Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sir_Prometheus on <03-07-16/1355:46>
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Making a unarmed adept (for runnerhub) if it matters. Run the #'s and satisfied that human actually works better than orc, but the human does have about 2 points less dmg.
General question, do you think it's worth it to get bone lacing? Aluminum, specifically. (cuz chargen limit of availability 12, can't fit Titanium under 1 essence)
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Because bone lacing directly affects your unarmed attacks, it isn't a bad idea. Of course, any essence loss drops your magic, and robs you of PP, which can be used for many things. The increase of Body and Armor aren't bad, either.
Boils down to personal preference, really. I'd personally avoid the 'ware, and invest that PP in things which either enhance my unarmed attacks, or help with other things, such as wall running, combat senses, and so on. Being able to maneuver in three dimensions and avoiding hits rather than soaking them is generally better, IMO. But YMMV.
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If you can't get titanium, I wouldn't bother.
But if you take the Transhuman quality, you can fit bone density bioware and striking calluses into your character without losing essence. It's an easy +3 or 4 to damage.
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Used Titanium Bone Lacing is easily available and still comes in at under 2 Essence. (1.875 actually)
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So, can't (won't) do titanium. A) That would be the loss of 2 magic rather than 1 B) 16R means you can't get it at character gen. Even replacing it with better 'ware alter, Betaware Titanium comes in at 1.05 essence, meaning 2 magic. Just not willing to lose 2 magic, really. If deltaware becomes available, sure.
Transhuman and bone density is a decent idea, except that this is Runnerhub, and that would be a "special character" This is my first runnerhub character....anyway, can't do it yet. Maybe next time.
So it sounds like overall, you guys aren't against the idea. It's +2 armor, +2 body (mostly), and +2 dmg, so that's all pretty good for -1 Magic.
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Can't you get delta ware titanium through use of the Restricted Gear quality?
So 10 karma, 75,000 nuyen and 0,75 essence to start with +3 body/armor/unarmed damage and only costs you 1 magic.
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Restricted gear only changes availability - you still can't get deltaware.
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Restricted gear only changes availability - you still can't get deltaware.
This. It specifically forbids Delta at Chargen because of the rarity and exclusivity of delta clinics
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I thought you couldn't even get betaware at chargen, regardless of availability.
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Ah, I see. I just remembered availability going up so I assumed those grades would be allowed too.
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Sir P- not trying to talk you into titanium as I understand not trying to lose more than 1 ess.
However- used bio/cyberware has a lower availability so used titanium is a 12 not the original 16.
Having said that,,If I'm going to lose 1 MR I'd rather get Used Muscle Toner [3] .75ess 69750 nuyen availability 11... hitting more often is more important than whether you base is 7 or 9 DV.. A troll with 16 DV but only 8 DP is going to do less damage over time than an elf with 5 DV but 18DP.
Of course just 2 Used Muscle Toner plus Boost Attribute(AGI)[1] is sufficient to get you the +4 augmented maximum. This would free up space to take .5 ess worth of stuff.
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As an aside I don't get why they don't errata cyber snob quality's cost and allow you to buy betaware in chargen since you can only buy betaware or better with this quality.
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I think it was meant to be alphaware, not betware. Runnerhub has house ruled it as such.
Anyway, I'm an adept, I sorta doubt hitting things is going to be an issue. And one you hit things, 1 dv is roughly equal to 3 dice.
If there was an adept power that replicated bone lacing (even if more expensive), I'd do that, but there isn't really. (well, you can combine 3 or different powers...but you get the idea, and it's a LOT more expensive.)
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The only dev that chimed in on Cyber Snob as I recall was Wak who didn't write the quality. He said he'd drop the cost and change it to alpha but that doesn't mean the original author's or the line editor's intent is the same as Wak said he'd prefer to do to balance it.
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As an aside I don't get why they don't errata cyber snob quality's cost and allow you to buy betaware in chargen since you can only buy betaware or better with this quality.
A better question is "why don't they release any updates errata in general" :P
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cuz erratas don't make money? Usually the answer
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As an aside I don't get why they don't errata cyber snob quality's cost and allow you to buy betaware in chargen since you can only buy betaware or better with this quality.
but You can't get Betaware at Char gen.
so this pos Qual is useless !
unless CGL starts to get their Errata right.
(and it ails me even more that this Messup is also in the German Book)
I think it was meant to be alphaware, not betware.
Of course it's supposed to be Alphaware.
HougH!
Medicineman
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Now I wonder how many wannabe-cyber snobs declared that beta-ware isn't good enough for them and they insist on receiving the latest omega-ware ::)
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Hahaha
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If your characters can afford Delta-ware (much less Gamma/Omega!) you're getting a lot more nuyen for your runs than I am!
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Oh believe me, you can afford Omega ware... ;D
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Omega ware cost the same as Used in terms of nuyen and the same as standard in terms of essence. You just can't turn its wireless functions off
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@PiXeL01
you are confusing that with Cybersuits. Omega ware is glitchy and has a drawback that's determined by the GM - a lot of people take the "costs 125% essence drawback ;) )
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I actually thinking about the optional rules on p. 71 CF about omega ware. No additional essence loss but glitches or "features"
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That is LITERALLY what he just said...
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I was clarifying that I was not talking about Cybersuites which do give a discount but as loud with tags.
I'm so sorry I got them a little mixed up. No need to be loud about it though.
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That is LITERALLY what he just said...
Actually it isn't what Jack Spade literally said...
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Anyways, getting back on topic...
Especially for a human, who can't start with a strength score of 16, wringing as much damage as possible out of those fists is extremely important. Strength, you can easily boost later to hit your augmented max. Bone lacing is a more permanent measure, much more difficult to build upon, and once you have it, you're cut off from the more potent option.
Bone lacing goes up to rating 3. Bone density goes up to 4, and costs less essence. Yes, even alpha grade bone density 4 will cost you more than one essence, but that +4P to your unarmed attacks is irreplaceable. Add in either two or four striking calluses (either each hand, or each hand and each foot, depending on how Runner Hub rules), and it's worth the two lost points of magic, easily, since when you add in Critical Strike, you're doing STR+7P damage. If you're genetically optimized with exceptional attribute: strength and at your augmented maximum for 12 strength, you'd hit your limit at 19P baseline damage for a punch.
At normal grade, bone density 4 (restricted gear), plus four striking calluses, plus genetic optimization would run you 1.9 essence. Worth it.
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Rating 4 Bone Density "only" gives +3 to damage. The first level turns it into Physical damage. And two pairs of Striking Callus give you +2 unarmed DV. So your damage would be STR+5. Still very potent though.
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Critical Strike is also in his build for 1 more point. STR +6 in the end
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My goodness. A Troll, going with genetic optimization and exceptional attribute would clock in at a top damage code of 23 (P). In other words, you can hit someone like a fragmentation rocket, only without the +5 AP. Could you imagine? He would be fully capable of going through cop cars like paper mache, he could shatter the weapons in enemy hands. He would take down the building as he charged out through the walls.
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Then falls to stunbolts.
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Critical Strike is also in his build for 1 more point. STR +6 in the end
Ah, sorry.
My goodness. A Troll, going with genetic optimization and exceptional attribute would clock in at a top damage code of 23 (P). In other words, you can hit someone like a fragmentation rocket, only without the +5 AP. Could you imagine? He would be fully capable of going through cop cars like paper mache, he could shatter the weapons in enemy hands. He would take down the building as he charged out through the walls.
I guess this is the point where Superhuman Psychosis is almost mandatory.
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Seeing this I have been thinking to do it with Orks though they can only reach 20P with the above setup. Of course then additional considerations go into whether 19P as Oni with an additional agility or Ogre (20P) with additional Willpower would be better paths
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My goodness. A Troll, going with genetic optimization and exceptional attribute would clock in at a top damage code of 23 (P). In other words, you can hit someone like a fragmentation rocket, only without the +5 AP. Could you imagine? He would be fully capable of going through cop cars like paper mache, he could shatter the weapons in enemy hands. He would take down the building as he charged out through the walls.
Good luck in getting the build to do anything else, though. Seems it would be very exposed in other areas.
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My goodness. A Troll, going with genetic optimization and exceptional attribute would clock in at a top damage code of 23 (P). In other words, you can hit someone like a fragmentation rocket, only without the +5 AP. Could you imagine? He would be fully capable of going through cop cars like paper mache, he could shatter the weapons in enemy hands. He would take down the building as he charged out through the walls.
Good luck in getting the build to do anything else, though. Seems it would be very exposed in other areas.
And that's the real trick, isn't it? You can do some extremely OP things, but you'll be taken down like lightning when someone focuses on your weaknesses. A good parallel would be a D&D Fighter that puts everything into STR and CON, to become the best tank he can be. But he still folds the instant someone targets his Will save.
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It's much easier to plug the holes in Shadowrun, though. That troll is most likely gonna have an impressive soak pool. Won't have much use for Wireless since Unarmed is better than all weapons. Stunbolts are easy to fight off with the Magic Resistance quality. It is however unlikely that all of this is present directly after chargen.
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And he'll have to survive until then. Actually, though, stunbolts aren't the thing that troll needs to worry about. Mental Manipulation spells are. Even with Magic Resistance maxed out, that's still just Logic+Willpower+4 to resist a Control Actions spell. Benefit of the doubt, say he's got 3 Will and 3 Log. Not likely, but still. In that case, he'll have 10 dice to resist a caster that can easily be throwing 12-16 dice. And you only need one net hit to have One Punch Troll go slaughtering his teammates. And when the troll is the only one left, I don't care how good your soak pool is, a half dozen guards with assault rifles all concentrating FA fire on you is going to HURT.
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To be fair: Mind magic against a team without a good counter speller at hand will almost always fuck up the team, regardless of it's other components.
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One Punch Troll <3
EDIT: Mirikon, are you discussing just-out-of-chargen characters? Because no-one in their right mind would focus this much on melee attacks at the start. I'd expect a character like this to build up over time, along with magical defense and enough Willpower to withstand a lot of pesky spells. Honestly, getting max rating Bone Density and Muscle Augmentation/Replacement is going to take a toll on your karma if not bought in-game.
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Personally, I think it'd be best to focus close to that much on punching at chargen, then fan out into more defensive abilities as you advance. Great damage and good physical soak should get you a ways in early adventures.
For maximum damage output, may as well mention a bear shifter changeling could squeeze out 3 more strength.
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Shifters have 'issues' with augmentations, Rose.
And yeah, Adamo, if you're going to go high end puchomatic, then you need to pour as much as you can into it at the start. Things stretch a helluvalot further at chargen than they do in play. Scraping the karma together to bump your troll's STR from 9 to 10 is a helluvalot more difficult than raising your WILL from 2 to 3. Same with any augmentations. No such thing as recovery time or availability rolls at chargen.
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Come to think about it, my GM is quite generous with karma rewards. Kinda prefer to se the character evolve instead of starting with a powerful one, though.
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Shifters have 'issues' with augmentations, Rose.
Then cyclops for one less. But I thought shifters could, at a cost, as long as they don't burn out and become muggle animals.
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Shifters have 'issues' with augmentations, Rose.
not anymore
They used to have Problems because of their Regeneration ( only Deltaware IIRC )
but since they have no more Regeneration = no more Problems with Ware (at least it makes no more sense ingame.
There is otoh the Ingame Problem of : Who the fak makes 'Ware for Animals ? )
JahtaHey
Medicineman
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People who organize dog fights and deploy them in military combat :(
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You've obviously never had your party wiped by a cyberzombie rhino. :P
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You've never been on the receiving end of biodrones, have you, Medicineman?
But as for the rest, I was more wondering what happens to the ware when they shift. Especially with something like bone lacing, when the bones will be moving and changing shape.
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Come to think about it, my GM is quite generous with karma rewards. Kinda prefer to se the character evolve instead of starting with a powerful one, though.
One does not have to punch harder to evolve. There's upward growth, then there's outward growth. I think it's a greater evolution to see One Punch Troll develop a more diverse pool of abilities having started out with awesome punching.
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Another addition, for One Punch Troll.
If you go with the interpretation that multiple pairs of striking calluses stack, and that you can only have one striking callus per limb...
Surge. Shiva arms, times two. You have four more arms, for four more striking calluses, for an additional +2P.
And! If you turn into a ghoul, you get a higher strength cap.
Time to go full-on silly!
This brings our omega ultimate killer super death punch to...
Cyclops (11 Str baseline cap)
Exceptional Attribute, Genetic Optimization, and the surge power to boost your strength cap (+3 strength cap, now 14)
Ghoul! (+3 strength cap, now 17)
Any means of boosting your strength to your augmented limit (strength 21)
Bone Lacing/Bone Density 4 (+3P, damage is now 24P)
Critical Strike (+1P, now 25P)
Shiva Arms x2, with Striking Calluses x8 (+4P, now 29P)
Penetrating Strike 4 (now 29P/-4)
If you rule ghoul troll stats override cyclops stats instead of being some additive thing, then 28P/-4.
Sadly, ursine shapeshifters can't seem to become infected by any stock template, so it'd be the realm of, "Your GM really wants you to have a 'fun' run." Otherwise, you could have a six-armed zombie bear dude hitting people really hard in the face for 30P/-4.
Now, the GM takes that six-armed cyclops ghoul throwing 29P/-4 punches and makes it a toxic adept punching you in the face with radiation damage.
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Well, you know what they say - you can't damage what you can't hit, and you can't hit what you don't know has already killed you.
"Intelligence over agility. Agility over strength. Strength over weakness."
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Well, you know what they say - you can't damage what you can't hit, and you can't hit what you don't know has already killed you.
"Intelligence over agility. Agility over strength. Strength over weakness."
So true. Why I prefer Mage Trolls (Minotaur) (Sum to 10). Troll's lack of agility (especially if Str and Body maxed/near maxed) limits how effective at melee they are more than you think. Being 1 lower than combat human or 2 lower than combat elf (base values, no augment/magic) is not as bad as I thought (thought max agility 4), but compound by lack of mental stats for maxed str/body and you will have problems. And with the mental abilities being lower, them knowing when to fight, when to sneak, and when to run might be an issue as well, if RP with low mental stats in mind.
All of this really points to why Elf's, Orcs, and Humans are best at melee. Not for pure damage, but for max agility, high strength and body, good mental stats (especially will). And humans trump card, Edge, glorious Edge.