Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Rooks on <01-01-16/1328:46>
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Anyone make rules on customer made cyber decks? looking at the tables it seems to be about 12000-8500 to increase a matrix attribute wondering if anyone else figured this stuff out before hand.
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Yeah, no.
Modifying things, which is what you're referencing from Data Trails, is a whole other ballgame than building a highly complex, technological device from scratch.
Look at what RCCs have to offer; there's a single device I might consider letting a character make on his own, and that's the aptly titled scratch-built junk.
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I brought up this concept years ago for DND... You are either tied to fate, in which case you can develop things that change the game world, i.e. developing gun powder... or you are not tied to fate (adventurers) in which case you can do adventure type stuff like defying fate. That includes things like killing a fated person before their time, or doing humanly impossible things like killing dragons or not having to use the restroom.
In shadowrun, this means you're either a shadowrunner, or a plot device. No inventing new technology, you simply don't get visited by the creative muse to allow it.
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That being said, with the way Matrix architecture is designed, I don't have a problem with a deck being a network of components scattered all over the place, while accessed from a single device, like a commlink.
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That being said, with the way Matrix architecture is designed, I don't have a problem with a deck being a network of components scattered all over the place, while accessed from a single device, like a commlink.
Except that distance based Noise is measured from one antenna to the other. Depending on how "scattered" your components are, you may have compounding Noise penalties just for device operations, not to mention distance to target.
Commlinks are basically smartphones in size, but function like a home PC.
Cyberdecks are tablet / laptop in size, but function like an ultra high end gaming PC. Tons of RAM, ridiculous CPU speed, and all the software you could ever want. Specifically, software used for hacking since that's what ASDF ratings really measure. Rather than outline every single program and subroutine you have at your disposal for hacking into somewhere, they just give you a numerical rating to say how good your software is. That's what you're doing when you modify a device to have Attack or Sleaze, you're installing the basic package of Attack or Sleaze software.
So no... I don't think anything about the Matrix architecture would allow you to cobble together a Deck from "scattered" components. Not unless you started at the Foundation, and made yourself a Host in the cloud.
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Ya, except previous versions you were able to and even RCCs have "Scratch Built Junk" even had rules on how to make your own vehicles so there goes that theory out your window
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If you hardwired your components into the grid then the distance wouldn't matter. If it did, then the whole cloud tech system falls apart.
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I was addressing Joe, since the idea of "scattered components" makes me think he's talking about a toaster in this house, a microwave in the house down the street...
However, I'd like to think that it's possible to order the right components and put it together yourself. You could either order a gaming PC from Alienware... or you order the case, the motherboard, the video card(s)... and you build it yourself on your kitchen table. Usually ends up being cheaper that way too.
So I could imagine making a Deck at home, with the right parts and tools. However, all those parts are going to be Restricted, since the final product is Restricted. You can't just use an ordinary processor salvaged from a high end Commlink, it has to be a very specific grade processor that can handle the level of computing a Deck is for. Stuff like that.
Basically, I don't think it's as simple using the Mod rules to ramp up a random device and make it into a legitimate Deck. But it "should" be doable, in theory. Of course, I'm pretty sure earlier editions actually gave prices and mechanics for such a thing. Here in SR5, the company line for Matrix stuff is "no one knows how it works, it just does."
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If you hardwired your components into the grid then the distance wouldn't matter. If it did, then the whole cloud tech system falls apart.
"Hardwired" and "Grid" don't go together. The Matrix at large is like the internet, there is no singular source. Plus, it's all wireless these days, so there is nothing to hardwire into.
The whole cloud tech excuse for Hosts (aside from being total BS) is b/c they share processing power among every device in the world. Which means so long as you're in range of any devices (including the one you're using to get online) then you're within range of part of the Host(s).
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No, it isn't all wireless. There's still the wired matrix integrated into the wireless stuff.
What I'm suggesting is something like a bunch of computers hooked up directly to the grid, i.e. the wired matrix. That may as well be a single device as far as the top level use is concerned. I agree that there is some delay in the wireless connection back to your network of components, but so long as they aren't prohibitively far away, like the other side of the planet, that isn't so much of an issue. If you plug your commlink directly into the grid someplace, then your distance to target becomes the distance from a wired access point to your target. I might further stipulate that is would be a public access point since private ones would need some hacking to get into.
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No... it's pretty much all wireless these days. There may be a hardlined network inside a secure facility, to prevent hackers in the parking lot from stealing all their secrets. But there are no more trunk lines running from LA to NYC (at least not any still in use). The modern Matrix has gotten too fast for the old infrastructure, which is why they switched to wireless technomancy.
So there is nowhere for you to plug directly into "the Matrix" anymore. You get a Grid subscription, which is like a cell carrier / ISP, and you access the cloud like everyone else.
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Ya, except previous versions you were able to and even RCCs have "Scratch Built Junk" even had rules on how to make your own vehicles so there goes that theory out your window
...I still remember those days. Took a lot of skills, tests, and downtime but it could be done. Back then the fluff was, you weren't taken seriously by many in the decking community if you were running with someone else' stock off the shelf hardware (as well as software).
Had one of my deckers build herself a custom deck that was a cut above the Renraku Kraftwerk (the most powerful deck you could get at chargen which just by itself without programmes cost about half your resources at priority A). Used a lot of lifestyle (middle to support having a workshop) and fortunately made a number of good rolls which really cut the base time for a lot of tasks. Needed to use Excel in RL to manage the process and crunch all the numbers. Came out with an MPCP as powerful as the next model up, faster response, faster I/O, and better hardening for about 60,000¥ less than the base (non street indexed) price of the Kraftwerk.
As a GM, loved being able to create new vehicles as well. Had several of my own types/brands in my campaign from cars, to transport aircraft to even an LAV (with a railgun) and an SSTO spaceplane.
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There's a BIG difference between modding a deck you bought to suit your style, and creating a brand new deck from scratch. Is it phsycially possible? Sure. And you might be able to build a sports car that goes 200 MPH in a machine shop with parts you got at AutoZone. It just ain't bloody likely.
We're not talking about getting a pile of components and building your own PC, y'know? Things are more complicated than that, and actually producing hardware for computers generally needs specialized equipment and clean rooms. Again, not something you could do in a normal electronics shop. I wouldn't allow it with less than a Facility and high ratings in the Hardware skill, for starters. On the other hand, modding something you bought/stole is much simpler, easier, and already has rules in place.
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...2nd and 3rd ed both had very detailed rules for deck construction in their respective Matrix supplements, that involved using components, specialised tools, and "cooking" your own chips. As I mentioned, it was very complicated and time consuming (hence needing to use Excel to keep track of all the steps, time, materials, and costs) but it could be done in a workshop with no penalty. One needed to maintain a minimum Middle lifestyle throughout the process to support his or her own shop.
You got better bonuses with a facility if you could afford or "rent" time in one (and not many characters could, even those who made it to prime runner status).
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And this is neither the Matrix nor the cyberdeck of 2nd and 3rd ed. Name's the same, but everything else is different.
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And this is neither the Matrix nor the cyberdeck of 2nd and 3rd ed. Name's the same, but everything else is different.
except the terms the history lore names of corps and the points where people just directly copied the fluff from previous editions
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Looking at edition progression...
SR4 completely went away from using Cyberdecks. Anyone with a standard issue Commlink could be a hacker.
Then SR5 went back to using them. And they clearly started using newer tech, since the SR1-3 Decks were huge monstrosities compared to the tablets in SR5.
And speaking of tablets and laptops... while I can see someone with a homemade briefcase sized "scratch built junk" RCC... it's a lot harder to order parts and pieces and build your own tablet or laptop. Every piece has to be precisely for that model, since the casings tend to barely fit. So building your own Fairlight Excalibur at home, is probably going to mean ordering all the bits direct from Fairlight anyway.
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And this is neither the Matrix nor the cyberdeck of 2nd and 3rd ed. Name's the same, but everything else is different.
...yeah I know, just like in RL how today everything seems to be moving away from Towers and Notebooks to Tablets and Smartphones. Crikey, the latest versions of Windows look more like something designed by Fisher Price than the world's #1 software developer.
Guess fiction had to catch up to reality sometime. .
Sometimes I really miss the old "slot and jack in" days. It was a fun ride while it lasted though. :'(
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Looking at edition progression...
SR4 completely went away from using Cyberdecks. Anyone with a standard issue Commlink could be a hacker.
Then SR5 went back to using them. And they clearly started using newer tech, since the SR1-3 Decks were huge monstrosities compared to the tablets in SR5.
And speaking of tablets and laptops... while I can see someone with a homemade briefcase sized "scratch built junk" RCC... it's a lot harder to order parts and pieces and build your own tablet or laptop. Every piece has to be precisely for that model, since the casings tend to barely fit. So building your own Fairlight Excalibur at home, is probably going to mean ordering all the bits direct from Fairlight anyway.
Ya I know just like buying a vehicle and modding the heck out of it, but theres rules for that as well ::)
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And this is neither the Matrix nor the cyberdeck of 2nd and 3rd ed. Name's the same, but everything else is different.
except the terms the history lore names of corps and the points where people just directly copied the fluff from previous editions
Funny. I haven't seen MCMPs, nodes, SANs and so on in SR5. Yeah, totally the same...
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computer (n.) 1640s, "one who calculates,"
Every time someone says old school cyberdecks returned in fifth edition, I think of this.
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Cyber decks DID exist in 4th edition. They were the fabled portable nexus.
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Fluff-wise custom built decks are possible, Data Trails has a couple that were not built by Mega Corps. And every project, Mega Corp or Mom and Pop, starts with a proof of concept build or a prototype that is built from scratch. So, it has to be possible. It's just not mechanically spelled out how to do it.
Thus, Houserules would be needed. There was a couple of decent starts in the "How much should a Cyberdeck cost thread?" you could look at.
You'd also want to decide how far back in the process do you want to detail? To use modern day analogies. Are you ordering a motherboard and CPU from Newegg and putting the components together or are you cutting our own PCB boards and laying out the traces? Are you designing your own chips from scratch or are you using off the shelf components?
FYI custom Semiconductors are a thing here in real life, there are foundries that do short run custom work. Expensive as hell though. As in hundreds or thousands of times the costs of mass produced chips. As much as I hate to say "Realistically" a custom built cyberdeck probably is using off the shelf components, like an PSoC or FPGA type of concept where the chips are off the shelf but configured by the builder. And in a world where 3D printers are a thing a custom form factor wouldn't be particularly expensive. More expensive than mass produced, but still in the realm of a few hundred Nuyen. A decent machine shop could crank something out for you in a day or two for about the same cost if you give them the print.
That may have gone a little far into the weeds...
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Cyber decks DID exist in 4th edition. They were the fabled portable nexus.
The tiniest & least powerful ones, perhaps. I've yet to see anyone carry a full PC tower around like a keytar, though. Nexi beyond that were hosts.
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Houserule it. My GM did. Now I'm a busy little squirrel absolutely ripping apart every commlink I can find in my quest to build my own deck.
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....yeah for me no RAW that covers the building of custom decks takes the enthusiasm of reworking my old decker Violet as she was one of those who loved ripping things apart and building her own stuff.
It can sort of be done to a point with the Juryrigger quality and Hardware skill.
Also miss being able to use related Knowledge skills in support of Active ones. That really worked well for a tinkerer character (or a demolitionist who made her own explosives).
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And this is neither the Matrix nor the cyberdeck of 2nd and 3rd ed. Name's the same, but everything else is different.
except the terms the history lore names of corps and the points where people just directly copied the fluff from previous editions
Funny. I haven't seen MCMPs, nodes, SANs and so on in SR5. Yeah, totally the same...
Neither is masking Bod and evasion oh wait wait no firewall attack sleaze data processing pans number of active programs running at the same time thank you for your time checks in the mail
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If you really think the Matrix terms of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Edition is the same as that of 4th and/or 5th, Rooks, we really have nothing more to talk about. Your last statement males no more sense than the others, so... Have a good one, mate.
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It's exactly the same Don care if you think otherwise really but apparently you can comprehend basic principles anyways
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It's exactly the same Don care if you think otherwise really but apparently you can comprehend basic principles anyways
Next time you try to insult someone, try harder.
very mature Herr Brackhaus sending a message then blocking me if you want a conversation on how I "insulted" you please grow up and have a conversation like a real person
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Or, you both can "grow up" and stop insulting each other. I'm going to lock this thread for a bit so you can both cool down.