Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Hobbes on <02-19-16/0852:59>
-
Odd question for y'all. How many sets of 'trodes could you wear, do they stack with DataJacks and do they come with a UDP?
The goal here is to have multiple pieces of gear "Plugged in" without having a row of Datajacks.
Theoretically everything comes with a UDP plug so 'Trodes could plug in at least one device. I'm not sure why at least one set of 'trodes wouldn't work just fine with a Datajack(s).
-
Since i picture trodes as something akin to an EEG, that needs contact with the base of your skin, I'd say you can only wear one.
On the question of plugging stuff into a port:
I'd see no problem with plugging in multiple devices into a single port via Y cables.
-
Agree with Duellist, wearing multiple sets of trodes would not make any sense to me.
You only need one DNI interface.
Although personally I think the multiple datajacks concept makes zero sense as well.
-
Wouldnt internal router work for this?
-
By RAW: not clearly defined one way or the other.
At my table I'd allow you to connect everything you own by wire to a single datajack if you wanted to. There's very little mechanical benefit to doing so anyway.
-
Wouldnt internal router work for this?
Yes, for a much higher Essence (and Nuyen) cost. And the Internal Router actually does a bit more.
-
By RAW: not clearly defined one way or the other.
At my table I'd allow you to connect everything you own by wire to a single datajack if you wanted to. There's very little mechanical benefit to doing so anyway.
RAW not clear is the issue as its a Missions character ; )
The mechanical benefit is making it very difficult to spot or hack the icon as you can flick a device on, then off, during your turn. At least with Perfect Time. Very handy to have a couple pieces of gear with a Wireless bonus that are only Wireless during your action.
You could also theoretically have a bunch of grenades at the end of dongles that you can set to wireless detonation with a free action, and be immune to hacking. Unless the hacker can get to the grenade while it's in flight... Free action set grenade, simple action ready, simple action throw, Free action detonate.
It's kind of a game balance concern as it makes combat hacking of several devices almost impossible.
And yes, multiple 'Trodes seems silly.
-
Technically, by RAW the missions FAQ states that if a piece of equipment is Wired it is also not Wireless. I'm not sure about the legality of having wired devices also be wireless; check with your missions GM.
I don't personally see a problem with it, as not all characters will have Perfect Time which is necessary to really exploit this benefit. But then, I'm not a Missions GM, though I believe the ruling for Missions probably is a no given the wired-then-not-wireless interaction.
-
I think the multiple Datajack thing is a bit of a hold over from the old Wired Matrix... I can see then having multiple Datajacks to plug into more than one device at a time could possibly be useful?
-
If you want to get technical about it... DNI of any kind, whether by Trodes against your skull, or Datajack wired into your grey matter... are responsible for both sending and receiving signals into your noodle so you can experience AR and VR.
If you overlapped 2x sets of Trodes, there's a good chance they would start reading each other instead / as well. Like holding two phones against each other, so the callers are talking to each other. One set of Trodes would try to send you Matrix imagery, and the other set of Trodes would pick that up thinking it was input from you. They'd realize they were both sending and receiving conflicting gibberish data, and probably just Blue Screen.
Same thing would most likely happen if you tried to get multiple Datajacks implanted. They'd both be sending and receiving to the exact same locations in your brain, and when you tried to think commands towards one of them, the other(s) would try and execute too.
I think the easiest solution for "I want to hardline all the things" is to just let your players purchase a USB UDC Hub where they can connect everything, with a single line running to their DNI. Basically an external router.
The difference between this and an Internal Router implant being that the Internal is pretty much just for implants. Letting your Wired Reflexes and your Reaction Enhancers play nice together, without risking either one to wireless hacking. This external UDC Hub would just let you hardline your toys and trinkets together. Neither one will fill in for Wireless Bonuses which require Matrix access though, such as the bonus dice from Smartguns and Medkits.
-
Honestly is there any use for the Internal Router outside of Wired Reflexes/Reaction Enhancer combo?
-
Not really, once you look at where the other Wireless Bonuses come from.
The +2 Accuracy from a Smartgun requires direct communication between the Gun and your Eyeware. If you had an implanted Cyber-Smartgun and implanted Cybereyes, you could use the Router to network those together. But the attack dice is a Matrix connection (which you have to dig through fluff text to find the justification) and the Router wouldn't facilitate that.
But yeah, overall the only implants which rely on the service the Router performs, is the Reflexes.
-
Same thing would most likely happen if you tried to get multiple Datajacks implanted. They'd both be sending and receiving to the exact same locations in your brain, and when you tried to think commands towards one of them, the other(s) would try and execute too.
Multiple Data Jacks is explicitly supported already.
I think the easiest solution for "I want to hardline all the things" is to just let your players purchase a USB UDC Hub where they can connect everything, with a single line running to their DNI. Basically an external router.
That would be my house rule, and what I'd recommend. This particular thought exercise is for a Missions character so RAW, RAW, RAW. *shrug* This was mostly a quick poll of the room.
-
Honestly is there any use for the Internal Router outside of Wired Reflexes/Reaction Enhancer combo?
Off the top of my head, the perception bonuses from the assorted gear and sensor augments, noise reduction from Data Jacks, Monowhip stuffs, free action to ready spurs or other Cyberweapons, funny tricks with implanted gear.
Although what the noise reduction from the data jacks is going to accomplish if you're otherwise wireless off, I'm not really sure.
-
Same thing would most likely happen if you tried to get multiple Datajacks implanted. They'd both be sending and receiving to the exact same locations in your brain, and when you tried to think commands towards one of them, the other(s) would try and execute too.
Multiple Data Jacks is explicitly supported already.
Well... kinda.
The freelancer who apparently wrote that section of the book, later came back and said that they intended for people to be able to stack multiple Datajacks. But we've got a few threads recently in which they have come back and said that freelancer intentions are little more than community arguments over RAW vs RAI. Their input after publication is not official errata.
Specifically regarding stacking Datajacks, what's to keep someone from buying 10x of them and never worrying about Noise again. For the price of any other implant, but money and Essence, you have made yourself completely immune to Noise.
It just doesn't fly in my book, nor with a lot of other GMs who have "house ruled" against allowing multiple Datajacks. There's no reason why you need multiple ports in your head, when the world has gone wireless. And there's no reason why you would funnel wireless traffic through several consecutive Datajacks. That's like using a keyboard, plugged into a keyboard... to type on your PC.
-
And there's no reason why you would funnel wireless traffic through several consecutive Datajacks. That's like using a keyboard, plugged into a keyboard... to type on your PC.
Invalid analogy is invalid. Modern day AD/DA converters use serial and/or parallel processing to filter and process signals. If memory serves, parallel processing is more accurate but more expensive both in hardware and potential efficiency gains, at least after a certain point. There are probably sigint guys on here who could elaborate a lot more on this than I, but suffice to say that the tech you so casually dismiss as having "no reason" to exist in Shadowrun has a solid real world equivalent.
If you want to disallow stacking the Noise Reduction of multiple datajacks for game mechanics/balance reasons, that's fine and dandy; your table, your rules. But making blanket statements about how fictional tech based on real world tech that has been around for years doesn't make any sense, well, that just doesn't make any sense.
Remember; all extremes are bad. Except this one ;)
And there's plenty of reasons for many runners to have been around before the WMI, leaving lots of in world reasoning for why a character would have multiple datajacks. Keep in mind that the Wireless Matrix has seen widespread, global usage for less than a decade as of 2074; any runner, and especially Decker, in his mid-20s likely grew up with the wired Matrix and has every reason to have at least one, if not more than one, datajack...
-
Except there are other similar threads about antique implants and gear, like pre-wireless Smartguns that didn't require a Matrix connection to award bonus attack dice. And all of those threads have ended in "Well, this is how it works now. Those antiques don't award bonuses anymore, unless you do what the new rules say."
So regardless of why Grandpa Festus has a bunch of archaic Datajacks in his head, they aren't going to provide the same effects as a store bought Datajack today (well, you know... 2075's "today").
If someone wants to RP having a bunch of leftover chrome brass from the good ol' days, that's fine. But they don't get to stack the current Wireless Bonuses on top of it. Maybe they get multiple hardline connections, but that's about as far as I would go.
Since you don't like the keyboard chain analogy, how about this... picture wearing several Bluetooth headsets simultaneously. Each one is paired with a different cell phone, and they're all set to respond to voice commands. When you say "Call Mom" aloud, each phone is going to think you were talking to them, and start dialing. Now your poor mother has the phone ringing off the hook with all of those calls at once.
If you allow chaining Datajacks together to form a super Noise buffer, you may as well allow chain Slaving of devices. Noise vs Noise Reduction along with stout Firewall vs limited number of Devices... each was put in place for game balance. Stacking Datajacks, like chaining Slaves, is just cheating.
-
Again, invalid analogy.
-
Same thing would most likely happen if you tried to get multiple Datajacks implanted. They'd both be sending and receiving to the exact same locations in your brain, and when you tried to think commands towards one of them, the other(s) would try and execute too.
Multiple Data Jacks is explicitly supported already.
Well... kinda.
Missions FAQ/Errata says the noise reduction from multiple data jacks stacks. Say that three times fast....
Tongue twisters and analogies aside, multiple data jacks are fine for Missions which is about as close to an official ruling as we'll likely see. Everyone is of course free to play it however they want at their table.
-
Same thing would most likely happen if you tried to get multiple Datajacks implanted. They'd both be sending and receiving to the exact same locations in your brain, and when you tried to think commands towards one of them, the other(s) would try and execute too.
Multiple Data Jacks is explicitly supported already.
Well... kinda.
Missions FAQ/Errata says the noise reduction from multiple data jacks stacks. Say that three times fast....
Tongue twisters and analogies aside, multiple data jacks are fine for Missions which is about as close to an official ruling as we'll likely see. Everyone is of course free to play it however they want at their table.
Wait what? Where in the Missions FAQ does it state that? It's not something I've noticed...
-
Same thing would most likely happen if you tried to get multiple Datajacks implanted. They'd both be sending and receiving to the exact same locations in your brain, and when you tried to think commands towards one of them, the other(s) would try and execute too.
Multiple Data Jacks is explicitly supported already.
Well... kinda.
Missions FAQ/Errata says the noise reduction from multiple data jacks stacks. Say that three times fast....
Tongue twisters and analogies aside, multiple data jacks are fine for Missions which is about as close to an official ruling as we'll likely see. Everyone is of course free to play it however they want at their table.
Wait what? Where in the Missions FAQ does it state that? It's not something I've noticed...
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23441.0
Unless there's a different Missions FAQ we're supposed to be looking for, this is the most current (dated 2/17/16).
And using the handy Ctrl F, there is no mention of Datajacks stacking.
-
Same thing would most likely happen if you tried to get multiple Datajacks implanted. They'd both be sending and receiving to the exact same locations in your brain, and when you tried to think commands towards one of them, the other(s) would try and execute too.
Multiple Data Jacks is explicitly supported already.
Well... kinda.
Missions FAQ/Errata says the noise reduction from multiple data jacks stacks. Say that three times fast....
Tongue twisters and analogies aside, multiple data jacks are fine for Missions which is about as close to an official ruling as we'll likely see. Everyone is of course free to play it however they want at their table.
Wait what? Where in the Missions FAQ does it state that? It's not something I've noticed...
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23441.0
Unless there's a different Missions FAQ we're supposed to be looking for, this is the most current (dated 2/17/16).
And using the handy Ctrl F, there is no mention of Datajacks stacking.
Can confirm that... the only times Datajacks are mentioned is using the cable to access throwback/wireless off devises and that a character with Otaku to Technomancer requires a Datajack.
-
Same thing would most likely happen if you tried to get multiple Datajacks implanted. They'd both be sending and receiving to the exact same locations in your brain, and when you tried to think commands towards one of them, the other(s) would try and execute too.
Multiple Data Jacks is explicitly supported already.
Well... kinda.
Missions FAQ/Errata says the noise reduction from multiple data jacks stacks. Say that three times fast....
Tongue twisters and analogies aside, multiple data jacks are fine for Missions which is about as close to an official ruling as we'll likely see. Everyone is of course free to play it however they want at their table.
Wait what? Where in the Missions FAQ does it state that? It's not something I've noticed...
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23441.0
Unless there's a different Missions FAQ we're supposed to be looking for, this is the most current (dated 2/17/16).
And using the handy Ctrl F, there is no mention of Datajacks stacking.
Can confirm that... the only times Datajacks are mentioned is using the cable to access throwback/wireless off devises and that a character with Otaku to Technomancer requires a Datajack.
Yeah, my bad, not in the FAQ, was a Dev post by the Demo team. So 2nd most official answer you're going to find.
-
C-c-c-c-combo breaker!!!
Yeah, my bad, not in the FAQ, was a Dev post by the Demo team. So 2nd most official answer you're going to find.
Yeah, about that... they've recently started coming back and saying that Freelancer input on the forums really just amounts to another member of the community arguing RAI vs RAW. It's not "official" errata, and thus doesn't change the game aside from recommending house rules.
-
"They" ?
Anyway, if the assorted writers, developers and folks that actually have input into the official rules don't count as RAI I don't know what does. Plus a couple decades of history of multiple Datajacks and no real strong RAW argument for not stacking.
You are of course free to do as you will at your table.
-
"They" ?
Anyway, if the assorted writers, developers and folks that actually have input into the official rules don't count as RAI I don't know what does. Plus a couple decades of history of multiple Datajacks and no real strong RAW argument for not stacking.
You are of course free to do as you will at your table.
I believe the intention is to make a distinction between "Input from someone who worked on the material" and "This is official errata". They can certainly be taken as strong grounds for house rules, but not as anything official.
-
Plus a couple decades of history of multiple Datajacks and no real strong RAW argument for not stacking.
A couple decades of hardlined Matrix, where you needed all those ports in order to interface with all your gear.
These days, everything is wireless. You don't need to hardline into anything anymore, unless you really want to. And it's far easier to handwave a Hub you can plug everything into, than it is to allow compounding Noise Reduction to the point that you have no hindrances.
SR5 added distance based Noise into the equation, to force Deckers out of the basement and into the van with the rest of the team. If you can sacrifice a single point of Essence, and a mere 1,000¥, in order to give yourself an automatic +10 Noise Reduction... there's no reason to leave the safety of your pillow fort.
-
Deckers can stay in the pillow fort just fine. Satellite dish and assorted stacking noise reduction makes it fairly easy. Stacking Datajacks not required, just makes it slightly easier, or able to park the Van further back. The main motivation for Deckers to get out of the Van is for direct access, or to gain physical access for hardware or other required tests. Or if by GM fiat that remote hacking doesn't work. Or to do things other than Decking. *shrug* If the playstyle appeals to a player they can accomplish it even if stacking Datajacks is disallowed at a particular table.
And "...all those ports in order to interface with all your gear." was the point of the OP. I'm not sure why a basic function of DataJacks would suddenly stop, clearly YMMV.
-
also everything has a universal cable port and deckers can double as getaway drivers if they stay in the van
-
What Hobbes said. Satellite Link + 5 points of Noise Reduction is likely more cost effective both in terms of Nuyen and Essence than 10 Data Jacks, and has the benefit of being unequivocally legal. Stay At Home Hackers are not hampered by distance related noise at all, if they decide they want to compensate for it.
Instead, those hackers will face host ratings they cannot circumvent, at least not as long as the GM doesn't allow Direct Connections to be gained wirelessly via Data Taps.
So that's the driver (wait for it) for getting hackers out of the van (hah!), not distance related noise...
-
Also things like:
Offline wired systems.
Faraday construction.
Wireless static/spam zones.
A satellite uplink only effects Noise from distance, it does nothing for noise caused my bad/overloaded connections and countermeasures.
-
Weirdly, though, noise not from distance is only applied at the source by RAW; at least that seems to be the the calculations are made in the book.
And if you apply noise from both the target and the destination you end up with potential heaps of Noise, which also seems odd as a person using a deck in a -5 spam to hack another dive in a different -5 spam zone that is halfway across the world for another -8 would suffer up to -18 noise. The book only applies one of those spam zones, and that's the one that affects the device you are using. So in the above example, a satellite link would reduce noise by 3 to the minimum of 5, and then you could move yourself out of the spam zone you are in for another -5 reduction, to the point where you're only facing -5 for distance, which you can easily counter, even if the device you are targeting is in its own -5 spam zone.