Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Major Doom on <08-11-16/1823:40>
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Going by the Perceiving Magic rules in the rulebook, page 280, I understand that an observer gets to make a Perception Test in the moment a spellslinger is casting a spell the character encounters. But what about Sustained spells that have already been cast before an observer was even present?
For example, a spellslinger casts Detect Life on an area, to use for ambushing. When an observer enters the area, does the character get to make a Perception Test to notice the spell and rolls to resist (Willpower + Logic, since Detect Life is an Active spell), or just rolls to resist the spell without perceiving it?
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Just rolls to resist without perceiving it. The Perception check is just for the spellcasting itself.
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"Detection spells: These spells enhance the senses." I don't think you can simply notice someone using a Detection spell. You might use Astral Perception and try Assensing but that's it.
Street Grimoire, page 12: "Magic is normally an invisible process to the non-Awakened. A normal can no more discern the casting of a spell than a casual shopper can read the coding behind a sales algorithm directed against them." and a couple of spells tend to describe "invisible" when dealing with Mana spells. You can interfere that most mana spells are invisible and Detection spells are invisible.
Perception usually needs to beat a treshold or another test. You would roll to see the caster, not the spell.
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For most sustained spells, being able to see the presence of a spell in meat space would defeat the spells purpose, namely invisibility spells. The other ones all have some visible effects anyway, like a acid pool, and no test is needed.
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Thanks all for the clarification.
Perception usually needs to beat a treshold or another test.
It's actually you need to meet or beat a threshold.
"Each time you roll the dice, you’ll be looking to get enough hits to meet or beat a threshold, which is the number of hits you need to do the thing you’re trying to do."
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Thanks all for the clarification.
Perception usually needs to beat a treshold or another test.
It's actually you need to meet or beat a threshold.
"Each time you roll the dice, you’ll be looking to get enough hits to meet or beat a threshold, which is the number of hits you need to do the thing you’re trying to do."
Agreed. I explained myself incorrectly.
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Although there are plenty of cases where meeting the threshold doesn't get you anything. First Aid for example, boxes healed is equal to hots above the threshold (2). Getting 2 hits is technically a success, but it doesn't do anything for you.
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"Detection spells: These spells enhance the senses." I don't think you can simply notice someone using a Detection spell. You might use Astral Perception and try Assensing but that's it.
Street Grimoire, page 12: "Magic is normally an invisible process to the non-Awakened. A normal can no more discern the casting of a spell than a casual shopper can read the coding behind a sales algorithm directed against them." and a couple of spells tend to describe "invisible" when dealing with Mana spells. You can interfere that most mana spells are invisible and Detection spells are invisible.
Perception usually needs to beat a treshold or another test. You would roll to see the caster, not the spell.
Which is the rules contradicting themselves again, as magic warps reality in ways that can be detected from the meat world, as noticing the casting is seeing the unnatural ripples in the world.
What, if anything, can be seen of active spell effects is dubious. Personally, I find completely undetectable magic that only affects the values of the numbers you're throwing at each other boring and flavorless.
Invisibility is one thing. Undetectable is its point. But an armor spell even less detectable than an invisible force field? Lame.
At a low force armor spell, you shake someone's hand and they'll probably notice. Medium force and you may notice dust, debris, and rain not touching them in their protective bubble. High force? Frag subtlety. You're in a magic glowing suit of armor.
Boosting someone's strength? A small boost would be subtle, but if you go whole hog shooting someone up into the outright supermetahuman, they're gonna hulk out.
Case by case, omae.
And those detection spells are some of the most detectable to the trained eye. You don't even need to spot the magic. Humans are used to interacting with humans with the same basic senses. You can generally tell when someone is focusing on any given sense. Sight, hearing, smell. Unless you actively hide noticing something (an opposed skill roll), you have tells. For magical supersenses, you still have physical tells, which are liable to be bizarre and alien compared to those with normal human senses.
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Invisibility is one thing. Undetectable is its point. But an armor spell even less detectable than an invisible force field? Lame.
At a low force armor spell, you shake someone's hand and they'll probably notice. Medium force and you may notice dust, debris, and rain not touching them in their protective bubble. High force? Frag subtlety. You're in a magic glowing suit of armor.
Armor spell, regardless of Force, still glows:
This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the subject that protects against Physical Damage. It provides Armor equal to the hits scored and is cumulative with other armor.
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It really depends on the spell. Some have a visual clue (like Armor), and some don't.
From a strict RAW approach, you only get a perception check during the casting, and not while it is sustained.
Some GMs disagree with this.
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Oh, hey, it does glow.
In that case, at my table, it'd be way less noticeable at force 1 than at force 12. :P
From a strict RAW approach, you only get a perception check during the casting, and not while it is sustained.
Some GMs disagree with this.
RAW doesn't really specify whether you can detect spells while you're sustained, save in specific cases. I'd say that's less "By RAW you don't get a check," more, "Whether or not you get a check is a grey area in the rules." There's nothing specifying whether or not most spells have some visible indicator.
Though if someone buffs your body score, you're gonna have to get that fancy dress refitted.
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Why? When someone buffs your logic score, your head doubles in volume?
That increase can be just an increase in efficiency and nothing more. Increasing strength could mean you get more for what you have, rather than increase your muscles volume. It's a health spell, not a manipulation one.
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Though if someone buffs your body score, you're gonna have to get that fancy dress refitted.
No. Run & Gun, 59:
When an item is Custom Fit, any changes to an individual’s Physical Attributes, whether through Karma advancement or augmentation (but not through magic), require the suit to be refit.
That means magic won't increase the size of your muscles or anything.
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@Blue Rose
Its the language used in the Motiving Magic section, and the way some spells work.
I agree it gets a little ambigous with the language, (Hence why I said some GMs disagree). But, for me it boils down to rational thought.
Many spells that need to be sustained are 100% useless if people get a chance to notice magic once they are up and running. (Don't confuse this with resisting the effects of said magic.)
Mask/physical mask
Invisibility/improved invisibility
Phantasm/trid phantasm
And others...
Since the resistance of the spells is tied to the force mages will be casting at a high force. Which means if you allow a noticing magic roll for these spells on top of a resistance, they will automatically be noticed - thus defeating these spells....
Now, allowing a chance to notice a mage in the act of casting these spells isn't as big a deal,but once cast....
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Hence I say case by case.
But take the spells you listed. They have a clear and visible spell effect. That's the point of the spell. It's just a matter of passing it off as real. In my book, the higher the force, the more real the spell becomes, the greater the effect on reality. For an illusion spell, that means a more realistic illusion.
And in the case of invisibility, it has an in-written chance to resist. That is the chance to spot the illusion. Personally, for a physical invisibility spell, I interpret this as the spell being more like predator camouflage than actual invisibility, and if you resist, it's not that you get a perfect technicolor vision of the person who's cloaked. Rather, you see the imperfections in that camouflage. Because that's more interesting and thematic.
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If I am understanding what you are saying, that makes no sense.
If you allow a noticing magic test on any of those sustained spells, you have just defeated the purpose of those spells. (Note I am not arguing a resistance test).
Basically, if I understand you, you are allowing 2 magic tests, one to resist the effects, and one to notice a magical effect....
So someone who casts physical mask at force 10 will ALWAYS be viewed at magical by everyone around them, thus defeating the point of the physical mask spell, which is to appear as someone else - just due to the fact that its a noticable magical effect!
IE: male mage is wanted by corp security, so he casts physical mask (F10) to appear as a female. The guard fails the resistance test so he sees a female. However, he autopasses the noticing magic test, thus knows that the 'female' in question has a magical effect on them....
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There are several cases in the books where noticing sustained magic goes against the nature of the setting.
Run Faster deals specifically with using magic on your Johnson (no, not like that you pervs); specifically, using manipulation magic is a good way to earn a black mark or even a death sentence, but using spells like Analyze Truth is OK.
If it was possible to detect a sustained high-Force Analyze Truth spell just through the Perceiving Magic rules, this in-setting suggestion makes very little sense as nearly all Detection spells require several net hits, and thus a fairly high Force, in order to be effective. You could argue that there's always reagents, but again, I'd point to the in-game stories that lean more in the way of sustained magic being mostly unnoticable.
To my mind, Perceiving Magic is for when a spell is cast and possibly when it takes effect; once the effect is sustained or becomes permanent, not so much.
As for magic having obvious effects, El Diablo is spot on as far as I'm concerned. Some magic alters reality (Shapechange, any of the Shape [Material] spells, Mist Form], but most do not. So while Increase Body makes you more resistant to damage and Increase Strength makes you more ... well, strong... neither actually change your physical form.
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If I am understanding what you are saying, that makes no sense.
If you allow a noticing magic test on any of those sustained spells, you have just defeated the purpose of those spells. (Note I am not arguing a resistance test).
Basically, if I understand you, you are allowing 2 magic tests, one to resist the effects, and one to notice a magical effect....
So someone who casts physical mask at force 10 will ALWAYS be viewed at magical by everyone around them, thus defeating the point of the physical mask spell, which is to appear as someone else - just due to the fact that its a noticable magical effect!
IE: male mage is wanted by corp security, so he casts physical mask (F10) to appear as a female. The guard fails the resistance test so he sees a female. However, he autopasses the noticing magic test, thus knows that the 'female' in question has a magical effect on them....
The resistance test on an illusion spell is your roll to notice it. If you fail your resistance check, you don't notice the illusion. If you pass, you notice the illusion.
And as I said, for illusions, that illusion is the effect the spell has on the world. If you cast a force 10 physical mask, yes, people will notice. People noticing is the point of that spell. They will notice that you look like Tina the actuary, because that's the thing that spell physically does. Because it's force 10, the effect is more real, has more substance to it. In other words, you look more like Tina the actuary.
I never said the roll should be, "Aha! Thar be magic!" But there should be something to notice, especially when you get up on the extreme end. You hulk somebody out with health spells and I may not know if they're magicked or on kami, but there should be a tell on that one that something's happened to their body. Magic that has no effect on the world and only alters numbers in tests is both silly and boring.
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The resistance test on an illusion spell is your roll to notice it. If you fail your resistance check, you don't notice the illusion. If you pass, you notice the illusion.
There are two different rolls being discussed here.
And as I said, for illusions, that illusion is the effect the spell has on the world. If you cast a force 10 physical mask, yes, people will notice.
If you cast in front of them, yes, they get to roll to notice and roll to resist. If you walk into a room with it already cast, they get to roll to resist and nothing else, barring Assensing. That is the entire point. The roll to resist is penalized with higher Force. The roll to notice casting when it happens is made easier with higher Force. The point is, casting an Illusion at high Force while people are watching gives them the easy opportunity to notice the magic occurring paired with a very small chance of them resisting the ultimate effect. If you cast an hour before you see anyone and sustain it, their chance to see through it is very small, and they don't "deserve" to know they've been magicked by making the very-easy-if-Force-is-high roll.
This is quite intentional, given the nature of the Illusion spell type.
But there should be something to notice, especially when you get up on the extreme end.
There is something to notice, if you can Assense. There is no reason mundanes "should" be able to notice a difference.
You hulk somebody out with health spells and I may not know if they're magicked or on kami, but there should be a tell on that one that something's happened to their body.
Again, why, beyond your personal preferences? which aren't supported by the text I might add
I mean sure SOME people might interpret that but it's hardly a bright line rule unlike "Armor makes you glow."
Magic that has no effect on the world and only alters numbers in tests is both silly and boring.
1. well that's just like your opinion man
2. It *does* affect the world. Cast Increase Reflexes and you are effectively running magic Wired Reflexes, with the possible descriptor of jitteriness that comes with that; cast Combat Sense and you might exhibit the sort of hypervigilant perception that is best described by watching how a bird moves. Cast Increase Body and suddenly a guy hit with an AK round shrugs it off instead of going down in a pool of blood.
But that's ultimately fluff, and if a person wants to ignore it or minimize fluff, who ultimately cares outside of people in their gaming group bored by their lack of effort?
This isn't the sort of thing that rules are really meant to set down, aside from the obvious "Armor makes you glow" kinda thing (which, incidentally, is probably because it's an entirely different kind of spell than Combat Sense or Physical Mask, and there are different assumptions about how those spell types work. Or even within the same spell type - it's not like Control Thoughts or Influence logically have visual components to them, and if they did, they'd suck for some of the same reasons Armor sucks, i.e., the obvious "geek the mage" sign in neon they would create).
Frankly, the difference between Automatics 1 and Automatics 6, or the application of Improved Ability, or whether or not someone has vision mods in either ware or contacts, has an effect on the world and how such characters would be expected to act in the context of using those things, but not one that's obvious if someone puts no effort into descriptors (and not everything needs such a descriptor constantly, I'll add); otherwise, it "just" affects numbers, which in the end DOES affect the setting as it effects results, turning otherwise-ordinary people into superhumans with the details and effects they can achieve.
Not sure why this is controversial let alone a big deal; that's not exactly an uncommon thing in RPGs, that effects seem bland if the player doesn't try to make them appear interesting IC.
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As I understand it, magic/mana is invisible to the mundane.
Its effects can sometimes be seen, (The fire from Fireball, the glow from Armor, the change in your look from illusions)
But the Magic (Mana) itself is invisible. So no, you can't see a sustained detection spell.
The perception test is to notice the caster doing the casting. To me its a hold over of the old "Shamanic Mask" from SR1.
You see their concentrated focus, moving lips/fingers, etc etc.
If someone is walking around with a sustained Analyze Truth spell on I don't think your going to know it as a mundane.
Unless they just can't keep a straight face when they pick up on your lying to them.
The only way I can see the perception test being involved with something like Physical Mask would be if you were in some serious physical contact with the Masked person. Then maybe you get a tingle from such close contact like walking through a ward.
If your in a wrestling match with someone with a sustained attribute spell, maybe you get to check for a tingle. But not just from walking past them.
Even then I think those physical contact options would be just that, optional for the GM, I don't see it as how the wording of CRB is intended.
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The Core Rulebook does say :
People have reported feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations they can’t quite put their finger on when magic is in the area
RAW it would be that any magic can be detected but they don't know which spell it is or from where it comes from.
But if you look at the examples :
If you just stepped through a Force 5 ward, the threshold to notice the markings or feel the tingle is 1
Notice that it says when you just stepped through the ward, not right before. So RAI looks like you can only detect a spell that you have seen casted or that you go through (Similar to how you can detect an Astral Form, which makes sense since Spells have an Astral Form).
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The Core Rulebook does say :
People have reported feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations they can’t quite put their finger on when magic is in the area
RAW it would be that any magic can be detected but they don't know which spell it is or from where it comes from.
That's not a rule, that's called "reading crunch into fluff."
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The Core Rulebook does say :
People have reported feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations they can’t quite put their finger on when magic is in the area
RAW it would be that any magic can be detected but they don't know which spell it is or from where it comes from.
But if you look at the examples :
If you just stepped through a Force 5 ward, the threshold to notice the markings or feel the tingle is 1
Notice that it says when you just stepped through the ward, not right before. So RAI looks like you can only detect a spell that you have seen casted or that you go through (Similar to how you can detect an Astral Form, which makes sense since Spells have an Astral Form).
Spells don't generally have Astral Forms, they leave behind Astral Signatures, but don't have "physicality" on the Astral. (Astral) Mana Barriers are of course one of the exceptions because they are specifically there to impede Astral Forms. You get a check to notice passing through an Astral barrier for the same reason you get a check when an Astral Form passes through you, based on Astral Detection pg 314. But I wouldn't necessarily give someone a check to notice walking into the area of a detection spell. I might make that an effect of a glitch on the spellcasting or if a character resists the spell particularly well (several net hits on the defense).
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What he said ^^^
Big difference between walking through a large magical area barrier, and realizing that someone has someone has boosted their willpower when they are standing 10 feet from you.
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Personally I'm one of those GM's who HATES the whole non-magical people notice magic when its cast especially since the rules don't really go into things like force of spell, distance from caster, interfering objects, etc, etc. So I tend to play it as you might get a check to notice the caster casting but you don't get one for magic unless reasons (your a mage, you have a magic sensitive quality I allow in my games) but normal every day people will no more notice magic being cast than they notice the signals to the advertising AR's. Cause and effect noticing the guy sitting in front of a screen mumbling to himself maybe, noticing the spell of sense enemies he's cast no. Of course if he were casting fireball and it blew up the square you were in you'd notice that but that's an obvious effect you don't sense the magic causing it and the guy mumbling to himself may have been talking on his comlink to mall security because he IS a mage who sensed magic being cast when it shouldn't.
I do however like the idea of varying force affecting the visible effects of things that are visible e.g. bigger fireball, brighter armour. Force 1 faint glow barely visible in a dark room, Force 19 solid blue glowing shell lighting up the area in broad daylight and hiding the mage inside.
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Blue Rose, I am going to speak for what I think you are saying. Please correct me if I am wrong. And I hope I am not overstepping any bounds here.
There is something to notice, if you can Assense. There is no reason mundanes "should" be able to notice a difference.
He isn't saying a mundane can tell you have magic per se. See below.
You hulk somebody out with health spells and I may not know if they're magicked or on kami, but there should be a tell on that one that something's happened to their body.
Again, why, beyond your personal preferences? which aren't supported by the text I might add
Let's say a person has an Agility of 4, increased by magic that is being sustained to 4 (8). 8 is actually a physically impossible level of Agility for a human being to achieve in the world as we know it (AFAIK). When you watch this person moving, what do you see? This level of grace and coordination is, simply, unnatural. In the world of Shadowrun, then, where this kind of thing can and does happen, it will look like this person is wired, magicked, possessed, maaaaybe certain kinds of metahuman, maybe a vat baby, etc.
What Blue Rose is saying, is that the magic itself is not visible, but the change that it has caused is subtly apparent. He is not saying make detection of magic two rolls all the time so much as trying to communicate that the initial casting roll isn't the only time when the spell can be recognized as a spell, even without Assensing. The cue is NOT definitive, however. You examine this person's unnatural grace, and you have to come to your own conclusion for WHICH OF THESE THINGS IT IS. Natch, omae?
He is also not saying there is a second roll to spot the illusion in the case of a Mask - just the opposite. He is saying it is even less likely you get a second roll to resist, because the high Force of the spell makes you more "solidly covered/enclosed" in the effect of the spell. Someone "sees" the magic as MORE real and thus harder to differentiate from reality precisely because it is a higher force.
It is not a stretch, then, for something like Increase Strength (when cast at higher levels) to visibly increase muscle mass that is evident externally. It is a Health spell, after all. If Heal can stitch up and seal wounds, then Health spells do have some slight crossover into Manipulation when it comes to body manipulation. But Shapechange is Manipulation. So where is the line? The book doesn't quite say. I'm inclined to think that the muscles would increase in apparent size a little bit when increasing Strength by 3 or 4, but how is someone to know that isn't your natural muscle size if they didn't see the spellcasting? Stretched clothes might give an idea, but I wouldn't say that it stretches enough to, say, ruin Custom Fit, so the change wouldn't be that noticeable. Maybe if someone already knew you very well, or saw you earlier that day. In the end, rules can't cover things like this near as well as individual tables can in my opinion. ^^
Your examples in bullet point two seem to me to be illustrating the point I think he was also trying to make. Like you guys are trying to say the same end result but from two different perspectives, maybe? :)
This isn't the sort of thing that rules are really meant to set down, aside from the obvious "Armor makes you glow" kinda thing (which, incidentally, is probably because it's an entirely different kind of spell than Combat Sense or Physical Mask, and there are different assumptions about how those spell types work. Or even within the same spell type - it's not like Control Thoughts or Influence logically have visual components to them, and if they did, they'd suck for some of the same reasons Armor sucks, i.e., the obvious "geek the mage" sign in neon they would create).
A fair point indeed.
Frankly, the difference between Automatics 1 and Automatics 6, or the application of Improved Ability, or whether or not someone has vision mods in either ware or contacts, has an effect on the world and how such characters would be expected to act in the context of using those things, but not one that's obvious if someone puts no effort into descriptors (and not everything needs such a descriptor constantly, I'll add); otherwise, it "just" affects numbers, which in the end DOES affect the setting as it effects results, turning otherwise-ordinary people into superhumans with the details and effects they can achieve.
Not sure why this is controversial let alone a big deal; that's not exactly an uncommon thing in RPGs, that effects seem bland if the player doesn't try to make them appear interesting IC.
Eeeeeh....but not everyone is good at that sort of thing. It is and it isn't necessary to include descriptors. I'd say it is for the best to have a rulebook section ON description and how to adjudicate what the numbers MEAN (aside from the Skill chapter table about 1-12 ratings, etc), but I don't really need more than that. Some might, though.
What I am unsure of is if Blue Rose is actually trying to advocate a change in how the book should be represented, or rather that he is trying to explicate his subjective viewpoint of how magic works/should work in this setting in a clear way. I'm not seeing his end game just yet. :)
Also, I particularly agree with what you said above that I put in Bold
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The problem I have wiith that Fenix (and I think others might be the same) is that it comes back to what I was saying about cause and effect. Lets take a hypothetical agility spell for example. . .
Situation
Large crowded street with lots of people (See picture below), Tim see's mall security moving on a nearby shoplift thinks they're after him and his friends who were casing a nearby bank and panics, he casts increase agility 4 on the samurai.
Now this is where what you notice comes into play. If you read that "people notice magic because its unnatural" as crunch then EVERYONE nearby should get a roll to sense Tim's magic. Even if you ignore the issues of range, line of sight etc that's a huge number of people all making checks to see if they notice the magic. Not Sarah suddenly getting a lot more graceful and fluid which could be her activating wired reflexes or the like, they may not even see her its just the magic the sense. So you potentially have a lot of people with no magical ability suddenly getting chills, feelings of dread, etc because magic was cast nearby. They don't see the mage he's behind them, they don't hear the mage their chatting on a cellphone, they don't see the magics effect that's on one girl who's also behind them but they feel something unnatural because they passed their roll. On the other hand if you ignore that fluff then only those looking at Sarah would even get a check to realize somethings happened and that something could be a purely physical activation of wired reflexes, if they don't see her suddenly change her gate then maybe she's just one of those people who are naturally insanely graceful.
Then of course you have the issues of faireness a decker can do all sorts of things in the matrix but if your not in at least AR you'll only see effects you don't get feelings of dread because of the unnatural wireless transmissions he's sending out so why should you get it with magic which is a lot more natural when you aren't magically sensitive in the first place? Decker hacks your comlink and dips into your bank accounts your not going to innately sense something wifi related is going on (unless your a technomancer) so why should you suddenly get a roll to sense a mage has cast clairvoyance on a nearby police station?
As for magic making the body muscles increase that's purely personal taste I for instance prefer something like Buffy the Vampire slayer where the magically endowed strength has no physical manifestation at all and a cute, little girl (teenager so girl is applicable) has the strength to lift a 6'2 football player off the ground and suspend him one handed in mid-air. Making her both bait and trap in one person.
(https://edelacruzblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/dsc_29051.jpg)
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Now this is where what you notice comes into play. If you read that "people notice magic because its unnatural" as crunch then EVERYONE nearby should get a roll to sense Tim's magic. Even if you ignore the issues of range, line of sight etc that's a huge number of people all making checks to see if they notice the magic. Not Sarah suddenly getting a lot more graceful and fluid which could be her activating wired reflexes or the like, they may not even see her its just the magic the sense. So you potentially have a lot of people with no magical ability suddenly getting chills, feelings of dread, etc because magic was cast nearby. They don't see the mage he's behind them, they don't hear the mage their chatting on a cellphone, they don't see the magics effect that's on one girl who's also behind them but they feel something unnatural because they passed their roll. On the other hand if you ignore that fluff then only those looking at Sarah would even get a check to realize somethings happened and that something could be a purely physical activation of wired reflexes, if they don't see her suddenly change her gate then maybe she's just one of those people who are naturally insanely graceful.
Hmm. Part of the point, though, is that no one actually can have Agility 8 if they are a human being outside of augmentations - max is 6 (or sometimes 7). So when someone sees that, it looks actively unnatural. So if this spell was not triggered in front of people, which means by the rules there is no Noticing Magic roll, then wouldn't people be entitled to look at this literally unnatural Agility and think "Huh, this person is not normal? Are they Augmented? Or maybe Awakened?" They don't get to Notice Magic, but they get to notice that something is going on, with maybe some kind of roll called for by the GM. You dig?
If we do accept that magic is some sort of unnatural manifestation that can be sensed like astral forms passing through someone, we may need to question Essence and Magic itself. Magic is supposed to be natural, formed by the Gaiasphere and the presence of life. That is why there isn't any in space. Therefore, I don't see why it would feel that way in fluff. So I figure Noticing Magic is seeing flashes of light or some other physical manifestation of a spell. For a Buffy-esque character being buffed, I would picture a subtle shockwave from the caster rolling out to a half meter, and at Force 10 it physically moves small things and sends dust up into the air. No muscle bulge or anything, but some kind of visible and obvious magic. If it is instead unnatural, then things would bog indeed bog down a great deal in game.
Then of course you have the issues of faireness a decker can do all sorts of things in the matrix but if your not in at least AR you'll only see effects you don't get feelings of dread because of the unnatural wireless transmissions he's sending out so why should you get it with magic which is a lot more natural when you aren't magically sensitive in the first place? Decker hacks your comlink and dips into your bank accounts your not going to innately sense something wifi related is going on (unless your a technomancer) so why should you suddenly get a roll to sense a mage has cast clairvoyance on a nearby police station?
I agree. I don't think there should be some kind of dread or something. That's weird, if you ask me. No, I figure there would be something noticeable with a subtlety or lack thereof appropriate to the spell and the Force. I'm not certain where this is coming from, though - is this roll to notice magic when you weren't looking at the spellcaster something I seem to have implied? I didn't mean to. I certainly don't think that is true O_o
BTW this is my Noticing Magic house rules:
"Noticing Magic: Stronger magic is easier to spot. But why is higher Force easier to spot? Magic strength is not Force alone. And why would a Force 6 Physical Barrier actually be harder to spot than a Force 7 Armor spell? The Physical Barrier creates a much larger effect that expands into much more of the world, and these two have the same Drain Value at that Force. Further, why is this rule only for spells? And why do mundanes and the Awakened have the same chance to notice it (More, actually, for the mundanes that bought higher Perception with their Karma that didn’t go into magic skills).
So instead, I make the Threshold of the roll to Notice Magic always 5, using Intuition + Magic-Based Skill (So people trained in Spellcasting as an Active AND/OR a Knowledge skill can use it to detect spells; similar deal for Conjuring, Alchemy, Spirit Powers, etc). However, the dice pool has a bonus equal to the Drain Value of the spell, and has a +6 bonus for Extended Area spells, +3 bonus for Area spells, Nix for LOS spells, -3 for Touch, and -6 for Self Only spells. This means high Force spells with Reagents used to control it are more detectable than lower Force spells, and it also means that a low Force spell with a high limit is very subtle and hard to spot. For spirits or alchemy-creation or ritual spells, the Force is the bonus."
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Ok let me take your points in order I apologise for the lack of quoting my laptops' not good at more than basic typing especially on this site, it took me 10 minutes to post this after typing it . . .
superhuman agility
To avoid being difficult we'lll work with max human + max augment. Your noticing someone with agility 10 as amazingly graceful/odd I have no problems with. that's a purely physical i.e. real world effect that can be seen and reacted too. Knowing that its magic or suspecting because you felt a feeling of dread beforehand as opposed to them merely having amazing cyberware is what I object to. Again cause and effect you can see the effect but that doesn't automatically mean you know the cause it could be magic, it could be cyberware, it could (if you didn't see them before) being something that looks human but isn't such as an elf with max agility/human looking and exceptional attribute agility (unlikely but that is an agility of 8 on someone who looks human). From what I can see by your comments here we're in agreement on that you can see the effect and suspect something is odd but there's other explanations than magic.
Magic is unnatural
I agree it seems weird that one bit of fluff refers to it as unnatural and others as a natural result of life. We agree you can notice effects on some spells where we differ is that you seem to feel they should occur for all spells and I don't e.g. str boost you give it a shockwave whereas I wouldn't there is literally no outside indication of that strength till the person does something that should be impossible e.g. lifting something heavy. Just becuase its force 10 doesn't mean (for me) that its visible in the physical world. To any mage or person with magic sensativity it'd be obvious but to a normal, everyday person it isn't.
Kind of Dread
Not really aimed specifically at you but in other threads there have been people who treat the single line of fluff with no mechanics about magic causing feelings of dread etc because of its unnatural nature as gospel and that any magic regardless of force, use, situation causes that in the people around which was what i was referring to. For example casting clairvoyance in the pic I linked above would for them give all those people a roll to feel a sense of dread, chills, etc. They often go on to say that they wouldn't "necessarily" know it was magic causing the sensation but they would have it. Like I mentioned in my games there are some spells that have obvious effects anyone can see e.g. fireball, some that the subject can feel e.g. a person under a spell increasing agility would find physical co-ordination easier and if they were boosted above their races normal maximum someone might notice that and spells no one should notice UNLESS they are a mage or magically sensative (a quality I allow in my games for non-mages to sense magic going on around them if they wish) such as clairvoyance.
Magic Rules
Pretty much as per the book but only for mages or people who take the quality above.
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We are in agreement on most points. However:
Kind of Dread
Not really aimed specifically at you but in other threads there have been people who treat the single line of fluff with no mechanics about magic causing feelings of dread etc because of its unnatural nature as gospel and that any magic regardless of force, use, situation causes that in the people around which was what i was referring to. For example casting clairvoyance in the pic I linked above would for them give all those people a roll to feel a sense of dread, chills, etc. They often go on to say that they wouldn't "necessarily" know it was magic causing the sensation but they would have it. Like I mentioned in my games there are some spells that have obvious effects anyone can see e.g. fireball, some that the subject can feel e.g. a person under a spell increasing agility would find physical co-ordination easier and if they were boosted above their races normal maximum someone might notice that and spells no one should notice UNLESS they are a mage or magically sensative (a quality I allow in my games for non-mages to sense magic going on around them if they wish) such as clairvoyance.
This is against the rules. If a spell was cast, there is a Noticing Magic roll allowed, always. It is the responsibility of the GM and the group to make that roll make sense and fit the setting. This roll is allowed at the moment of casting provided the spellcaster can be seen/is being looked at. It can be described as tiny flares of nearly unnoticeable light or something similarly simple (dependent, of course, on the threshold), but there is something. Shadowrun, by the rules, has a magic system wherein high concentrations of mana warp physical space. This is also further supported by those domains of mana wherein you can step into astral space from the physical world - I forget what they are called. Where physical and astral space are one. These physically apparent manifestations makes sense, really. If magic is natural, then it is part of the normal world. Not separated from it. When magic can only be detected by those sensitive to magic, then that is a world where magic is subtle. Shadowrun isn't one of those worlds. That sort of magic also implies it is unnatural or outside the world, aka artificial.
In shadowrun, magic is natural. That is why there are paracritters. Magic is born into people in this world, but that doesn't mean that those without it can feel it. There should be no "feeling of dread" with Noticing Magic, but rather some indication that something happened that fits the fluff of the situation. Glowing eyes is a common one I use, and that one is supported by official artwork of the Combat Mage in SR4 who is casting what might be a manabolt. If it is a manabolt, the Force must be high because that is a spell that is normally not visible. So a manabolt may look like a bolt flying from the caster, but it then disappears from sight as it leaves the mages aura. There is no dodge with such spells for a reason.
So if someone casts invisibility in front of you, there is a Noticing Magic roll. This lets you see that something happened. It doesn't let you know where they are or what they look like any better. And if they disappear in front of you, odds are you can figure out what happened without the Noticing Magic roll. In order to not have this Noticing Magic effect, you would need to house rule it in your home games. And that's OK. I can certainly see a world wherein that is true. It isn't much of a difference from Shadowrun. But it is different.
Also, note that the threshold is Force based up to TEN. I mean, TEN! Most people will see absolutely nothing when you cast an Illusion - why cast an Illusion higher than Force 6? The enemies have to get more hits than you. Most of the time this will be a non issue, which means most of the time your idea that it is subtle/invisible is fairly accurate. Invisibility spells and Detection spells are subtle, often with thresholds of 4 to 6 for Noticing Magic. That is the point of these spells, really. They aren't flashy, but they make stuff happen nonetheless.
Oh, and I don't recall if it is in this edition, but in prior editions Awakened people got +2 to this roll to Notice Magic IIRC.
Magic Rules
Pretty much as per the book but only for mages or people who take the quality above.
This sounds like a house rule. Is that what you are trying to say, that you house rule this part of the magic system? Or are you saying that you read that part of the book as only applicable to magic users?
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I'm with the group that thinks you don't get a roll for spells that are active, only to spot someone casting.
BTW this is my Noticing Magic house rules:
"Noticing Magic: Stronger magic is easier to spot. But why is higher Force easier to spot? Magic strength is not Force alone. And why would a Force 6 Physical Barrier actually be harder to spot than a Force 7 Armor spell? The Physical Barrier creates a much larger effect that expands into much more of the world, and these two have the same Drain Value at that Force. Further, why is this rule only for spells? And why do mundanes and the Awakened have the same chance to notice it (More, actually, for the mundanes that bought higher Perception with their Karma that didn’t go into magic skills).
So instead, I make the Threshold of the roll to Notice Magic always 5, using Intuition + Magic-Based Skill (So people trained in Spellcasting as an Active AND/OR a Knowledge skill can use it to detect spells; similar deal for Conjuring, Alchemy, Spirit Powers, etc). However, the dice pool has a bonus equal to the Drain Value of the spell, and has a +6 bonus for Extended Area spells, +3 bonus for Area spells, Nix for LOS spells, -3 for Touch, and -6 for Self Only spells. This means high Force spells with Reagents used to control it are more detectable than lower Force spells, and it also means that a low Force spell with a high limit is very subtle and hard to spot. For spirits or alchemy-creation or ritual spells, the Force is the bonus."
This sounds terrible. Looking at my own character if I were to cast a Force 6 Detect Enemies, Extended spell, anyone would get Intuition + Magic Skill + 12 dice to spot it. So a mage would get over 20 dice and just buying successes will let him spot it every time.
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@Fenix Wolfheart
I think you misunderstood my noticing magic roll attitude, I was talking about a lot of things so it may not have been clear. I do allow someone to notice a spell being cast its just that you'll be noticing the hand geastures, verbal comments, effect of the spell. If your facing away from them you don't get one then to sense a feeling of dread. That is if you can see the mage casting you get a chance to notice the mage casting even if you aren't looking but it wont be something like glowing eyes, a pulse of energy. There's enough subtle magic (invisibility, illusions, sense X) where I feel allowing a role just because its magic would hit magic with an even bigger nerf bat than just going from 4th to 5th has and render a lot of spells useless. Yes magic can have an effect on the physical world but the simple mana = physical effec is usually far beyond anything a mage is likely to be throwing around and their actually channeling said mana into an effect already. Making someone invisible, creating a fireball, crafting an illusion. That is the effect on the physical world not having their eyes glow or the like.
With regards to magic rules yes that is a houserule. Normally someone can only see a spell being cast as above when its in effect or if its cast in a way they wouldn't see e.g. you duck round a corner so your out of sight and cast insivibility then they will not get a check. The two exceptions are other mages and people who take the "magic sensative quality" (currently priced at 13 karma). The quality functions the same as the sensing metamagic with the addition your allowed a reactive roll to notice magic being cast or targeted on you. That is if someone you can't see e.g. your facing in a different direction when a mage casts invisibility the GM makes a hidden observe in detail perception test and if you succeed they say you sense x (depending on how you want your magic sense to work e.g. pricklin hairs on the neck). Same if someone casts clairvoyance targeted on you you'll sense it even if you don't know what it is. Obviously if you come into range of a sustained spell you don't get this check
Now this is different to the powers description (the magciain can't use this ability to sense astral forms, spells, mana barriers, spirits or foci). However I don't feel its to big of a change to adjust that line to "The magciian can't use this ability to sense astral forms, spells that are being sustained, mana barriers, spirits or foci". Essentially it gives someone the ability to sense (notice) if a spell is being cast along with the other major natural effects (background count, aspect, etc) because your a mage who's trained their magical senses (initiation + sensing metamagic) or your naturally sensative to mana (Magic Sensative quality). All the normal every day person on the street can see someone waving their hands and chanting or a physical effect like that person suddenly becoming invisible.
I priced magic sensative at 13 because that's the minimum value for initiation so for a mage its only worth taking the quality if they want to spend their free metamagics on something else and it wont get them the max magic increases or other benefits from an actual initition.
@Overbyte
I have noticed a weird tendency for people to nerf/hate magic for its effects but not bat an eye if a technology method gives the same bonus. "Your magic fireball hits everything in X area for Y damge that's overpowered. Yeah my fusion grenades do the same thing so what?"
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@Overbyte
I have noticed a weird tendency for people to nerf/hate magic for its effects but not bat an eye if a technology method gives the same bonus. "Your magic fireball hits everything in X area for Y damge that's overpowered. Yeah my fusion grenades do the same thing so what?"
I'm not sure what your point is. I am saying that my Detection spell becomes incredibly obvious to everyone under his rules. Not that a Fireball is more powerful than a hand grenade.
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I'm with the group that thinks you don't get a roll for spells that are active, only to spot someone casting.
BTW this is my Noticing Magic house rules:
"Noticing Magic: Stronger magic is easier to spot. But why is higher Force easier to spot? Magic strength is not Force alone. And why would a Force 6 Physical Barrier actually be harder to spot than a Force 7 Armor spell? The Physical Barrier creates a much larger effect that expands into much more of the world, and these two have the same Drain Value at that Force. Further, why is this rule only for spells? And why do mundanes and the Awakened have the same chance to notice it (More, actually, for the mundanes that bought higher Perception with their Karma that didn’t go into magic skills).
So instead, I make the Threshold of the roll to Notice Magic always 5, using Intuition + Magic-Based Skill (So people trained in Spellcasting as an Active AND/OR a Knowledge skill can use it to detect spells; similar deal for Conjuring, Alchemy, Spirit Powers, etc). However, the dice pool has a bonus equal to the Drain Value of the spell, and has a +6 bonus for Extended Area spells, +3 bonus for Area spells, Nix for LOS spells, -3 for Touch, and -6 for Self Only spells. This means high Force spells with Reagents used to control it are more detectable than lower Force spells, and it also means that a low Force spell with a high limit is very subtle and hard to spot. For spirits or alchemy-creation or ritual spells, the Force is the bonus."
This sounds terrible. Looking at my own character if I were to cast a Force 6 Detect Enemies, Extended spell, anyone would get Intuition + Magic Skill + 12 dice to spot it. So a mage would get over 20 dice and just buying successes will let him spot it every time.
I would indeed expect to easily notice such a spell being cast in front of me if I am a mage, buying hits if allowed. However, if you are casting that spell in front of me, does it matter if I see it? I mean, why cast such a spell in front of the opposing mage?
Anyway, yes, such a huge spell I would describe as a net flying from you and fading as it leaves your aura. Anyone looking directly at you I would have a decent roll to notice it. You don't have to like my way of doing things =P
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@Fenix Wolfheart
I think you misunderstood my noticing magic roll attitude, I was talking about a lot of things so it may not have been clear. I do allow someone to notice a spell being cast its just that you'll be noticing the hand geastures, verbal comments, effect of the spell. If your facing away from them you don't get one then to sense a feeling of dread. That is if you can see the mage casting you get a chance to notice the mage casting even if you aren't looking but it wont be something like glowing eyes, a pulse of energy. There's enough subtle magic (invisibility, illusions, sense X) where I feel allowing a role just because its magic would hit magic with an even bigger nerf bat than just going from 4th to 5th has and render a lot of spells useless. Yes magic can have an effect on the physical world but the simple mana = physical effec is usually far beyond anything a mage is likely to be throwing around and their actually channeling said mana into an effect already. Making someone invisible, creating a fireball, crafting an illusion. That is the effect on the physical world not having their eyes glow or the like.
I don't think I misunderstood. It still looks like you are saying what I thought you were saying. I just don't agree with some of your views, such as glowing eyes not being considered a physical effect on the world as a result of the spell. We don't have to agree on how things manifest, though. The rules say one thing, and we both disagree with how it should work, so we have our respective house rules. I prefer magic to be a bit flashier with big spells and more subtle with smaller ones, and for Force to be more of a tactical choice, so I went with my own rules I posted.
Oh, and part of the point of my rules is that our table uses Create-a-spell rules from Fourth Edition with some slight modifications to fit Fifth. So Limited versions of spells have become more popular in my games, which is just exactly what I was trying to encourage. Making magic more obvious is a nerf in a manner of speaking, but only if you are already looking at the mage. Mages have to be even more careful, even more subtle, at my table. Its exactly the balance my group appreciates. I've house rules Essence, too, in a manner that favors spending karma on base Attributes and allows for Samurai builds to shine better and encourages cyber/magic hybridization. My house rules work better than may be at first apparent because of interactions with other house rules. So I wouldn't recommend to anyone to just adopt them ^^
With regards to magic rules yes that is a houserule. Normally someone can only see a spell being cast as above when its in effect or if its cast in a way they wouldn't see e.g. you duck round a corner so your out of sight and cast insivibility then they will not get a check. The two exceptions are other mages and people who take the "magic sensative quality" (currently priced at 13 karma). The quality functions the same as the sensing metamagic with the addition your allowed a reactive roll to notice magic being cast or targeted on you. That is if someone you can't see e.g. your facing in a different direction when a mage casts invisibility the GM makes a hidden observe in detail perception test and if you succeed they say you sense x (depending on how you want your magic sense to work e.g. pricklin hairs on the neck). Same if someone casts clairvoyance targeted on you you'll sense it even if you don't know what it is. Obviously if you come into range of a sustained spell you don't get this check
Now this is different to the powers description (the magciain can't use this ability to sense astral forms, spells, mana barriers, spirits or foci). However I don't feel its to big of a change to adjust that line to "The magciian can't use this ability to sense astral forms, spells that are being sustained, mana barriers, spirits or foci". Essentially it gives someone the ability to sense (notice) if a spell is being cast along with the other major natural effects (background count, aspect, etc) because your a mage who's trained their magical senses (initiation + sensing metamagic) or your naturally sensative to mana (Magic Sensative quality). All the normal every day person on the street can see someone waving their hands and chanting or a physical effect like that person suddenly becoming invisible.
I priced magic sensative at 13 because that's the minimum value for initiation so for a mage its only worth taking the quality if they want to spend their free metamagics on something else and it wont get them the max magic increases or other benefits from an actual initition.
Hey, whatever works for you. I say go nuts, especially if your table likes it! :)
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I'm with the group that thinks you don't get a roll for spells that are active, only to spot someone casting.
This sounds terrible. Looking at my own character if I were to cast a Force 6 Detect Enemies, Extended spell, anyone would get Intuition + Magic Skill + 12 dice to spot it. So a mage would get over 20 dice and just buying successes will let him spot it every time.
I would indeed expect to easily notice such a spell being cast in front of me if I am a mage, buying hits if allowed. However, if you are casting that spell in front of me, does it matter if I see it? I mean, why cast such a spell in front of the opposing mage?
Anyway, yes, such a huge spell I would describe as a net flying from you and fading as it leaves your aura. Anyone looking directly at you I would have a decent roll to notice it. You don't have to like my way of doing things =P
Ah.. since the thread is about "sustained spells already cast beforehand" my assumption was your rule applied to that. You should DEFINITELY notice a mage casting a huge spell right in front of you. I'm talking about noticing the EFFECT not the casting. Which I don't think you should. If I cast detect enemies to figure out where the enemies are, its not really great if I just alerted to all of them to my presence when they don't know I'm there. :)
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@Overbyte
No point really just a general musing that it seems odd a lot of people go out of their way to nerf/limit magic but not do the same with technology. To use a recent example in this thread take Fenix's big net coming out of you for a detection spell but no visible effects for a decker hacking into cameras to achieve the same result i.e. identifying enemy locations.
@All
Fair enough different people like different things, as long as your having fun that's the important thing.
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Sidenotice @ Fenix Post on Page 2
>>>>Hmm. Part of the point, though, is that no one actually can have Agility 8 if they are a human being outside of augmentations - max is 6 (or sometimes 7).
Sorry but that's wrong.
AGI 8 (or even 9) is naturally Possible for a Human With Exceptional Attribute (pos Qual), genetic optimisation (Bioware)
and even Metagenetic Advantage (Surge). It is possible to get a NATURAL AGI (or any other Attribute) of 8 (with Surge 9)
Which than can be raised with 'ware to 8(12) or even 9(13)
I guess you're setting your standards to low ;)
with a higher Dance
Medicineman
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Base agility sure but I wouldn't personally call it natural if you need bioware or human if their surging. Subspecies maybe but not really human.
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that's why I put the 3rd option (Surge) in Brackets, but Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimisation are (imO) well in the realm/range of natural Ability .
He who dances right now to the Hymn of Akira Ifukube
Medicineman
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that's why I put the 3rd option (Surge) in Brackets, but Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimisation are (imO) well in the realm/range of natural Ability .
He who dances right now to the Hymn of Akira Ifukube
Medicineman
I'm not sure that's "well within" the range of natural ability. I'm assuming you're meaning the option to get the effects of geneware as a quality. Getting all the way up to 8 is definitely on the fringe/edge. It's possible to get it naturally, but definitely highly unlikely.
The original point was the idea of being able to notice someone augmented up to 8 as comparable to noticing it as magical or inhuman. It doesn't seem out of the question to say that getting up to an 8 (no matter the method) would appear super-humanly agile. Having a genetic abnormality can make you super-humanly fast even if it is natural.
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Sidenotice @ Fenix Post on Page 2
>>>>Hmm. Part of the point, though, is that no one actually can have Agility 8 if they are a human being outside of augmentations - max is 6 (or sometimes 7).
Sorry but that's wrong.
AGI 8 (or even 9) is naturally Possible for a Human With Exceptional Attribute (pos Qual), genetic optimisation (Bioware)
and even Metagenetic Advantage (Surge). It is possible to get a NATURAL AGI (or any other Attribute) of 8 (with Surge 9)
Which than can be raised with 'ware to 8(12) or even 9(13)
I guess you're setting your standards to low ;)
with a higher Dance
Medicineman
Nah, just a difference in definitions. Genetic optimization is in the class I refer to as augmentations, and SURGE is not in the class I refer to as "normal human". Hence, unagumented normal human in my parlance refers to an individual whos maximum is exactly 6 or exactly 7.
I agree that this was not clear in what I actually said above.
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@Overbyte
No point really just a general musing that it seems odd a lot of people go out of their way to nerf/limit magic but not do the same with technology. To use a recent example in this thread take Fenix's big net coming out of you for a detection spell but no visible effects for a decker hacking into cameras to achieve the same result i.e. identifying enemy locations.
@All
Fair enough different people like different things, as long as your having fun that's the important thing.
Nah, decker is just as visible to all those with Matrix Perception. Arguably more visible - you get to see if your on the same section of grid or in the same node in my rules. Similarly, if a decker hacks a camera there may be a roll to notice its behavior alteration in meat space. When there is a physical manifestation, there is a possible physical notice check. When there isn't, there is a specialized notice check appropriate to the circumstances. Basically, I just justify the rules, then take them a step further in continuance of my table's playstyle.
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Nah, decker is just as visible to all those with Matrix Perception. Arguably more visible - you get to see if your on the same section of grid or in the same node in my rules. Similarly, if a decker hacks a camera there may be a roll to notice its behavior alteration in meat space. When there is a physical manifestation, there is a possible physical notice check. When there isn't, there is a specialized notice check appropriate to the circumstances. Basically, I just justify the rules, then take them a step further in continuance of my table's playstyle.
Note the part I bolded. Decking is visible to those with "matrix perception" not everyone. Sure in the shadowrun world that's pretty much everyone but someone without something to give them that wont see a single thing. That's my point to see a decker working you need to be able to perceive the matrix (glasses, implanted comlink, contacts, technomancer, etc). Whatever the means you need that. RAW you don't need "magic perception" to notice someone casting a spell you just need to be in the general area. On top of which its badly written and has a huge amount of important information just left off.
Hence my ruling you can't see magic being cast without "magic perception" either by being a mage, mystic adept, adpet (with astral perception) or taking the quality (available to everyone). So while not everyone can notice a spell being cast e.g. normal person facing away anyone potentially can sense/see/smell/? it IF they invest the karma resources to take that feat or if your an NPC have the GM give it to you.
I'm not saying decking can't be detected I'm asking that magic receive the same courtesy i.e. you can't notice matrix actions without a means of accessing the matrix so you shouldn't be able to notice magic actions (barring obvious effects/causes) without a similar means of accessing magic.+