[Glyph]

The bigger resource problem is that trolls usually have to spend Priority A and B for attributes/metatype, they wind up getting stuck with C resources, and thus the bargain-basement augmentations.  Or they can take C for attributes, meaning that to get halfway-decent physical stats, they need to gimp their mental stats.  So basically, Priority and Sum-to-Ten encourage SR1-style trolls - brutes and cheap muscle.

I didn't really see the "tiny troll" thing as a problem, although it continues in SR5 (the smuggler archetype, guess what, Body and Strength of 5).  It's not so much people trying to get cheap tanking for their mage or decker; it's just that if you do make such a build, you have to dump your physical stats to be effective at all.  But making a troll mage, rigger, etc. is like making an elven fist-fighting tank.  It is doable, but far from an optimal build.

Point build definitely discourages trolls with high Body or Strength.  Exponentially increasing costs make getting them over 7 or so simply too much of an opportunity cost, unless that is literally their entire schtick, tanking and close combat strikes that do massive damage if they hit.

[Shadowjack]

I would just like to throw two thoughts into this discussion.

1. I initially found the increased ware prices pretty brutal but I grew to like them, after all, this is very sophisticated technology.

2. The increased cost on ware for trolls is just devastating, troll samurais are not as fun to build as they used to be because their ware just costs way too much. This is a problem because troll racial stats are heavily weighted towards physical combat, yet they can't afford the things they need. It just feels too limiting.

*Note* These opinions are coming from a person that does not care about archetype balance.

Troll ware doesn't cost any more than anyone else,

Troll's pay 100% more for lifestyle.
Everything else is the same except the guy who wrote the rigger book decided to add a cost for trolls to be comfortable driving.
Why? Because.

I really wish that was true but there is errata for the price changes for trolls.

"TROLL LIFESTYLE COSTS  (P. 65, METATYPE & SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES) The second sentence of this section needs to be clarified. Change: “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also receive the disadvantage of having to pay an additional fifty percent for gear because everything—including cyberware and bioware—must be specially modified to meet their massive physical requirements.” To “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also have the disadvantage of having their Lifestyle costs doubled to reflect the costs of adapting everything they use—especially their gear, including cyberware or bioware—to meet their massive physical requirements."

The problem is probably coming from them unnecessarily mentioning cyberware and bioware in both descriptions, but forget that and just look at what they're actually talking about: The errata changed the original +50% gear cost (which would effect ware costs) to simply +50% Lifestyle costs. Yes they were justifying both by mentioning the costs of things versus their size, including ware, would increase, but the only thing you actually charge +50% more for is Lifestyle now instead of all gear. It is assumed that the increased lifestyle costs cover 'up-sizing' everything they use.

I was mistaken, gladfully so. I suppose that is my reward for trying to help I can't help but think back on my old troll samurai who had barely any ware because his gear was so expensive, at least that campaign ended early. In light of this newfound knowledge perhaps I'll play a proper troll samurai next time! Thanks for pointing this out!

[Dinendae]

I was mistaken, gladfully so. I suppose that is my reward for trying to help I can't help but think back on my old troll samurai who had barely any ware because his gear was so expensive, at least that campaign ended early. In light of this newfound knowledge perhaps I'll play a proper troll samurai next time! Thanks for pointing this out!

Happy to help! 

[Wakshaani]

The bigger resource problem is that trolls usually have to spend Priority A and B for attributes/metatype, they wind up getting stuck with C resources, and thus the bargain-basement augmentations.  Or they can take C for attributes, meaning that to get halfway-decent physical stats, they need to gimp their mental stats.  So basically, Priority and Sum-to-Ten encourage SR1-style trolls - brutes and cheap muscle.

I didn't really see the "tiny troll" thing as a problem, although it continues in SR5 (the smuggler archetype, guess what, Body and Strength of 5).  It's not so much people trying to get cheap tanking for their mage or decker; it's just that if you do make such a build, you have to dump your physical stats to be effective at all.  But making a troll mage, rigger, etc. is like making an elven fist-fighting tank.  It is doable, but far from an optimal build.

Point build definitely discourages trolls with high Body or Strength.  Exponentially increasing costs make getting them over 7 or so simply too much of an opportunity cost, unless that is literally their entire schtick, tanking and close combat strikes that do massive damage if they hit.

Point buy *savaged* Trolls so much that I, for one, was worried that they'd be completely unviable, and resulted in, among other things, changing the attributes to "Buy, then modify" instead of "Change the baseline". Figuring out how much a Troll 'should' cost in terms of points was equally tricky, and we never did get around the problem of "You'll never increase your Strength again due to the karma cost".

In terms of priority, they got more options ... originally, it was A for *any* metatype, but in later editions, Trolls were Race A, while teh others dropped into B and C, encouraging more Elves and Orks, as it should be. So, you have more Trolls out there now, but they're still pigeonholed a bit due to "I am a Troll" being a character-defining aspect, unlike "You know, just another Human."

Point buy design for a Troll is also tres difficult. They have a wide array of racial boosts, including enormous attributes ... how to fairly cost that?

[revan.be]

hello, wakshaani,  a small unrelated question,
when are you going to update your OP for the Archetype challenge?

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21947.105

User Hobbes was even friendly enough to actually do all the work for you ,
and provide a handy list so people can actually have a handy list to choose viable ,
non overpowered , pregen characters from , all you need to do is copypaste it into the first post.

[jim1701]

The bigger resource problem is that trolls usually have to spend Priority A and B for attributes/metatype, they wind up getting stuck with C resources, and thus the bargain-basement augmentations.  Or they can take C for attributes, meaning that to get halfway-decent physical stats, they need to gimp their mental stats.  So basically, Priority and Sum-to-Ten encourage SR1-style trolls - brutes and cheap muscle.

I didn't really see the "tiny troll" thing as a problem, although it continues in SR5 (the smuggler archetype, guess what, Body and Strength of 5).  It's not so much people trying to get cheap tanking for their mage or decker; it's just that if you do make such a build, you have to dump your physical stats to be effective at all.  But making a troll mage, rigger, etc. is like making an elven fist-fighting tank.  It is doable, but far from an optimal build.

Point build definitely discourages trolls with high Body or Strength.  Exponentially increasing costs make getting them over 7 or so simply too much of an opportunity cost, unless that is literally their entire schtick, tanking and close combat strikes that do massive damage if they hit.

Point buy *savaged* Trolls so much that I, for one, was worried that they'd be completely unviable, and resulted in, among other things, changing the attributes to "Buy, then modify" instead of "Change the baseline". Figuring out how much a Troll 'should' cost in terms of points was equally tricky, and we never did get around the problem of "You'll never increase your Strength again due to the karma cost".

In terms of priority, they got more options ... originally, it was A for *any* metatype, but in later editions, Trolls were Race A, while teh others dropped into B and C, encouraging more Elves and Orks, as it should be. So, you have more Trolls out there now, but they're still pigeonholed a bit due to "I am a Troll" being a character-defining aspect, unlike "You know, just another Human."

Point buy design for a Troll is also tres difficult. They have a wide array of racial boosts, including enormous attributes ... how to fairly cost that?

To be fair, IMHO Point Buy sets a very low bar for character viability for any race.  Trolls just get hit hardest.  Making point buy actually BE a point buy as opposed to using karma would be the best option in my view.  Another option is just to raise the amount of karma used in the current point buy system to a more viable level.  My personal opinion would be to add at least 100 (200 - 250 would be better) more karma to the limit. 


As far a priority goes the biggest issues come, IMO, from the fact that different categories don't balance against each other very well at all.  Metatype (A) <> Attributes (A) <> Skills (A) <> Magic/Resonance (A) <> Resources (A) though how much this is true will vary depending on how much you value each category.  The other issue is the way priorities scale down from Priority A to Priority E.  How this could be balanced better for all races is somewhat tough due to the fact that you can't really come up with a standardized karma value for every category. 

[odd]

Trying to shoehorn a Troll into Karmagen is very, very difficult, and trying to figure out how much they should cost is just one part of it.

While I can, and will, go into a few mechanical examples and show how some of this COULD be done, I want to open the floor up to y'all for a day or two first to see how you'd handle it. Do you nerf the Troll's bonuses? Do you do race mod before or after picking your attributes? How much should being a Troll cost?  Should there be a reward for playing to type? Should there be a reward for playing *against* type? Should there be a penalty in place for either form? Just how many Trolls do you want to see at an average table? Should Trolls just be removed as a PC race and moved back to the 'expanded' book (Run Faster was the eventual name) and possibly replaced by something else?

I think the easiest way to balance this would be to let them buy stats before applying racial mods and have the races vary in cost.  If you do it the other way you are double punishing trolls, they have to pay extra for their race and extra for stat increases.

The other part that makes it hard to balance is that not all stats are created equal, STR is probably one of the least valuable stats and BOD is pretty low too.  I'm not sure of priority, but I feel it's something like INT > AGI > REA > BOD ~ CHA ~ WILL > LOG  > STR

[Wakshaani]

Yeah, there's a large disparity between what you get for each category (More Karma in the skills section, for instance) and that some things aren't costly enough (Magic, I'm lookin' at you), which is a whole extra issue. The priority system is quicker and easier, but, it brings a different set of problems to the table. Allocation (IE, "you have 30 points of attributes) is different than purchase (You don't just get a SKill of 4, you have to buy it, with each level costing more) which is different from just rolling (Not that Shadowrun's ever been roll-based, but.)

Ideally, it'd be perfectly balanced, with a flat rate of Karma eing drawn from to allocate to each category, but trying to figure out how many points of Perform (Keytar) is equal to being able to Astrally Project is ... a tad above my pay grade.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Actually, with Sum to 10 you can make viable combat mage troll, I have, but it has some major weaknesses, such as needing cheap sustaining focus (R1) to raise his agility and Focus Con (2 or 3) to hold his increase initiative, with reagents to raise up the limits. For karma gen adding racial stat modifiers after raising stats would help, specially for Troll. Also, changing priority availability for Orc, Dwarf, and Troll to be in and additional 1 priority level lower will help significantly with the play elf/human for everything.

[Grizzly]

A problem with opening up Troll to C is that they can then take Attributes A, Skills B...resources might only be D to start with but that's still 50 grand, up to 70 with karma, and I think there are some qualities you can take for even more cash...which would kind of make the puny-humy street sam almost non-extant.  It would also allow the 'skinny troll mage' concern.

The only way I could see that working is if the minimum STR and BOD scores for a troll were reduced to 4, maybe even 3, but with the current maximums...basically an Ork with higher attribute limits.

[MijRai]

Except lower Charisma, higher costs, etc. 

[Glyph]

I wouldn't want to lower troll minimum Body and Strength.  For hulking creatures topping seven feet tall, and built on a massive scale, 5 is as low as I can see it starting at.

Point build can let you make a troll with, say 7[8] Body and 9 Strength and still come out okay, but going higher, like 9[10] Body and 10 Strength, will result in a character sharply limited in other areas.  Point build does not have enough Karma to approximate some of the more optimized Sum-to-Ten builds.  Giving more points can help, but getting high stats for a troll will still have a large opportunity cost.  A troll getting a 9 and a 10 spends 350 Karma (and they have already spent 90 Karma to be a troll), while a human getting a 5 and a 6 spends only 170 Karma.  Exponentially rising costs can reach a point where they are not worth it, compared to the other things you could get with those resources.

[Grizzly]

I wouldn't want to lower troll minimum Body and Strength.  For hulking creatures topping seven feet tall, and built on a massive scale, 5 is as low as I can see it starting at.

I don't disagree with you.

Since we are purely pondering game theory, one way that might allow for both more accessible trolls and minimize concerns over gaming the system would be to enforce a rule that that you can only have one stat at starting minimum, just as you can only have one at maximum to start. Although that only shifts one attribute point which would not be a primary problem if you could take troll at C, since you could take (as a magician) Magic A and Attributes B. Skills D with the two freebie rank 5 magic skills would be enough to build a decent mage of one variety or another.

The more I think about it, the more letting Trolls be available at C in the current priority system would be too unbalancing for the rest of the options.

[Wakshaani]

One of the things that hits Trolls is teh Karmacost for Experience. For instance, trying to go from a Strength 9 to a Strength 10 isn't a *huge* thing, but it sets you back 50 Karma. That's a real kick in the pants! And while you'd be better off spending that on several other things, if your concept is to buff up, then you gotta go for the big cost that brings little real gain.

That's a hard bridge to cross.

[ProfessorCirno]

As others have mentioned, one issue with trying to create a universal formula for 'ware is that not all attributes are created equal.  Consider Agility vs Logic.  Agility covers a pretty wide array of skills that are of good general use to EVERYONE - just about every runner out there could use stealth, or weapons usage, or gymnastics in a lot of cases.  Logic on the other hand, while certainly tied to a plethora of skills, is mostly made of very specific niche ones.  Most runners are doing just fine without Hardware or Automotive Repair, and even the more generalist skills that most characters could use a point in (like Computers) are just those - skills to put a point in.  On the other hand, for characters that DO use Logic, it skyrockets to the most important attribute they have.  So should they be priced the same?

What about Strength vs Agility?  I don't think it's hard to argue that Agility is more useful then Strength for 90% of characters.

As for one previous mention regarding SINs, keep in mind there is a difference between broadcasting your SIN, showing your SIN, and having your SIN get scanned.  In most street living situations, a level 1 SIN could get you by, and a rating 2 is neigh impenetrable; the guy at the Stuffer Shack isn't going to scan your SIN to make sure you are some evil SINless criminal trying to buy your soy burrito illegally, and the bartender is probably using a rating 1 scanner.  You need rating 3 or 4 if you're going to try to legally enter extraterritorial grounds, go though checkpoints, that sorta thing.  So if you're making Serious Sam the Shooting Man Troll with Uncouth and dastardly low charisma...chances are, you aren't trying to enter those places legally to begin with.

Now, of course, if you're in an extremely high security locale like NYC, that might change.  But NYC is dreadful to run in as written anyways, so just don't do that.