Oddly not a big factor.
I love this. But there are some things that I would make a deeper change in. For instance, the fact that getting one point of Strength for a Troll costs a minimum of 30 karma, but for a Human, it costs 10 karma. I'm a big fan of static prices for increasing attributes where your base score doesn't figure into it. Adding 1 additional point of Strength beyond your minimum should cost the same no matter what your minimum is. That's pretty divisive, but I'll stick with it.
I'm having trouble restricting myself to just the cost of 'ware though. I keep wanting to balance other numbers with other beliefs of how advancement should go. I believe that, at the start of your career, you should be able to advance in some meaningful way just about every other run.
It should have been the single biggest contributing factor bar none.
No matter what edition you're using or how many editions removed you are from when it was first built, you should still be able to exactly replicate a character's capabilities unless you choose to change them.
Don't forget Availability. It's not really a cost, but it is a limiter. It's very clear that the intention is for players to build a character and upgrade the augments down the road. The fact that the RAW makes it unlikely to ever be able to go from Muscle Toner 2 to Muscle Toner 4 is a huge disconnect, IMO. It's also why a lot of optimizers settle on Used Muscle (whatever) 3.
The additional arbitrary restriction on grades is also head scratching. Given the Availability mechanic the grades are self limiting, or a really obvious Positive (or Negative!) Quality.
The increased costs are no big deal, IMO, but the Availability mechanic causes a lot of your more interesting acrobatics by players.
| Ware | SR5 | SR4 | SR3/SR2/SR1 |
| Datajack | 1,000¥ | 500¥ | 1,000¥ |
| Dermal Plating | 3,000¥/6,000¥/9,000¥ +++ | 5,000¥/10,000¥/15,000¥ | 6,000¥/15,000¥/45,000¥ |
| Wired Reflexes | 39,000¥/149,000¥/217,000¥ | 11,000¥/32,000¥/100,000¥ | 55,000¥/165,000¥/500,000¥ |
In fact, given 5th Edition's tagline of "Everything has a price", it's interesting to note that picking Resources E in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition represented a FAR worse off character in terms of money.
That being said, I can't even begin to think what kind of crazy 5th Edition characters 1.25 MILLION nuyen might result in, so I'll leave that to those who actually care enough to build one ;)
I was more comparing the difference between maximum and minimum resources with that statement. I.e. a character in 1st through 3 with Priority A in resources had a cool mill to work with, while Resources E meant you had pocket change. My 3rd Edition book lists priority E for resources as 5,000¥, 2nd Edition is 500¥, and 1st Edition is 100¥. All three editions capped out at 1,000,000¥ for Priority A.In fact, given 5th Edition's tagline of "Everything has a price", it's interesting to note that picking Resources E in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition represented a FAR worse off character in terms of money.
Actually, in SR3, the Priority E for Resources was only 1,000 less than SR5, but there wasn't any of this drek of having to broadcast a SIN in certain areas (wireless was pretty rare thing back then even IRL) so unless you were always going around trying to make nice with high society as a SINless slob, the fake ID wasn't as important. The Unarmed Troll Adept could just buy an Armored Jacket and call it good.
These days, however, you really need a Rating 4 Fake SIN to really do much outside the Barrens, so that's a 10,000 tax before the associated licenses (which for just one identically rated Fake License is 1,600) on just about every character. So Resources Priority E hurts a LOT more in SR5 than SR3.
I was more comparing the difference between maximum and minimum resources with that statement. I.e. a character in 1st through 3 with Priority A in resources had a cool mill to work with, while Resources E meant you had pocket change. My 3rd Edition book lists priority E for resources as 5,000¥, 2nd Edition is 500¥, and 1st Edition is 100¥. All three editions capped out at 1,000,000¥ for Priority A.In fact, given 5th Edition's tagline of "Everything has a price", it's interesting to note that picking Resources E in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition represented a FAR worse off character in terms of money.
Actually, in SR3, the Priority E for Resources was only 1,000 less than SR5, but there wasn't any of this drek of having to broadcast a SIN in certain areas (wireless was pretty rare thing back then even IRL) so unless you were always going around trying to make nice with high society as a SINless slob, the fake ID wasn't as important. The Unarmed Troll Adept could just buy an Armored Jacket and call it good.
These days, however, you really need a Rating 4 Fake SIN to really do much outside the Barrens, so that's a 10,000 tax before the associated licenses (which for just one identically rated Fake License is 1,600) on just about every character. So Resources Priority E hurts a LOT more in SR5 than SR3.
Comparatively, it'd be like a 5th Edition character with Resources E being given 45¥ (1st Edition) or 2250¥ (3rd Edition).
I like the addition of used 'ware as an additional grade, the increased viability of reaction enhancers compared to wired reflexes or synaptic boosters, and the rules for cyberlimbs.Wait, really? Core book only, with Chrome Flesh, or with Chrome Flesh German Edition (aka Errata)? Because the rules for cyberlimbs are generally exceptionally poorly regarded on these boards, at least in my experience.
No matter what edition you're using or how many editions removed you are from when it was first built, you should still be able to exactly replicate a character's capabilities unless you choose to change them.That's...a really weird "rule" to claim, and I think you'll find there are a great many more RPGs and edition changes where that is an untrue statement, than where that is a true one.
I like the addition of used 'ware as an additional grade, the increased viability of reaction enhancers compared to wired reflexes or synaptic boosters, and the rules for cyberlimbs.Wait, really? Core book only, with Chrome Flesh, or with Chrome Flesh German Edition (aka Errata)? Because the rules for cyberlimbs are generally exceptionally poorly regarded on these boards, at least in my experience.
The German edition helped by allowing limbs to affect limits if all four limbs have been replaced, and qualities like Redliner and Cyber Singularity Seeker certainly made full limb replacements much more attractive. And there's no doubt that the single cyberarm decker is a great, if somewhat cheesy, way to gain some decent combat ability for a pistol wielding less-than-frontline combatant.
my main input here is that the stat bonuses from augmentation are Augment (with a capital A) bonuses and thus are limited to the +4 augmented max, and so on, so they are fundamentally less valuable than a base stat boost.
But Glyph, you can't really call it Apples to Oranges when they do the exact same thing, such as Muscle Replacement compared to Muscle Toner/Augmentation. Or whenever another cyber/bio option has the exact same choices. At that point, they do need to be balanced with each other, otherwise people will always choose the one, making the other obsolete.
But Glyph, you can't really call it Apples to Oranges when they do the exact same thing, such as Muscle Replacement compared to Muscle Toner/Augmentation. Or whenever another cyber/bio option has the exact same choices. At that point, they do need to be balanced with each other, otherwise people will always choose the one, making the other obsolete.
They would be unbalanced if muscle augmentation/toner was cheaper than muscle replacement as well as more Essence friendly.
I would just like to throw two thoughts into this discussion.
1. I initially found the increased ware prices pretty brutal but I grew to like them, after all, this is very sophisticated technology.
2. The increased cost on ware for trolls is just devastating, troll samurais are not as fun to build as they used to be because their ware just costs way too much. This is a problem because troll racial stats are heavily weighted towards physical combat, yet they can't afford the things they need. It just feels too limiting.
*Note* These opinions are coming from a person that does not care about archetype balance.
One semi off topic thing I want to throw my two rounds in on is that the raising of prices while lowering the available resources makes both options less attractive than they were in previous editions.
I would just like to throw two thoughts into this discussion.
1. I initially found the increased ware prices pretty brutal but I grew to like them, after all, this is very sophisticated technology.
2. The increased cost on ware for trolls is just devastating, troll samurais are not as fun to build as they used to be because their ware just costs way too much. This is a problem because troll racial stats are heavily weighted towards physical combat, yet they can't afford the things they need. It just feels too limiting.
*Note* These opinions are coming from a person that does not care about archetype balance.
Troll ware doesn't cost any more than anyone else,
Troll's pay 100% more for lifestyle.
Everything else is the same except the guy who wrote the rigger book decided to add a cost for trolls to be comfortable driving.
Why? Because.
I think being a Troll in Priority System should be a bit cheaper. I'd go for Trolls being available at C with 0 Special Attribute points, B with 3, A with 5 (not that some people would take Troll at C because of the lack of Edge). I'd also make it easier to be Dwarfs and Orks, giving them options at D. Getting the metas out there as options means more people might take them, which means more variety, which makes things more interesting. Hell, Orks are supposed to be close to 30% of the world's population, last time I checked Run Faster; they should be easier to grab in Priority at that point, even if you don't get Special Attribute points at the lower levels.
I would just like to throw two thoughts into this discussion.
1. I initially found the increased ware prices pretty brutal but I grew to like them, after all, this is very sophisticated technology.
2. The increased cost on ware for trolls is just devastating, troll samurais are not as fun to build as they used to be because their ware just costs way too much. This is a problem because troll racial stats are heavily weighted towards physical combat, yet they can't afford the things they need. It just feels too limiting.
*Note* These opinions are coming from a person that does not care about archetype balance.
Troll ware doesn't cost any more than anyone else,
Troll's pay 100% more for lifestyle.
Everything else is the same except the guy who wrote the rigger book decided to add a cost for trolls to be comfortable driving.
Why? Because.
I really wish that was true but there is errata for the price changes for trolls.
"TROLL LIFESTYLE COSTS (P. 65, METATYPE & SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES) The second sentence of this section needs to be clarified. Change: “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also receive the disadvantage of having to pay an additional fifty percent for gear because everything—including cyberware and bioware—must be specially modified to meet their massive physical requirements.” To “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also have the disadvantage of having their Lifestyle costs doubled to reflect the costs of adapting everything they use—especially their gear, including cyberware or bioware—to meet their massive physical requirements."
I would just like to throw two thoughts into this discussion.
1. I initially found the increased ware prices pretty brutal but I grew to like them, after all, this is very sophisticated technology.
2. The increased cost on ware for trolls is just devastating, troll samurais are not as fun to build as they used to be because their ware just costs way too much. This is a problem because troll racial stats are heavily weighted towards physical combat, yet they can't afford the things they need. It just feels too limiting.
*Note* These opinions are coming from a person that does not care about archetype balance.
Troll ware doesn't cost any more than anyone else,
Troll's pay 100% more for lifestyle.
Everything else is the same except the guy who wrote the rigger book decided to add a cost for trolls to be comfortable driving.
Why? Because.
I really wish that was true but there is errata for the price changes for trolls.
"TROLL LIFESTYLE COSTS (P. 65, METATYPE & SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES) The second sentence of this section needs to be clarified. Change: “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also receive the disadvantage of having to pay an additional fifty percent for gear because everything—including cyberware and bioware—must be specially modified to meet their massive physical requirements.” To “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also have the disadvantage of having their Lifestyle costs doubled to reflect the costs of adapting everything they use—especially their gear, including cyberware or bioware—to meet their massive physical requirements."
The problem is probably coming from them unnecessarily mentioning cyberware and bioware in both descriptions, but forget that and just look at what they're actually talking about: The errata changed the original +50% gear cost (which would effect ware costs) to simply +50% Lifestyle costs. Yes they were justifying both by mentioning the costs of things versus their size, including ware, would increase, but the only thing you actually charge +50% more for is Lifestyle now instead of all gear. It is assumed that the increased lifestyle costs cover 'up-sizing' everything they use.
I was mistaken, gladfully so. I suppose that is my reward for trying to help :) I can't help but think back on my old troll samurai who had barely any ware because his gear was so expensive, at least that campaign ended early. In light of this newfound knowledge perhaps I'll play a proper troll samurai next time! Thanks for pointing this out!
The bigger resource problem is that trolls usually have to spend Priority A and B for attributes/metatype, they wind up getting stuck with C resources, and thus the bargain-basement augmentations. Or they can take C for attributes, meaning that to get halfway-decent physical stats, they need to gimp their mental stats. So basically, Priority and Sum-to-Ten encourage SR1-style trolls - brutes and cheap muscle.
I didn't really see the "tiny troll" thing as a problem, although it continues in SR5 (the smuggler archetype, guess what, Body and Strength of 5). It's not so much people trying to get cheap tanking for their mage or decker; it's just that if you do make such a build, you have to dump your physical stats to be effective at all. But making a troll mage, rigger, etc. is like making an elven fist-fighting tank. It is doable, but far from an optimal build.
Point build definitely discourages trolls with high Body or Strength. Exponentially increasing costs make getting them over 7 or so simply too much of an opportunity cost, unless that is literally their entire schtick, tanking and close combat strikes that do massive damage if they hit.
The bigger resource problem is that trolls usually have to spend Priority A and B for attributes/metatype, they wind up getting stuck with C resources, and thus the bargain-basement augmentations. Or they can take C for attributes, meaning that to get halfway-decent physical stats, they need to gimp their mental stats. So basically, Priority and Sum-to-Ten encourage SR1-style trolls - brutes and cheap muscle.
I didn't really see the "tiny troll" thing as a problem, although it continues in SR5 (the smuggler archetype, guess what, Body and Strength of 5). It's not so much people trying to get cheap tanking for their mage or decker; it's just that if you do make such a build, you have to dump your physical stats to be effective at all. But making a troll mage, rigger, etc. is like making an elven fist-fighting tank. It is doable, but far from an optimal build.
Point build definitely discourages trolls with high Body or Strength. Exponentially increasing costs make getting them over 7 or so simply too much of an opportunity cost, unless that is literally their entire schtick, tanking and close combat strikes that do massive damage if they hit.
Point buy *savaged* Trolls so much that I, for one, was worried that they'd be completely unviable, and resulted in, among other things, changing the attributes to "Buy, then modify" instead of "Change the baseline". Figuring out how much a Troll 'should' cost in terms of points was equally tricky, and we never did get around the problem of "You'll never increase your Strength again due to the karma cost".
In terms of priority, they got more options ... originally, it was A for *any* metatype, but in later editions, Trolls were Race A, while teh others dropped into B and C, encouraging more Elves and Orks, as it should be. :) So, you have more Trolls out there now, but they're still pigeonholed a bit due to "I am a Troll" being a character-defining aspect, unlike "You know, just another Human."
Point buy design for a Troll is also tres difficult. They have a wide array of racial boosts, including enormous attributes ... how to fairly cost that?
Trying to shoehorn a Troll into Karmagen is very, very difficult, and trying to figure out how much they should cost is just one part of it.
While I can, and will, go into a few mechanical examples and show how some of this COULD be done, I want to open the floor up to y'all for a day or two first to see how you'd handle it. Do you nerf the Troll's bonuses? Do you do race mod before or after picking your attributes? How much should being a Troll cost? Should there be a reward for playing to type? Should there be a reward for playing *against* type? Should there be a penalty in place for either form? Just how many Trolls do you want to see at an average table? Should Trolls just be removed as a PC race and moved back to the 'expanded' book (Run Faster was the eventual name) and possibly replaced by something else?
I wouldn't want to lower troll minimum Body and Strength. For hulking creatures topping seven feet tall, and built on a massive scale, 5 is as low as I can see it starting at.
One of the things that hits Trolls is teh Karmacost for Experience. For instance, trying to go from a Strength 9 to a Strength 10 isn't a *huge* thing, but it sets you back 50 Karma. That's a real kick in the pants! And while you'd be better off spending that on several other things, if your concept is to buff up, then you gotta go for the big cost that brings little real gain.
That's a hard bridge to cross.