Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: dposluns on <07-18-16/1621:56>
-
Just wondering if anyone has done anything interesting with a character that is mostly essenced-out in cyberware/bioware but still has a Magic rating of 1. What kinds of clever uses, be it spells, abilities, summons, Adept powers, etc. are you able to squeeze out of that single point of Magic to make it worthwhile?
Even if there aren't more clever tricks, I think it's interesting that if you can get the nuyen for it (or get it crafted for you cheaper with the right contacts), you could bond a single Force-5 Power Focus pretty early on for 30 karma and have the effective magical power of a chargen magician. (Or if your design is just want to cast a single type of spell, etc. you could get a focus specific to that ability for only 10 karma.) Alternately if you start initiating you can raise your Magic stat directly starting at only 10 karma, and there may be metamagics that on their own are already powerful enough to make it worthwhile.
Are there any interesting/cool complementary combos of ware and magic out there?
-
Priority D magic, Way of the Burn Out, 5 Karma to bump magic back up to 1, tiny bit of Sorcery, 5 Karma to learn Detox.. Combine with Biocompatibility Cyberware Quality and load up on about 8 Essence worth of Augments, give or take. Add Narco and assorted Drugs because Detox only needs one net hit IIRC.
I think that was about the cheesiest thing I could come up with.
Focused Concentration and Sustain Foci would start pushing some of your secondary stats towards the max if you really wanted to, but that cuts into your initial 'ware budget. Probably more of a growth path IMO for those.
Anyway, yeah. Burnout cyber-juicer, accept no substitutes.
-
It will be much easier to do with karmagen than Priority or Sum to Ten.
With karmagen for a mere 15 karma you can go Aspected Magician and pick a couple of Passive Detection Spell which does not rely too much on the net hit. Some of them like Mindlink or Mindnet, Extended will fully work with a single hit (the range for Mindnet, Extended will be 20 meters, might want to have at least 2 Magic for this one so you can bump it up to 80 meters).
For 20 Karma you can pick Adept and maybe spend a extra 10 karma to raise Magic to 2 so you can pick up a couple of useful adept powers, there is plenty of choices here so it depends on what you want to do (Improved Reflexes for a Street Sam for example), you can even add a Mentor Spirit for some easy extra dice.
For a Full Magician it is really not worth it. The interest of being a full magician and having access to Summoning AND spellcasting is a bit pointless, better go Aspected for a Burnout.
Hobbes already mentioned the Burnout's Way I do not think I have anything to add on that. It is an easy cheese that was added in Street Grimoire.
Finally the Force Power Focus is a bit pointless with 1 Magic because the Force of your spell will still be limited by Magic x 2 (so 2), you will have a bigger dice pool but you will need to spend Edge to break the limit.
-
Is the Biocompatibility Cyberware quality from Chrome Flesh? What does it do?
Interesting stuff on the Burnout's Way... I hadn't checked that out. Seems like an interesting backdoor to load up with more augments...
-
Finally the Force Power Focus is a bit pointless with 1 Magic because the Force of your spell will still be limited by Magic x 2 (so 2), you will have a bigger dice pool but you will need to spend Edge to break the limit.
That's a good point, although reagents can also mitigate that (e.g. Force 1 Increase Reflexes + 6 reagents = super-fun-happy-time). You would have to choose your spells around it for sure.
-
What about a high-Charisma mage with Summoning and Binding who binds a whole bunch of Force 1 or 2 spirits? Is there anything those spirits could even do that would make it a worthwhile strategy? It'd be interesting to watch, at least :D
-
While it could work for a combat character I think you can do even more crazy stuff with non-combat.
For example Vocal Range Expander + Audio Analyzer + False Face will allow you to copy someone. Add to that the Adept Power Commanding Voice (from Stolen Souls) and you can just copy the boss and order people around. If you add Mimic adept power you can even fool biometric readers.
An other idea could be a 'super spotter' by using all the wares to increase perception and senses and some adept power for that too (or just Enhanced Perception to add even more dice).
Something else worth to note is that Muscle Replacement will cost you 1 Essence (so 1 Power Point) to raise your STR and AGI by 1. If you pick the Adept Power Improved Physical Attribute it will cost you x2 as much PP. If you go for Muscle Toner/Augmentation it is even cheaper in PP. Of course all that comes with an added Nuyen cost but if you go karmagen the final karma cost is often cheaper for Wares (for example Magic 4->5 is 30 Karma which convert into 60k Nuyen, almost enough for Muscle Toner rating 2).
On the other hand this is not true for Initiative Wares that either have a high Essence and/or Nuyen cost, so it could be better to pick some Adept Power instead to raise Initiative. For example going Magic 3, Improved Reflexes level 2 (Or Magic 2, Improved Reflexes 1) Nevermind those are not compatible and Initiative BoosterBoosted Reflexes Bioware will gives you 4D6 Initiative for a portion of what it would have cost you if you were going Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Booster, a single Cram will get you to the fabulous world of 5D6 Initiative!
-
On the other hand this is not true for Initiative Wares that either have a high Essence and/or Nuyen cost, so it could be better to pick some Adept Power instead to raise Initiative. For example going Magic 3, Improved Reflexes level 2 (Or Magic 2, Improved Reflexes 1) and Initiative Booster Bioware will gives you 4D6 Initiative for a portion of what it would have cost you if you were going Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Booster, a single Cram will get you to the fabulous world of 5D6 Initiative!
One thing about this is that most forms of enhancement to Initiative are incompatible with each other and do not stack. If you've got Spellcasting 6 and some way to mitigate the sustain penalty (e.g. a Force-1 focus or Focused Concentration 1 or the Heightened Concern Adept Power) then I'm a big fan of the Increase Reflexes spell cast with reagents, although with this build you'd need to find a way to mitigate your low dice pool. Or if you Initiate and get the Quickening metamagic you could Edge the spellcasting test and Quicken with 1 karma to make it permanent-ish.
-
Don't forget counterspelling if you make an aspected spellcaster, your Magic level doesn't matter there (as long as you don't dispel that is) and it's always nice to get more dice to resist spells.
-
I'm sure it would get expensive but you could use edge and reagents to remove the limit on alot of spells. I'm away from books at the moment but I'm sure there's quite a few spells this would be useful with. You might even be able to use teamwork tests on spirits of man and use your edge to break the limit since spirits can use your edge. You'd need 2 magic for this though as you need at least force three spirits for optional powers.
-
One thing about this is that most forms of enhancement to Initiative are incompatible with each other and do not stack. If you've got Spellcasting 6 and some way to mitigate the sustain penalty (e.g. a Force-1 focus or Focused Concentration 1 or the Heightened Concern Adept Power) then I'm a big fan of the Increase Reflexes spell cast with reagents, although with this build you'd need to find a way to mitigate your low dice pool. Or if you Initiate and get the Quickening metamagic you could Edge the spellcasting test and Quicken with 1 karma to make it permanent-ish.
This is not true. Most WARES that enhance initiative are incompatible but Wares, Adept Powers, Spells and Drugs are perfectly compatible (Well there is the Lightning Reflexes quality that is compatible with nothing). This is why something like Initiative Booster become interesting because it is a cheap 1D6 on which you can add other dice from other sources.
Quickening is a bit of a trap. If your GM deside to let it slide lucky for you but it is easily countered by an enemy mage (dispelling will roll against Magic + Force x 2 so around 6 dice) and it will make you a big astral beacon. You might even lose the spell just by trying to go through a Mana Barrier.
-
Is the Biocompatibility Cyberware quality from Chrome Flesh? What does it do?
Interesting stuff on the Burnout's Way... I hadn't checked that out. Seems like an interesting backdoor to load up with more augments...
Yeah, it's from Chrome Flesh ( but it has been around since SR3 at least)
For 5 Karma
the Essenceloss from either Cyber OR Bioware is 10 % less
HougH!
Medicineman
-
One thing about this is that most forms of enhancement to Initiative are incompatible with each other and do not stack. If you've got Spellcasting 6 and some way to mitigate the sustain penalty (e.g. a Force-1 focus or Focused Concentration 1 or the Heightened Concern Adept Power) then I'm a big fan of the Increase Reflexes spell cast with reagents, although with this build you'd need to find a way to mitigate your low dice pool. Or if you Initiate and get the Quickening metamagic you could Edge the spellcasting test and Quicken with 1 karma to make it permanent-ish.
This is not true. Most WARES that enhance initiative are incompatible but Wares, Adept Powers, Spells and Drugs are perfectly compatible (Well there is the Lightning Reflexes quality that is compatible with nothing). This is why something like Initiative Booster become interesting because it is a cheap 1D6 on which you can add other dice from other sources.
Well here's my survey of the available options to you:
- Adept's Improved Reflexes is definitely not compatible with any other technological or magical improvements to initiative (CRB 310).
- Synaptic Booster is also not compatible with anything else that improves Initiative (CRB 461).
- Lightning Reflexes is similarly incompatible with everything, as you observed (Run Faster 148).
- Wired Reflexes only specify incompatibility with other augmentations (CRB 455), so as written could work with magic/drugs.
- Move-By-Wire (Chrome Flesh 84) is incompatible with other augments, but as written could still be compatible with magic/drugs.
- Boosted Reflexes (Chrome Flesh 118) likewise only is incompatible with other augmentations.
- Synaptic Acceleration (Chrome Flesh 162) also only mentions incompatibility with augmentation.
That just leaves drugs and the Increase Reflexes spell, which technically you could combine with any one of Wired Reflexes, Move-By-Wire, Boosted Reflexes and Synaptic Acceleration. I'm not sure what Initiative Booster is, I couldn't find it any of the sources I've got. But it pretty much stands: most initiative-altering things you can take don't stack with each other; there are only a few exceptions and they're pretty inconvenient.
I also take back what I said about using Increase Reflexes: I forgot it's an Essence-spell so you're going to be taking a 5-dice penalty to an already difficult to cast spell, so it's probably not a good choice in practice for this kind of build.
-
Damn apparently I cannot read and/or completely forgot that Improved Reflexes was incompatible. Same for Synaptic, the fact that it does not stack with drugs makes it much less appealing. Sorry Initiative Booster is Boosted Reflexes, as I said previously I cannot read :P
-
Here is a link to a full magician street sam i made. The concept is based around being good at both physical combat and astral combat. He works as a drug fueled combat character with magic perks and growth potential.
https://m.reddit.com/r/hubchargen/comments/4ml5c7/dropout_first_run_resubmit/?ref=search_posts
He was built for runnerhub, which houseruled that if magic hits 0 you permanently burn out and no regular attributes can be at 1, so the character could be even more efficient without those rules (a little more karma, taking essence down to 1 instead of 2, cheaper ware for and extra nuyen)
-
Chrome Flesh helps a lot.
Aspected d sorcerers make good street sams, usually billed as anti-magicians, made to fight enemy magicians/spirits. Counterspelling and assensing are not dependent on magic rating. You get to use weapon foci. You also can get a mentor spirit.
-
To sum it up :
Adept : always good stuff to pick even with only 1 Magic especially with Mentor Spirits. Powers like Traceless Walk or Wall Running can open a lot of options or just go for some extra Dice in whatever.
Aspected Magician : work well too, you want to take Sorcery as Conjuring and Enchanting are weak without Magic. Counterspelling, Assensing and Astral Combat do not scale on Magic so they are all good to build a burnout magician around. Combat and Illusion magics are big no as it is mostly opposed test, Health can work if you are not targetting yourself. Detection does not scale too much on the spell Force so it is a viable choice. Manipulation has some good utility spells like Levitate and can also work as well without too much magic.
Magician : Pick that only if you want to have access to Astral Projection (but the time is scaled on your Magic so it is pretty risky).
Mystic Adept : Not a bad pick since it combines the small benefits of both Adept and Aspected Magician but too costly. Too bad there is not an Aspected Mystic Adept.
-
Counterspelling is a good skill with magic 1 - the most common use -spell defense- is not effective from magic 1.
Asensing is a really cool ability - no need to use magic. (I'd go for it).
summoning - summon F2 spirit and get access to concelment (-2 dice to spot you), or movement (x2 speed) not bad for 1 magic.
Levitate is a good spell - 1 hit does a lot for you.
Shape change - endless utility just 1 hit necessary to become any animal you like (+-2 body), or to change others.
Magic fingers - most of the utility stuff you can do with agility/str 1 or 2. (push buttons, deploy grenades, fetch little objects.
Shape material or element wall
because the ability to tunnel into a cooperate building, or to create a small wall can be very useful.
CLAIRVOYANCE - the ability to look around corners - again 1 hit is enough to do so.
You cannot do combat stuff - but you can still do many utility spell that would give you a lot of flavor.
-
Counterspelling is a good skill with magic 1 - the most common use -spell defense- is not effective from magic 1.
Spell defense is just your Counterspelling skill, it doesn't rely on Magic. So it's actually very useful with Magic 1.
Some other neat ideas there.
-
So I messed around with this a bit in Hero Lab and discovered the following:
- RAW, you can't do Burnout's Way with Aspected, since ways are only for Adepts (and this particular Way even references "the adept" in its text). So it's either an Adept or a Mystic Adept.
- It's maybe a bug in Hero Lab, but if you, say, have a Magic of 1 and drop your Essence by 2 then under the hood your magic goes to -1 and you need to raise it back up to 0 before you can raise it to 1 again. RAW I don't think this is how it's supposed to work but if you go with RAW there is something very questionable about the loophole that through BP you could start with a Magic of 1, reduce it to 0, pay nothing for the essence loss for a bunch of cyberware you get and then raise it back up for only 5, 10, 15 karma etc.
- Hero Lab also exposes some other corner cases in RAW that make this difficult to :
- Essence loss not only drops your Magic stat but your MAX Magic stat, which means if you take >5 points of Essence (unless you take Exceptional Attribute, which you can't take in addition to Burnout's Way at chargen) you burn out and can never be magical again, via Initiation or otherwise.
- Your Initiate grade can't be higher than your Magic level. So if your Magic gets to 0 you can't initiate at all, and if you Initiate before the essence loss that initiation goes away. So you can't Initiate at chargen (assuming that's houseruled as okay) to get around the Essence problem above.
- You could take Burnout's Way after chargen for 0 karma (if you dump 2 points of Essence first without its benefit) but then you don't have the money from chargen to get the augments you want. (GM houserule to let you carry the money over for purposes of "secondary chargen" would solve this.)
I'm still playing around with it, but the challenges are daunting.
-
Another issue is that if you want Astral Perception to fight spirits, projecting mages, etc. you can't ever technically let your Magic have hit 0 or you will lose the Adept Power, and you must have had it if you want to have the Assensing ability at chargen. You can gain it back via Initiation and Power Point but that's an expensive proposition.
-
There are still some disagreements re: chargen rules and hitting magic 0. Some would even argue that hitting magic 0 burns you out (even though that this is clearly not the case in crb, it is the case for technomancers in crb. instead of ruling as is, or more broadly to have technomancer rules work more like magic user rules, some would say that the magic rules are the incorrect ones and have them work more like the technomancer rules. Given the consensus that the technomancer rules are of much poorer quality and depth than the magic rules, I tend to favor keeping the magic rules in place and using them as a guide for techno rules.)
I don't play that magic score goes negative during chargen, especially for priority and sum to ten. There are no negative stats. If you start off as an aspected sorcerer priority d. And take 3 essence of 'ware. Your magic hits 0, your max magic drops to 3, and you can spend your meta special points to raise magic up or edge. Alternatively, you could use karma to buy back Magic during the last phase of chargen process, but of course your cannot say spend 15 karma to get Magic back to 2 and use a special point to get to 3.
Karma buy may be a different story, but it may be edition carryover bias. Let's say you pick up aspected magician for 15 karma and the free Magic 1. Some would say that if you got two essence worth of 'ware on chargen, you would have to pay the karma to raise that Magic to 3 to let it drop back down to 1, because there aren't the same kinds of steps in karma buy, it just kind of happens all at once. However, doing the math, this actually makes produces karmicly worse off characters than in the other two chargen systems. Karmicly similar characters can be created if that 15 karma and free Magic 1 is a floor. So let's say your aspected magician gets 2 essence worth of 'ware, their Magic would still be 1 without paying more karma and their max magic would be 4. If you want to raise Magic higher, you would pay the regular karma.
-
All those are perfectly normal except maybe for this magic/essence thing :
- There is no such thing as Negative attribute. 0 is always the minimum so it's true, if you have 1 Magic you can take -3 Essence at chargen and raise it back to 3 without further cost. This is a common cheese with Priority D Adept to get some cheap Adept Powers along with Cyberwares. Your GM might decide to rule that you have to spend your Special Attributes before buying Wares to avoid that though.
- If your magic get to 0 at chargen it is assumed that you can raise it back, else you would just wasted your priority on magic. Because there is no karma cost to get your Magic from 0 to 1 karmagen can abuse it even better because you will never waste points on your magic rating.
- If your magic gets to 0 during play you can kiss goodbye to your magic. Even if you manage to raise back your essence there is no way to get back your magic (unless your GM is super generous and allow a second awakening, not sure how it fits lore wise though). All your Active Magic skills will become Knowledge.
-
You are allowed to raise magic back from 0 during play. Per the CRB, if your max magic hits 0, you are burned out. As long as your max magic stays above 0 you have the option to be magical. So if someone with magic 6 and essence 6 in play initiates. Their max magic becomes 7. They could then get 5.99 essence worth of 'ware. Dropping their magic to 0 and their max magic to 1. They have a Magic 0, but they are not burnt out. They can still buy back Magic to 1 and regain their magic abilities.
-
You are allowed to raise magic back from 0 during play. Per the CRB, if your max magic hits 0, you are burned out. As long as your max magic stays above 0 you have the option to be magical. So if someone with magic 6 and essence 6 in play initiates. Their max magic becomes 7. They could then get 5.99 essence worth of 'ware. Dropping their magic to 0 and their max magic to 1. They have a Magic 0, but they are not burnt out. They can still buy back Magic to 1 and regain their magic abilities.
I agree with this except that in CRB it states that your Initiation grade may not be higher than your Magic level, and if your Magic drops below your Initiation grade then you lose that Initiation grade. The only way I see that working with the 5.99 Essence version is if you take Exceptional Attribute to keep your maximum from dropping to zero.
-
Ah. good call! so you wouldn't be able to use initiate grades to hit 0.
But you could start with Magic 4 And Max Magic 6. Hit Magic 0 with 5 essence lost, as your max magic would still be 1.
-
Ah. good call! so you wouldn't be able to use initiate grades to hit 0.
But you could start with Magic 4 And Max Magic 6. Hit Magic 0 with 5 essence lost, as your max magic would still be 1.
You can start with Magic 1 and Max Magic 6 (if you're doing point buy) so long as you don't spend more than 5 Essence, spending more than 5 is what gets you into the tricky corner (which basically dictates you must spend 14 Quality karma to take Exceptional Attribute to preserve your Awakened status).
-
It's also hampering that in point-buy you can only spend 200 karma on resources, i.e. 400k nuyen, which is 50k less than what you can get with priority or sum-to-ten... >:(
-
All those are perfectly normal except maybe for this magic/essence thing :
- If your magic get to 0 at chargen it is assumed that you can raise it back, else you would just wasted your priority on magic. Because there is no karma cost to get your Magic from 0 to 1 karmagen can abuse it even better because you will never waste points on your magic rating.
It isn't free. You have to buy a special awakened quality to be an adept (20 Karma) or an aspected magician (15 Karma), which gives you a Magic rating of 1.