[Overbyte]

I'm with the group that thinks you don't get a roll for spells that are active, only to spot someone casting.

BTW this is my Noticing Magic house rules:
"Noticing Magic: Stronger magic is easier to spot. But why is higher Force easier to spot? Magic strength is not Force alone. And why would a Force 6 Physical Barrier actually be harder to spot than a Force 7 Armor spell? The Physical Barrier creates a much larger effect that expands into much more of the world, and these two have the same Drain Value at that Force. Further, why is this rule only for spells? And why do mundanes and the Awakened have the same chance to notice it (More, actually, for the mundanes that bought higher Perception with their Karma that didn’t go into magic skills).
So instead, I make the Threshold of the roll to Notice Magic always 5, using Intuition + Magic-Based Skill (So people trained in Spellcasting as an Active AND/OR a Knowledge skill can use it to detect spells; similar deal for Conjuring, Alchemy, Spirit Powers, etc). However, the dice pool has a bonus equal to the Drain Value of the spell, and has a +6 bonus for Extended Area spells, +3 bonus for Area spells, Nix for LOS spells, -3 for Touch, and -6 for Self Only spells. This means high Force spells with Reagents used to control it are more detectable than lower Force spells, and it also means that a low Force spell with a high limit is very subtle and hard to spot. For spirits or alchemy-creation or ritual spells, the Force is the bonus."

This sounds terrible. Looking at my own character if I were to cast a Force 6 Detect Enemies, Extended spell,  anyone would get Intuition + Magic Skill + 12 dice to spot it. So a mage would get over 20 dice and just buying successes will let him spot it every time.

[Senko]

@Fenix Wolfheart
I think you misunderstood my noticing magic roll attitude, I was talking about a lot of things so it may not have been clear. I do allow someone to notice a spell being cast its just that you'll be noticing the hand geastures, verbal comments, effect of the spell. If your facing away from them you don't get one then to sense a feeling of dread. That is if you can see the mage casting you get a chance to notice the mage casting even if you aren't looking but it wont be something like glowing eyes, a pulse of energy. There's enough subtle magic (invisibility, illusions, sense X) where I feel allowing a role just because its magic would hit magic with an even bigger nerf bat than just going from 4th to 5th has and render a lot of spells useless. Yes magic can have an effect on the physical world but the simple mana = physical effec is usually far beyond anything a mage is likely to be throwing around and their actually channeling said mana into an effect already. Making someone invisible, creating a fireball, crafting an illusion. That is the effect on the physical world not having their eyes glow or the like.

With regards to magic rules yes that is a houserule. Normally someone can only see a spell being cast as above when its in effect or if its cast in a way they wouldn't see e.g. you duck round a corner so your out of sight and cast insivibility then they will not get a check. The two exceptions are other mages and people who take the "magic sensative quality" (currently priced at 13 karma). The quality functions the same as the sensing metamagic with the addition your allowed a reactive roll to notice magic being cast or targeted on you. That is if someone you can't see e.g. your facing in a different direction when a  mage casts invisibility the GM makes a hidden observe in detail perception test and if you succeed they say you sense x (depending on how you want your magic sense to work e.g. pricklin hairs on the neck). Same if someone casts clairvoyance targeted on you you'll sense it even if you don't know what it is. Obviously if you come into range of a sustained spell you don't get this check

Now this is different to the powers description (the magciain can't use this ability to sense astral forms, spells, mana barriers, spirits or foci). However I don't feel its to big of a change to adjust that line to "The magciian can't use this ability to sense astral forms, spells that are being sustained, mana barriers, spirits or foci". Essentially it gives someone the ability to sense (notice) if a spell is being cast along with the other major natural effects (background count, aspect, etc) because your a mage who's trained their magical senses (initiation + sensing metamagic) or your naturally sensative to mana (Magic Sensative quality). All the normal every day person on the street can see someone waving their hands and chanting or a physical effect like that person suddenly becoming invisible.

I priced magic sensative at 13 because that's the minimum value for initiation so for a mage its only worth taking the quality if they want to spend their free metamagics on something else and it wont get them the max magic increases or other benefits from an actual initition.

@Overbyte
I have noticed a weird tendency for people to nerf/hate magic for its effects but not bat an eye if a technology method gives the same bonus. "Your magic fireball hits everything in X area for Y damge that's overpowered. Yeah my fusion grenades do the same thing so what?"

[Overbyte]

@Overbyte
I have noticed a weird tendency for people to nerf/hate magic for its effects but not bat an eye if a technology method gives the same bonus. "Your magic fireball hits everything in X area for Y damge that's overpowered. Yeah my fusion grenades do the same thing so what?"

I'm not sure what your point is. I am saying that my Detection spell becomes incredibly obvious to everyone under his rules. Not that a Fireball is more powerful than a hand grenade.

[Fenix Wulfheart]

I'm with the group that thinks you don't get a roll for spells that are active, only to spot someone casting.

BTW this is my Noticing Magic house rules:
"Noticing Magic: Stronger magic is easier to spot. But why is higher Force easier to spot? Magic strength is not Force alone. And why would a Force 6 Physical Barrier actually be harder to spot than a Force 7 Armor spell? The Physical Barrier creates a much larger effect that expands into much more of the world, and these two have the same Drain Value at that Force. Further, why is this rule only for spells? And why do mundanes and the Awakened have the same chance to notice it (More, actually, for the mundanes that bought higher Perception with their Karma that didn’t go into magic skills).
So instead, I make the Threshold of the roll to Notice Magic always 5, using Intuition + Magic-Based Skill (So people trained in Spellcasting as an Active AND/OR a Knowledge skill can use it to detect spells; similar deal for Conjuring, Alchemy, Spirit Powers, etc). However, the dice pool has a bonus equal to the Drain Value of the spell, and has a +6 bonus for Extended Area spells, +3 bonus for Area spells, Nix for LOS spells, -3 for Touch, and -6 for Self Only spells. This means high Force spells with Reagents used to control it are more detectable than lower Force spells, and it also means that a low Force spell with a high limit is very subtle and hard to spot. For spirits or alchemy-creation or ritual spells, the Force is the bonus."

This sounds terrible. Looking at my own character if I were to cast a Force 6 Detect Enemies, Extended spell,  anyone would get Intuition + Magic Skill + 12 dice to spot it. So a mage would get over 20 dice and just buying successes will let him spot it every time.

I would indeed expect to easily notice such a spell being cast in front of me if I am a mage, buying hits if allowed. However, if you are casting that spell in front of me, does it matter if I see it? I mean, why cast such a spell in front of the opposing mage?

Anyway, yes, such a huge spell I would describe as a net flying from you and fading as it leaves your aura. Anyone looking directly at you I would have a decent roll to notice it. You don't have to like my way of doing things =P

[Fenix Wulfheart]

@Fenix Wolfheart
I think you misunderstood my noticing magic roll attitude, I was talking about a lot of things so it may not have been clear. I do allow someone to notice a spell being cast its just that you'll be noticing the hand geastures, verbal comments, effect of the spell. If your facing away from them you don't get one then to sense a feeling of dread. That is if you can see the mage casting you get a chance to notice the mage casting even if you aren't looking but it wont be something like glowing eyes, a pulse of energy. There's enough subtle magic (invisibility, illusions, sense X) where I feel allowing a role just because its magic would hit magic with an even bigger nerf bat than just going from 4th to 5th has and render a lot of spells useless. Yes magic can have an effect on the physical world but the simple mana = physical effec is usually far beyond anything a mage is likely to be throwing around and their actually channeling said mana into an effect already. Making someone invisible, creating a fireball, crafting an illusion. That is the effect on the physical world not having their eyes glow or the like.

I don't think I misunderstood. It still looks like you are saying what I thought you were saying. I just don't agree with some of your views, such as glowing eyes not being considered a physical effect on the world as a result of the spell. We don't have to agree on how things manifest, though. The rules say one thing, and we both disagree with how it should work, so we have our respective house rules. I prefer magic to be a bit flashier with big spells and more subtle with smaller ones, and for Force to be more of a tactical choice, so I went with my own rules I posted.

Oh, and part of the point of my rules is that our table uses Create-a-spell rules from Fourth Edition with some slight modifications to fit Fifth. So Limited versions of spells have become more popular in my games, which is just exactly what I was trying to encourage. Making magic more obvious is a nerf in a manner of speaking, but only if you are already looking at the mage. Mages have to be even more careful, even more subtle, at my table. Its exactly the balance my group appreciates. I've house rules Essence, too, in a manner that favors spending karma on base Attributes and allows for Samurai builds to shine better and encourages cyber/magic hybridization. My house rules work better than may be at first apparent because of interactions with other house rules. So I wouldn't recommend to anyone to just adopt them ^^

With regards to magic rules yes that is a houserule. Normally someone can only see a spell being cast as above when its in effect or if its cast in a way they wouldn't see e.g. you duck round a corner so your out of sight and cast insivibility then they will not get a check. The two exceptions are other mages and people who take the "magic sensative quality" (currently priced at 13 karma). The quality functions the same as the sensing metamagic with the addition your allowed a reactive roll to notice magic being cast or targeted on you. That is if someone you can't see e.g. your facing in a different direction when a  mage casts invisibility the GM makes a hidden observe in detail perception test and if you succeed they say you sense x (depending on how you want your magic sense to work e.g. pricklin hairs on the neck). Same if someone casts clairvoyance targeted on you you'll sense it even if you don't know what it is. Obviously if you come into range of a sustained spell you don't get this check

Now this is different to the powers description (the magciain can't use this ability to sense astral forms, spells, mana barriers, spirits or foci). However I don't feel its to big of a change to adjust that line to "The magciian can't use this ability to sense astral forms, spells that are being sustained, mana barriers, spirits or foci". Essentially it gives someone the ability to sense (notice) if a spell is being cast along with the other major natural effects (background count, aspect, etc) because your a mage who's trained their magical senses (initiation + sensing metamagic) or your naturally sensative to mana (Magic Sensative quality). All the normal every day person on the street can see someone waving their hands and chanting or a physical effect like that person suddenly becoming invisible.

I priced magic sensative at 13 because that's the minimum value for initiation so for a mage its only worth taking the quality if they want to spend their free metamagics on something else and it wont get them the max magic increases or other benefits from an actual initition.

Hey, whatever works for you. I say go nuts, especially if your table likes it!

[Overbyte]

I'm with the group that thinks you don't get a roll for spells that are active, only to spot someone casting.

This sounds terrible. Looking at my own character if I were to cast a Force 6 Detect Enemies, Extended spell,  anyone would get Intuition + Magic Skill + 12 dice to spot it. So a mage would get over 20 dice and just buying successes will let him spot it every time.

I would indeed expect to easily notice such a spell being cast in front of me if I am a mage, buying hits if allowed. However, if you are casting that spell in front of me, does it matter if I see it? I mean, why cast such a spell in front of the opposing mage?

Anyway, yes, such a huge spell I would describe as a net flying from you and fading as it leaves your aura. Anyone looking directly at you I would have a decent roll to notice it. You don't have to like my way of doing things =P

Ah.. since the thread is about "sustained spells already cast beforehand" my assumption was your rule applied to that. You should DEFINITELY notice a mage casting a huge spell right in front of you. I'm talking about noticing the EFFECT not the casting. Which I don't think you should. If I cast detect enemies to figure out where the enemies are, its not really great if I just alerted to all of them to my presence when they don't know I'm there.

[Senko]

@Overbyte
No point really just a general musing that it seems odd a lot of people go out of their way to nerf/limit magic but not do the same with technology. To use a recent example in this thread take Fenix's big net coming out of you for a detection spell but no visible effects for a decker hacking into cameras to achieve the same result i.e. identifying enemy locations.

@All
Fair enough different people like different things, as long as your having fun that's the important thing.

[Medicineman]

Sidenotice @ Fenix Post on Page 2

>>>>Hmm. Part of the point, though, is that no one actually can have Agility 8 if they are a human being outside of augmentations - max is 6 (or sometimes 7).

Sorry but that's wrong.
AGI 8 (or even 9) is naturally Possible for a Human With Exceptional Attribute (pos Qual), genetic optimisation (Bioware)
and even Metagenetic Advantage (Surge). It is possible to get a NATURAL AGI (or any other Attribute) of 8 (with Surge 9)
Which than can be raised with 'ware to 8(12) or even 9(13)

I guess you're setting your standards to low

with a higher Dance
Medicineman

[Senko]

Base agility sure but I wouldn't personally call it natural if you need bioware or human if their surging. Subspecies maybe but not really human.

[Medicineman]

that's why I put the 3rd option (Surge) in Brackets, but Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimisation are (imO) well in the realm/range of natural Ability .

He who dances right now to the Hymn of Akira Ifukube
Medicineman

[Kiirnodel]

that's why I put the 3rd option (Surge) in Brackets, but Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimisation are (imO) well in the realm/range of natural Ability .

He who dances right now to the Hymn of Akira Ifukube
Medicineman

I'm not sure that's "well within" the range of natural ability. I'm assuming you're meaning the option to get the effects of geneware as a quality. Getting all the way up to 8 is definitely on the fringe/edge. It's possible to get it naturally, but definitely highly unlikely.

The original point was the idea of being able to notice someone augmented up to 8 as comparable  to noticing it as magical or inhuman. It doesn't seem out of the question to say that getting up to an 8 (no matter the method) would appear super-humanly agile. Having a genetic abnormality can make you super-humanly fast even if it is natural.

[Fenix Wulfheart]

Sidenotice @ Fenix Post on Page 2

>>>>Hmm. Part of the point, though, is that no one actually can have Agility 8 if they are a human being outside of augmentations - max is 6 (or sometimes 7).

Sorry but that's wrong.
AGI 8 (or even 9) is naturally Possible for a Human With Exceptional Attribute (pos Qual), genetic optimisation (Bioware)
and even Metagenetic Advantage (Surge). It is possible to get a NATURAL AGI (or any other Attribute) of 8 (with Surge 9)
Which than can be raised with 'ware to 8(12) or even 9(13)

I guess you're setting your standards to low

with a higher Dance
Medicineman

Nah, just a difference in definitions. Genetic optimization is in the class I refer to as augmentations, and SURGE is not in the class I refer to as "normal human". Hence, unagumented normal human in my parlance refers to an individual whos maximum is exactly 6 or exactly 7.

I agree that this was not clear in what I actually said above.

[Fenix Wulfheart]

@Overbyte
No point really just a general musing that it seems odd a lot of people go out of their way to nerf/limit magic but not do the same with technology. To use a recent example in this thread take Fenix's big net coming out of you for a detection spell but no visible effects for a decker hacking into cameras to achieve the same result i.e. identifying enemy locations.

@All
Fair enough different people like different things, as long as your having fun that's the important thing.

Nah, decker is just as visible to all those with Matrix Perception. Arguably more visible - you get to see if your on the same section of grid or in the same node in my rules. Similarly, if a decker hacks a camera there may be a roll to notice its behavior alteration in meat space. When there is a physical manifestation, there is a possible physical notice check. When there isn't, there is a specialized notice check appropriate to the circumstances. Basically, I just justify the rules, then take them a step further in continuance of my table's playstyle.

[Senko]

Nah, decker is just as visible to all those with Matrix Perception. Arguably more visible - you get to see if your on the same section of grid or in the same node in my rules. Similarly, if a decker hacks a camera there may be a roll to notice its behavior alteration in meat space. When there is a physical manifestation, there is a possible physical notice check. When there isn't, there is a specialized notice check appropriate to the circumstances. Basically, I just justify the rules, then take them a step further in continuance of my table's playstyle.

Note the part I bolded. Decking is visible to those with "matrix perception" not everyone. Sure in the shadowrun world that's pretty much everyone but someone without something to give them that wont see a single thing. That's my point to see a decker working you need to be able to perceive the matrix (glasses, implanted comlink, contacts, technomancer, etc). Whatever the means you need that. RAW you don't need "magic perception" to notice someone casting a spell you just need to be in the general area. On top of which its badly written and has a huge amount of important information just left off.

Hence my ruling you can't see magic being cast without "magic perception" either by being a mage, mystic adept, adpet (with astral perception) or taking the quality (available to everyone). So while not everyone can notice a spell being cast e.g. normal person facing away anyone potentially can sense/see/smell/? it IF they invest the karma resources to take that feat or if your an NPC have the GM give it to you.

I'm not saying decking can't be detected I'm asking that magic receive the same courtesy i.e. you can't notice matrix actions without a means of accessing the matrix so you shouldn't be able to notice magic actions (barring obvious effects/causes) without a similar means of accessing magic.+