 doses of every other Drug in the game as well.
Which leads me to wonder... do you have any extensive drug use experience? Cause I don't see why I would have any reason to do all those different drugs at once. That's idiot kid who doesn't know any better behavior again. So I shoot up the Crystal Meth (liked Crank better for injecting)... the Coke/Crack is just annoying to do now, the whiskey/herion/weed are all downers. So there might be a Social reason to have some liquor or weed, but that's just a glass in my hand or pass the joint around at the party thing not idiot kid behavior of drinking 8 shots of liquor which is only going to ruin the high. But there are drugs on that list that do go together quite well... a Speedball, which is where you shoot up the herion & coke. Great coke rush but instead of a quick crash you have a nice slow slide into a nod.
The old Drug Interaction effects from core are way better than the new Drug interaction Table which means you can't use Stimm or Trauma Patches without problems. Sure took much of anything is bad... I have a job as a Commercial Diver where things like O2 Toxicity & Nitrogen Narcocious are serious issues that need to be watched out for. Where the very air we breathe can become poisonous or a narcotic. But to make the Mechanics of the game that punishing is not right. To prevent the use of Stimm & Trauma Patches as well as messing up some good speedballs like Cram/Psyche, not useful.
Sheesh!
It's good to see you have an active imagination.
Tell me, are you familiar with the ADC requirements for random drug testing?
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Hey, you're the one saying "why can't I take a stimulant, a depressant, a cogaulant, and a amphedamine without problems??"
ANY time you mix a cocktail of meds together, bad things happen fast.
There are many combinations of perscriptions for average, every day drugs that lead to lethal consiquences.
Taking a Viagra while on nitrates results in lethal low blood pressure.
Taking amphedamines while on kidney medication results in liver damage.
Many meds for mental disordes have a severe adverse reaction when combined with alcohol.
My father's eye medication, his goudt meds, and his blood pressure meds caused him to go into cardiac arrest. - and those were prescribed by his fucking doctor!!
So yes, I have SEEN first hand what drug interactions can do.
EVERY YEAR, I attend at least 2 services for fallen brothers/sisters who die from overdoses, be it drugs or alcohol. (The industrial constuction trades have a high incidence of drug and alcohol use.)
It takes far less to kill you then you think when you start mixing drugs. And the new drug table in Chrome Flesh reflects this. Is it perfect? No, but it IS more realistic.
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Sheesh!
It's good to see you have an active imagination.
Tell me, are you familiar with the ADC requirements for random drug testing?
Unfortunately none of that is based on my imagination, I was not a good kid. But I've never gotten O2 Toxicity at work (that's a bad time if it doesn't kill you & you have to stay in a hyperbaric chamber for at 3 days minimum) but I've definitely been Narc'd at work with isn't that dangerous cause the supervisor is yelling at you in your dive helmet. SCUBA diving it's scarier... saw a video of a guy in Poland who got confused and walked down instead of up reading his depth gauge wrong til he died.
Hey, you're the one saying "why can't I take a stimulant, a depressant, a cogaulant, and a amphedamine without problems??"
ANY time you mix a cocktail of meds together, bad things happen fast.
There are many combinations of perscriptions for average, every day drugs that lead to lethal consiquences.
Taking a Viagra while on nitrates results in lethal low blood pressure.
Taking amphedamines while on kidney medication results in liver damage.
Many meds for mental disordes have a severe adverse reaction when combined with alcohol.
My father's eye medication, his goudt meds, and his blood pressure meds caused him to go into cardiac arrest. - and those were prescribed by his fucking doctor!!
So yes, I have SEEN first hand what drug interactions can do.
EVERY YEAR, I attend at least 2 services for fallen brothers/sisters who die from overdoses, be it drugs or alcohol. (The industrial constuction trades have a high incidence of drug and alcohol use.)
It takes far less to kill you then you think when you start mixing drugs. And the new drug table in Chrome Flesh reflects this. Is it perfect? No, but it IS more realistic.
Yes... there are of course bad Drug interactions but they shouldn't be a surprise every time. OD's happen for 3 main reasons.... the Drugs themselves are bad (not an issue if using Standard, Pharmaceutical, Designer Grade), people are shooting up their regular doses in unfamiliar settings because your body doesn't have it's normal start up period (why most rock stars or actors die right at the start of tours or finishing movies), or they are trying to kill themselves on purpose. The amount of people who actually die from doing drugs in comparison to the amount of people who do drugs is a very small percentage.
Things like Nitrates & Viagra are dangerous not because they are that dangerous but because it's an old person with a weak heart already. The majority of prescription drug dangers come from the fact that those aren't healthy people taking them. They don't have the resilience to have any minor issues go wrong because their body is already not functioning correctly. A young man can take Viagra & Nitrates (though why he's taking nitrates is a mystery) and the worst that's going to happen is that he feels woozy.
I'm again trying to figure out why you imagine junkies are taking all these different drugs simultaneously? Sure I had those kinds of days but they were very rare and it was over the course of the entire day. Where me & my roommate had drank beers in the morning, got some crystal for lunch, snorted some coke when our other roommate got home in the afternoon, taken some X when a buddy came over that evening, smoked some weed & drank at the party that night. Sure my roommate that I started the morning with who had physical tourettes ended up spazzing out and I had to sit with him and blow weed in his face till his body calmed down for about an hour... but I was fine. So was he once we got his tourettes to stop acting up, which again is a case of a preexisting problem being exasperated not something that was inherently caused by the drugs in the first place. So using unhealthy peoples reactions in comparison to healthy peoples reaction to the exact same stimuli is disingenuous at best.
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I agree that the drug interactions are unrealistic, especially for higher grade drugs (pharmaceutical). But we don't know what these turbo-future-drugs contain... Someone who knows about medicine should at least be somewhat able to predict the kind of side effects that would happen.
On the other hand, combining two drugs is generally safe - the worst that will happen is the doubling of the crash effects. Mixing three or four drugs gets dangerous really fast though. It may be needed for game balace.
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The more I read the initiative, reaction and intuition augments in CR the more I feel that the essence costs for a lot of the original Augments in the core book are either too high or I just don't understand the limits of Essence and item availability like the writers do.
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Finn, part of the problem comes from some of the more iconic cyberware (Wired Reflexes, Muscle Replacement, Bone Lacing, Dermal Plating, etc.) tend to have grandfathered in Essence costs. There would be complaints if you were to lower those costs, even by calling them advances in technology. Especially when it's something that's done pretty much the exact same thing each edition.
One of the best ways to go essence wise, if you're looking at building a tanky augmentation char with stat boosts, is to go for a cyberbody. Because right now you can get Titanium Bone Lacing and level 6 Dermal for 12 extra soak and level 4 muscle toner/augmentation for a total of 6.1 Essence or you can grab Orthoskin 4 for 2 less Essence, or Muscle Replacement for 8.5. A full cyberbody costs 6.25 and can get higher armor and either more health and almost as good of max stats or equal (possibly better when we get more clarification on Redliner) max stats. Plus more. The downside? You're probably going to be pretty obvious.
For reflexes... well Synaptic Booster is King in terms of Essence Friendliness at level 3. Synaptic Accelerator costs less Essence but only has one level, but it can be stacked with Reaction Enhancers. Wired Reflexes can be turned off unlike the other ones and can be stacked with Reaction Enhancers. Move-by-Wire has the highest average boost by itself (10-16, avg. 14 vs 3-18 avg. 11 for Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Booster) as well as acting as Skillwires. The big problem comes in the difference of Essence cost. 1.5 vs. 5 is a no brainer most of the time, doubly so when it's harder to detect.
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highest physical initiative out of chargen is probably adept.
highest armor out of chargen is probably cyborg.
highest attribute enhancement out of chargen is probably chrome/bioware.
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That's about how it is, Xenon. You can have as high, or higher average, as the adept with chrome/bioware... but you're looking at spending most of your augmentation money and taking the Restricted Gear quality.
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There is also a point where focusing on armor becomes moot.
While atmor and "soak" ability is important, comes a time that focusing your resources solely on armor and soaking comes at the price of other defensive options. (Such as magical resistence or elemental resistence, matrix...)
So don't forget to spend some time developing your other skills, abilities, and defenses.
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Finn, part of the problem comes from some of the more iconic cyberware (Wired Reflexes, Muscle Replacement, Bone Lacing, Dermal Plating, etc.) tend to have grandfathered in Essence costs. There would be complaints if you were to lower those costs, even by calling them advances in technology. Especially when it's something that's done pretty much the exact same thing each edition.
I can understand that, I haven't played since Second and Third ed, I think 5E is great for simplicity compared to the older stuff. They have changed a lot of the essence costs for Cyberware though, and the Nuyen costs, availability is odd considering the mechanics are different, so I can't really compare that. Bone Lacing is quite different from the other editions that I'm familiar with. I've never played 4th so I assume that a lot of the stats are just copy/paste from that edition.
I guess if they can reduce the essence cost for something like Bone Lacing why not Wired Reflexes?
Bone Lacing 3rd
Plastic .5 7,500¥
Aluminum 1.15 25,000¥
Titanium 2.25 75,000¥
Bone Lacing 4th Dunno ???
Bone Lacing 5th
Plastic 0.5 — 8R 8,000¥
Aluminum 1 — 12R 18,000¥
Titanium 1.5 — 16R 30,000¥
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Its true some cyber has changed through editions (looking at you MbW), but there is usually also a mechanical change that comes with the reduced/changed costs.
Bone lacing in 3e was very kick ass as I recall (been a while). Almost to the point of a 'must have' piece of cyber!
In 5e, bone lacing is still good, but I don't consider it a 'must have' anymore.
And some little loopholes have been closed, others have opened.
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Only thing I think I would change would be the Essence cost of Wired Reflexes and Move-by-Wire, since there is Synaptic Booster that costs ~ as much nuyen as Alphaware versions of those but costs less then Deltaware versions when it comes to Essence. I certainly wouldn't halve their costs, but dropping them to 1 Essence a rank or 1.25 per rank probably wouldn't be unreasonable.
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I may have to do that for my homegame Bul. The classic 'ware just doesn't seem quite right when compared with all the Bio or magic options.
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Only ones that seem way off, to me at least, are the initiative Enhancers. Personally I would go with the Essence 1.25, given that both give more options then the Bioware version and cyberware is supposed to be more invasive.
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Wired 1 winds up in a lot of builds that are shorter on cash then essence. Wired 2 plus Reaction 3 is the only combo I'm aware of that lets you beat the normal +4 augmented limit for a stat, don't underestimate that wireless bonus.
Even after chrome flesh you'll still see builds with a place for these. Wired 1 is an easy pick for most AR Deckers, or Samurai with a lower than A resources. Sammies with lots of Bioware aren't going too mind the Essence hit of Wired 2 and for 149k you can't beat the performance. Wired is the "Higher Essence, Lower Nuyen" option is all.
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Yes, but 3x the essence cost tends to make it significantly less attractive. Wired 2 only costs a little less then Synaptic 2 (Wired 2 is 149k as you said, but Synaptic 2 is only 40k more) for an essence cost of 3x as much.
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Yes, but 3x the essence cost tends to make it significantly less attractive. Wired 2 only costs a little less then Synaptic 2 (Wired 2 is 149k as you said, but Synaptic 2 is only 40k more) for an essence cost of 3x as much.
Yeah that is what made me do a double take on Wired Reflexes. I could see 2x the essence but 3x and a higher availability so you can't even get Grade 2 Alpha and not much of a price gap at chargen bugs me.
I should just create a new thread. I feel bad hijacking this and going on a tangent.
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With Wired Reflexes you can still increase Reaction with Reaction Enhancers. With Synaptic Boost, you're done. For almost the exact same amount of Nuyen you have 3 more Reaction, at a cost of more Essence. And you don't need to take Reaction Enhancers at Chargen, they're a "cheap" augment that can be picked up later, without removing the Wired Reflexes.
Synaptic Boost also can't be bought used at most tables. Wired can if you need to push the Essence to Nuyen ratio even more in one direction.
My thinking is you've got several options and as long as each option has a niche, you're probably alright. It's the stuff that nobody takes that needs to be tweaked the most.
Anyway, houserule away!
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With Wired Reflexes you can still increase Reaction with Reaction Enhancers. With Synaptic Boost, you're done. For almost the exact same amount of Nuyen you have 3 more Reaction, at a cost of more Essence. And you don't need to take Reaction Enhancers at Chargen, they're a "cheap" augment that can be picked up later, without removing the Wired Reflexes.
Synaptic Boost also can't be bought used at most tables. Wired can if you need to push the Essence to Nuyen ratio even more in one direction.
My thinking is you've got several options and as long as each option has a niche, you're probably alright. It's the stuff that nobody takes that needs to be tweaked the most.
Anyway, houserule away!
Wired + Reaction Enhancers is a lot more essence compared to Synaptic Boosters. 3.9 is a lot. Remember, that essence you'd save by going Synaptic can be turned into Nuyen by making other pieces of 'ware you're installing (with more favorable tradeoffs) lower grade instead.
You can buy Wired Reflexes 2 used, but that's even more hideously expensive Essence-wise at 3.75 (not counting the Reaction Enhancers). You can't buy rating 3 used (well, you could but you'd die)
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I think all costs are good as is (nuyen and Essence).
With 5th having the theme of 'what price', everything is great. Do I want maximum possible Reaction (at cost of Essence; Wired+RE), or slightly more expensive but Essence friendly (Synaptic), or greater average Initiative range plus free skillwires at cost of being spastic (M-b-W)?
With 4th edition rules being what they were (augmented max = 1.5x Attribute), M-b-W Became the go to piece, period. Now, depending on your build, each of the top 3 Reaction/Initiative boosters is viable (IMO).
I think if you drop cybered Essence costs, it tips the balance of favor. If anything, I'd drop nuyen costs (for Wired and/or M-b-W) and leave Essence.
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Wired 2 + Reaction Enhancers 3 is the only way to get +5 Reaction.
If you're trying to buff Reaction, and if you're a combat character you probably are, Wired + Reaction Enhancers are the best Reaction and initiative buff you can get. And you can get Wired 2/Reaction 3 as a starting character. Any other combo available to a starting character has less Reaction. That has to have a high cost somewhere, or it becomes the default selection for everyone. And then "Why Synaptic Booster, Why Synaptic Accelerator, Why Boosted Reflexes..." becomes the question.
As the numbers sit right now, each one of those systems has a niche.
As I said, houserule away. But crank out 6 Essence worth of 'ware for 3 different Samurai. One with Wired, one with Synaptic Accelerator, one with Synaptic Booster. I've been fiddling with these since Chrome Flesh dropped, the final results are pretty close. *shrug*
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or go physical adept take improved reflexes 3 and still have stuff left over for other stuff
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Wired 2 + Reaction Enhancers 3 is the only way to get +5 Reaction.....And you can get Wired 2/Reaction 3 as a starting character.
Reaction Enhancers 3 is Availability 15R. You can't get that at CharGen unless you use the Restricted Gear quality or build a Prime Runner. Both of which break or throw off calibration of the base game balance, which when you start doing math isn't really balanced at all when you compare Magic to Bioware to Cyberware.
Anyhow new topic to quit Hijacking! http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21515.0
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Used RE 3 is a pretty common sight on chargen sheets.
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Horrible thought.
Ever wonder where that Used Ware comes from?
I mean sure, the majority should be from regular recycling going on, especially with the lower end stuff because it is assumed it gets replaced with better as funds allow.
But who switches out their RE 3?
Yes some is recovered from folk dying, but are there really that many folk with the best version still getting gakked that readily that its so available?
Remember while the PCs may be juggling numbers in chargen to get it early, most folk using it probably build up to it and those folk should be surviving a bit better.
What if that Used RE 3 is intentionally designed to be defective? Works fine 99% of the time under normal circumstances.
Then when it detects that are you are in a real crunch situation, maybe through a hidden biomonitor or similar, it cuts out leaving you hanging at a critical moment...
(like the Killswitch in Mysterious Implants from sr4 runner companion)
Then to add insult to injury, once it detects your being flatlined, it turns it's wireless to ON and lets Tamanous to come on over for a pickup?
A quick cleanup and retuning and it's ready for the next PC stooge for implanting. :P
So always be sure to check it's WareFax™ history and don't get a Cyber-Lemon. ;)
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Used RE 3 is a pretty common sight on chargen sheets.
Used Cyber/Bio is Gross! :P
But Yes, I'm Guilty of using it all the time.
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With the appearance of Omegaware in Chrome Flesh, I fully expect that most 'Used' Reaction Enhancers are actually knock offs of Standard.
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I think all costs are good as is (nuyen and Essence).
With 5th having the theme of 'what price', everything is great. Do I want maximum possible Reaction (at cost of Essence; Wired+RE), or slightly more expensive but Essence friendly (Synaptic), or greater average Initiative range plus free skillwires at cost of being spastic (M-b-W)?
I like that Sams aren't basically done with all growth ever after chargen, unlike 4th.
But the fact is, they probably are in some ways, because the changes to Essence cost were nothing short of insane, and functionally replacing most of your ware with higher-grade ware isn't feasible given the cost and normal payouts, and the normal life of a game.
The game is still Magicrun even though magic got a nerf. Chrome didn't really need much of a nerf, but it still got one. Magic is still clearly out ahead.
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With 4th edition rules being what they were (augmented max = 1.5x Attribute), M-b-W Became the go to piece, period. Now, depending on your build, each of the top 3 Reaction/Initiative boosters is viable (IMO).
MBW was the best reflex enhancement for mundanes, but since characters did not start out as millionaires it was like an epic-level skill: Best choice there is, but only available after a long time ;)