Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Senko on <05-06-16/1959:45>
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I don't mean the generally used 1% of the larger population. I'm curious how many aspected mages to a full mage, how many adepts and mages to mystic adepts that sort of thing.
For example 9 aspected mages to a full mage or adept and 5 full mages or adepts to 1 mystic adepts.
So in 102 awakened people you'd Have 90 aspected mages, 10 mage/adepts (probably 5 of each as I figure these two are equally common) and 2 mystic adepts.
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Well, the general consensus in the past has been... Well, not much of a consensus. There's some clear points (a general 1% of the world population is Awakened, with variable counts in a number of regions to either direction (Aztechnology/Aztlan has an average of 2% Awakened, for example). Your example of 9 Aspected Magicians for every normal Magician is actually accurate as of... Street Grimoire, I believe.
The main issue is where the books explain that only a 'fraction' of the 1% are actually functional. A lot of the Awakened end up being:
A. Unaware of their Awakened status; the talent needs to be found and nurtured, and they got missed.
B. Burned out, whether it be from drugs, 'ware, Essence drain or something else.
C. Ineffective. A number of the Awakened aren't really mana-slingers, they're just sensitive to the presence of magic or things going on. There aren't really any by-the-book mechanical means to represent this at the moment. Maybe they tried and couldn't cut it, maybe they just never bothered.
D. Insane. Magic does weird things to your head, and a lot of people who try to learn it can get all sorts of messed up. This is also where Toxics, Bug Shamans and Blood Mages fall.
These factors can make them the equivalent to a magical non-entity.
So, how big is this fraction of functional Awakened compared to the dross? Most people tend to make it less than 50%, because why call it a fraction when it's a majority? After some discussion, I (and a few others) went with a flat 25% of the Awakened population is functional; i.e. they have an appreciable Magic Rating and skill. This is anywhere from the Magic 1, newly Awakened street-punk who can light cigarettes with the snap of his fingers to Harlequin-level, dozens-of-initiations super-magicians.
The other 'problem' is they never give a clear proportion of adepts to magicians. Sure, there's 9 Aspected Magicians to every Magician, but how many Adepts to the spell-slingers and summoners? I pulled 20% out of my ass, mostly because nothing suggests they're more common than magicians, but not extremely rare either.
So, the numbers I and a few others use, out of one million:
1,000,000 People.
Now, 1% of 1,000,000 is the 'Awakened' Metahuman population.
-990,000 Mundanes.
10,000 'Awakened.
The functional fraction we're using is going to be 25%.
-7,500 Crazies, Incompetents, Untapped Talents, Burn-Outs.
2,500 Functional Awakened.
This is where we break it down into the kinds.
1,800 Aspected Magicians
~600 Conjurers
~600 Sorcerers
~600 Enchanters
200 Full Magicians
500 Adepts
Now, I don't give a slot for Mystic Adepts. I generally figure they're much rarer, and they'd mess up my pretty, even numbers. So I just hand-wave that they pop up occasionally in the Full Magician or Adept pool once in a while.
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Nice and detailed thank you although I'm looking more into potential I guess as you'd put it. That is for this I don't really care if they're insane burnt out, too young, not interested just what percentage of a population of awakened individuals is what then from that your other values can be applied e.g. in a town of 120 thousand there are 1,200 magically awakened of which 900 are x, of those 900 234 are actually usable because of X, Y and z circumstances.
I find your comments on adepts vs mages interesting as I'd always gotten the impression those two where roughly equal in numbers even if they moved in different fields (sports as opposed to corporate jobs)
I'm also a little disturbed my 9 to 1 value matches up to street grimoire as I picked it because it was 9am when I made the post. Same with my mages to mystic adepts actually it was 8:5 something so I went with 5 to 1.
Not a lot of functional full mages that only 4,200 for the whole of Australia and less than 60 thousand worldwide given our current population, a sellers market I guess .
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Don't forget that not all mages are 'full' magic, either. (Although personally I count this into those 75% that were listed as non-active)
That many are awakened, but have only 1-3 magic, so not much good for most spells or summoning, but still helpful in a ritual team (for full mages or aspected casters), or are just a little better at some things (adepts), or make some small money gathering reagents possibly (aspected alchemists). Probably feels like rather a ripoff to be a summoner with 2 magic, but still can astrally perceive, do some small spirit security patrols, or maybe be able to initiate and study up to a higher ability level.
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So let me get this straight. In theory there are actually lots of unaware awakened? But they burn out or never get guided through their magic? Couldn't a totem or somethint intervine?
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That gets a little more difficult Senko, as they never give us an accurate measurement of what a talentless Awakened can do (or any clue as to how many people are like them). Do they have a Magic rating of 1 and can use Assensing only? Can they cast a single spell intermittently? We don't have the answers for that. As far as the undiscovered and insane go, that's simple enough; just take a chunk out of the 7,500 out of the non-functional Awakened and apply the same proportions as the functional.
Everything I remember on adepts vs. magicians is that Adepts are more obscure/less common overall. It might not be a 4 to 1 difference, but I'm pretty sure there is one.
Beta, I factored in the Aspected Magicians. Those are functional, as much as some folks around here denigrate them. And you're really down-playing the spectacular results an Aspected Conjurer can get with some work put in.
And to be specific Joe, there are a fraction of the populace like that. It's never stated how big of a fraction, but that it is mentioned as a reason some Awakened don't/can't use their talents, I would assume it is at least 5% of the non-functional Awakened. Any smaller and it isn't really worth mentioning. As a lot of schools do magical testing around puberty, I'd figure most of the people who go through their lives without really knowing that they are Awakened are late bloomers or latent talents.
As far as mentor spirits go, there's 7 billion people in Shadowrun. People can get missed. Or an appropriate mentor spirit can't find them. Or the mentor spirit in question only helps those who call out to them. Or the mentor spirit looks at the person and go 'eesh, something ain't right, let's leave this one alone...' There's any number of options as to why a mentor spirit wouldn't try to mess with people.
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Don't forget, harnessing magic takes effort. Migraine inducing, blood vessel popping effort! And in the case of overcasting, Heart stopping, skin burning, mind frying effort!
When sonething takes that level of effort to achieve success, MOST people don't even make the attempt...
And to many people, magic is scary (read the intro to Street Grimoire again), so they never make the effort to try to learn.
People waste God Given Talent everyday. So many people choose to do the easy thing rather then invest in a natural talent (such as Art, dance, music, mathematics..)... I don't find it hard at all to believe that a majority of people with magical talent don't even realise it.
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Speaking from a purely mechanical perspective and without access to my books I don't think any magic skills can be used untrained which as said above argues toward it having to be a concious directed decision to perform a Magic task so I can easily see someone slipping through the net especially in a lot of the world where they don't even get education much less have a mage go through looking for potential. You'd need to be found and trained or have the talent (of some nature) and the drive to develop the techniques yourself probably with lots of failures.
I did sort of assume those collected by a mentor spirit are in the functional group as not everyone does have a mentor spirit and not all mentor spirits work/Teach the same way
On a more personal note I see aspected mages as falling into lesser and greater groups. The lesser ones are the ones who get used in job lots for ritual circles or "mundane" tasks like reagent hunting. The greater role are those as skilled in their field as a mage but hired by smaller companies for less (they can only o 1 role of 3 but thats all the company wants and is willing to pay for) or are more skilled in their field than a full mage because they could focus on one area and become a specialist. You can hire one person who is average at spellcasting. Summoning and enchanting or one person who is excellent at spellcasting, summoning OR enchanting. It depends what the company wants. Full mages on the other hand tend towards learning at least some of all 3 fields and are more valuable than the average aspected because instead of hiring 3 people to do the work you hire one at 1.5 to twice the amount and give them all the jobs saving you money overall. That is. . ..
Average aspected: can only do one thing earns 80k before tax
Average mage: can do 3 things earns 120k before tax.
Specialist aspected: can do one thing really, really well earns 150k+ before tax usually consulting at thousands of Nuyen an hour.
Just my personal view on how aspected vs full mages interact with companies and of course there are exceptions those doing grunt work who earn a lot less and those full mages who are very, very skilled cough Harlequin cough.
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>> I'm curious how many aspected mages to a full mage, how many adepts and mages to mystic adepts that sort of thing.
Oficial SR5 Fluff is:
90% of all Mages are aspected (its in the Street Grimoire)
generally half of the Awakened are Mages of different Traditions and the other Half are Adepts , including Mystic Adepts.
(afaik the fifty fifty Ratio of Mages and Adepts is Canon since 2nd Edition)
I don't know the Ratio of Mystc to vanilla Adepts.
just for the Records:
1% awakened among the Population is the Maximum.
You have to subtract those that are yet too Young, already too Old, those that got killed by dumb, superstitious mob (like in some Islamic Countries), those that got crazy or couldn't cope mentally and also with too small a Talent (f.E. the MAG 1 Spökenkieker)
but that has already been mentioned up above
>> (Aztechnology/Aztlan has an average of 2% Awakened, for example).
Wowey....I didn't know that :) Did You get that from Shadows of Latin America ?
With a non-Awakened Dance
Medicineman
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So let me get this straight. In theory there are actually lots of unaware awakened? But they burn out or never get guided through their magic? Couldn't a totem or somethint intervine?
not really a lot.
There is a kind of Magic Screening for Kids in School (sponsored by friendly Megacons ;) ) to seek and aquire those talents
and they have .... Talent Scouts searching among the SINless to give those Kids a Chance in Life ....
(that means putting them in a golden Corp Cage and Brainwashing them)
and there's also the organised Crime thats also interessted and last but not least the Gouvernment/Secret Service /Militarty Organisations that are also looking for Awakened...
but some have to fall between the filter, or else there wouldn't be any PC Mages and Adepts ;)
with a filtered Dance
Medicineman
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That number is out of the Aztlan Sourcebook, actually. Where's the source for the 50/50 Mage/Adept split? That'd be a nice thing to find.
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>> Where's the source for the 50/50 Mage/Adept split?
Holla die Walfeeh....
From the 90's I guess SR2 or 3 (I'm sorry , but i don't own those books anymore)
HokaHey
Medicineman
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That number is out of the Aztlan Sourcebook, actually. Where's the source for the 50/50 Mage/Adept split? That'd be a nice thing to find.
It does seem to be a recurring theme, that the awakened or magic friendly nations ( Amazonia, Aztlan, Paraguay, both Tirs, Siberia, Manchuria and at least some of the NAN nations ) have a higher than average number of awakened ( about 1-3% higher ). Which does seem to suggest that the 1% globally is probably a temporary number. More accepting environment and better testing ( all of which they have in the awakened nations ) will likely boost the number globally at some point in the 6th worlds future.
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Or, all the regions where they aren't so accepting of magic end up with lower-than-average zones as well. I am reasonably sure it'll stay around a global average of 1%; any more, and it might saturate the setting too much.
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This is why I asked. From one source I don't have I find out that some countries can have a higher or lower percentage and from another it is 50/50 for mages and adepts. Which suggests possibilities for mystic adepts although I suspect that will come down to GM preference (I know I'd like to get rid of aspected mages as they offend me).
As for the global percentage you also need to consider the reason they are higher is mages want to live there. Say you awakened as a shaman with coyote mentoring you in one of the anti-magic or slanted towards s specific tradition would you risk your life staying there or run for somewhere you can practice openly?
I thought the testing was more of a guide on who to look at, I know I read something about it not being entirely reliable. I do know there's enough poor areas that wouldn't have the VR for that testing, they don't even have proper schools for Street kids and be dangerous, remote or too extensive for a mage to catch everyone. Although I do expect it happens often enough some Kids dream of a wealthy, powerful mage appearing to whisk them (and maybe family/friends) off to a life of privilege and luxury.
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Or, all the regions where they aren't so accepting of magic end up with lower-than-average zones as well. I am reasonably sure it'll stay around a global average of 1%; any more, and it might saturate the setting too much.
Agreed thats why it's 1% globally right now. Let me clarify, when i talk about in the future, i'm talking 100-200 years down the line where everybody and their grandparents grew up with magic being part of the world. At that point in time it would seem rather stupid to be anti-awakened. But this is of course not a future we will ever see in the game, i agree, they will keep it at the 1% globally for the forseeable future in the game.
I thought the testing was more of a guide on who to look at, I know I read something about it not being entirely reliable. I do know there's enough poor areas that wouldn't have the VR for that testing, they don't even have proper schools for Street kids and be dangerous, remote or too extensive for a mage to catch everyone. Although I do expect it happens often enough some Kids dream of a wealthy, powerful mage appearing to whisk them (and maybe family/friends) off to a life of privilege and luxury.
Indeed it's not completely reliable but some countries do it better than others.
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SR2 Awakenings, p.9 (in-setting Info) Magicians are fairly rare. Statistics show that about one person in a hundred has enough talent to make active use of magic. Of those individuals, only about one in ten are fully capable magicians, while others are adepts or untrained individuals. Approximately 3-4 million fully capable magicians exist today,and studies show their number rising each year..
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SR2 Awakenings, p.9 (in-setting Info) Magicians are fairly rare. Statistics show that about one person in a hundred has enough talent to make active use of magic. Of those individuals, only about one in ten are fully capable magicians, while others are adepts or untrained individuals. Approximately 3-4 million fully capable magicians exist today,and studies show their number rising each year..
Which was the late 2050s (2e time line).
So that 3-4 million figure has gone up.... not drastically, but up none the less.
Or, its been silently retconned (which can happen when you have multiple authors working on the same project over a number of years, through 3 different companies)
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Come to think of it, where there's money to be made there's competition to be removed. Just as there are innumerable "new age" books in circulation here and now, the same will be true for the Sixth World. Some/most will be pure fluff, probably ensuring that many unaware awakened never quite develops the mindset needed to survive as a mage or shaman. Some will have useful little spells that do just enough to satisfy an aspected dabbler with Magic 1. And some will have one or two really cool spells (to the teenage/young adult mind) or enchantments, practically guaranteed to require a tricky amount of overcasting or draw unwanted attention. oops. Just a day's work for some of the toxics.
Awakened blood is extra tasty for some uses, and that might account for a few more "missing" active mages that the corporations and governments don't find soon enough.
As to mentor, and other, spirits: we mostly know about the nice ones, and the not-so-nice ones that slipped up and got caught. How many have a Dagon expy whispering in their ear and cautioning them not to get caught?
Annnnnd, there you go - even more reasons to geek the mage first.
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Oh come on all HobDobson!
Not all mages are 'Burn you with fire! Melt your mind and steal your thoughts, crush you with my spirit, And steal your soul!' Types!
Some use acid, or cold to burn and freeze you :P
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Come to think of it, where there's money to be made there's competition to be removed. Just as there are innumerable "new age" books in circulation here and now, the same will be true for the Sixth World. Some/most will be pure fluff, probably ensuring that many unaware awakened never quite develops the mindset needed to survive as a mage or shaman. Some will have useful little spells that do just enough to satisfy an aspected dabbler with Magic 1. And some will have one or two really cool spells (to the teenage/young adult mind) or enchantments, practically guaranteed to require a tricky amount of overcasting or draw unwanted attention. oops. Just a day's work for some of the toxics.
Awakened blood is extra tasty for some uses, and that might account for a few more "missing" active mages that the corporations and governments don't find soon enough.
As to mentor, and other, spirits: we mostly know about the nice ones, and the not-so-nice ones that slipped up and got caught. How many have a Dagon expy whispering in their ear and cautioning them not to get caught?
Annnnnd, there you go - even more reasons to geek the mage first.
I now have the image of a tiny little printing press in a modly basement somewhere churing out "To find your inner totem" and "Contacting your mentor spirt" and "Communing with nature" and a dozen other titles designed to appeal to untrained new agers with a tiny bit of magic. All for the purpose of getting them possesed by members of the insect hive that's running it.
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i'm talking 100-200 years down the line where everybody and their grandparents grew up with magic being part of the world. At that point in time it would seem rather stupid to be anti-awakened.
The zipper awakened about a hundred years ago from real-world today and the Amish, in general, are still anti-zipper.
Where's the source for the 50/50 Mage/Adept split? That'd be a nice thing to find.
If anyone has a book/source, I'll try to check/confirm.
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i'm talking 100-200 years down the line where everybody and their grandparents grew up with magic being part of the world. At that point in time it would seem rather stupid to be anti-awakened.
So, what, "only" 99,9999999999999% of the Worlds population are pro-zipper? :o
Naturally there will always be small, but globally ( even nationally ) insignificant Groups going against the rest of society. The point still stands though 100 years Down the line, magic and the awakened will be a normal part of society, WHO has been there for as long as anyone can remember and therefore naturally society will reflect that.
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the 50/50 mAges/Adepts must be from SR2
I started playing Shadowrun at the end of 2nd Ed and i got it memorized since the beginning
...ooO( Neo Anarchist Guide ? Sorry, I don't remember where that info is from, it's just too long ago)
HokaHey
Medicineman
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1% global population awakened. Is this an in-universe statistic or a meta one?
If it's in-universe then it wouldn't include SINless, most shadowrunners and likely some of the Megacorps' HTR/Black Ops awakened would it?
And given the number of SINless it would post the global pop of awakened a fair bit.
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I don't remember where that info is from, it's just too long ago
I understand, hehe.
Here's what I've found:
Street Grimoire (1st ed), pg 9, "out-of-character" in suggestions on how to role-play a mage, "...magicians are the smallest minority of the population. One percent of the people in the world can use magic at all. Perhaps 90 percent of those are minor magicians, or never get the proper training, or go crazy trying to deal with what they are. There are maybe three to four million fully capable, trained, competent magicians in the Sixth World, though some studies suggest that the percentage is rising with each new generation." then (still pg 9), "Lots of folks will live their whole lives without ever seeing a magician close up, much less seeing one make magic. They get their ideas about magic from the trid shows and simsense chips, where magicians are either sex-idol adventure stars, comic relief, or sinister villains, all tossing off killer spells without raising a sweat. Ignorance makes people think magicians are super-powerful types who can fry an enemy in the wink of an eye." - Note that 1st edition, this was all inclusive of anyone with a Magic attribute as, pg 14, "There are also some characters who can do some magic, but only in a limited area. These are called adepts." And the section goes on to talk about Magical Adepts, Shamanic Adepts, and Physical Adepts. Nothing in the Adept section (that I saw) on their breakdown within the magic population.
Street Grimoire (2nd ed), pg 10, "out-of-character" in suggestions on how to role-play a mage, changes from 1st edition in bold or struck-through, "...magicians represent the smallest minority of the population. Only 1 percent of the people in the world can use magic at all. A fraction of that percent practice minor magicks, or never get the proper training, or go crazy trying to deal with what they are. By some accounts, there are maybe three to four million fully capable, trained, competent magicians in the Sixth World, though some studies suggest that the percentage is rising with each new generation." then (still pg 10), "Lots of folks will go their whole lives without ever seeing a magician close up, much less seeing one perform magic. What ideas they have about magic they get from the trid shows and simsense chips, where magicians are either sex-idol adventure stars, comic relief, or sinister villains, all tossing off killer spells without raising a sweat. Ignorance makes people think magicians are super-powerful types who can fry an enemy in the wink of an eye."
Awakenings: New Magic In 2057 (2nd ed), pg 9, "in-character" and "Brought to you by the American Association for the Advancement of Thaumaturgy" under "How many magicians are there?" - "Statistics show that about one person in a hundred has enough talent to make active use of magic. Of those individuals, only about one in ten are fully capable magicians, while the others are adepts or untrained individuals. Approximately three to four million fully capable magicians exist today, and studies show their number is rising each year." Where on the same page it defines adepts (and hence why it was underlined) as "magically capable individuals whose abilities are limited compared to those of magicians. Adepts possess a variety of different abilities and ranges of capability." Also, under the "rising each year" entry, it says, "According to the 2055 World Census, the percentage of magically active persons in the world rose .43 percent since the previous year's survey."
I didn't see anything about population of the magically active in 3rd Edition's Magic In The Shadows.
i'm talking 100-200 years down the line where everybody and their grandparents grew up with magic being part of the world. At that point in time it would seem rather stupid to be anti-awakened.
So, what, "only" 99,9999999999999% of the Worlds population are pro-zipper? :o
Naturally there will always be small, but globally ( even nationally ) insignificant Groups going against the rest of society. The point still stands though 100 years Down the line, magic and the awakened will be a normal part of society, WHO has been there for as long as anyone can remember and therefore naturally society will reflect that.
Agreed, mostly. The problem I ran into is that any more-apt examples of large groups (larger than the Amish) of present day people holding ideals/beliefs that to then say seems "rather stupid" would run into breaking some forums rules. But since I got the data posted above; If only 1 in a thousand individuals are fully capable/realized magicians, and 9 in a thousand range from capable adepts to crazy lunatics to people unaware they're magically active...then to try and predict any society's (let alone the world as a whole) attitude towards a group of people (a group of people whose abilities had been demonized for centuries long before the Awakening) over a 100 years is risky at best. In a decade or two a group or individual could whip up a real good brew of anti-awakened hatred that sweeps up the masses in its fervor and inflames a neighborhood, town, city, metroplex, arcology, corporation, or nation, or even the world to wage unending violence against anyone even remotely different from the declared "norm". Or not. The world of Shadowrun is filled with love and life and caring and sharing and fluffy bunnies and more, after all. Well...depending on your GM, I guess. :)
Edit: Wrong pg number for the Awakenings quotes.
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Agreed trying to predict which prejudices may or may not exist in 100 years is pretty close to futile, but that wasn't actually what i was trying to say either. Right now in SR you have some very anti-awakened countries and Groups. Most of those wish for a return to a human World with no awakened and often with no metahumans as well. They generally see magic as either evil based on 5th World religious belief or unnatural based on twisted Scientific and purity ideals. Most of these Groups if not all of them can readily recruit people because they have either themselves grown up in the 5th World or they have heard from their parents or their grandparents how fantastic the World was back then when you didn't have all the weirdos running around, as a matter of fact most people in SR still think of magic and all that follows as weird and alien because they have grown up with stories of how the World was before it turned upside Down and batshit crazy.
A 100 years Down the line noone living will remember the 5th World and the awakened is simply just a part of life, does that mean that you all of a sudden love them, of course not, you will still have your bigots and haters, but their hate and bigotry will based in other Things than "they are weird, i wanna go back to my safe golden age 5th World". Maybe they will hate the awakened because they are envious, maybe they live in magocracies and are part of the downtrodden, but either way they will still see the awakened as a normal and integral part of the World.
In a way it's a bit like the internet today, i see everyday that people under a certain age simply cannot conceive of a World without the internet. Likewise i often see as well that Things like Nazism and Communism has lost their scare values and Again younger people can't really conceive of them being a big issue today, why? Because they have no living link to the World back when those ideologies were considered the big enemy, it's sometimes baffling for me personally because i very much grew up with those living links, so many times there's simply an understanding gap, where those "dangers" are understood in very different ways.
Thats my point, in 2178, the awakened are simply just a fact of life and it would seem rather silly to try to imagine a World without them for most people at least, especially because at that point in time they will likely have an even better understanding of the mana cycles and that the 6th World is still only in its infancy.
But it seems like btw that the books you quoted from 1st and 2nd ed. made my point for me, the 1% is NOT a static number, the numbers of awakened is climbing globally, and its very feasible that the more society come to accept the awakening and the awakened the more of them will be caught by testing and trained to some degree at least.
Good point about the sinless btw Dopship, i guess we have no clue if the 1% is with or without the sinless, my guess would be that it is without them.
Back in 4th ed. btw there were several positive qualities that you could get that sort of represented the big number of awakened without much magic, qualities like "Astral perception", "Knack" and "Latent awakening" i dont recall seeing them in 5th ed. though.
Btw i have a question: How do you Guys see the explanation of why some people are awakened and some are not? What are your pet theories? Because the way i read the books of 5th ed. the genetic explanation has basically been more or less been disproved or at least has failed to produce any evidence whatsoever despite decades of research.
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The "magic gene" is still the most common accepted theory....
But the problem is in the magic/tech divide. Every system we have to map the genetic code is a highly technological one..... which destroys the magical genetic markers.... (or so the theory goes).
Look at it this way. Without using molecules, or mircoscopes, or electronic tech of ANY kind, prove that oxygen exists :P Pretty darn hard huh? Same thing, in reverse.
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Which is why all attempts to clone Awakened people or what people think are the Awakened genes have failed to produce Awakened subjects.
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For the record, there are six (and a half) types of Adept.
1) The Physical Adept, whose category has been expanded to include Social Adepts and others... the key is that all of their magic is internalized, making themselves better, with a few small abilities to go further (such as elemental punching)
2) The Sorcery Adept. They cast spells.
3) The Conjuration Adept. They summon spirits.
4) The Shamanic Adept. They can both cast spells and summon spirits, but only of their Totem's domains.
5) The Astral Adept. They can astrally project.
5 1/2) The Lesser Astral Adept. They can perceive astrally. (Note: These might just be a subset of physical adept)
6) The Alchemist. They do alchemy, Fetishes, and so on.
I'm curious how many of y'all have played one as a PC? I'm certain that the GMs have used several, but, beyond the physad, it's been my experience that the rest are virtually unknown. Anyone have stories of, say, their Shamanic Adept in action? Or have stories of playing a Summoner?
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Under 5th Edition, just the Physical Adept. Previous editions (3rd IIRC) I've had a Shamanic Adept and for a one shot a Sorcery Adept that was mostly buff spells so played like a Physical Adept, just to muddle things. I'm not a huge fan of 5th editions implementation of Aspected mages. Pretty sure nobody is. ;)
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I actually enjoy Aspected Magicians a lot, it just needs a little tweaking (well, the Enchanting Group as a whole needs a fix, while Banishing and Ritual Spellcasting could use some love of their own).
And Wakshaani, I know you're a writer and all, but you're sort of explicitly disagreeing with canon/mechanics right now (at least for 5th Edition). There's Adepts, Mystic Adepts, Aspected Magicians and Magicians. And no method for adepts to Astrally Project. Not to mention any adept can purchase Astral Perception, and all of those 'Spell Group adepts' start with Astral Projection as well.
I've played an Aspected Conjurer before; Spook, a Bosnian ex-pat with the Guardian Angel mentor spirit. Very fun, very useful to the group.
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For the record, there are six (and a half) types of Adept.
plus Elemental Adept (similar to Shamanic Adept...the hermetic equivalent).
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For the record, there are six (and a half) types of Adept.
4) The Shamanic Adept. They can both cast spells and summon spirits, but only of their Totem's domains.
This is one I don't know about. Are you talking about the standard shaman build, a shamanic mysad with spirit mentor, or something else (that I have apparently missed)? ???
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For the record, there are six (and a half) types of Adept.
4) The Shamanic Adept. They can both cast spells and summon spirits, but only of their Totem's domains.
This is one I don't know about. Are you talking about the standard shaman build, a shamanic mysad with spirit mentor, or something else (that I have apparently missed)? ??? [size=78%] [/size]
Non 5th edition. If I understand Wakshaani's post it was to make sure everyone knows that in the quotes I quoted about magic using populations that when it said "adepts" it doesn't mean what it means in 5th edition and that it covers all those types of magically active folks who were labeled "adepts" of one kind or another. If that's not what Wakshaani meant, then obviously i'm confuse'd. :)
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For the record, there are six (and a half) types of Adept.
1) The Physical Adept, whose category has been expanded to include Social Adepts and others... the key is that all of their magic is internalized, making themselves better, with a few small abilities to go further (such as elemental punching)
2) The Sorcery Adept. They cast spells.
3) The Conjuration Adept. They summon spirits.
4) The Shamanic Adept. They can both cast spells and summon spirits, but only of their Totem's domains.
5) The Astral Adept. They can astrally project.
5 1/2) The Lesser Astral Adept. They can perceive astrally. (Note: These might just be a subset of physical adept)
6) The Alchemist. They do alchemy, Fetishes, and so on.
I'm curious how many of y'all have played one as a PC? I'm certain that the GMs have used several, but, beyond the physad, it's been my experience that the rest are virtually unknown. Anyone have stories of, say, their Shamanic Adept in action? Or have stories of playing a Summoner?
Wakshaani, Chummer,Your Mind is locked in the 80's or 90's
Schamanistic Adepts are from 2nd or 3rd Ed Shadowrun.
and You don't use the Term Totem anymore (at least not in the last 2 Editions ...)
I'm startled that one of the main Freelancers doesn't know about the rules or which chars You can play ....(that's not good , really ! )
and NO Adept can project astrally (IIRC there was once one very remote Ghoul variant from the Caribians who (if Adept) could Project astrally but that must be from 2nd or 3rd Ed.I haven't heard or read from this kind of Ghoul in the last 2 Editions !)
so either you're totally in the wrong edition...
this would be OK If you'd be new in Shadowrun or came back from former Editions, but its not good for a Freelancer....
with an appalled Dance
Medicineman
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I actually enjoy Aspected Magicians a lot, it just needs a little tweaking (well, the Enchanting Group as a whole needs a fix, while Banishing and Ritual Spellcasting could use some love of their own).
And Wakshaani, I know you're a writer and all, but you're sort of explicitly disagreeing with canon/mechanics right now (at least for 5th Edition). There's Adepts, Mystic Adepts, Aspected Magicians and Magicians. And no method for adepts to Astrally Project. Not to mention any adept can purchase Astral Perception, and all of those 'Spell Group adepts' start with Astral Projection as well.
I haven't dug into the magic book(s) for 5th yet, so I'm actually not sure what all's out there just yet. (D'oh!) ... those are the traditional ones, and I'd think that if any aren't *currently* around, that they'd be around *eventually*. Maybe not, but, again, I'd imagine so.
The six (and a half) I mentioned would all fall under either Adept or Aspected Magician ... which I tend to group together anyway, with Adept being a *type* of Aspected Magician. That's not 100% in alignment with current magical theory I don't think, but it's how I have 'em slotted in my mental Rolodex.
Magicians (Spells, spirits, astral, alchemy)
Mystic Adepts (Spells, spirits, Adept powers, alchemy)
Aspected Magician (Spells *or* spirits *or astral *or* adept powers *or* Totem bonded *or* alchemy)
So, three sets, each with different subsets. (And Adepts have sub-subsets!)
Again, just my personal Rolodex there. :)
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For the record, there are six (and a half) types of Adept.
4) The Shamanic Adept. They can both cast spells and summon spirits, but only of their Totem's domains.
This is one I don't know about. Are you talking about the standard shaman build, a shamanic mysad with spirit mentor, or something else (that I have apparently missed)? ???
From the sound of it, it's not around in 5th at this time. Sadface.
The Shamanic Adept was a Shaman who could both cast spells and summon spirits, BUT, only those aligned with his Totem.
So, a Bear Shaman could cast healing spells and summon Earth elementals*, while a Raven shaman could cast Manipulation spells and Spirits of Man*.
Seems that they're not around in this edition, so, I need to slot up my magical tomes for a perusal, it would seem. Sad times.
* Using the 5th ed Totems here, not the older ones. Previous editions had specific spirits per Totem that got a bonus, and those are the ones a Shamantic caster could call up.
And I still use "Totem" as "Mentor" is a copout to let Hermetics off the hook. :D
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>>> I haven't dug into the magic book(s) for 5th yet, so I'm actually not sure what all's out there just yet. (D'oh!) ...
Oh YES, a Big D'oh *raised Eyebrow stare*
I'll gladly tell you whats around (even if it makes me sad that I have to tell/write You that...:( )
since SR4 you only have full Mages ( 20+ different Traditions,Hermetic,shamanistic, Wujen, Chaos,Voodo,Nordic,Christian, etc )
these are the ONLY one that can project astrally !
Aspected mages (either sorcery aspected, they can only fling spells or do Rituals, or conjuring aspected which can only summon ,bind,dispell . No astral projection)
you have Mystic/Magical Adepts that can use mageskills (Conjuring and Summoning ) and have Adepts powers but can NOT project astrally and Physical Adepts (that can't project either) formerly known as Ki Adepts
these 4 archetypes are the only awakened types there are
All Awakend can have a Mentor (Formerly known as Totems ;) but a Mentor is more than just a Totem. Bear is a Totem,the Sea or the Adversary are Mentors ).
There is no Domain, no Domain Spirits (like Hearthspirits)
Maybe You should check the UMT (Universal Magical Theory) in a Shadowiki !!
There are NO more shamanistic Adepts.
with a shamanistic Dance
Medicineman
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Oh, I know the Universal Theory. I just don't like it. :)
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Oh, I know the Universal Theory. I just don't like it. :)
I'm so with you on this!
The Universal Magic Theory took away a lot of the uniqueness and distinction of Shaman vs Mage. Shamans no longer seem to identify so closely with their Totem, as evidenced by the loss of the Shamanic Mask.
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>>> The Universal Magic Theory took away a lot of the uniqueness and distinction of Shaman vs Mage.
only ruleswise
Its the darn job of the Player to make & play his Char unique and memorable and not some darn Rules.
The UMT otoh is so easy to use and to learn , now all the Rules apply to all mages alike.
No more Only Summoning for You and Only Binding but without summoning for You, Domains for You and No Domains for You, etc Etc.
no more different rules for Wujen and for Christians and Mages and Schamans.....
And Spiritmask can still be used as a Fluff !
He who dances with a Spiritmask
Medicineman
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I hear you MM,
But its only us grandpa players that remember the original fluff that made shamans and mages unique.
In an effort of simplify the rules for easier play, a lot of the flavour is getting left by the wayside. And with an ever increasing and vocal call for "More Crunch, Less Fluff", these flavor points are being abandoned.
Mark my words. SR6 will only have 'Awakened' as an archtype, with 'shaman', 'mage', 'adept' being akin to traditions....
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I hear you MM,
But its only us grandpa players that remember the original fluff that made shamans and mages unique.
In an effort of simplify the rules for easier play, a lot of the flavour is getting left by the wayside. And with an ever increasing and vocal call for "More Crunch, Less Fluff", these flavor points are being abandoned.
Mark my words. SR6 will only have 'Awakened' as an archtype, with 'shaman', 'mage', 'adept' being akin to traditions....
I seriously don't have a problem with that. Maybe even toss TMs in there too. It will also allow them to be able to be balanced easier as well, or hopefully make their rules more consistent. I'm working on an SR5 chargenerator and just hit adept powers and they're mind numbingly in consistent with the spells and complex forms they I'm going to have to write a lot of specific one use code to handle all their cases, which I find very annoying. I realize that a pen and paper game is not a video game, so can get away with some of this, BUT I do think consistency is more important than powers that do things completely differently from other powers.
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I hear you MM,
But its only us grandpa players that remember the original fluff that made shamans and mages unique.
In an effort of simplify the rules for easier play, a lot of the flavour is getting left by the wayside. And with an ever increasing and vocal call for "More Crunch, Less Fluff", these flavor points are being abandoned.
This sums up my feelings exactly. New players coming to Shadowrun without the benefit of the previous 4 editions won't know about the wealth of flavour that is being ignored. In the ongoing battle to find the "best" character the uniqueness of magic is being lost.
Under the current rules its quite acceptable for an awakened character to follow the Shamanic tradition but have no Totem. It's unlikely because the Mentor Spirit PQ is so cheap, but rules-wise there's nothing preventing it. A new player may not realise that Shamans traditionally required Totems to follow.
Dang it, I feel old. Bring back the 2050s.
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Than it's our Job as Oldschoolplayers to set up an example and play awakened Unique and Memorable.
anyway its more a Fluff or Style question to make a distinction between a shaman and Hermetic ...even between 2 Hermetics
Our Hobby is not called Roleplaying without a reason ;)
with a memorable Dance
Medicineman
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Just found this thread and I kind of like the break down of about 0.25% of the population being functional awakened (mage, adept, etc). Which makes them only slightly less rare than lawyers (0.36% in 2016 USA) - I got slated for saying this in some other thread, but it seems about right.
This does mean, however, that each corp in a city would be able to have several hundred or so awakend on their payroll if they could afford it, and so wished. Of course, this would probably be overkill, but it kind of makes a mockery of the "rare" mage - they're just not.
In another thread, a GM asked what kind of jobs awakened might do, and the list was endless - everything from astral travel agent to movie special effects, I personally think every VIP with any secrets to keep would have their own counterspelling bodyguard to prevent mind magic spying and the like. In short, I think magic in the 6th world is everywhere.
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mages (full mages with agood MAG rating) ARE Rare ! but not for the Megacorps
THAT is part of the Dystopia.
And ImO really good Deckers (Skills 7 + ) with a really good Deck ( 1/2 Mio ¥ up) are also just as rare outside the Corps !
with a rare Dance
Medicineman
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I'm sure someone mentioned once that in an earlier edition there was an adept power that let them astrally project it was just at a greatly reduced time something like 1 minute per magic point.
I agree that the percentage values argue against rare mage but I can still see the general population not really knowing what they're capable of. Its the difference between there are firms of lawyer in my town and I know a laywer. Sure finding one if you need too may be pretty easy especially if your working for a major corp who'd have them on staff but most people may never actually meet one and even fewer see them using their magic on a regular basis. However a lot of people would have seen Gandulf in lord or the rings or the upcoming world of warcraft movie or the upcoming dr strange movie or insert other movie/tv show/book about magicians wielding vast powers and occaasionally swords and other weapons.
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The way I see it, there are four factors that makes the classic runner mage fairly unusual:
1) scope of magic. As said above, some of the 1% may not have achieved noticeable abilities, some are physical adepts, some are aspected.
2) power of magic. I tend to assume that amongst those 1% awakened, distribution of base magic is similar to any other attribute. In other words, most awakened have a magic of about 3 if they haven't put in a lot of effort to improve it. (Granted that most would have had good incentive to do so)
3) Traditions and mentor spirits. Some people may be flexible in what tradition they follow, or what totem they relate to .... but some people are strongly pulled in a specific way, and more have only limited flexibility. Some will never find instructions in a tradition that is meaningful to them (part of why the 1% are not all active), some will follow a tradition or mentor spirit that doesn't work so well in a corporate setting, or in some cases with people in general.
4) General competence as a mage. There will be some with low willpower, or called to shamanic magic but with low charisma. Or their personality makes them poor at studying and learning certain skills, including magical ones (a hermetic mage with severe dyslexia may learn skills and spells more slowly).
Unfortunately in first edition, there was one sort of magical character in the core rules: magic 6, access to all magic skills.(although not as powerful as current magicians), and of course most players would set skills and attributes to maximize their magical effectiveness. So it set as the norm the most extraordinary case.
I think where the lawyer comparison doesn't work is that tbere are many people who could be lawyers, and only a select portion of them are allowed to become lawyers, so that those who do are generally fairly talented in that regard, and reasonably likely to stay as lawyers. It might be better to look at the tallest 1% of the population and look at how good they are at basketball, or something like that.
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I find the lawyer agrument a little flawed.... Just because I don't think the number of lawyers is that low.
It may be that's the number of lawyers with their name on a door, but ALL practicing lawyers? No. Much too low.
I know corporations that have TEAMS of private lawyers numbering into the many dozens. (Bechtel, KBR, Chemco, Rio Tinto, Royal Dutch )
Someone compared the number of awakened once to the number of doctors in the US, I find that is probably closer.
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The number of lawyers and doctors are close to the same, Reaver. Per million, comes out to between 2,000-3,500. Haven't looked at the exact numbers recently, though. It's a pretty specialized job, all in all.
Keep in mind, that's just the lawyers, not everyone in a legal profession. Just like the doctor comparison is just to doctors, not everyone in the medical field.
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I find the lawyer agrument a little flawed.... Just because I don't think the number of lawyers is that low.
It may be that's the number of lawyers with their name on a door, but ALL practicing lawyers? No. Much too low.
I know corporations that have TEAMS of private lawyers numbering into the many dozens. (Bechtel, KBR, Chemco, Rio Tinto, Royal Dutch )
Someone compared the number of awakened once to the number of doctors in the US, I find that is probably closer.
U.S. Lawyers (http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/market_research/national-lawyer-population-by-state-2016.authcheckdam.pdf) divided by U.S. Population (http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/) = 0.4%
U.S. Doctors (http://www.statista.com/topics/1244/physicians/) divided by U.S. Population (http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/) = 0.3%
Number of magic-capable metahumans divided by 2050's population = 1.0% (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=24101.msg449951#msg449951)
Number of trained full-magician-capable metahumans divided by 2050's population = 0.1% (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=24101.msg449951#msg449951)
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Hmmm, interesting.
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U.S. Lawyers (http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/market_research/national-lawyer-population-by-state-2016.authcheckdam.pdf) divided by U.S. Population (http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/) = 0.4%
U.S. Doctors (http://www.statista.com/topics/1244/physicians/) divided by U.S. Population (http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/) = 0.3%
Number of magic-capable metahumans divided by 2050's population = 1.0% (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=24101.msg449951#msg449951)
Number of trained full-magician-capable metahumans divided by 2050's population = 0.1% (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=24101.msg449951#msg449951)
By 2075 I'd expect the number to be up in the doctor/lawyer range -- they've been aggressively searching out talented kids since at least the fifties, magical education has gotten much better, more traditions are understood, etc. Although maybe the biggest increase is in identifying and making use of lesser talents.
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By 2075 I'd expect the number to be up in the doctor/lawyer range
Awakenings: New Magic In 2057 (2nd ed), ...about one person in a hundred has enough talent to make active use of magic. Of those individuals, only about one in ten are fully capable magicians...Approximately three to four million fully capable magicians exist today... under the "rising each year" entry, it says, "According to the 2055 World Census, the percentage of magically active persons in the world rose .43 percent since the previous year's survey."
So ~ 1 in a 100 are magically capable. ~ 1 in 1000 are fully capable magicians. There are 3.5 million (average of 3 to 4) fully capable magicians. Then the population of the world in 2057 (and in 2050 since the numbers don't change) is ~ 3.5 billion.
Then.
If 1.0% rose by 0.43%, then 1.0% + (1.0% * 0.43%) = 1.0043% of the population is magically active the next year.
Extrapolating: 1.0% in 2055, 0.43% growth each year (assuming held steady/continued-to-grow-on-average) until 2075: 1.08961% of the population is magically capable in 2075 (1.01% to round up).
So based on the data given in canon, while the growth rate of the magically active is growing (at least between 2050 to 2057), it is still about 1/4 the percentage of lawyers in 2016. And technically that 1.01% is a hard cap. It's not fully capable magicians...that's ~10% of the 1.01%, the 1.01% is all metahumans with a Magic attribute (since the 2055 World Census is "percentage of magically active persons in the world rose .43 percent ", not "magically trained full magicians"). So the best society (i.e. corps, education, knowledge of traditions, etc.) can do is max out at the 1.01%; optimize 100% of all magically capable people...the totality of which is still around 1.01% of the population.
But since there hasn't been much data since those books, nothing wrong with quadrupling the population of magically active in one's own game. Or quartering it. Maybe the passing of Halley's Comet boosted the rate, or the closing off of the astral bridge slowed the growth rate...until canon states something else.../shrug.
tl;dr: Expectations are often dashed upon the rocky shores of data examined but imagination goes where it wills.
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Full Magician also doesn't factor in Aspected Magicians or Adepts, which are still functional. This is why .25% is probably a bit more accurate, or .2% is if the 50/50 split between mages and adepts is valid.
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Full Magician also doesn't factor in Aspected Magicians or Adepts, which are still functional. This is why .25% is probably a bit more accurate, or .2% is if the 50/50 split between mages and adepts is valid.
Sounds reasonable to me :)
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There's also the question for me of whether that increasing number mentioned is an increase in the numbers of magically capable people or the numbers of fully trained/actively capable magicians or part thereof. That is 2050 magic potential = 1%, 2070 magic potential = 3% vs 2050 magic potential = 1%/trained = 0.01%, 2070 magic potential = 1%/trained = 0.03%. If you see what I mean the percentage of magically capable individuals hasn't increased but the amount inside that who are found and tained has.
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Well if you have countries where the number of awakened in the general population goes as high as 3-4% ( which we have, the different awakened nationas mostly ), then that pretty much shows that the 1,0 % or 1,01 or whatever it is in 2075 is not a hard cap, so maybe the number of potentially magically capable people in the population hasn't gone up, but the 1% is far from the actual number of magically capable people in the population. But for game purposes that number will stay pretty much the same globally speaking.
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I thought that was 1% globably so even if country A has 4% and country B 0% they're just averaged out over the worldwide population so it overall works out to 1%
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Yes, but if it can actually go up to 4% in some countries, then that pretty much shows that it can "potentially" go that high anywhere. There are of course many reasons why it doesn't in some Places and as i said for game purposes, they will stick with the ca. 1% for the foreseeable future. It seems very much like that the go to explanation for why some Places have higher than average and some have lower than average is predominantly cultural in every case so far.
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Can anyone give a source for the higher that 1% magically capable populations in various countries?
All I could find so far was;
Asamando "Nearly thirty percent of the citizens are magicians from various traditions, but because they are also ghouls..." Street Grimoire (5th edition, pg 13).
and
Aztlan "I read somewhere that maybe 1 percent of the population has any magical "talent" at all. Because Aztechnology goes to such great lengths to hire magically adept security personnel, the incidence of magic use in the ACS [Aztechnologyc Corporate Security] is closer to 2 percent. (This figure is somewhere between a conservative estimate and a wild-hooped guess.)" posted by Argent. Aztlan (2nd edition, pg 74).
I could not find in the Aztlan sourcebook anything saying that 2% of the population of Aztlan was magically active/capable.
Well if you have countries where the number of awakened in the general population goes as high as 3-4% ( which we have, the different awakened nationas mostly ), then that pretty much shows that the 1,0 % or 1,01 or whatever it is in 2075 is not a hard cap, so maybe the number of potentially magically capable people in the population hasn't gone up, but the 1% is far from the actual number of magically capable people in the population. But for game purposes that number will stay pretty much the same globally speaking.
It's a hard cap within the statement "1% of the world population is magically capable." The best that society (the general world's societies together) can do is maximize to that hard cap. If it is maximized past 1% then the world population of magically capable people is no longer 1% (the original figure is then found to be false). But if you have sources for the "as high as 3-4%" claim, and it can be determined that within those countries those high numbers fit within a global norm (and are not due to immigration of awakened populations, mana spikes, forced expression (like getting infected with HMHVV), or other non-'natural' expressions of magic capability), then that definitely would be evidence that the 1% figure is wrong.
But until that can be examined then, within canon, Senko is probably correct in saying "it overall works out to 1%" and that anywhere where the percentages are higher it is likely due to recruitment (as in the ACS), immigration (NAN nations attracting Shaman traditions, Asamando attracting ghouls), or other factors (Asamando infecting local populations).
There's also the question for me of whether that increasing number mentioned is an increase in the numbers of magically capable people or the numbers of fully trained/actively capable magicians or part thereof. That is 2050 magic potential = 1%, 2070 magic potential = 3% vs 2050 magic potential = 1%/trained = 0.01%, 2070 magic potential = 1%/trained = 0.03%. If you see what I mean the percentage of magically capable individuals hasn't increased but the amount inside that who are found and tained has.
Totally agree. The quote is ""According to the 2055 World Census, the percentage of magically active persons in the world rose .43 percent..." so on the surface, it says nothing about trained and seems to only be talking about "magically active." Plus, how reliable is the 2055 World Census? It's my understanding that the "deeper" into the 6th World we go, mana levels increase. So I would assume (but still an assumption on my part) that the number of magically capable people is and will be rising each year and, as metahumanity gets better at understanding it, the numbers of "trained" magically capable people will also rise within the global magically capable population. (Side note: It's the rising mana levels that I've used as the rationalization on why all the various Adepts from 1st/2nd edition got "smeared out" into just Full Magicians, Aspected, Mystic Adepts, and Adepts, and that by the year 3000 or so, all metahumans will have at least a 1 Magic Attribute.) :)
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Note on the mana cycles: each cycle takes approximately 5600 years to complete.
We entered into the 6th world on 2011, so we are only 60 years into 5600 cycle, and assuming a sine wave curve, 2740 years from a mana peak.....
So don't expect that 1% figure to be changing any time soon.
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Note on the mana cycles: each cycle takes approximately 5600 years to complete.
Closer to 5125 years (http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Humans_and_the_Cycle_of_Magic)
and assuming a sine wave curve
Yeah, that's what I assume too, but mana spikes (Halley's Comet, the mini-Awakening of around 1500s Europe (I forget the specifics there), etc.) throw wrenches into it. But still, with a sine wave...the slope of the curve (the rate of change) is highest at the beginnings and endings.
So don't expect that 1% figure to be changing any time soon.
With that give 0.43 percent rate of growth given from the Awakenings, assuming it's static (though recognizing if it's a sine wave it would aproach 0% growth at the apex of the cycle) and assuming it's 1% in 2055, then...
2055 AD: 1% population magically active
2100 AD: 1.2%
2200 AD: 1.8%
2300 AD: 2.9%
2400 AD: 4.4%
2500 AD: 6.7%
2600 AD: 10.4%
2700 AD: 15.9%
2800 AD: 24.5%
2900 AD: 37.6%
3000 AD: 57.7%
3100 AD: 88.6%
3174 AD: ~100%
...Again, that's assuming constant growth, instead of tapering off via a true sine wave then with
by the year 3000 or so, all metahumans will have at least a 1 Magic Attribute.) :)
I'm definitely not expecting the 1% figure to change (much) any time soon ;)
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>>>> I'm definitely not expecting the 1% figure to change (much) any time soon ;)
not if SR6 plays in 2188
I never read that different Countries have different ratios of Awakened but I'm totally going to adapt that Idea .
(especially the Tirs and Pomorya will have a higher Rate of awakened and the Troll Republic of Black Forrest in the ADL)
Thanks :)
HougH!
Medicineman
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Note on the mana cycles: each cycle takes approximately 5600 years to complete.
Closer to 5125 years (http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Humans_and_the_Cycle_of_Magic)
and assuming a sine wave curve
Yeah, that's what I assume too, but mana spikes (Halley's Comet, the mini-Awakening of around 1500s Europe (I forget the specifics there), etc.) throw wrenches into it. But still, with a sine wave...the slope of the curve (the rate of change) is highest at the beginnings and endings.
So don't expect that 1% figure to be changing any time soon.
With that give 0.43 percent rate of growth given from the Awakenings, assuming it's static (though recognizing if it's a sine wave it would aproach 0% growth at the apex of the cycle) and assuming it's 1% in 2055, then...
2055 AD: 1% population magically active
2100 AD: 1.2%
2200 AD: 1.8%
2300 AD: 2.9%
2400 AD: 4.4%
2500 AD: 6.7%
2600 AD: 10.4%
2700 AD: 15.9%
2800 AD: 24.5%
2900 AD: 37.6%
3000 AD: 57.7%
3100 AD: 88.6%
3174 AD: ~100%
...Again, that's assuming constant growth, instead of tapering off via a true sine wave then with
by the year 3000 or so, all metahumans will have at least a 1 Magic Attribute.) :)
I'm definitely not expecting the 1% figure to change (much) any time soon ;)
Hmmm I'm not so sure awakened population would ever reach 100% even when Earthdawn was at the height of its power (horror invasion) and part of a combined universe there wasn't 100% awakening. Personally I'd think it more likely as you get a higher and higher background count you'd get more magically dependant races lamia's, naga's, changelings, harpies, etc and more mystic adepts (or some combination of adept/mage/technomancer) and fewer aspected magicians but you'd never be likely to see even 10% global awakened population.
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I think i saw a number once putting the number of adepts in Eartdawn at 10%, i'll try to hunt Down the source. Also i'll try to hunt Down the sources for SR, might take a while since there's a lot of books to look through. One book i'm sure of though is the unfortunately finished but never officially published Shadows of Latin America. In that book Amazonia and Paraguay are put at the 3-4%, Aztlan around the 2% if i recall correctly and i think Ecuador might have been mentioned as having a slightly higher than average number of awakened. I'll go back an check the other books i can think of that have the information.
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Keep in mind Amazonia has a very high percentage of Shifters, AND by Amazonia law, they are full citizens, which would skew their numbers. (Remember, Shifters are not metahumans, but awakened animals)
The book WAR! Touches on this a fair bit when talking about troops and tactics throughout the book.
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Eh, that probably doesn't skew the numbers too much, Reaver. While they have a lot of shifters, the worldwide population of shifters isn't above 250,000 (as of Run Faster). Assuming every single Shapeshifter in the world lived there, that'd be 1 in 1,000 (population of 250,000,000 as per Sixth World Almanac). And not all of them are fully Awakened past their natural Magic Attribute.
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Hmmm I'm not so sure awakened population would ever reach 100% even when Earthdawn was at the height of its power (horror invasion) and part of a combined universe there wasn't 100% awakening. Personally I'd think it more likely as you get a higher and higher background count you'd get more magically dependant races lamia's, naga's, changelings, harpies, etc and more mystic adepts (or some combination of adept/mage/technomancer) and fewer aspected magicians but you'd never be likely to see even 10% global awakened population.
My bad, for some reason in my head I translated a bunch of the in game flavor text of Earthdawn, the "magic is in everything" bit, as everything is technically awakened/the equivalent of having a positive non-zero Magic Attribute (and the majority still not being "trained" in magic's uses).
Here's some of the parts that make me interpret Earthdawn as the equivalent everyone having a Magic attribute and, with training, can then "use" magic:
* OCC "The world of Earthdawn is filled with magic. The most talented characters, including yours, are initiated in the use of magic. Such characters are called Adepts. Some Adepts train to cast spells, some train to use swords or other weapons, others train to work with animals. The form of magical training chosen by your character is his or her Discipline. This training focuses the magical energies of your character into special abilities called Talents." Earthdawn core book (1st ed, pg 36)
* OOC "[Magic] is the source of the characters' abilities... Magic is a part of everyday life in Earthdawn. It is used to light villages and towns at night..." ibid pg 136
* IC "...magic is such a fundamental part of our daily existence that it pervades our every thought and action." ibid pg 139
* IC "Our world is alive with magical energy, which is ordered into patterns...Any being that wants to use magical energy to cast spells or use talents and other magical abilities must form a tiny part of the magical energy of the world into a pattern. " ibid pg 140
* IC "The act of Naming is important in our world because it focuses the world's magical forces into a True Pattern. From that moment on the Named person, place, or thing is important in the world. Naming only occurs in the conjunction with the interaction of magic and a person, place, or thing. Magic can be introduced deliberately, through a talent, spell, ritual (suh as a Weaponsmith's Forge Weapon talent, or a child's coming-of-age Naming ritual..." ibid 140.
Since Earthdawn (at least 1st ed) doesn't have a Magic Attribute equivalent to Shadowrun and that essentially with proper training anyone can manipulate magic (according to the training) then my assumption would be that nearly 100% are magically capable but, as you say Senko & Rosa, only 10% reach the heroic Adept levels (though I didn't find a source to that 10% figure, but, interestingly, would match Shadowrun's 10:1 ratio of magically capable to magically trained full magicians).
I think i saw a number once putting the number of adepts in Eartdawn at 10%, i'll try to hunt Down the source. Also i'll try to hunt Down the sources for SR, might take a while since there's a lot of books to look through. One book i'm sure of though is the unfortunately finished but never officially published Shadows of Latin America. In that book Amazonia and Paraguay are put at the 3-4%, Aztlan around the 2% if i recall correctly and i think Ecuador might have been mentioned as having a slightly higher than average number of awakened. I'll go back an check the other books i can think of that have the information.
That'd be awesome for the sources, Rosa, thank you :). I did a search of the Shadows of Latin America book, just searched the document on the following (without the quotes): "2%", "3%", "4%", "2 percent", "3 percent", "4 percent", "two percent", "three percent", "four percent", "double", "triple", "three times", and "four times".
The only thing that came up was about the Aztlan priesthood and that the runner Deprogrammer comments "the percentage of magically active [priests of the Path of the Sun] sits at 24 percent and is rising; much higher than in other sectors or in other religious organizations." (Shadows of Latin America v. 1.2, pg 60).
And I didn't seen anything when I quickly scanned the Paraguay section.
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I'll see if i can find the actual quote.
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Oops wrong country, it was a P country though. "In the the Peruvian jungle the incidence of metatype non-human births is 4,85 times higher than the World average........Awakened births are estimated to be 3 times higher than average...." ( Shadows of Latin America p. 118 ).
So thats the first source quote, i'll continue to hunt for the others.
And for Aztlan....."It's not just the priesthood. The percentage of magically-active population in Aztlan is higher than the World average and amongs the highest concentrations on the Globe" ( SoLA p. 61 ). No actual number though :-\
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Nice! Thank's Rosa. I didn't search on "3 times" and there it is. The final sentence to Smiling Bandit's comment is now what we're hanging on, "Currently studies are being conducted to verify if the superior mana levels in the Amazonian jungle is related to these birth trends." (SoLA v 1.2, pg 118).
And yeah, too bad Mad Libbie doesn't give numbers (or other runners comment to clarify).
Great catches, thanks again! :)
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I'll see if i can find the actual quote.
Remember the Earthdawn setting was on the tail end of the curve, so its not the peak of magical population.
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Yes it's about 200-300 years after the mana peak, though in the earthdawn setting they actually make a point out of the fact that the mana levels haven't fallen as much as they thought they would, rather they fell for a while and then evened out.