Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: adzling on <07-10-15/1453:41>
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So I have been spending some time to help my group optimize their character builds given the new rules released recently and their character's goals/ concept.
One thing that keeps coming up is the must have utility of JoaT from Run Faster.
For 2 Karma at chargen you get a 1 karma discount from all skills lower than 6 raised/ bought post chargen.
Because almost all of our characters (except the hyper-specialized mage) purchase many ancillary skills after chargen at low ranks (below 6) this has become the go to quality for everyone on the group.
It's particularly powerful when you consider you can just buy off the skill for 4 karma post-chargen when you have accumulate enough low level, ancillary skills and want to start raising those primary skills.
It's just so amazing from a karma efficiency standpoint it has become a must have.
thoughts?
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It also makes it harder to get skills above 6 post CharGen. It's great when you need some misc skills so you won't default, but it sucks when you want to increase the dice pools on your primaries.
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Borderline must have. I love this quality because I love characters with a wide array of capabilities more than I do hyper-specialized characters. However, one of the pieces of advice you see constantly getting doled out on various forums is that you have to specialize in Shadowrun; generalists aren't good. I don't totally subscribe to this, but there's some truth to it. Characters with narrow (mechanically-speaking) specialties like mages and deckers can't really take this because they have skills that essentially have to get above 6 once play starts. Gun-based characters may or may not a problem with this quality based on the weapon of choice--mode of fire makes a big difference here. Mundane melee characters are in a similar boat as deckers and mages.
But yeah, it's great. I'm looking to stack it with Linguist and learning stimulus nanites to know all the things.
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Yeah but my point is Hibiki that with it only cost 4 karma to buy off post chargen you can get it and save a bunch of karma then buy it off cheaply when your reader to go past 5.
Yeah Kincaid I hear you, and our characters are optimized for their primary roles.
What JoaT gives them is the ability to round out their character very cheaply.
This is especially powerful if your build is Attributes A as you only need a couple of points in the skills tied to your high stats to have decent dice pools of 9+.
Our Technomancer is considering using it in conjunction with Renraku Tradejack and a machine sprite to be the ultimate JoaT.
she is getting 13 dice in any activesoft she uses.
With rating 1 in almost every skill in game she doesn't need to default, many of which can take advantage of a machine sprite in the tech being used with the skill resulting in non activesoft skills at rating 1 having dice pools of @10 dice!
But yeah, it's great. I'm looking to stack it with Linguist and learning stimulus nanites to know all the things.
eek!
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I know you can "buy off" Negative Qualities... but you can "buy off" Positive Qualities too??? Like you get the 4 Karma back you spent on it? As someone else mentioned... their are certain Characters that don't really benefit from this Quality. But others who only need to really focus on 1-2 skills to raise above 6 can definitely benefit from the bonus of having a secondary skill backdrop.
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You cannot, by RAW, buy off positive qualities, only negative ones. This would be totally broken if you allowed that.
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The main issue I run into with JoaT is that at chargen it's easy to grab several skills at low level. Once play starts you're limited to Logic / 2 skills per period of down time. So you're channeled into focusing on a couple of skills for most characters per period of down time. So if you've got a decent list of skills you want to grab a point or two in you wind up waiting for a few runs before you can just grab that first point.
So you're either saving a handful of Karma and not having those filler lowbie skills. Or you're blowing off potential savings from JoaT.
Otherwise, yes, fantastic quality for many runners as you're typically spreading out, not continuously raising one set of skills.
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Once play starts you're limited to Logic / 2 skills per period of down time
Eek! I completely forgot about this while advancing my Missions PC... ugh
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My favorite for A attributes characters too.
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ahh good point thanks for reminding me of that!
Then yes I agree JoaT is fine as is.
I will need to inform my players ;-)
You cannot, by RAW, buy off positive qualities, only negative ones. This would be totally broken if you allowed that.
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It's kind of a moot point for JoaT since it's not a neg quality, but you can't just buy off negative qualities automatically either. You have to first get GM permission and then meet any stipulated requirements they set forth. (CRB pg 106) If JoaT could be bought off, then GMs would be operating well within their duties to make it a pretty tough quality to get rid of.
On top of that, I believe the rule in Missions is anything that is "with GM permission" is not allowed unless explicitly allowed (like Exceptional attribute), so buying off neg qualities at all is not permitted. (Yay for Allergen Tolerance!)
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Well, JoaT doesn't seem to affect skill groups. That would be a way to avoid the penalties. But usually you'll start to rise attributes when you've reached the discount limit or invest in specialization.
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Once play starts you're limited to Logic / 2 skills per period of down time
Eek! I completely forgot about this while advancing my Missions PC... ugh
Pretty sure the only reason that limit is in the game is JoaT. At 6 Karma per run, Logic/2 skills isn't much of a limitation, unless new skills only cost you 1 karma each :)
With JoaT you could conceivably walk out of chargen with 7 Karma, get 6 from your first run, then buy 13 new skills at 1 during your first downtime. Not what 13 skills at 1 you're picking up that would be so disruptive. But really, only reason I can think of for that limit to be in place is to slow down JoaT.
I have to think at most tables the limit is completely ignored, overlooked, or forgotten.
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Once play starts you're limited to Logic / 2 skills per period of down time
Eek! I completely forgot about this while advancing my Missions PC... ugh
Pretty sure the only reason that limit is in the game is JoaT. At 6 Karma per run, Logic/2 skills isn't much of a limitation, unless new skills only cost you 1 karma each :)
With JoaT you could conceivably walk out of chargen with 7 Karma, get 6 from your first run, then buy 13 new skills at 1 during your first downtime. Not what 13 skills at 1 you're picking up that would be so disruptive. But really, only reason I can think of for that limit to be in place is to slow down JoaT.
I have to think at most tables the limit is completely ignored, overlooked, or forgotten.
Limit is Core & JoaT is Run Faster... doubtful that the cart came before the horse here
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Once play starts you're limited to Logic / 2 skills per period of down time
Pretty sure the only reason that limit is in the game is JoaT. At 6 Karma per run, Logic/2 skills isn't much of a limitation, unless new skills only cost you 1 karma each :)
With JoaT you could conceivably walk out of chargen with 7 Karma, get 6 from your first run, then buy 13 new skills at 1 during your first downtime. Not what 13 skills at 1 you're picking up that would be so disruptive. But really, only reason I can think of for that limit to be in place is to slow down JoaT.
Huh. I never thought of that as a limitation, but more of a special concession for training skills due to the long training times required at high skill levels. They probably wanted to let people train multiple skills at a time, but didn't want to say "as many as you want simultaneously". Logic/2 probably seemed like a good compromise.
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Training Time for a Level-1 skill is only 1 day, so those 13 skill points would take 2 weeks to accomplish at Logic-2.
The big issue is when its Rank-5+ and its weeks per skill, then having Logic-3+ is VERY useful so you are training them at the same time instead of in a row.
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Training Time for a Level-1 skill is only 1 day, so those 13 skill points would take 2 weeks to accomplish at Logic-2.
The big issue is when its Rank-5+ and its weeks per skill, then having Logic-3+ is VERY useful so you are training them at the same time instead of in a row.
In addition to the 2 weeks it also requires 13 "downtime periods". So 13 runs, plus two weeks.
P. 105
" If the character chooses to focus on improving only skills during a downtime, the character may choose to learn or improve a number of skills up to their Logic rating divided by 2 (round up). "
So, Logic 1 or Logic 2 you can only learn or improve one skill per downtime, basically, per run.
And you don't train multiple skills at the same time, each skill takes whatever days/weeks. So if you've got two different skills that are going to take a week each, you need two weeks of downtime. The Logic/2 limit really means nothing once you get to higher skill levels and you're spending 10+ Karma and weeks to train. Heck, it becomes basically meaningless once you're buying skills from 1 to 2 if you're getting around 6 karma per run. Just this tiny little window where it's annoying as hell, then suddenly meaningless. Like virginity.
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A character may raise the Rating of their Active, Knowledge, or Language skills up by a maximum of 3 rating points per any one downtime. To raise the skill(s) any further, they have to wait for another period of downtime.
The Logic/2 is the number of skills you can train simultaneously, but you can train as many of them sequentially as you like. You are just limited to raising each one up by 3 max.
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So, Logic 1 or Logic 2 you can only learn or improve one skill per downtime, basically, per run.
And you don't train multiple skills at the same time, each skill takes whatever days/weeks. So if you've got two different skills that are going to take a week each, you need two weeks of downtime.
I always assumed the one physical/one mental limit on attributes was simultaneous as well as the Logic/2 limit when dedicating yourself to skill training, but to your point, the text never actually says "simultaneously".
However, after rereading the section on pg 105 I still think those training times are simultaneous because of the way the distinctions are made for training skill groups and specializations. For skill groups: "A character ... cannot learn or improve any other attributes the same time" And for specializations: "Specializations ... cannot be learned at the same time as anything else." It's kind of a proof by negation. If these two cases are special because they can't do other training "at the same time", then the norm must be to train things at the same time as each other.
I can see how you could interpret it that way, but if that were the case I think they would have said "in the same downtime" for the restrictions on specializations and skill groups instead of restricting them with the wording "at the same time". Also, FWIW most educational institutions have students take several classes at the same time so the simultaneous learning thing doesn't strike me as too far fetched.
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So, Logic 1 or Logic 2 you can only learn or improve one skill per downtime, basically, per run.
And you don't train multiple skills at the same time, each skill takes whatever days/weeks. So if you've got two different skills that are going to take a week each, you need two weeks of downtime.
I always assumed the one physical/one mental limit on attributes was simultaneous as well as the Logic/2 limit when dedicating yourself to skill training, but to your point, the text never actually says "simultaneously".
However, after rereading the section on pg 105 I still think those training times are simultaneous because of the way the distinctions are made for training skill groups and specializations. For skill groups: "A character ... cannot learn or improve any other attributes the same time" And for specializations: "Specializations ... cannot be learned at the same time as anything else." It's kind of a proof by negation. If these things two cases are special because they can't do other training "at the same time", then the norm must be to train things at the same time as each other.
I can see how you could interpret it that way, but if that were the case I think they would have said "in the same downtime" for the restrictions on specializations and skill groups instead of restricting them with the wording "at the same time". Also, FWIW most educational institutions have students take several classes at the same time so the simultaneous learning thing doesn't strike me as too far fetched.
FasterN8 totally won this debate... his point about the stated negatives of Specialization & Skill Groups thereby proves the standard for which all others functions. If those CAN'T be trained with other skills than by definition everything else can be trained at the same time.
Gotta love Logical Assertions!
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This is my quick reference list:
Training concurrently, pick one:
* One mental and one physical attribute
* One attribute and one skill
* (Logic / 2) skills
* Skill specialization
* Skill group
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A character may raise the Rating of their Active, Knowledge, or Language skills up by a maximum of 3 rating points per any one downtime. To raise the skill(s) any further, they have to wait for another period of downtime.
The Logic/2 is the number of skills you can train simultaneously, but you can train as many of them sequentially as you like. You are just limited to raising each one up by 3 max.
If that is the design intent then the one sentence that mentions the Logic/2 limit is ... I'll say, poorly written. Because it doesn't actually say the things you say at all. *shrug*
Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if the design intent was very different from what the rule actually says because "...during a downtime.." is a bit of nonsense if there is already a time requirement for training. However, there really isn't a lot of linguistic wiggle room in the sentence that defines the limit.
Logically it makes no sense, because you can train the exact same number of skills during a six month down time as a two day downtime. Which is why the rule stuck in my head. It's very silly, and likely doesn't actually say what the RAI was.
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Seems like you could also train during runs, if you were driving a lot or spending lots of time on the matrix.
-g
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Because almost all of our characters (except the hyper-specialized mage) purchase many ancillary skills after chargen at low ranks (below 6) this has become the go to quality for everyone on the group.
Table experience isn't data. It's hard to make a blanket statement like this into "JoaT is the best quality in the game."
I rank things like Codeslinger, Quick Healer, and RiM higher for that reason - regardless of build or table style, they will have incredible utility. JoaT is dependent on a particular play style which I wouldn't say is "the norm."
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Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if the design intent was very different from what the rule actually says because "...during a downtime.." is a bit of nonsense if there is already a time requirement for training. However, there really isn't a lot of linguistic wiggle room in the sentence that defines the limit.
Logically it makes no sense, because you can train the exact same number of skills during a six month down time as a two day downtime. Which is why the rule stuck in my head. It's very silly, and likely doesn't actually say what the RAI was.
I gotta agree. The whole "per downtime" idea is total nonsense for the reasons you state.
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The whole "per downtime" thing is common in many games. One of the intents (because there are many) is that it discourages karma (or xp or whatever) hoarding.
Table experience isn't data. It's hard to make a blanket statement like this into "JoaT is the best quality in the game."
I rank things like Codeslinger, Quick Healer, and RiM higher for that reason - regardless of build or table style, they will have incredible utility. JoaT is dependent on a particular play style which I wouldn't say is "the norm."
Indeed. It would seem that math could give a more objective take on the value of JoaT, since its apparent benefit is karma efficiency.. It is difficult to value its drawbacks though, like not having necessary skills while hoping to get them at a discount later.
My best guess (since the math would be build specific) is that it favors skills E bioadepts (a bias I believe the OP has) and shorter chronicle duration. For a specialist or game running for years it seems like it would be terrible.
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I would say if your skill is at 6, there's not a whole lot gained by plinking away at raising it much further, especially given Limits. For magical characters, the best use of karma is initiation, Magic increase, and/or gaining more spells. Same for TMs with their Resonance stuff. Now, for mundanes, at a certain point you probably have more than enough 1-2 rank skills to round yourself out and probably will start turning those 6s into 7s etc, but that's more out of a lack of anything else to do with the karma aside from buying Edge.
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This!
I would say if your skill is at 6, there's not a whole lot gained by plinking away at raising it much further, especially given Limits. For magical characters, the best use of karma is initiation, Magic increase, and/or gaining more spells. Same for TMs with their Resonance stuff. Now, for mundanes, at a certain point you probably have more than enough 1-2 rank skills to round yourself out and probably will start turning those 6s into 7s etc, but that's more out of a lack of anything else to do with the karma aside from buying Edge.
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Jack of all Trades front loads a character: You get a discount at the the beginning of your career but you have to pay interest later.
As long as you aren't going higher than 7 with a skill you save karma. If you max one skill to 12 you pay 9 karma more than a character without this quality.
So for every maxed skill you'd need to invest into two skills that you only advance to 5 to still be profitable.
That actually doesn't sound to bad.
Especially if you consider that you probably want to increase your attributes first and that there are lots and lots of qualities that will also improve your dice pools.
Adepts love this quality even more: They can instead initiate and improve their skills through improved ability (which is probably cheaper than raising them normally - especially if you get your skills into qi-foci: 12 karma for a lvl. 6 focus
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And just how many different skills do you want your character to invest in? Is it more than they would have been able to take with priority A or B in skills? The part I'm having trouble understanding is how is the PQ so valuable when its value appears to be in karma efficiency and getting the most out of it requires making extremely (karma) inefficient choices with priorities (assuming skills D or E). Are there even enough skills to make up for that difference?
Don't get me wrong, I can see great value to the team in taking 3-4 points in skills for teamwork tests or just to a few point here and there to round out a character or not have to default on rolls (or even be able to make them). JoaT also looks more appealing for Troll/Ork/Dwarf metatypes in priority chargen.
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The most efficient way to spend your skill points, regardless of priority, is by maxing out skills to 6 and picking up low skills with Karma. JoaT actually makes that more efficient.
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FYI joat only applies post chargen iirc.
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Yes, but it still makes low ranking skills cheaper ;)
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Because it only works post chargen it's helpful to buy skills you don't have or raise lower ones.
If you have skills priority d or e it's a god send to round out character in play.
And just how many different skills do you want your character to invest in? Is it more than they would have been able to take with priority A or B in skills? The part I'm having trouble understanding is how is the PQ so valuable when its value appears to be in karma efficiency and getting the most out of it requires making extremely (karma) inefficient choices with priorities (assuming skills D or E). Are there even enough skills to make up for that difference?
Don't get me wrong, I can see great value to the team in taking 3-4 points in skills for teamwork tests or just to a few point here and there to round out a character or not have to default on rolls (or even be able to make them). JoaT also looks more appealing for Troll/Ork/Dwarf metatypes in priority chargen.
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Actually, it doesn't really matter for JoaT which priority you choose:
I play a sum to 14 character that has 46/10 +4 from Magic B (adept) +2 Mentor Spirit skill points and I still have enough open spots that I invested in JoaT. There is just so much you can use one or two points of competency.
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And just how many different skills do you want your character to invest in? Is it more than they would have been able to take with priority A or B in skills? The part I'm having trouble understanding is how is the PQ so valuable when its value appears to be in karma efficiency and getting the most out of it requires making extremely (karma) inefficient choices with priorities (assuming skills D or E). Are there even enough skills to make up for that difference?
Don't get me wrong, I can see great value to the team in taking 3-4 points in skills for teamwork tests or just to a few point here and there to round out a character or not have to default on rolls (or even be able to make them). JoaT also looks more appealing for Troll/Ork/Dwarf metatypes in priority chargen.
Skills A is generally not a good idea. Most characters don't need that many skills, and characters who say they do can almost always benefit from a little paring and allocation of something else (Magic, Attributes, Resources) to the A level instead.
Because it only works post chargen it's helpful to buy skills you don't have or raise lower ones.
If you have skills priority d or e it's a god send to round out character in play.
The question then becomes, "is that a good use of resources, to buy a couple low ranks, even if they're cheaper?"
Maybe sometimes. Generally I think not.
Actually, it doesn't really matter for JoaT which priority you choose:
I play a sum to 14 character that has 46/10 +4 from Magic B (adept) +2 Mentor Spirit skill points and I still have enough open spots that I invested in JoaT. There is just so much you can use one or two points of competency.
But...why? Shadowrunning is a team game. Sometimes a little redundancy is OK but generally, eh, it doesn't really help you very much.
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Actually, it doesn't really matter for JoaT which priority you choose:
... There is just so much you can use one or two points of competency.
Exactly.
I have a character with it and I plan to take at most 4 skills up to around 9 and they all started at 6. On the other end, I plan to buy 10-15 skills up to 1 or 2 from 0.
Really, it's like the best deal in the game just got better as far as dice-per-karma efficiency. Raising a skill from 0 to 1 nets you 2 dice on those tests and now you can get that with only 1 karma. It really does make A attributes really shine and even encourages attribute increases sooner than the regular karma CBA. Suppose you've got 2 agility linked skills that are at 6. Do you raise them both to 7 for 28 karma or do you raise your agility from 5 to 6 for 30 karma? Either way it's 1 more dice to both skills. Now with JoaT, that crossover happens at skill rank 5 instead of 6.
Heck, it even pushes back the benefits of specialization a few levels. Before if you were only going to do one thing with a skill, you would just take the skill at 1 and then specialize for a net 4 dice at the cost of 9 karma. With JoaT it's probably better to actually raise the entire skill to 3 for 9 karma. Same dice, but now they apply to the whole skill.
Another ancillary benefit of the quality is to massively cut down on the training time for skill groups at low levels. Need the athletics group? Buy all 3 skills individually and learn them in 1-3 days instead of 2 weeks. Oh and by the way, you also saved 2 karma over the skill group discount while doing it.
Yeah, the tertiary skills you're taking might be used more rarely (if ever), but I actually feel better and more rounded to know that I have a swimming skill at 1 in case I ever fall off a boat. Or a survival skill of 1 in case you're out in the woods. You just never know what a mission will include.
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I have a character with it and I plan to take at most 4 skills up to around 9 and they all started at 6.
That convinced me. Still don't buy into the best PQ ever or must have part, but it looks very attractive for most builds now.
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Actually, it doesn't really matter for JoaT which priority you choose:
I play a sum to 14 character that has 46/10 +4 from Magic B (adept) +2 Mentor Spirit skill points and I still have enough open spots that I invested in JoaT. There is just so much you can use one or two points of competency.
But...why? Shadowrunning is a team game. Sometimes a little redundancy is OK but generally, eh, it doesn't really help you very much.
Yes, and contributing to team checks is one of the many benefits a few skill points can make. Having one point in piloting VTOL or other (exotic) vehicles can make all the difference when you want to escape, as well as having one point in arcana is required for an adept to initiate (and I'll be damned if I invest more than one Karma into that otherwise useless skill). Than there is the massive range of exotic weaponry and a ton of skills you can't default on.
Fun fact: If you have someone acting as an instructor (p.141) with a successful instruction+charisma roll it takes no time at all (1 day - 1 day) to acquire a skill at rating 1
Combine that with turorsoft (p.442) that have their rating x2 to make such a test and that tutor soft can be acquired wirelessly and sent to your comlink, you just need to keep a few points of karma in reserve and become instantly competent
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Hm... I think I'd allow instant training at my table because it's cool. I'm not so sure it's RAW. Don't skills still need "Downtime" to train them?
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p.103: This training and practice normally takes place during the runner’s downtime. The time it takes to improve an attribute or skill is
meant to reflect the in-world time a character must invest in improving his abilities and is measured in days, weeks, or months.
Afterwards it only defines what you can do during downtime but it nowhere states that you can only train during downtime, just that you normally do.
So by RAW this flies ;)
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I often take the approach that if you use a skill a lot during play, that IS the training time.
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As do I. I have to say, though, that the smartest best cash-for-karma purchase in the game is (drumroll please) ... Rating 3 learning-stimulus neural amplifier hard nanobots, with (if your GM allows it) an external R3 hard nanohive. At a functional 17,000¥ per level, you pay 51,000¥ for an up to 3-karma reduction in every level of Language or Knowledge skills you take. Combine this with an adept's linguistic ability, and you could be speaking any language at a rating of 4 for a cost of 3 karma, a reduction of 70% - and knowing any skill at 4 for 4 karma, a reduction of 60%, and with an essence impact (again, if your GM allows you to purchase one at the same price, but outside of your body, requiring that the nanites be injected) of 0.
Mmmm, sweet sweet karma.
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Hm... I think I'd allow instant training at my table because it's cool. I'm not so sure it's RAW. Don't skills still need "Downtime" to train them?
Skills beyond R4 have huge training times. Those training times are large enough to make increasing skills past 6 almost never worth it. That just makes JoAT even better.
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Joat is indeed very good. I checked some of the concepts:
Face: the best face is maybe adept face, and he does not rise social skills. The route initiate=> cool resolve or authoritative tone is much better. For cybered/mundane face joat is not good.
Spellcaster: No rising of magical skills. Karma goes to foci, initiates and magic attribute.
Decker: Rising of hacking is needed. Joat does not work.
Rigger: A lot of technical skills needed. Joat is good.
Sam: Joat is not good (typically the rising of automatics or pistols is needed)
Below are all general and useful skills. Every shadowrunner needs many of them (you can replace some of them (e.g. medicine) by money). The list is quite long.
Sneaking
Perception
Palming (if you want to hide your light pistol)
Impersonation (this is needed even if you get the disguise from somewhere else)
Etiquette
Con
Pilot groundcraft
Gymnastics
Running
First aid
Medicine (to speed the healing process)
Survival (depending on the campaign)
Demolitions (at least one in your team should have this. Decker and hermetic mages are good candidates. No need for high values)
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Because resources (i.e. - skill points, etc) are finite at char gen, characters generally roll off the assembly line specialized. Perhaps more specialized than their concept really even calls for. After char gen though, most chars I know want/need to spread out a bit to fill in concept skills and/or everyman skills. Factor in limits and low skills have even more appeal. As long as you are raising two low skills for every high skill you will break even. Anything more than that and you are ahead. Because JoaT is so cheap, all you have to do is buy a couple low level skills and you break even instantly.
It can also really depend on your table. Not every table has 1 of every type of runner in their team. Most often I play with 1 or 2 other people. Not 5 or 6.
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It is the best quality. Not because of karma efficiency but because it saves you from awful decisions. It seems that increasing skills above 6 is already expensive karma wise and is not worth it. It feels to me that spending 30 karma to get a specific skill from 6 to 8, also raises a single attribute from 5 to 6, and you get a very wide effect.
Then there is edge that also has the potential to give benefit to every skill you own... still seems like a good investment compared to sinking karma and time into reaching slightly higher levels of your favorate skills. With the karma it takes to take 4 skills from 6 to 9 you can take edge from 1 to 6... then take lucky quality for double the price and take edge to 7 and you still have some left over karma.
Awakened also have other options to get extra dice that are more karma friendly.
Power focus, ally spirits, improved ability for adepts so by the time they are thinking about 6-->7 they could have done many many things.
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I can get JoaT at any time though. Couldn't I just hyper specialize a skill first and then take it later?
Hyper specialization IS important. Its just its freaking expensive post character creation to level skills this way.
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Sure, you can raise a skill to 7 or even 8 before you take JoaT, and that would save you 4 karma. Meanwhile, the 5 runs it takes you to earn that 30 karma to raise the primary skill from 6 to 8 you might otherwise learn 30 skills at level 1 or *just* 10 skills at level 2.
IMHO, the utility of having an extra 20-30 skill points spread thin is way more than having 2 skill points in a single skill. If you ask me, that advantage is totally worth the 4 or 8 or even 10 karma you might pay later in "interest".
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Sure, you can raise a skill to 7 or even 8 before you take JoaT, and that would save you 4 karma. Meanwhile, the 5 runs it takes you to earn that 30 karma to raise the primary skill from 6 to 8 you might otherwise learn 30 skills at level 1 or *just* 10 skills at level 2.
IMHO, the utility of having an extra 20-30 skill points spread thin is way more than having 2 skill points in a single skill. If you ask me, that advantage is totally worth the 4 or 8 or even 10 karma you might pay later in "interest".
Nah I'm a one trick pony at heart.
Its obvious its more efficient, but in opposed tests or combat, only one dice pool matters. The bigger one. And thats why this is an over powered quality, but you don't see it on everyone.
Honestly wish they'd just make it easier to level with karma so that way we wouldn't be forced into this quality.
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Honestly wish they'd just make it easier to level with karma so that way we wouldn't be forced into this quality.
This!
I played a long ago SR2. The dice pools were smaller, because the attributes were not linked to the skills. But the cost to rise an attribute was 1x new value (for skills it was 2x new value and initiation cost was roughly the same). Moreover, the number of attributes was 6. The amount of karma (and money) per run was roughly the same. But it was not impossible to see something like this:
Bod: 6
Agi: 6
Str: 6
Wil: 6
Cha: 6
Intelligence: 6
And the main skills of the char was 8-9.
Now, if you are a mage, your high value skills and almost all attributes will remain the same. Grade 3 combat mage can get +1 to drain (centering) and counterspelling pool (shielding) by paying only 22 karma. It is quite easy to lower this even to 18 or 15 by paying money and compelling an ordeal. Technically, the result is even better than rising the willpower from 5 to 6; you get +1 dice to masking and a brand new metamagic also. But the cost is much lower, and that's why illogical