Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Scottys72 on <07-12-16/1245:50>
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So I first off would like to apologize because I am REALLY new to 5e. I played Shadowrun back in the days and I loved it. The more I read about the game the more excited I get to play, but the game is very daunting. So our group needed a decker and I made one and I think he was built well, but the more I read about technomancers the more I thought of a cool backstory for him. Basically he was sold off to a AA at a young age so they could experiment on him. So not the best childhood, constantly being prodded and probed and drugged as to make sure he couldn’t escape or worse… The book makes it sound as though Technomancers are very much a mystery and the “unknown”. I have a lot more thought up for the backstory, on how he escapes and becomes a shadowrunner, but that’s the very basic idea.
So now I get into my real questions. How to create one. I read this nice write up (https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/3aq8zb/technomancer_hacks_aka_how_to_play_a_technomancer/) and it answered a lot of questions, but it also raised a lot of questions. So here is what I have so far (and please give me your feedback)! I am hoping to create the mysterious hacker who thinks about the door, or the gun and the shit happens!
A – Stats
B- Magic
C- Skills
D- Race
E- $$
A -
Stats:
Base Attribute Karma Total
Logic 1 5 6
Willpower 1 4 5
Intuition 1 4 5
Charisma 1 4 5
Body 1 4 5
Agility 1 3 4
Reaction 1 10 2
Strength 1 10 2
In the guide that I mentioned above the author mentioned bumping up his strength more for armor purposes. What would that be? I have read about if you want to “combine” armor, but if I’m wearing a lined coat why would I need a 3 or higher strength?
C –
Skills:
Groups:
Athletics 1
Stealth 1
Compiling 6
Registering 6
Hacking 6
Software 6
Perception 2
Firearms 2
Am I missing anything or would you suggest anything different?
D-
Race:
Edge 2 1 3
Resonance 4 2 6
Essence 6 6
Human 3 3
E-
Cash
I have not gotten this far but I would use the remaining 5 Karma (out of 25 (20 being used for stats)) for cash. So I should have 16k.
I know I need at least one fake SIN and a few licenses, a pistol and a lines coat but what should I get? Do I need a comm link since I am a technomancer?
Random question: So the 4 complex forms I was thinking of are:
Puppeteer
TranscendentGrid
Resonance Spike
Editor
Any suggestions?
Also how many spirits can you have summoned at once? I have read the decking section and I really did not see any mention of this.
Qualities: The qualities I am think of are:
Quick Healer
Analytical Mind
Code Slinger
Natural Hardening
I know I have a few to many, so what would you drop? Also based on the limited info that I listed on my background what negative qualities would you take?
I am 100% open to new ideas and I would love some feedback
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In the guide that I mentioned above the author mentioned bumping up his strength more for armor purposes. What would that be? I have read about if you want to “combine” armor, but if I’m wearing a lined coat why would I need a 3 or higher strength?
If you want to add an helmet or an armored suit, you are limited to twice your strength as a bonus. So more strength allows for more armour. Two should be enough I think.
Am I missing anything or would you suggest anything different?
You need the Computer skill (Edit files, erase matrix signature, format & reboot device, trace icon and above all, Matrix Perception & Search) as well as Electronic Warfare (mainly for Hide, but there are other uses).
I know I need at least one fake SIN and a few licenses, a pistol and a lines coat but what should I get?
Don't forget ammo.
I like contacts with some vision enhancements, you can take earbuds with the same thing.
Don't forget to pay for a lifestyle too.
Do I need a comm link since I am a technomancer?
You don't need it as much as you can't do without ^^
If you don't have a 'link, it is very easy to know that you are a TM. And given what you said about the BG of the character, not being flagged as such would be a high priority I think.
Don't forget the trodes to go with it, gives plausibility to your presence in VR.
Any suggestions?
Editor is not that useful (depends on the GM, some will allow edition of protected files, some won't).
Resonance Spike is not bad, but TranscendantGrid is not that good (hoping from one grid to another is easy, and you're not vulnerable from an attack on all grids).
One CF you want is Resonance Veil: with it activated on a compiled sprite, it won't gain OS over time.
Cleaner is interesting too, it removes OS, so that's good too. You need to thread it multiple times given the Fade, so it can be better to just reboot. But in some cases, you want to keep your marks so you can't reboot. So not a "priority one" CF, but still a useful one.
There are more in Data Trails but none that good to begin with (I like Misread Marks myself but it's not that useful and a bit expensive).
Also how many spirits can you have summoned at once? I have read the decking section and I really did not see any mention of this.
Only one compiled at a time, up to your logic in registered ones.
Quick Healer
Analytical Mind
Code Slinger
Natural Hardening
As far as qualities go, Focused Concentration 1 is probably the only one really interesting, since it allows you to sustain your Resonance Veil on your sprite without the -2d.
Quick Healer is nice, but cheap enough that you can take it quickly once the game has started, which allows you to use your karma elsewhere at creation.
Code Slinger is not that good: it costs a lot for little gain (only improves by 2d a single action).
Same thing for Natural Hardening. You would be better of taking Exceptional Attribute (Willpower).
And Analytical Mind costs less than Code Slinger but is a lot more restrictive too so might not be a good choice.
I know I have a few to many, so what would you drop? Also based on the limited info that I listed on my background what negative qualities would you take?
In Debt for a few points can be nice, it helps at the beginning and is not that hard to pay back.
You can take a code block too (on data bomb for example, but I find this a bit "cheap").
If you want more, you can read this guide too: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20066.0
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First off thank you for the response! It really helps as this game and the matrix can be challenging to understand.
As far as skills would you add Computer and electronic warfare and lower my other skills? Or are any of my skills “non-essential”?
In regards to the commlink, you mentioned trodes? What are they?
Qualities – Great info. I will definitely take focused concentration 1. What other positive qualities would you take? Also lets say I only took FC1 and I took a few negative qualities, would I have extra Karma (outside the 25) to spend during creation?
Again thank you. This is great!
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Trodes can be found p439 of SR5. It allows someone to go to VR without a datajack.
One of the problems of a TM is that there are 9 skills (or 8 since Decompile is just bad) si I'm afraid that in what you put, there are no useless skills... Karma will help a bit, but you will have to be careful at the beginning.
For positive qualities, apart from Focused Concentration and Exceptional Attribute (Willpower) (Going to 7 in willpower will help a lot in defense and fade resistance), there are not that you *must* have. And if you are low in skills, spending karma there might be better.
You might want to consider switching to Magic C and Skills B. While you will have less CF (but you can spend some creation karma there) and loose one edge point, the points you gain in skills (and mainly in skill groups, spend the 5 in Cracking group) will more than compensate for it. As soon as you have 15 karma, you will be able to get your edge to 3, whereas improving a bunch of skills will be harder, longer and more expensive.
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Your Attributes are 4 points over limit.
I disagree with Scottys about Codeslinger, especially for Hack on the Fly, which you will be using more than any other action.
I would consider looking at Karma gen for making Technomancer.
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Thank you for the feedback.
As far as my attributes I think I am in line. I have spent 24
A -
Stats:
Base Attribute Karma Total
Logic 1 5 6
Willpower 1 4 5
Intuition 1 4 5
Charisma 1 4 5
Body 1 4 5
Agility 1 3 4
Reaction 1 10 2
Strength 1 10 2
So if you add up the attribute column it adds up to 24. I bumped my reaction and strength with 20 out of my 25 Karma.
In regards to my skills I did not realize that I received 2 rating 4 Resonce skills, so that helps out a lot!
Qualities: I am thinking of taking Focused concentration 1, Code Slinger, and exceptional attribute. My question is if I do that should I switch my logic and willpower score? What negative traits should I take?
Thanks again!!
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If you want a +2 on Hack on the Fly, take the specialty, its cheaper by 3 karma. Sure, you could take both, but still...
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Thank you again for all of your help!
I was doing some comparison last night of decker vs technomancer and i understand that a decker straight out of the box will be better in a lot of ways and not as unique in other ways, buti just wnat to make sure I ma not missing anything.
Lets say a decker attacks an IC. He rolls his attack rating from his deck, plus his logic, plus his cybercombat and plus any specific program he might have up? So if he has the Sony deck with lets say a rating of attack of 6 at that time, with a 6 logic and a 6 cyber combat and hammer running he would roll 20 dice?
Vs
The technomnacer with a 6 charisma and a 6 cybercombat. So 12?
Am I missing anything? I understand that technomacer does a lot with his Sprites, but am i missing something? And the above example could be used for firewall, sleaze and data processing.
My next question is on sprites. When they list a sprite and they give the sprite a skill, what rating is that at? Is it at whatever level is was summoned at? I just did not see that part explained?
Also lets say you have 3 registered sprites and one compiled sprite. If you take the actions in your initiative to send them doing their task can you then perform your owm matrix moves in addition to theirs in the matrix as well? So in essence you could have a little army going at once.
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If the Decker goes for a Data Spike attack, it's Cybercombat + Logic [Attack] vs Intuition + Firewall.
So that means 12d (+2d if in Hot Sim), can not have more successes than the current Attack rating of the deck (so between 4 and 7) against Host Rating x 2.
If the attack connects, the DV is Attack + net hits + 2 x number of marks you have on the IC + 2 from the Hammer program.
The IC will resist damages with Host Rating x 2.
For the TM, you have to take the hot sim bonus into account, so that's a +2 for a total of 14d.
So just on dice pool here, they are not that different. It's a bit easier to have good pools at the beginning for the decker though. As far as I know (and note that I'm pretty new at this Matrix stuff), the two main advantages of the decker is that she can reconfigure her deck attributes and the deck takes the damages (as long as there is no biofeedback that is).
The rating of the skills of a sprite is always at the level of the sprite.
And yes, once you gave an order to your sprites, you are free to do as you please.
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Thank you again! I did not realize that the decks rating was it's limiting factor. I thought it added to the dice pool.
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Thank you again for all of your help!
I was doing some comparison last night of decker vs technomancer and i understand that a decker straight out of the box will be better in a lot of ways and not as unique in other ways, buti just wnat to make sure I ma not missing anything.
Lets say a decker attacks an IC. He rolls his attack rating from his deck, plus his logic, plus his cybercombat and plus any specific program he might have up? So if he has the Sony deck with lets say a rating of attack of 6 at that time, with a 6 logic and a 6 cyber combat and hammer running he would roll 20 dice?
Vs
The technomnacer with a 6 charisma and a 6 cybercombat. So 12?
Am I missing anything? I understand that technomacer does a lot with his Sprites, but am i missing something? And the above example could be used for firewall, sleaze and data processing.
My next question is on sprites. When they list a sprite and they give the sprite a skill, what rating is that at? Is it at whatever level is was summoned at? I just did not see that part explained?
Also lets say you have 3 registered sprites and one compiled sprite. If you take the actions in your initiative to send them doing their task can you then perform your owm matrix moves in addition to theirs in the matrix as well? So in essence you could have a little army going at once.
Attack, Sleaze, and Data Processing are the Limits whether you are a Decker or Technomancer (Limits is the number of successes you are Limited to when you roll dice. Example: Hacking + Logic (Sleaze) test, if your Sleaze attribute is 6, and you roll 8 hits, you only count 6.) Firewall is a limit for a few actions (Disarm Databomb), but is usually rolled for defense. There are few actions where Data Processing and Sleaze are rolled along with a Skill, but 95% of the time they are going to be your Limits.
Attack Rating, along with being a Limit, also determines how much Damage you do with Data Spike Attack. You roll Cybercombat + Logic (Attack) vs Intuition + Firwall. If your Attack Rating is 6, you do 6 Damage plus 1 for every net hit you get, up to 12 Damage.
Hammer Program adds 2DV to your attack. It doesn't change your limit, but you do 8 Damage, plus 1 for every net hit up to 14, using the last example.
Sprites skills equal Rating, yes you could have army of Sprites, but registering is harder than Compiling.
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I have read and re-read the decking section and I do not remember seeing that ! i will go read it again! LOL
So as a technomancer with a Charisma of 5 and cybercombat of 6 and if I was hot. I would roll 13 dice with a limit of 5 dice? So 5 DV plus 1 per net hit and they would resist with the host rating x2 (not the firewall?)
Thanks!!!
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Yep.
Only the host resists with its firewall, the IC have all their dice pools at Host Rating x 2.
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Imho dump exceptional attribute: willpower as it's VERY costly for only +1 dice to resist fade.
Instead consider Otaku positive quality for +2 dice to fade resistance at a lower cost.
Also consider Specializations.
They cost 1 skill rank in chargen (or 7 karma) and confer +2 dice to specialization.
For example specialize in Hosts for Hacking in order to pump your HotF against hosts (the hardest targets) by +2.
You should consider a specialization for each of your skills (example: Pistols 1 with Specialization: Semi-Automatics would confer 3 ranks in semi auto pistols vs. for the same cost as a general 2 ranks in pistols).
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You don't only resist Fade with the willpower point. You gain one dice in a whole lot of rolls (and two on biofeedback since it's firewall + willpower).
And I agree on specialisations. For hacking, specializing on a Complex Form (Resonance Veil or Pupeteer mainly) might ne better though.
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I have read and re-read the decking section and I do not remember seeing that ! i will go read it again! LOL
So as a technomancer with a Charisma of 5 and cybercombat of 6 and if I was hot. I would roll 13 dice with a limit of 5 dice? So 5 DV plus 1 per net hit and they would resist with the host rating x2 (not the firewall?)
Thanks!!!
Well it's actually Logic + Cybercombat (Attack) (Attack being equal to Technomancers Charisma)
I have cheat sheet written up somewhere I will try to post later.
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Thank you all again for all of your help. I am starting to get the hang of all of this, but the more I read the more questions I have :)
The biggest question I have is it seams like a lot of people are saying that deckers rule and technomancers drool. I get that deckers have agents, programs and don't take bio-feedback unless htey are in hot sim, but why else are deckers superior? I also seams that to be a good technomancer you need to be creative and you might not be as straight forward as a decker.
Follow up questions:
What are the best specializations to take? I saw some but I was not sure of some of the abbreviations. You can only start with one specialization correct?
What complex forms are best to take? I saw some say puppettering, but I was thinking the drain was too much. So I was thinking of going with Static Veil, resonance veil and resonance veil.
With a logic of 5 what spirits do you keep registered and at what lvl?
Also I can only use the core rule book, so I cant take qualities out of data trails :(
That being said I was thinking about taking focused concentration, codeslinger (HoTF) and natural hardening.
Does Natural hardening help for all damage tests for a technomancer? Does this also help vs. fade?
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Thank you all again for all of your help. I am starting to get the hang of all of this, but the more I read the more questions I have :)
The biggest question I have is it seams like a lot of people are saying that deckers rule and technomancers drool. I get that deckers have agents, programs and don't take bio-feedback unless htey are in hot sim, but why else are deckers superior? I also seams that to be a good technomancer you need to be creative and you might not be as straight forward as a decker.
Follow up questions:
What are the best specializations to take? I saw some but I was not sure of some of the abbreviations. You can only start with one specialization correct?
What complex forms are best to take? I saw some say puppettering, but I was thinking the drain was too much. So I was thinking of going with Static Veil, resonance veil and resonance veil.
With a logic of 5 what spirits do you keep registered and at what lvl?
Also I can only use the core rule book, so I cant take qualities out of data trails :(
That being said I was thinking about taking focused concentration, codeslinger (HoTF) and natural hardening.
Does Natural hardening help for all damage tests for a technomancer? Does this also help vs. fade?
Technomancers are going to get better the more Karma you put into their abilities. Being a technomancer, you're not dependent on your Deck. If a Decker loses his deck or of it gets bricked, he's going to be out a lot of Nuyen. Deckers right after character creation are going to be able to Hack better than a Technomancer, but Technomancers get abilities that Deckers never get. Technomancers get +2 Dice for Matrix Perception Tests, which you will be rolling more than just about any other test, so there's that.
Yes you can only start with one specialization, but after character creation, you can buy more.
Hacking (Devices +2)
Probably one of the Best Complex Forms is Diffusion of Firewall.. BUT you need High Software Skill and High Resonance with Diffusion of Firewall Specialization to be worth it.
Static Veil is nice if you have Focused Concentration 1 or 2
Good Quality Choices.
Natural Hardening does NOT help with Fade, but does with damage resistance tests.
I think they are going to release Technomancer book for 5th Edition eventually, so there is bound to be all sorts of stuff that's going to help..
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The biggest question I have is it seams like a lot of people are saying that deckers rule and technomancers drool. I get that deckers have agents, programs and don't take bio-feedback unless htey are in hot sim, but why else are deckers superior? I also seams that to be a good technomancer you need to be creative and you might not be as straight forward as a decker.
I think that there is a problem with the CONCEPT of Technomancers (both as described and as shown in fiction), and the RULES of Technomancers. Specifically, the strongest type of Technomancer would:
1: use a Deck, and put enough Sprites into it so that every test that they make on it gets the skill dice (or the ability dice for a defensive test) doubled due to the Sprite's assists. You lose ratings in the deck's Matrix Attributes, but on defense that doesn't matter as much as the extra dice, and on offense the assisting Sprites will increase the test's limit anyhow so you act as if you are using a more expensive Deck, other than not being able to run as many Programs.
2: use a Cyberarm, which both makes up for allowing them to dump AGI / STR, and using Sprites, doubles the skill of any one-handed attacks that you may make.
3: use a Monofilament Whip, with a Sprite preventing Glitches so it's a safe weapon.
4: run a strong combat Drone, with a Sprite or two doubling its effective skill
5: get First Aid and use a Medkit, with a Sprite boosting the First Aid skill
etc.
Basically, the strongest rule-based ability of Technos over Deckers is the Diagnose ability of a Machine Sprite. But, that means that in order to take the best advantage of it, you need to use as many electronic devices as possible. Both in the Matrix, and out of it. But the concept of Technos is of people who can do amazing things without using ANY devices. Except that their best ability is only useful FOR using devices. So we have a conundrum, a conflict between the fluff description of Technos and the rule benefits of min-maxing a Cyberarm, Rotodrone, and cheap Deck.
You can start a Techno character who is tossing 20 dice into Hacking checks, AND 16+ dice into shooting with a SMG, AND 13+ dice into swinging a Monowhip. Maybe even afford a drone that shoots with 14 dice on its own, or up to a ridiculous 20 if you're controlling it (normal remote control, not Jumping In, until you get the control rig echo). I'm kind of uncertain whether you can afford an arm, deck, AND drone plus whip all at the start, but you can definitely do the deck and one kind of heavy offense: either the arm or the drone. To me, that compares nicely to Cyberarm Deckers, who have other advantages but are no longer clearly better overall.
But you have to go BADLY against the usual Technomancer concept. Even more than back when Adepts first were added, and people scoffed at the idea of gun-based Adepts, because clearly Adepts were Mystic Martial Artists, and shooting a gun was "Not Martial Arts". So now, Technos are clearly "Mind over Machine", which means that if you're using machines, you're a sell-out Technomancer and not worthy of the name.
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The biggest question I have is it seams like a lot of people are saying that deckers rule and technomancers drool. I get that deckers have agents, programs and don't take bio-feedback unless htey are in hot sim, but why else are deckers superior? I also seams that to be a good technomancer you need to be creative and you might not be as straight forward as a decker.
I think that there is a problem with the CONCEPT of Technomancers (both as described and as shown in fiction), and the RULES of Technomancers. Specifically, the strongest type of Technomancer would:
1: use a Deck, and put enough Sprites into it so that every test that they make on it gets the skill dice (or the ability dice for a defensive test) doubled due to the Sprite's assists. You lose ratings in the deck's Matrix Attributes, but on defense that doesn't matter as much as the extra dice, and on offense the assisting Sprites will increase the test's limit anyhow so you act as if you are using a more expensive Deck, other than not being able to run as many Programs.
2: use a Cyberarm, which both makes up for allowing them to dump AGI / STR, and using Sprites, doubles the skill of any one-handed attacks that you may make.
3: use a Monofilament Whip, with a Sprite preventing Glitches so it's a safe weapon.
4: run a strong combat Drone, with a Sprite or two doubling its effective skill
5: get First Aid and use a Medkit, with a Sprite boosting the First Aid skill
etc.
Basically, the strongest rule-based ability of Technos over Deckers is the Diagnose ability of a Machine Sprite. But, that means that in order to take the best advantage of it, you need to use as many electronic devices as possible. Both in the Matrix, and out of it. But the concept of Technos is of people who can do amazing things without using ANY devices. Except that their best ability is only useful FOR using devices. So we have a conundrum, a conflict between the fluff description of Technos and the rule benefits of min-maxing a Cyberarm, Rotodrone, and cheap Deck.
You can start a Techno character who is tossing 20 dice into Hacking checks, AND 16+ dice into shooting with a SMG, AND 13+ dice into swinging a Monowhip. Maybe even afford a drone that shoots with 14 dice on its own, or up to a ridiculous 20 if you're controlling it (normal remote control, not Jumping In, until you get the control rig echo). I'm kind of uncertain whether you can afford an arm, deck, AND drone plus whip all at the start, but you can definitely do the deck and one kind of heavy offense: either the arm or the drone. To me, that compares nicely to Cyberarm Deckers, who have other advantages but are no longer clearly better overall.
But you have to go BADLY against the usual Technomancer concept. Even more than back when Adepts first were added, and people scoffed at the idea of gun-based Adepts, because clearly Adepts were Mystic Martial Artists, and shooting a gun was "Not Martial Arts". So now, Technos are clearly "Mind over Machine", which means that if you're using machines, you're a sell-out Technomancer and not worthy of the name.
The problem is the DIagnostics Sprite Power. I can't imagine a lot of GMs would allow you to do all the above you mentioned, Technomancers abusing Diagnostics is like the face that used Emo Toys in 4th edition.
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Thanks again!
So starting off what would you start working towards first? The deck or a cyberarm? I only have 11k starting (due to priorities) and I am trying not to gimp myself. I was thinking that one of the first things I would start working towards with Karma is submersion lvl 1.
Can you go into a little more depth about using sprite's powers on decks and or other items?
Thanks!
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Thanks again!
So starting off what would you start working towards first? The deck or a cyberarm? I only have 11k starting (due to priorities) and I am trying not to gimp myself. I was thinking that one of the first things I would start working towards with Karma is submersion lvl 1.
Can you go into a little more depth about using sprite's powers on decks and or other items?
Thanks!
I wouldn't get either, you can store everything you need on commlink (since Technomancers don't have storage memory with their Living Persona), work on Submersion.
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Well, first, if you're going to make a Technomancer who is heavy into devices, it's something that you decide before making the character, since you're looking to spend 100k or more, which means Priority C in equipment. If you're not going that way, then it's kind of far away.
I would first look towards a Drone. You already have good Logic to be a Technomancer, and that's your shooting attribute when remote controlling it (whether with a Jump In or just a standard Control Device action). And a combat-ready drone can be had for as cheaply as $6k or so if you consider a pretty accurate Taser to be combat-ready. If you want a real weapon, a Roto-drone with an Assault Rifle is in the neighborhood of $12-15k. A lot cheaper than a deck.
Submersion should come first, probably, it's pretty cheap and really useful.
Lastly... a cyberdeck doesn't cost Essence. Neither does a drone. A cyberarm is both a lot more expensive, and costs Essence, which drops your Resonance. I really would want to have a good in-game reason why the character has a cyberarm, rather than just having an arm replaced with a cyberarm so the character can see how cool it is to have an arm that has its own AI. Well, actually, that last reason is almost convincing enough...
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The most important Matrix Action that your going to want to invest the most into is Hack on the Fly. This lets you get your Marks on Targets, which lets you do just about everything else.
So I would recommend for Technomancer or Decker. Logic at Racial Maximum. (6 For Humans)
Hacking Skill: Rating 6, Specialize in (Devices +2)
Codeslinger (Hack on the Fly)
Where you are going to be spending your Karma:
As Technomancer, you are going to want to Submerge. One Echo that you might not think about at first, is
Resonance [Program]: This echo lets you copy the
effects of one common or hacking program (p. 245).
Each time you take this echo, you must specify which
program you are mimicking. You can take this echo
more than once, each time for a different program.
Getting Baby Monitor program would be really nice for Technomancer, because getting hit with Convergence (12V Matrix Damage + Dumpshock 6S-for AR, 6P-for Hot Sim) is very bad for a Technomancer, it will almost certainly knock you out. I know that some people might not agree with me on this, but especially for a new player, I would recommend it. Yes you can perform Simple Action to check your Overwatch score, but doing that will almost always add to that score. You roll Electronic Warfare + Sleaze vs 6 dice. "Your Overwatch Score is 38" "Now its 41, I just rolled 3 hits, Take 12S damage"
You're going to be putting a lot of Karma into Hacking. (48 Karma to get from level 6 to level 9), also you want to pick up a few other specializations for Hacking (Hosts +2), (Files +2).. 7 Karma Each
This will give you 19 Dice for most Hack on the Fly Attempts (21 for Hot Sim)
These are the Host Ratings you're going to be facing.
Personal sites, pirate archives, public education 1–2
Low-end commercial, private business, public libraries, small policlubs 3–4
Social media, small colleges and universities, local police, international policlubs 5–6
Matrix games, local corporate hosts, large universities, low-level government 7–8
Hosts have all
four Matrix attributes: Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing,
and Firewall. The ratings of these attributes are usually
(Host Rating), (Host Rating + 1), (Host Rating + 2), and
(Host Rating + 3),
So you are going to be looking at dice pools to resist your Hack on the Fly Attempts (Host Rating x 2) + 0 to 3. So for a Rating 7 Host you could be looking at possibly 17 Dice rolled against your Hacking Attempt. This is why I think it's good for Deckers/Technomancers to have higher Edge. If whatever you were trying to Hack gets more successes than you, it gets one free Mark on you.
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One of the problems we are all having is that we don't have a real Decker/Tecno book yet Data trails has next to nothing for Deckers and Nothing for Tecno's even Rigger's does not really touch on the characters just the toys
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I recently started a new SR5 game, and this past weekend a new player asked if he wanted to play a Technomancer.
Since I skipped SR4, I figured this would be a necessary learning experience, so this thread (and those linked) have been fairly useful.
In the process, I've bumped into a few issues:
1) Technomancers are very min-max prone; almost by necessity rather than pure twink/power-play.
2) Matrix rules. There's a reason I truncated a lot of the decking ("hacking") in SR3, and now I'm reliving it.
3) No splatbook exclusively for Technomancers means less technical twink to worry about, but more headaches in balancing AR/VR runs for the TM at the start.
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I recently started a new SR5 game, and this past weekend a new player asked if he wanted to play a Technomancer.
Since I skipped SR4, I figured this would be a necessary learning experience, so this thread (and those linked) have been fairly useful.
In the process, I've bumped into a few issues:
1) Technomancers are very min-max prone; almost by necessity rather than pure twink/power-play.
2) Matrix rules. There's a reason I truncated a lot of the decking ("hacking") in SR3, and now I'm reliving it.
3) No splatbook exclusively for Technomancers means less technical twink to worry about, but more headaches in balancing AR/VR runs for the TM at the start.
You almost have to House Rule some stuff for Decking with Technomancers and to a lesser extent Deckers as well. My Technomancer Archetype for the games I run is different than what Technomancer Archetype I would post on these forums.
One things that sucks about making Technomancers is, the Priority system makes it very difficult. Example: Skills. There are 2 or 3 Skill Groups that have very important Skills you more than likely want at max starting rating. Hacking from Cracking Group, Computer from Electronics, Compiling from Tasking (I think that's right name). Technomancers (and Deckers) taking priority A or B for skills, for A, are going to have to take One important skill group at rating 4, or 2 important skill groups at Rating 5, and you're not going to be able to specialize. Same if you take Priority B, your going to have Important Skill Group at rating 5.
There is almost no way to make a even halfway decent Metahuman Technomancer with Priority character creation. Point Buy (Karma gen) is the only way to do it.
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You almost have to House Rule some stuff for Decking with Technomancers and to a lesser extent Deckers as well. My Technomancer Archetype for the games I run is different than what Technomancer Archetype I would post on these forums.
Out of curiosity, what sort of differences are there between the two Technomancers?
No pressure if it's complex; I'm just a sucker for game design. (made a few of my own systems)
One things that sucks about making Technomancers is, the Priority system makes it very difficult. Example: Skills. There are 2 or 3 Skill Groups that have very important Skills you more than likely want at max starting rating. Hacking from Cracking Group, Computer from Electronics, Compiling from Tasking (I think that's right name). Technomancers (and Deckers) taking priority A or B for skills, for A, are going to have to take One important skill group at rating 4, or 2 important skill groups at Rating 5, and you're not going to be able to specialize. Same if you take Priority B, your going to have Important Skill Group at rating 5.
There is almost no way to make a even halfway decent Metahuman Technomancer with Priority character creation. Point Buy (Karma gen) is the only way to do it.
Yeah, going through the creation process with my friend for his Technomancer showed just how nasty the skill requirements were.
There are way too many "split horizons" on Skill Groups and Priority doesn't let you pick any Hacking Group or Computer skills as your freebies for taking Resonance A/B/C, despite those being wheelhouse categories.
I would normally endorse Karma System myself, but the issue I've run into there, is it punishes people who play non-humans pretty badly on Attributes.
Having to pay for the metatype and the rising costs for each extra attribute point hurts; so I had everyone roll Priority for the first time around.
Ironically, it matter since every player I have for my New Orleans game is now Human. -_-
I'm tempted to just come up with an adjusted generation system myself at this point.
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Having to pay for the metatype and the rising costs for each extra attribute point hurts; so I had everyone roll Priority for the first time around.
Personally I think that the Karma system makes Metatype better! Every Metatype, except the Elf, is worth more karma in attributes than it cost. The Ork, for instance, cost 50 Karma but BOD 4 and STR 3 cost 70 Karma (-10 for the 2 Edge of human) and you get free low-light vision on top. If Metavariant are allowed you will always have a cheaper choice than human, the problem is that the min/maxing mindset from Priority is hard to shake off and you want to max attributes but putting only a couple of point should be good enough when you have a starting BOD of 4 (and attributes can always be raised later with Karma).
Troll can make awesome hybrid build, if you are willing to sacrifice 1 dice in LOG/INT for an mage/decker you can start with 5 BOD/STR for only 90 Karma. The same on a human would have cost 140 karma! And on top of that you get Thermographic Vision, +1 Armor and +1 reach (you also stand out in a crowd).
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Quote from: Bushw4cker on (21:55:22/07-19-16)
You almost have to House Rule some stuff for Decking with Technomancers and to a lesser extent Deckers as well. My Technomancer Archetype for the games I run is different than what Technomancer Archetype I would post on these forums.
Out of curiosity, what sort of differences are there between the two Technomancers?
No pressure if it's complex; I'm just a sucker for game design. (made a few of my own systems)
Nothing that special, I'm attaching the Technomancer Archetype that I would recommend for Starting Player that wants to play Technomancer, but doesn't want to design his own.
The Archetype I posted is a little too min/max for my games. I like to reward creativity in my games. One of the optional rules in 4th ed., for Flamboyant gameplay, was a success could be counted on a 4, 5 or 6, giving you a 50% chance to roll a hit. I'll use this occasionally if player does something clever, or good roleplaying.
Yeah, going through the creation process with my friend for his Technomancer showed just how nasty the skill requirements were.
There are way too many "split horizons" on Skill Groups and Priority doesn't let you pick any Hacking Group or Computer skills as your freebies for taking Resonance A/B/C, despite those being wheelhouse categories.
I would normally endorse Karma System myself, but the issue I've run into there, is it punishes people who play non-humans pretty badly on Attributes.
Having to pay for the metatype and the rising costs for each extra attribute point hurts; so I had everyone roll Priority for the first time around.
Ironically, it matter since every player I have for my New Orleans game is now Human. -_-
I'm tempted to just come up with an adjusted generation system myself at this point.
Yeah, but like what Kuriem said...
the problem is that the min/maxing mindset from Priority is hard to shake off
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Nothing that special, I'm attaching the Technomancer Archetype that I would recommend for Starting Player that wants to play Technomancer, but doesn't want to design his own.
Looks very similar to what I rolled under Priority, albeit with better skills. This first game series is going to be fairly low powered anyway, mostly smuggling runs and shenanigans in New Orleans.
In any case, I don't have to worry too much about min/max taking over, at least in Shadowrun (Pathfinder, on the other hand...)
My players know what good RP is worth in my games. Besides, Priority Creation makes for quicker character selection, since there's no scaling costs for Attributes or Skills.
Thanks for the heads up, Kuriem too.
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Nobody bothered linking the petnomancer threads?
Shame.
I mean quite frankly I cannot recommend anyone play a TM in 5e as it stands, but especially not a total newbie.
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Nobody bothered linking the petnomancer threads?
Shame.
I mean quite frankly I cannot recommend anyone play a TM in 5e as it stands, but especially not a total newbie.
I do not think that the Technomancer is a bad choice... though they are challenging.
The one I have been playing has done really well (Built with the Main book when 5th Edition first came out), and she is far from a Petnomancer... Built more as an Industrial Espionage/Intelligence Specialist, but she has worked pretty well.
There are some definite tradeoffs, though.
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There's a reason people suggest sams for new players. They're straightforward. Magic can be weird but it's very direct (even the debuffs and sneaky stuff). Deckers are still rather confusing even though they're less so than 4e. TMs blend the decker and magic stuff, and don't really put the pitfalls on easy display.
It's a travesty that Sidhe got a book before TMs. Really shows that there is no priority in fixing a borked archetype that is now considered "core to the game." The wait for the Rigger book was bad enough.
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I agree about the wait for the Technomancer book... It has extended into a Ludicrous timeframe. :(
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The biggest question I have is it seams like a lot of people are saying that deckers rule and technomancers drool. I get that deckers have agents, programs and don't take bio-feedback unless htey are in hot sim, but why else are deckers superior? I also seams that to be a good technomancer you need to be creative and you might not be as straight forward as a decker.
I think that there is a problem with the CONCEPT of Technomancers (both as described and as shown in fiction), and the RULES of Technomancers. Specifically, the strongest type of Technomancer would:
1: use a Deck, and put enough Sprites into it so that every test that they make on it gets the skill dice (or the ability dice for a defensive test) doubled due to the Sprite's assists. You lose ratings in the deck's Matrix Attributes, but on defense that doesn't matter as much as the extra dice, and on offense the assisting Sprites will increase the test's limit anyhow so you act as if you are using a more expensive Deck, other than not being able to run as many Programs.
2: use a Cyberarm, which both makes up for allowing them to dump AGI / STR, and using Sprites, doubles the skill of any one-handed attacks that you may make.
3: use a Monofilament Whip, with a Sprite preventing Glitches so it's a safe weapon.
4: run a strong combat Drone, with a Sprite or two doubling its effective skill
5: get First Aid and use a Medkit, with a Sprite boosting the First Aid skill
etc.
Basically, the strongest rule-based ability of Technos over Deckers is the Diagnose ability of a Machine Sprite. But, that means that in order to take the best advantage of it, you need to use as many electronic devices as possible. Both in the Matrix, and out of it. But the concept of Technos is of people who can do amazing things without using ANY devices. Except that their best ability is only useful FOR using devices. So we have a conundrum, a conflict between the fluff description of Technos and the rule benefits of min-maxing a Cyberarm, Rotodrone, and cheap Deck.
You can start a Techno character who is tossing 20 dice into Hacking checks, AND 16+ dice into shooting with a SMG, AND 13+ dice into swinging a Monowhip. Maybe even afford a drone that shoots with 14 dice on its own, or up to a ridiculous 20 if you're controlling it (normal remote control, not Jumping In, until you get the control rig echo). I'm kind of uncertain whether you can afford an arm, deck, AND drone plus whip all at the start, but you can definitely do the deck and one kind of heavy offense: either the arm or the drone. To me, that compares nicely to Cyberarm Deckers, who have other advantages but are no longer clearly better overall.
But you have to go BADLY against the usual Technomancer concept. Even more than back when Adepts first were added, and people scoffed at the idea of gun-based Adepts, because clearly Adepts were Mystic Martial Artists, and shooting a gun was "Not Martial Arts". So now, Technos are clearly "Mind over Machine", which means that if you're using machines, you're a sell-out Technomancer and not worthy of the name.
The problem is the DIagnostics Sprite Power. I can't imagine a lot of GMs would allow you to do all the above you mentioned, Technomancers abusing Diagnostics is like the face that used Emo Toys in 4th edition.
All of this. Technolore seems to make them anti-tech ('ware, devices, etc.) but their rules make them technophiles. The lore makes them seem like crazy amazing hackers, but the rules make hacking with their living persona inferior to starting deck hackers and make a case for using a deck as a technomancer. I hope the technobook helps realign this lore/crunch divide. At this point I don't really care how it resolves, just that it does.
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Nobody bothered linking the petnomancer threads?
Search function doesn't find my post anymore. It may have been eaten by a Grue, or possibly the Search function is fucking with me? I've got between some and most of it on my old laptop, I'll see if I can re-post it.
Edit: Man that is buried.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20066.0
A touch dated, but the basics are still there. It's mostly playstyle, the builds are pretty straight forward.
Second Edit: Just noticed I put it in my .sig a while ago... sheesh. This whole getting up at 4:30 AM is getting to me, never get old kids, it's embarrassing sometimes.