Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Jack_Spade on <10-20-15/1757:31>
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The new adept spell ability has prompted me to look extra hard at the spell list. That drew my attention to Analyze Device:
The spell tells you everything about a device or piece of equipment and gives you bonus dice for your net hits to operate the thing.
So I was wondering, what equipment gets the most from this spell?
The new Plasteel Toe Boots are a hot contender: Running, kicking, sneaking, dancing, climbing (or at least hiking) are all possible operations you can perform with those boots.
Ares Alpha or AK 98 are two weapons with different weapon skills
And for the powergamer: Use an analyzed powerfocus to boost your spellcasting to boost your analyze device check until you reach your limit....
...but be prepared for a hurled rulebook from your GM.
So, which piece of gear would you suggest?
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OK to me this requires the item to be a "Device", thus it must be something mechanical, or preferably electronic in nature.
So you little hold our revolver? Iffy. Smargun? yeah doable. Pick sticker knife? Really? No.
So getting running and gymnastics bonuses from analyzing your boots? No, stupid, just plain stupid. Getting those kind of bonuses from analyzing your cyberlegs? Yeah, alright, I can see that.
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Yyyyyeah, no go on the analyze device: boots. That makes about as much sense as going "I'm wearing a chameleon suit covering my whole body, so Analyze Device will boost all of my dice pools!"
See: similar cheese with Diagnostics via TM's Machine Sprite.
Best use would probably be a deck; a magician using Analyze Device, Increase Gear Limits, Increase LOG and Increase INT can be an amazing decker without any augmentations.
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About it having to be a device:
"This spell allows the subject to analyze the purpose and operation of a device or piece of equipment within range of the sense.[...]Each net hit also
gives the subject a bonus die while operating the device and allows the subject to ignore any skill-defaulting modifiers for using it as long as the spell is sustained."
Knowing the exact balance and performance of a knife on an intuitive level should definitely give you a better chance to use it successfully. Likewise you boots, If you know how they will interact with the ground you can place your feet down in a way that minimizes the resulting noise.
You can of course interpret it to only apply to high tech gear, but that's not what's in the rules text.
About the chameleon suit::
Of course not, but an analysis would allow you to sneak better. That's what this piece of gear is used for in a test after all.
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Cheese can also be gear...
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If that's the best you have to contribute...
What ends up in game and what is RAW are two very different things. I'm only concerning myself with the RAW here.
Who knows, without any Denkverbote (how do you translate that - "ban on thinking" maybe?) someone might have an idea that's both useful, creative and in line with everyone else's cheese level.
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About the chameleon suit::
Of course not, but an analysis would allow you to sneak better. That's what this piece of gear is used for in a test after all.
I'm only concerning myself with the RAW here.
Well purely by RAW, it just says "while operating the device". And if you're wearing the suit, you're operating it. It doesn't say "with that device" or "for operating the device". RAW if I use it on my biomonitor, as long as I'm using the biomonitor to track my stress levels, I perform absolutely everything better. I dunno, due to some deeper understanding of how to micro-manage my overall body function. You don't need to justify it if you're just going Rules As Written.
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Err... I'm inclined to side with Scythe and Firebug. My understanding was it gave the mage a magical intrinsic understanding of the object. I read it as some sort of mechanical device. I wouldn't be as harsh on device (I'd be ok with AD cast something like a water wheel.) But obviously inanimate objects are outside the purview of the spell. Smartgun? Sure, I abuse it myself. But you can analyze your boots all you want, it won't give you mad dancing skills (Or any other skills for that matter.)
You seem to have focused on this part:
"or piece of equipment"
and missed this part:
"This spell allows the subject to analyze the purpose and operation of a device."
The 'Purpose and Operation' of boots is not dancing. Or Climbing. Or Stealth. Or kicking people in the nuts.
Honestly I'd probably just give you a bonus on any tests to successfully wear boots since that seems like their most basic purpose...
And maybe shoelace tying...Hmm...
and this:
'And for the powergamer: Use an analyzed powerfocus to boost your spellcasting to boost your analyze device check until you reach your limit....
...but be prepared for a hurled rulebook from your GM.'
Would end with maniacal laughter and a flat no. I would absolutely not let AD be cast on anything magical. Ever.
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The 'Purpose and Operation' of boots is not dancing. Or Climbing. Or Stealth. Or kicking people in the nuts.
Honestly I'd probably just give you a bonus on any tests to successfully wear boots since that seems like their most basic purpose...
And maybe shoelace tying...Hmm...
I could see a bonus to Running with running shoes (not Plasteel Toe Boots)
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I might could buy into combat knife/throwing knife getting a boost as well. But the foci boosting bit, nope, might let it work for how much extra damage I get for throwing my core book to the fools skull.
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But the foci boosting bit, nope, might let it work for how much extra damage I get for throwing my core book to the fools skull.
On average, you'll get more if you analyze it first.
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Speaking purely mechanical wise:
I don't think "Analyze Device" is a usefull choice for the Adept Spell, opportunity costs seem way to high.
Keep in mind you'll have to beat the the object resistance and will most likely only have around 9 Dice (raising spellcasting >3-4 seems a bit of a waste, imho)
So, 1, maybe 2 bonus dice minus the mods for sustaining a spell?
Seems like wasted Nuyen and Karma to me.
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Speaking purely mechanical wise:
I don't think "Analyze Device" is a usefull choice for the Adept Spell, opportunity costs seem way to high.
Keep in mind you'll have to beat the the object resistance and will most likely only have around 9 Dice (raising spellcasting >3-4 seems a bit of a waste, imho)
So, 1, maybe 2 bonus dice minus the mods for sustaining a spell?
Seems like wasted Nuyen and Karma to me.
Unless its a cyberdeck that governs what 6 different type of skills all of which are decker
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Speaking purely mechanical wise:
I don't think "Analyze Device" is a usefull choice for the Adept Spell, opportunity costs seem way to high.
Keep in mind you'll have to beat the the object resistance and will most likely only have around 9 Dice (raising spellcasting >3-4 seems a bit of a waste, imho)
So, 1, maybe 2 bonus dice minus the mods for sustaining a spell?
Seems like wasted Nuyen and Karma to me.
Unless its a cyberdeck that governs what 6 different type of skills all of which are decker
That's still a very nasty OR to overcome.
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Err... I'm inclined to side with Scythe and Firebug. My understanding was it gave the mage a magical intrinsic understanding of the object. I read it as some sort of mechanical device. I wouldn't be as harsh on device (I'd be ok with AD cast something like a water wheel.) But obviously inanimate objects are outside the purview of the spell. Smartgun? Sure, I abuse it myself. But you can analyze your boots all you want, it won't give you mad dancing skills (Or any other skills for that matter.)
You seem to have [...]
missed this part:
"This spell allows the subject to analyze the purpose and operation of a device."
The 'Purpose and Operation' of boots is not dancing. Or Climbing. Or Stealth. Or kicking people in the nuts.
Honestly I'd probably just give you a bonus on any tests to successfully wear boots since that seems like their most basic purpose...
And maybe shoelace tying...Hmm...
Seriously? Not even tap dancing? ;D
Besides, you are focusing on the wrong part of the spell description. It's about the last part:
"Each net hit also gives the subject a bonus die while operating the device and allows the subject to ignore any skill-defaulting modifiers for using it as long as the spell is sustained."
If you kick someone with your boot that is no different from having one of those shiny new cyber claws. Why would you deny the boot (which is explicitly stated to be a weapon) that bonus?
Also the text mentions that the boots influence your stealth check (negatively by providing a bonus die to perception), therefore this is part of "operating" the boots.
Granted, the text says nothing about running, but since your foot wear usually has a major influence on running, why would you arbitrarily exclude that from operating your boots?
@Duellist_D
Sustaining can be handled the normal way by foci and adept centering (as well as having an attuned animal with living focus, but that's another topic).
Analyze device is useful and versatile enough to boost your skill in spell casting: It allows you to use effectively every piece of equipment you find. That includes a space shuttle (if you get lucky and it rolls low on its object resistance roll).
It's good enough that it might be worth to get the Quickening meta-magic.
With that you can try every day after you wake up to cast with edge and hope for the perfect roll vs. the perfect low roll on OR.
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IIRC the Animalstuff allows you to transfer an ability from you to your familiar so he can profit from it, it doesn't make him sustain it for you.
But adept-centering might indeed be an option, i need to keep that in mind while searching for good choices for that Power.
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Still, its at best probably 1-2 Dice you get as a Bonus, for 1 PP, 2 digit amount of Karma and the unique Adept Spell slot.. I think i'd rather get something with that power that you can't usually get as an adept OR someting that gives you a more reliable / higher Bonus.
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1 PP plus whatever skill points to get a minor bonus? As a GM, I'd pretty well let it fly on anything, just me. Given the likely spellcasting pool vs object resistance is going to get you one, occasionally two net hits, the drain, the sustaining... if you want your boots to be sneaky, your boots are sneaky.
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I would much rather the use of Adept Spell be levitate, manaball, spellblade(mana), heal, detox, improved invisibility, physical mask, etc.
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Analyze device works great on throwback weapons (say an AK-97 without a smartlink) as the object resistance is minimal (simple mechanical object resists with 6 dice).
We have an aspected sorcerer mage in our group that does that just that.
He rolls 11 dice so usually ends up with about 3 net successes (or 3 extra dice on his pool) not game unbalancing.
This is the same object resistance you would roll against for your leather & metal boots.
Not sure it would make sense for a straight adept as you need a high enough spellcasting pool to take advantage of it.
If you had a really high pool the best device to analyze would be your skillwires, that bonus would the apply to any activesoft slotted.
But man that's a hard resistance to overcome (15!)
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Ohhh. Skillwires. Now that would make the investment into one skill worth. Especially since it would make low-level wires quite effective.
Hm, a downgraded version would be to get one of those high fashion armors with a wireless social bonus. A face adept would profit immensely.
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Our team's technomancer puts a machine sprite into her skillwires.
Bumps her rating 4 activesofts to an effective rating of 8.
Although Diagnostics is unresisted so much more suited to this kind of thing.
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Analyze Device is small bonus to lots of things. Other sustained buffs are larger bonus to a smaller set, for example Increase Agility or similar.
To use Adzlings throwback AK-97 example. Same character uses a smartlink (or lasersight) and an increase Agility sustain they're up to +5 dice for just the couple hundred nuyen cost of the hardware upgrade. But Increase Agility doesn't help with Demolitions or Pilot tests like Analyze Device potentially could.
If an Adept is close to or at the Max, Augmentation bonus for his/her main skills then Analyze Device is another potential stacking buff. If the Adept isn't already at the +4 mark then other buffs such as Increase Agility or Attribute Boost Agility may be a better use of the power point.
AFB, does the Adept power allow for Rituals or Preparations, or is it Sorcery only? Preparations may be a better deal so you don't have to throw resources at some kind of sustaining ability.
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Its a "spell" and allows for the learing of the spellcasting skill only, so Preparations are out.
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Our team's technomancer puts a machine sprite into her skillwires.
Bumps her rating 4 activesofts to an effective rating of 8.
Although Diagnostics is unresisted so much more suited to this kind of thing.
That's how I did it until they stealth-nerfed Skillwires for no reason. Was the only way I had half-decent physical skills.
Diagnostics may be unresisted, but it also is capped at skill rating and prevents further boosts via teamwork tests (or Leadership). Analyze Device, you can blow Edge on and get like 8+ hits if you want. I'd get a F4 Spellcasting (Detection) focus in order to be able to roll 16 dice, then reroll misses. Get like 10 hits...
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"stealth nerfed skillwires", huh?
Also try Analyze Device on Skillwires and you're rolling your spellcasting pool against object resistance of 15 dice!
Not much chance for any net successes there unless you have a huge spellcasting pool and/ or use edge.
Even with your example of 16 dice below you would average 0 net successes unless you edged it.
Our team's technomancer puts a machine sprite into her skillwires.
Bumps her rating 4 activesofts to an effective rating of 8.
Although Diagnostics is unresisted so much more suited to this kind of thing.
That's how I did it until they stealth-nerfed Skillwires for no reason. Was the only way I had half-decent physical skills.
Diagnostics may be unresisted, but it also is capped at skill rating and prevents further boosts via teamwork tests (or Leadership). Analyze Device, you can blow Edge on and get like 8+ hits if you want. I'd get a F4 Spellcasting (Detection) focus in order to be able to roll 16 dice, then reroll misses. Get like 10 hits...
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"stealth nerfed skillwires", huh?
Yeah, in Chrome Flesh the stats are reprinted with an increase Essence cost. Meaning, I could no longer have Used R4 Skilljack and Used R4 Skillwires at only 1 Essence total.
I wouldn't use Analyze Device on Skillwires anyways. Especially now, since the cost of Essence and Nuyen is too great on a magician.
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Didn't Wakshani already say that this was a printing error?
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Didn't Wakshani already say that this was a printing error?
Not anywhere I caught... He may have said it was potentially one, but they changed other stuff too (like their availability ratings) and if they weren't changing it, why reprint them?
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Wak did say this was an error.
This is borne out by the stats for the Renraku Tradejack which comes in at 0.9 essence for rating 4 wires, jack and chipjack (the same cost as the discreet parts sold separately but without the fancy Renraku branding).
As to the "why" I would refer you to the horror-show that is Catalyst's editing process to-date.
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As to the "why" I would refer you to the horror-show that is Catalyst's editing process to-date.
Scariest thing this year (and last several as well)!
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Ok, I'm lost now!
First, Adept Spell? You mean Mystic Adept, right? Or did I miss a really important party?
Second, adzling Tehnomancer taht pours his machine sprite into skillwires is not the best way to interpret the rules. There was a discusion here few years ago. You dont use your skill while using skillwires, and the sprite uses teamwork to help you,... operate skill wires. Ergo: no go on the skillwire jack of all trades.
And third, what is the verdict on Analyze Device spell casted od weapon? Revolver is slicy, Smart gun is ok, but Knife or Sword? How about Weapon focus? That really gives you bonus to your combat rolls.
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Yes, you missed the glory that is the new Hard Targets book - new weapons, new powers and most important new weapon mods - some say its most beautiful feature is its detailed and most of all "existing" index ;D
It's pretty clear cut: You analyze it, learn everything there is to know about it - including things like an intuitive grasp how to use it (more efficiently)
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Yes, you missed the glory that is the new Hard Targets book - new weapons, new powers and most important new weapon mods - some say its most beautiful feature is its detailed and most of all "existing" index ;D
Ooh! It's out as a book already? Hot damn! I know the next thing I"m getting from my FLGS!
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Except there's a commlink that allows you to use an agent on it which in Cyberdeck take up a program slot
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Team work tests are not restricted to native skills, so skillwire users can both confer and accept teamwork bonii with their skillwire skills.
You can't spend edge on a skillwire, but that's the only restriction I am aware of.
Ok, I'm lost now!
First, Adept Spell? You mean Mystic Adept, right? Or did I miss a really important party?
Second, adzling Tehnomancer taht pours his machine sprite into skillwires is not the best way to interpret the rules. There was a discusion here few years ago. You dont use your skill while using skillwires, and the sprite uses teamwork to help you,... operate skill wires. Ergo: no go on the skillwire jack of all trades.
And third, what is the verdict on Analyze Device spell casted od weapon? Revolver is slicy, Smart gun is ok, but Knife or Sword? How about Weapon focus? That really gives you bonus to your combat rolls.
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Ooh! It's out as a book already? Hot damn! I know the next thing I"m getting from my FLGS!
You might want to double-check the street date for that; normally the books come out on pdf first, and then physical copies ship a bit later. It might be out now, but call you game shop and see if it has released yet, or if not then if they have a ship date.
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Team work tests are not restricted to native skills, so skillwire users can both confer and accept teamwork bonii with their skillwire skills.
You can't spend edge on a skillwire, but that's the only restriction I am aware of.
Ok, I'm lost now!
First, Adept Spell? You mean Mystic Adept, right? Or did I miss a really important party?
Second, adzling Tehnomancer taht pours his machine sprite into skillwires is not the best way to interpret the rules. There was a discusion here few years ago. You dont use your skill while using skillwires, and the sprite uses teamwork to help you,... operate skill wires. Ergo: no go on the skillwire jack of all trades.
And third, what is the verdict on Analyze Device spell casted od weapon? Revolver is slicy, Smart gun is ok, but Knife or Sword? How about Weapon focus? That really gives you bonus to your combat rolls.
in SR 4 there was an expert system add on to skillwires that let you use edge