Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Cyrilin on <09-16-15/1324:18>
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Hello, people of the Shadows.
I am starting a new game and one of my characters wanted to make a very social-focused Dryad. While I'm not against the concept, I was wondering just how far social rolls go. Their dicepools for social tests hover around 20 and while I don't mind her being super great at it, I am worried that this could be used to basically circumvent half the challenges in a campaign and leave all other players relegated to the sidelines.
How do you deal with very social people, what do you let them get away with and how do you design your scenarios so they don't utterly dominate the game and leave the other players just watching them being awesome?
Edit: Of course, since she put a lot of points into being social, it should still be great and useful and everything. Just not completely dominate the campaign.
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Keep in mind dice pool modifiers for Social rolls. You can find some on the GM Screen as well as in the back of the Core rulebook.
A suspicious enemy that they are convincing to do something that could end up being harmful to the enemy would net an immediate -8 to their Dice Pool, and that's just a surface glance. does the character possess the appropriate background information to make their negotiation more plausible? No? Another -2.
And these are not the end all, be all. You can make up your own Modifiers as well.
is it a time of day when someone talking to the guard would be unusual? -2. Highly unusual? -4. It never happens because he's guarding a nuclear silo? -6.
Then you can also give bonuses to the NPC based on their own posture.
Finally, what does a success mean? Scamming your way past a guard works for a few minutes, but eventually, the guard might realize he's been had. People 'come to their senses' after the intoxicatingly beautiful woman has walked away and they are no longer in a desire state.
And there are just some situations where as the GM you can rule that there is no means to convince someone without magic or having done a crap ton of legwork.
If I'm guarding an Ares R&D facility and a dryad walks up in street clothes, she will NEVER persuade me to open the door. She might persuade me to meet with her later for drinks (and then her buds can knock me out and take my access badge), but open the door for her on the spot? No way.
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To add to Jayde Moon's post, remember that NPCs are people, and they have agendas. Just as being good at weapons and combat doesn't mean you'll always be successful in combat, being good in social skills and graces doesn't mean you will always get your way with people, even if you succeed in making them like you.
I remember once I was running a d20 Star Wars game, and one of my players made a female Zeltran. A Zeltran is an alien that emits pheromones and is usually pretty handsome. His idea was to achieve all the effects of a Jedi Mind Trick, but with sheer Charisma. And he went full slut with this character, to the point it got really disturbing that the other players had to intervene on her behalf because there is an actual insanity called Nymphomania.
Generally, it worked where she encountered humanoid males that looked reasonably human (humans, zabraks, chiss, etc.). And it worked with females too. She was able to get transportation free of charge (well, without credits, anyway), ask crime bosses to hide her and her companions, get equipment at much lower prices, and so on. Where she ran into roadblocks was where NPCs had bigger agendas going on. For instance, I had an Imperial Commander who was hell-bent for leather to eradicate a Rebel cell over a world, and if he failed, he'd have to apologize to Darth Vader. A few of the PCs, including the Zeltran girl, was captured, and the Zeltran succeeded in seducing the commander, but only that the commander was willing to let her live and be with him, but the others were going to be handed over to the executioner. This forced her to rely on skills that her player really didn't concentrate on, such as stealth and computer use skills so that she could escape from the commander's quarters, distract the guards attention, and help her companions escape custody.
So there are always limits to how powerful such abilities are. In fact, when she tried to distract the guards, she still had to draw a blaster to kill them once the other PCs had escaped. Because no matter how pretty someone is, that can't trump strong agendas.
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On top of what Jayde Moon said, two other thoughts:
- Remember that goons add their professionalism rating to all their defensive social roles.
- Think about how someone would react before things get to the point of roling dice. Approaching someone at a bar may not make them all that suspicious, but if you are guarding a high security door where nobody should be showing up, the starting point is probably more like hostile unless the character is in an effective disguise.
- Spirits, watcher spirits, security cameras and drones don’t care how charming you are, and neither does the astral mage or guard at the other end of the camera.
- Remind the player that they won’t be able to charm their way through everything, so they’d best have a plan B *
* James Bond may be a fair model, where he gets ridiculously far on charm, but to actually save the day he needs to deploy some other skills (well, except in Goldfinger, where by borderline sexual assault he somehow so charms a previously hostile NPC that she turns on her boss and calls the feds with the bad guy’s plans. I’m thinking edged role with one of those hot streaks on exploding sixes)
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* James Bond may be a fair model, where he gets ridiculously far on charm, but to actually save the day he needs to deploy some other skills (well, except in Goldfinger, where by borderline sexual assault he somehow so charms a previously hostile NPC that she turns on her boss and calls the feds with the bad guy’s plans. I’m thinking edged role with one of those hot streaks on exploding sixes)
She was also a lesbian. So lots of exploding sixes? And/or Fleming was not the most open-minded of authors.
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* James Bond may be a fair model, where he gets ridiculously far on charm, but to actually save the day he needs to deploy some other skills (well, except in Goldfinger, where by borderline sexual assault he somehow so charms a previously hostile NPC that she turns on her boss and calls the feds with the bad guy’s plans. I’m thinking edged role with one of those hot streaks on exploding sixes)
She was also a lesbian. So lots of exploding sixes? And/or Fleming was not the most open-minded of authors.
Probably more a product of his time (the Bond novels by Fleming were all written in the 50s and early 60s).
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* James Bond may be a fair model, where he gets ridiculously far on charm, but to actually save the day he needs to deploy some other skills (well, except in Goldfinger, where by borderline sexual assault he somehow so charms a previously hostile NPC that she turns on her boss and calls the feds with the bad guy’s plans. I’m thinking edged role with one of those hot streaks on exploding sixes)
She was also a lesbian. So lots of exploding sixes? And/or Fleming was not the most open-minded of authors.
Open-minded is code these days for "non-threatening." In this pussified world, authors like Ian Fleming would be most refreshing.
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There's a pretty big gulf between being non-threatening and thinking that all a lesbian needs to "change her mind" is the right man. I'll give Fleming a pass since it was 1959. Less so in 2015.
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* James Bond may be a fair model, where he gets ridiculously far on charm, but to actually save the day he needs to deploy some other skills (well, except in Goldfinger, where by borderline sexual assault he somehow so charms a previously hostile NPC that she turns on her boss and calls the feds with the bad guy’s plans. I’m thinking edged role with one of those hot streaks on exploding sixes)
She was also a lesbian. So lots of exploding sixes? And/or Fleming was not the most open-minded of authors.
Probably more a product of his time (the Bond novels by Fleming were all written in the 50s and early 60s).
That gave me a thought, a pornomancer could be derails by the target simply not being interested in her gender. Sure she can wrap straight men around her finger six ways to Sunday but if the guy simply isn't interested in women he simply isn't interested in women, no matter how beautiful or provocatively dressed you are you can't get around that so she will have to resort to more traditional means of persuading him, like logic or straight out lying.
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I take a broader view of seduction, so it includes things beyond simply sexual temptation (I'm borrowing from L5R here). I admit that part of this stems from getting tired of seeing 40+ year-old men roleplay strippers, but it has the added benefit of making seduction a more expansive specialization. If you're appealing to someone's appetites (sexual or otherwise), I'll probably allow you to roll seduction.
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I take a broader view of seduction, so it includes things beyond simply sexual temptation (I'm borrowing from L5R here). I admit that part of this stems from getting tired of seeing 40+ year-old men roleplay strippers, but it has the added benefit of making seduction a more expansive specialization. If you're appealing to someone's appetites (sexual or otherwise), I'll probably allow you to roll seduction.
True but I would give them a negative as while you may be appealing to their appetites they'll be less easily swayed by someone who does not appeal to them physically or sexually. Just a thought.
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Seduction? I wouldn't even know off hand what skill to lead with on that in Shadowrun. I suppose depending on the details it could be con, negotiate, or potentially even intimidate? I do find the selection of social skills in SR clunky at times but I suppose constraint breeds creativity?
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Seduction? I wouldn't even know off hand what skill to lead with on that in Shadowrun. I suppose depending on the details it could be con, negotiate, or potentially even intimidate? I do find the selection of social skills in SR clunky at times but I suppose constraint breeds creativity?
Seduction is a specialization of Con in this game, but I don't agree they're tied to the same concept. There is a distinction between an outright con-job and a seduction, which need not really be an enticement of a romantic nature. Both require different kinds of approaches, and people, being creatures of habits, will use what they're good at. Just because a man is good at seducing women doesn't mean he's Count Victor Lustig, ready to sell the Eiffel Tower (which he did twice to scrap iron dealers).
Maybe all these skills can be narrowed down to one big skill called Persuasion? After all, that's what you're doing when you're negotiating, intimidating, conning or seducing. Those just happen to be specializations.
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I will echo what the others have said - social skills should have hard limits. There needs to be some avenue to exploit, and it shouldn't be able to overcome inflexible procedures or strong loyalties. For the latter, the face needs to take an oblique approach, like the example of not being able to waltz past a guard, but being able to lure the guard to a "date" where he can be ambushed for his access card.
With high dice pools, there is a temptation to let large numbers of successes go over the logical limits of social skills. I would recommend, instead, that high successes let you succeed to a higher degree within those limits (the secretary doesn't double-check your bogus credentials for a few hours, etc.). Social skills should be subtle manipulations, not a magic bullet. Even James Bond, or Miles Vorkosigan, occasionally ran into NPCs who could not be influenced by them. Also, be very careful about social skills used on other PCs, which can be a real minefield. Note that the book says "Dice rarely need to get involved when characters need to solve problems between one another."
On the flip side, I like the OP's attitude that high social skills should still be useful, just not completely dominating. I would recommend that faces, while not able to fast-talk their way past everything, should still have about the same level of slack as movie characters. Like in the Beverly Hills Cop movie, where Eddie Murphy's character bluffs his way into a posh hotel. It was a fun scene, but it would not work in real life, where hotel managers were not born yesterday.
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I will echo what the others have said - social skills should have hard limits. There needs to be some avenue to exploit, and it shouldn't be able to overcome inflexible procedures or strong loyalties. For the latter, the face needs to take an oblique approach, like the example of not being able to waltz past a guard, but being able to lure the guard to a "date" where he can be ambushed for his access card.
With high dice pools, there is a temptation to let large numbers of successes go over the logical limits of social skills. I would recommend, instead, that high successes let you succeed to a higher degree within those limits (the secretary doesn't double-check your bogus credentials for a few hours, etc.). Social skills should be subtle manipulations, not a magic bullet. Even James Bond, or Miles Vorkosigan, occasionally ran into NPCs who could not be influenced by them. Also, be very careful about social skills used on other PCs, which can be a real minefield. Note that the book says "Dice rarely need to get involved when characters need to solve problems between one another."
On the flip side, I like the OP's attitude that high social skills should still be useful, just not completely dominating. I would recommend that faces, while not able to fast-talk their way past everything, should still have about the same level of slack as movie characters. Like in the Beverly Hills Cop movie, where Eddie Murphy's character bluffs his way into a posh hotel. It was a fun scene, but it would not work in real life, where hotel managers were not born yesterday.
What are you suggesting? That wage slaves don't have their brains surgically removed upon being hired? Now you're just pushing the limits of my suspension of disbelief. :)
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Hard limits work. There's a point at which everyone says stop - especially if they're going from 'suspicious and doing this wrong means I get shot' to 'hey, you're definitely my best friend', because there's things that a best friend isn't gonna ask you to do, because it would mean you get shot. This is where supporting information comes in handy - but it also means that this is where things like the Social Limit just might be kicking the character in the ass, because increasing their dice to 30+ doesn't automatically mean they're getting their limit bumped up as well, and running hard against a limit of 6 or 7.
And always remember - the limit is the limit of your roll, not the limit of the difference between your hits and the other guy. If you max out your 9, and he gets 4, that's a net of 5 - you don't get to count all 13 of your successes to hit your limit via 13 - 4 = 9.
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I definitely agree that there are things that can't be done no matter how charismatic or skilled you are. You may be able to talk people into a lot of things, but there shouldn't be any way without having additional leverage or magical oomph that will allow you to automatically puppet other characters, to say nothing of other PCs.
On the other hand when Magic is involved then bets are off. And if your mohawk is pink and laced with neon fiber optic lights… well then you can have examples like this:
Which is clearly a high-magic social adept using Enthralling Performance while being empowered by an artifact. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g-4ClI2HvQ)
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- Remember that goons add their professionalism rating to all their defensive social roles....
Rules for that where!? I wanna see this shit.
On the topic though, I had a magical glowing husky player with both glamour, and a bunch of social adept powers stop a shootout once, for like 3 seconds while everyone piled into the semi that they'd crashed through the front of the building with.
My rule of paw was that the social roles should work in situations where it's logically or thematically probable to work. Guards aren't going to drop zero zone protocols for hotties. A corp exec isn't going to spill top secrets to a really persuasive guy at the bar, (Until he's wasted, if the runner is good enough to get him sloppy) and even then, at my personal drunkest I still wouldn't say things I knew to keep inside my head, I was more forward sure, but never give out too much personal information, even after 21-27 shots or so.
Follow your gut, put yourself in the mark's shoes, think like he thinks, it's a role playing game not a roll playing game, you're only dictated by the dice to resolve tests where failure or success is thematically important, and you're free to stack the odds (negative dice pools to your player, positive to your NPC) against the player when it seems logical to do so.
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Rules for that where!? I wanna see this shit.
Very end of 379.
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and even then, at my personal drunkest I still wouldn't say things I knew to keep inside my head, I was more forward sure, but never give out too much personal information, even after 21-27 shots or so.
After that amount of alcohol I wouldn't say much either, because I would be a) in hospital getting my stomach pumped empty or b) dead.
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As someone who's favorite 5e spell is Euphoria, I can see how this can go wrong in a hurry.
My rule for any social test regardless of game where I have a player seduce a character is to roll a d10. Currently the percentage of homosexuals in a society is about 10%. It won't matter how many dice you roll with your sexy wood lady if you are quite literally barking up the wrong tree! Furthermore, no AI or any computer is going to be a target of her wiles.
Furthermore, the more chrome a person has the harder it will be, so if the wood lady tries to sleep her way out of every combat encounter, then the big bad will start to throw more machine than men enemies at the party.
Overall, I'd take this as a time to shine. The dryad gets to win a few encounters a la Amy from Bender's Game, and I'd make sure that at least of few of the bad guys were equipped to handle her so the rest of the party gets to be awesome.
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I'm just gonna throw my two cents in the ring about sleeping with lesbians. I slept with a declare "lesbian" in highschool. If anyone asks, she's a lesbian. Talk to her right, and she's bi. Then in my early twenties I slept with another so called "lesbian". She totally wasn't interested in a relationship with a guy, and if her friends were around she would ignore me and pretend like she didn't know me...... It didn't hurt I was on the wrestling team and in top young man shape......
Any way just sayin.
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and even then, at my personal drunkest I still wouldn't say things I knew to keep inside my head, I was more forward sure, but never give out too much personal information, even after 21-27 shots or so.
After that amount of alcohol I wouldn't say much either, because I would be a) in hospital getting my stomach pumped empty or b) dead.
7 bars, averaging 3 combined shots of alcy each, over about 3 hours, I think... The only hangover I've ever had, and I was worried I had permanent brain damage the next full day but otherwise fine.
Anyway, the moral is, that you just can't get specific important info out of people under all social situations. It's not always that easy, like in the movies.
I'm just gonna throw my two cents in the ring about sleeping with lesbians. I slept with a declare "lesbian" in highschool. If anyone asks, she's a lesbian. Talk to her right, and she's bi. Then in my early twenties I slept with another so called "lesbian". She totally wasn't interested in a relationship with a guy, and if her friends were around she would ignore me and pretend like she didn't know me...... It didn't hurt I was on the wrestling team and in top young man shape......
Any way just sayin.
It's really hard to throw people on the whole sexual spectrum and say, "You stick there and don't go outside your box." the brain is a complex structure full of all kinds of chemical reactions, it's not prone to doing things the exact same way forever, its tastes change over time and gets the hankering for something different from time to time. Other people just want to fit themselves into a box for comfort but aren't solidly within those stereotypical bounds, but feel better if they're perceived that way.
Anyway, if they're "gay" or whatever, roll their edge score against their opponents charisma + willpower. Probably won't succeed, but miracles happen sometimes.
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I like that idea about rolling to set sexual preference. I'd still give it to them with 5+ successes though. Sexuality isn't a cut and dry thing. Luckily my Face is practically a eunick in real life and specialized in fast talk cause he isn't gonna try to seduce anybody. His words. Nobody else has the charisma to even try it cause I dumped charisma when building the party.
As far as saying shit when your drunk I've been around long enough to see some people drop some pretty fucked up shit when they are drunk. I'd defiantly make some rolls based on willpower to see how talkative an NPC is.
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Seduction is a specialization of con because it is less about seduction itself, and more about using the lure of seduction to cause a lapse of judgement. An elven hottie with 8 Charisma probably won't have any problems finding potential paramours. The challenge (and a dice roll) comes into play when you are trying to get the mark to follow you down a dark alley, or say things he shouldn't about his company's new top-secret project to impress you.
I would allow things like changing someone's sexual preferences or overriding their bigotries for generic NPCs, but not for ones, including PCs, with written backgrounds (unless, of course, that background says the character is bi-curious, or has a thing for ork women despite being a member of Humanis). Yeah, I know people can be very susceptible to manipulation, but once you say that the face can make the gay troll straight for her, you are back to no reasonable limits and magical mind control.
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Lol will this character idea ever go out of fashion? Returning 4e player and it makes me smile to see the topic title. xD
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Seduction is a specialization of con because it is less about seduction itself, and more about using the lure of seduction to cause a lapse of judgement. An elven hottie with 8 Charisma probably won't have any problems finding potential paramours. The challenge (and a dice roll) comes into play when you are trying to get the mark to follow you down a dark alley, or say things he shouldn't about his company's new top-secret project to impress you.
I would allow things like changing someone's sexual preferences or overriding their bigotries for generic NPCs, but not for ones, including PCs, with written backgrounds (unless, of course, that background says the character is bi-curious, or has a thing for ork women despite being a member of Humanis). Yeah, I know people can be very susceptible to manipulation, but once you say that the face can make the gay troll straight for her, you are back to no reasonable limits and magical mind control.
And to add to Kincades earlier point and Glyphs post, seduction doesn't always lead to sex. Casual flirtation does a lot to put someone at ease, or in a good mood. You're not going to "turn" someone, but interest is flattering, Metahumans are ego driven, and even if they know it's going nowhere, its still going have a typically positive effect on someones mood.
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Its up to common sense and a good GM to keep a lid on social skills. You don't have to let them roll if something is just impossible. No amount of fast talking will let you get by a guard in a highly secured vault when you are wearing street clothes and have no id. Protocol says anyone not in uniform and broadcasting a friendly indicator on the local net is detained immediately and shot if they resist. Now, some good fake uniforms and a stolen passcode, you might be in business. Getting all of those crazy social dice pools takes alot of character gen resources, and there is no reason that everything has to be solved with cyberspurs or an Influence spell
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YEah it's way too easy to get a social limit of 12, 13 or higher.
You have to put some common sense limits on what is possible (just like you can't shoot around corners or jump off or 10 story buildings).
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Yeah, an elven adept with charisma: 8, willpower: 5 and essence: 5 (assuming tailored pheromones: 3), and the raven mentor spirit will have a base social limit of 9, raised a point by voice control: 1 and three more points by tailored pheromones: 3, for a social limit of 13. Yeah, that's a somewhat optimized example, but its the kind of optimization you get by making a few logical choices, with no obscure rules or creative rules interpretations involved.
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With genetic optimization and exceptional attribute you could have 10 CHA
just saying
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Not to mention that social limit goes up as career karma goes up.