Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: LonePaladin on <01-25-11/1536:48>
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Please read this in its entirety before responding. I can cite references if needed, but it might take me some time.
In preparing a new campaign, I was looking over the timeline (http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Timeline) on the Sixth World Wiki (via dumpshock), and saw something that just doesn't fit. Apparently, several older sourcebooks introduced some future history regarding the Catholic Church, and how they handled the emergence of metahumanity and magic.
Here's everything the timeline has to say about the Church:
- 2010: In Vatican City, Pope John Paul III dies suddenly of the VITAS plague. He is succeeded by archconservative Cardinal Vitali who takes the name John Paul IV. (Shadows of Europe)
- 1 Jan 2011: In Vatican City, during the traditional New Year's Message from St. Peter's Square, Pope John-Paul IV denounces metahumans as abominations in the eyes of God. (Tír na nÓg)
- 2012: In the Czech Republic, Czech Catholics, responding to the Pope's denouncement of metahumans, rise up against the Vatican. (Shadows of Europe)
- 2012: In France, the FCC opposes Pope John-Paul IV's declaration against metahumans, creating a permanent rift between the FCC and the Vatican. (Shadows of Europe)
- Mar 2012: In Vatican City, a Papal Bull is issued confirming Pope John Paul IV's position against metahumans and further denouncing all things magical as "unholy and ungodly by their very nature." (Shadows of Europe)
- 2013: In Vatican City, Pope John Paul IV dies in his sleep. He is replaced by a moderate Brazillian cardinal who takes the name John XXV. Despite this change in power, several Irish Catholic bishops who had refused to accept John Paul IV's denouncement of metahumans, break from the Catholic church and instead go to the Church of Ireland, a small splinter church. (Tír na nÓg)
- 2023: In Fatima, Portugal, during a visit by Pope John XXV, a new apparition of the Virgin Mary appears before thousands of witnesses. This event reinforces the Pope's declaration against metahumans and further pushes the Portuguese Catholic community into a conservative mindset. (Shadows of Europe)
- 2024: Pope John XXV issues 'In Imago Dei' encyclical: Metahumans have souls and are capable of salvation. Magical abilities are not inherently evil. Spirits are manifestations of nature (gray area).
- 2036: Open war in Italy is only avoided when Pope John XXV negotiates a settlement between the corporations and the sindaci (mayors). The cities of Genoa, Milan and Turin are written off as a catastrophe zone and renamed the Special Administrative Zone of Genoa-Milan-Turin (GeMiTo). (Shadows of Europe)
- 2042: In the Papal States, Italian Confederation, Pope John XXV declares that women may now be appointed priests in the Catholic Church. (Shadows of Europe)
I don't know if there are any other Catholics here, but there are a couple things here that don't sound right.
First is the original denunciation of metahumans in 2011. This sort of thing just wouldn't happen -- the Vatican simply wouldn't make an announcement like this without a LOT of deliberation, and the Church is extremely conservative about this. (To give an example, they spent a long time on the question "If a human were cloned, what's its status?" They decided that, while they don't approve of cloning, the beings that result would still have souls.) If this were a personal opinion of the Pope, it would have been left out of the New Year's Day message. It's one of those thorny issues that would start with a "wait and see" attitude. It would probably take a decade or longer for them to reach a consensus on this.
Next is the 2023 visitation of the apparition of the Virgin Mary. This, quite simply, makes no sense at all. I'm assuming that this apparition is visual and had a spoken message -- it doesn't really say. If it DID have a message, it would've been picked over with a fine-toothed comb before being taken as as canon. (And what if this apparition was actually just an unstable Catholic magician creating an illusion?)
The very next year, the Pope issues an encyclical reversing the entire denunciation. Right after having it 'reinforced' by the Virgin Mary. Wait, what? (Now, this particular item is really the only thing on the list that fits with how the Church operates. It's about the right time-frame for them to have discussed the issue, and it also meshes with the Church's stance. They've always held that people have the same status -- spiritually -- regardless of race or status.) The Church also investigates these sort of things very thoroughly; a Marian apparition in Green Bay, WI, was only recently ruled as 'worthy of belief'; it happened 150 years ago.
One more really big sticking point. 2042, when the Pope declares that women can be priests. Not gonna happen. This is one of those things that's always been in the rules, and Pope John Paul II issued a letter, "Ordinatio Sacerdotalis", in 1995 that basically says that the Church simply does not have the authority to change this rule, ever.
Okay, so I'm likely filtering this through a bunch of people who know next to nothing about the Catholic Church. That's okay; I'm not here to try to convert people or whatever, just to try to clear up some things. This isn't intended to start some sort of flame-war, I just think that the references dropped in the cited sourcebooks (especially Shadows of Europe) were written by someone who didn't have a clear understanding of the Church.
Here's an idea that might make the stuff that John Paul IV did. What if his denunciation was simply a personal opinion, rather than an official statement? It wouldn't be the first time a Pope has had something blown way out of proportion. If something turns up that falls outside the issues the Church has dealt with, they take a VERY long time debating it before they make any official proclamations.
The apparition could have simply been an illusion created by a magician to try to reinforce the denunciation; maybe a local priest or monk was able to detect the deception, which would have triggered the Church coming to the conclusion that magic can be used for good or evil.
Regarding the "women as priests" issue: What if this were changed? What if, instead, they declared that metahumans are eligible for priesthood and religious vocations? This would sound more like something they'd do, and the time-frame (18 years from 'you have a soul' to 'you can help us out') sounds about right.
Some interesting things that might be worth working on for something later:
- What if some of the saints turned out to be metahuman? Say, Saint Christopher being a troll? The same thing could be done with the saints who are currently lying in state -- the sort where their bodies are on display, and not decomposing. (Yes, that sounds really weird. It happens. Creeps me out.) What if these bodies changed during the Awakening?
- The Church has a strong tradition of healing miracles, and magic includes some pretty powerful healing spells. What if it turned out that some of the more recent saints -- like St. Pio of Pietrelcina (aka Padre Pio) -- were pre-Awakening spellcasters?
- Saint Isidore of Seville is the unoffical patron saint of the Internet (mainly because he hand-wrote a 20-volume encyclopedia). What if they made it official? Even better, how about a monastic order of white-hat hackers? Or a monastic order that focuses on exorcisms, dispatching troublesome spirits, and thwarting corrupted spellcasters?
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Edit: By the way, welcome to the forums, LP!
First off, I'm an NPC (Non-Practicing Catholic), so if I get some stuff wrong, let me know.
I've always assumed the Pope's New Year Message wasn't a declaration of the church's views, but more like the Pope's "State of the Union", i.e. his personal thoughts as the head of the Catholic Church, so it wasn't an official stance by the church, but many Catholics would follow it as imitation of the head of their faith.
I like the idea of the apparition as being the work of a loyal priest that had not realized he had awakened. As they were investigating it, they came across this fervent believer and had to make the choice of accepting magic as a tool or defrocking and denouncing this obedient subject and they chose the former.
Finally, in regards to the "women as priests", even the "Ordinatio Sacerdotalis" can be changed. Since it was issued by the Pope, the church can always rule that it was reversible due to human fallibility.
Some big reversals of the Catholic church's position (of which, some are bigger than women as priests):
Usury
When: About the 16th century
Original rule: Lend freely, hoping nothing thereby, the Bible teaches. Interpreted literally, this prohibition against profiting on loans played a major role in the creation of the European credit markets during the Middle Ages. Bankers had to devise methods of profiting from moneylending without directly charging interest.
How it changed: The rule simply faded away as European capitalism developed during the Renaissance. The charging of interest forms the basis of the modern financial system, so economic history might have turned out quite differently had the rule stayed in place. The Islamic banking system, where usury is still prohibited, gives a pretty good picture of how finance might have worked without interest.
Slavery
When: The mid- to late-19th century
Original rule: No less an authority than St. Augustine said that Jesus Christ did not make men free from being slaves. As late at 1860, the church taught that it was not a sin to own another human being so long as the slave was treated humanely.
How it changed: The church never really took a firm stance against slavery until the practice was already largely banished in the Western world. Pope Gregory XVI was the first to criticize slavery in 1839, though he left a good deal of room for interpretation. It wasnt until Leo XIII, the first 20th-century pope, that the church took a firm stance against slavery as a moral outrage. Today, the Catholic Church is at the forefront of efforts to eliminate modern slavery.
Vatican II
When: 1962-1965
Original rule: Traditionally, Catholic Mass was celebrated in the original Latin, with priests facing away from congregants. More generally, the institutions of the church maintained a level of distance from both followers and the modern world as a whole.
How it changed: Few events in church history have done more to change the way Catholicism is lived by its followers than the Second Vatican Council. In addition to allowing Mass to be celebrated in local languages, the church undertook a number of initiatives including the promotion of lay ministries, greater dialogue with other faiths, and more decentralization of authority to dioceses.
Capital Punishment
When: 1995
Original rule: The church was not traditionally opposed to the death penalty for particularly egregious crimes. Catholic theologians, including Thomas Aquinas, wrote vigorous defenses of its use. Some popes even issued death sentences themselves in their capacity as civil rulers.
How it changed: Support for the death penalty had waned in the church over the years, but it wasnt until John Paul IIs 1995 encyclical that the Vaticans opposition was stated explicitly. He wrote that although the death penalty was permissible in extreme cases when society was at risk, improvements in the modern judicial system made such cases practically nonexistent. Benedict XVI, the current pontiff, is a vocal critic of the death penalty and even publicly opposed its use on Saddam Hussein.
Limbo
When: 2007
Original rule: In traditional Catholic theology, limbo is the halfway point between heaven and hell where the unbaptized, including infants, go after death. Even though they had committed no sins, such people had not been cleansed of the original sin through baptism.
How it changed: Limbo was never a particularly popular concept with parishioners, and modern priests rarely discussed it. In 2004, John Paul II formed a commission to come up with a more coherent and enlightened way of describing what happens to infants who die. In 2007, Benedict signed a report recommending the concept be dropped. Instead of going to limbo, unbaptized babies would enjoy eternal happiness after death, but would not achieve communion with God.
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First off, I'm not Catholic but the History half of my double major was focused on Origins: Civilizations & Religions. So my modern Catholicism isn't up to snuff, I'm definitely interested in the topic enough to throw my 2¥ in :)
Point 1. I agree with FastJack that the declaration would have been a Papal statement, surpassing/circumventing any cardinal discussion/deliberations and that with the Pope being God's representative...it would have had great effect so that over the next decade the rest of the church could/would follow the party line
I couldn't find the 1-Jan-2011 entry in Tir Na nOg (pages 27-30 is where I looked). But there is the Irish Times excerpt about the Papal "decree" dated 17-Sept-2011 (Tir Na nOg pg 29). Regardless, anyone making a blanket statement about "malformed" infants in the first year that they appear would register, at least to me, as off their rocker. Given the lag between when UGEs start being born to when the Pope comes out against them (no later than the 17th of Sept 2011) does not include the emergence of the first dragon nor the magical escape of Howling Coyote (the first major semi-public display of magic other than the Samhain celebration in Mass. that I can recall) this would mean either the Pope had some fore-knowledge of what UGE was or he was really and truly suffering from some kind of mental illness (maybe not mental illness, maybe a deep seated fear of the mentally disabled, at the very least a deep seated irrational bias). Given the choices...this opens up the idea of the Catholic church holding information on the pre-5th-world and gives GMs something to play with...or just attribute to an odd/eccentric Pope over-reacting to UGE in the first year.
(Also note: The 1-Jan decree (that I can't find) severely contradicts SWA entry that UGE first start being born on the 13th of Jan (SWA pg 20). This either means; it's an error on the author/publisher's part or is further evidence that the Church has access to hidden knowledge and jumped the gun...in-game the latter is more fun to consider :) ).
Point 2. So here, with the lack of information, we can only go on what happened. Apparition appears. Reinforces the Pope's earlier stance. Next year does a complete 180. So to rationalize it (meaning make sense out of it, but in no way knowing if it's correct assumption or not) one could say Apparition appears. Pope reinforces his stance. Apparition is pissed and later, in secret, convinces the Pope of his error. Is this correct? Who knows. Does it fit with the events...sure. One is free to rationalize it as it fits the campaign. Though surely there would be after effects of Portuguese Catholics angry/upset/worried with the Pope's 180. But apparition as an awakened priest pulling an illusion instead of a free spirit manifesting...sure...until the Vatican records are released (or obtained by Shadowrunners)...who knows :)
Point 3. Women becoming priests...eh...who knows. (see FastJack's list of reversals). 40+ years from now, who can say which way the Church will go, I mean hey...babies are no longer in Limbo...changing the metaphysical state of souls seems a little more difficult than opening up the other half of H. sapiens to give communion. :)
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Peter Taylor was responsible for most if not all of the Church info in SoE. and pretty much every reference to the Church in the early and midde of last decade. That said if you look at some references to the Vigilia and Templars then yes the Pope would probably have been retconned to have had foreknowledge.
To everything else as much as I had my disagreements with him on just about everything I will defend him and the game creators who introduced the whole new years message and Imago Dei etc. and say: Writer Fiat.
Anyway I seem to recall he defended himself on Dumpshock when SoE came out. His handle there is Synner if you want to search by user name.
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If I did want to stage a run against the Vatican, what sort of security do you think they'd have?
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In terms of device security, they'd probably use rating 3 (public) for tourist attractions, rating 4 (restricted) for most archives, rating 5 (military) for stuff relating to the pope and cardinals, and rating 6 (financial) for the hardcore secrets.
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Yeah, I agree with Bradd. Though I would probably go with "slightly paranoid security" and bump up the tourist stuff to 4.
They use the Pontifical Swiss Guard, made up from ex(?)-Swiss Army with special agreement from Switzerland. They carry small arms and halberds (I'd use laser crescent axe with modified reach). There's about 130 guards in Vatican City. Bump up anything off the tourist paths with sentry guns, drones, hidden surveillance systems, and then there's the magic...with the uber library of the ancient world that the Catholic Church has access too, I'd go with very good magical security, top notch. With deep coffers comes the best security one can buy, train, and raise from birth for loyalty. In my opinion, Vatican City would be one of the most difficult places to make a run against in the Sixth World; it's 110 acres with 800 population (today) where most everyone would know everyone else and anyone "different" off the tourist paths would be immediately flagged. Not saying it couldn't be done...but it would be epic.
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If I did want to stage a run against the Vatican, what sort of security do you think they'd have?
The Swiss. They have the Swiss.
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"The Vatican" is a real, actual country again in the Sixth World. I mean, technically it already is in the present, but lets not kid ourselves, heh. But in Shadowrun, the Papal States exist again, and cover most of Central Italy. And the Vatican is the centre of it. Its the government seat of a country. So, security - true military, if they're paranoid. In any case a similar security as any government seat or parliament building in Europe. Plus most likely way better magic. Certainly not only the picturesque Swiss Guards anymore.
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I'm pretty sure that the ones the public usually encounter will be wearing the Michaelangelo jumpsuits for a while -- at least until the next one comes along.
Now the funny thing about the SG and this Pope is that he is pretty g-d liberal, and the Swiss ... Aren't.
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I'm pretty sure that the ones the public usually encounter will be wearing the Michaelangelo jumpsuits for a while -- at least until the next one comes along.
Well, yeah, but the public, ceremonial guards really wont be the problem in any serious action against the place.
Now the funny thing about the SG and this Pope is that he is pretty g-d liberal, and the Swiss ... Aren't.
Heh. True. Hadnt thought about that...
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First of all, applause for this topic. Chewy and awesome.
Secondly, "monastic order of white-hat hackers" sparks something in my head. Now I must create!
Thirdly, this thread is RIFE, I say RIFE with material for conspiracy and interesting investigation in-game. Small chunks of agreed-upon facts with lots of gaps, and variability in interpretation. The spirit that appeared...free spirit? Benevolent? Trickster that just couldn't help itself? Illusion? The turnaround on metas and magic. The obvious questions about the died-in-his-sleep Pope, and the circumstances that led to that.
There are tons of runs in the making, here, even if it's an archival-history recovery of What Happened.
Yay. ;D
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If I did want to stage a run against the Vatican, what sort of security do you think they'd have?
At the moment the Vatican has this kind of security:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard
Don't be fooled by the retro look :P Actually they have decent technologies.
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Well as a fencer I would advise you not to underestimate the Swiss Guard. They are not just ceremonial, they have AAA training in melee and I would suppose them to be well trained with a gun. In SR, 95 of them would be Initiated adepts. With perfect Tactics training and the Morale most of runners should only dream about...
As for Matrix security...well..they do have Jezuits, don`t they. I remember that I read about them something in Aztlan SB, and they looked like whole bunch of perfectly trained hackers...
And for Magic...they do have not just the most ancient library on the planet (except dragon memory crystals), they have a Holy SPIRIT as well :)
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Makes me wander...
There was a Catholic church order...st. Felix`s, that have been very active first time Shedim come to the awakened world, and they posses a rite to protect dead bodies from Shedim...and they posses this rite even before Shedim enter...
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(Also note: The 1-Jan decree (that I can't find) severely contradicts SWA entry that UGE first start being born on the 13th of Jan (SWA pg 20). This either means; it's an error on the author/publisher's part or is further evidence that the Church has access to hidden knowledge and jumped the gun...in-game the latter is more fun to consider :) ).
Sixth World Almanac has the Papal speech about metahumanity on January 1st, 2012, and the Papal Bull in March. The same date was in Shadows of Europe.
It also worth remember that according to Tir na nOg itself, there were elven babies born as early as 1987, several of them in Northern Ireland Catholic community. Maybe no need for a forbidden library for the Vatican to know about UGE early.
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But just in case, there <b>IS<b> a forbidden library.
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Well, technically, it's just a repository for all the paperwork the Church goes through, and a lot of things held for archival purposes. It's called the Secret Library, where the Latin term secretum referring to things that are directly involved with the Pope. It's not *forbidden* per se, but access is restricted to researchers who have to state what they are looking for.
I can imagine, in the 2070s, the Vatican having a Matrix version of this, with some of the more fragile items (like letters from Michelangelo) being viewable only digitally. That node would be a tough nut to crack.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Secret_Archives
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You need to check out Shadows of Europe and Loose Alliances. ;)
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Yeah I was referring to the libraries in Loose Alliances.
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So, what do you make of the Catholic Church's take on technomancers and KI? (Emergence)
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You need to check out Shadows of Europe and Loose Alliances. ;)
That!
Also a peak into Threats 2 wont hurt.
SoE has a list of the most important Orders and their role. To name just the one that where mentioned here before:
New Jesuits - the fellas first described in Aztlan SB. Basically Vatican Intelligence Service (although they put it more nicely). They like cyber and distrust magic.
Silvestrians - Has the majority of the cathlic church´s mages in it. They are the ones that have a reputation for exorcism & fighting shedim, however, they do lots of other magic tasks as well. It´s also worth mentioning, that IIRC, all (or most) traditional religious burial rites stop from stealing the corps, no magically active person has to be involved AFAIK (i think it was mentioned in Year of the Comet, where Shedim are described for the first time).
There is also an order or two dedicated to Matrix-related stuff (Augustinians?).
Then There is the Vigilia Evangelica, which is described in Loose Aliances - they deal with the really secret library stuff.
Threats 2 describes the New Order of the Temple Order in detail, which is a secret militant Order of mages and mundanes.
If you are interested in this kind of stuff, Threats (the 1st) may also be interesting, as it describes the Black Lodge, a magic society which has some unspoken history with the Vatican and claims to be rooted in the original Knights Templar.
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I'm a bit puzzled by the Vigilia Evangelica. DotA: Midnight describes the order as so secretive that members may not even confirm its existence, and they operate under cover identities (such as being Sylvestran brothers). On the other hand, I see it mentioned pretty casually elsewhere, so it seems like a poorly kept secret. I'm not sure whether to interpret that as metagaming convenience, or whether the order really is well-known, or something in between.
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It's not a secret among runners because of the entries in the books. Just like Aztlan blood magic and the shit they did in the Yucatan, Deus and the SCIRE shutdown, and of course the Bugs.
But among the rest of the world it's a secret.
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Thanks, I thought it might be something like that. Kind of like the Masquerade, where all of the monster-folk know of each other, but the general public do not.
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Yeah, with things like Shadowbeat and the various data havens, 'runners tend to have a better view of the big picture than the media-inundated wageslaves.
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@Lone Paladin I am curious the quote:
•2024: Pope John XXV issues 'In Imago Dei' encyclical: Metahumans have souls and are capable of salvation. Magical abilities are not inherently evil. Spirits are manifestations of nature (gray area).
Where is this quote from? No reference in your text.
Hasn't this been the Catholic Church's stance since 1st Edition? Could have sworn I saw this in the First edition book time line. Some help here?
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Yes. It has always been in SR canon.
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All the entries I listed (missing references and all) are from the timeline posted on the Sixth World Wiki (part of Dumpshock).
http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Timeline
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Sixth World Almanac has the Papal speech about metahumanity on January 1st, 2012, and the Papal Bull in March. The same date was in Shadows of Europe.
It also worth remember that according to Tir na nOg itself, there were elven babies born as early as 1987, several of them in Northern Ireland Catholic community. Maybe no need for a forbidden library for the Vatican to know about UGE early.
Thanks, Nath. Error on my part. Still seems a bit premature for the Church to come out against UGE's with only a year of births under the world's belt, even with knowledge of elves, et. al. (secret library or otherwise). But then again, that's a year's worth of 10% of the births being UGEs. Still, hard to imagine the Church making such strong statements when the general public will only see that it's against babies no older than one year old. But then again, if the Church had some special knowledge (especially if it was faulty/misunderstood about the nature of UGEs and the return of magic being linked to "Satan's work") then they were trying to nip the (imagined) problem in the bud.
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And probably the simplest explanation of all is that the Pope simply got scared shitless of what was going on. After all, when a human being is scared, he/she doesn't react logically, but rather impulsively. Thus, the Church has done something it has had a long record doing previously - it denied what it couldn't understand.
Regarding previous knowledge of the mana cycles and other metahuman races - well, even if someone in the Catholic Church knew about it, it doesn't mean that everyone in the higher clergy knew. After all, it is not uncommon for heads of state not to have all the information that the state apparatus has, so there you go. Besides, this might have been a miscalculated attempt of some Church cliques to secure human domination, killing the threat at the very beginning.
Even though you might think that people in the 21st century would not react so foolishly, I think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary, even in our own real world.
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Besides, this might have been a miscalculated attempt of some Church cliques to secure human domination, killing the threat at the very beginning.
According to Threats, the Black Lodge clearly wants to destroy the elven nations, and Shadows of Europe says the Catholic heads in France belong to this organization.
On the other hand, a global rejection of elves rather helped Tir Tairngire creation, prompting lots of them to leave their family and homeland to immigrate to a welcoming nation (Salish-Shidhe first, then Tir Tairngire).
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Sure, the forbidden fruit syndrome, it usually works the exactly opposite way :) Thus, you may have some conspiracy about how the Church actually helped the creation of the Elven nations. In fact, this may go deeper, as the Church might have been infiltrated (mostly by immortal elves), giving more weight to anti-metahuman factions, like the Black Lodge. Some leading figures in Tir-na-nOg come into mind, especially after they seemed to be quite skillful in subversive tactics when transforming Ireland to an elven nation. After all, I guess everyone would agree that creating Tir-na-nOg without removing Rome as a major player would be much more difficult (if possible at all).
Yet, if you allow me to give an example from real-world history, when the Catholic Church turned massively against the Jews during the Renaissance, their campaign was largely successful, as many Jews either emigrated to more tolerant countries (like the Ottoman Empire or Eastern Europe), were segregated in ghettos, or converted to Christianity. Thus, it might be inferred that the Pope had (delusional) hopes that many people would be afraid of the UGE and do something similar. And I guess he didn't account for the popularity of the Lord of the Rings trilogy - after all, you can't imagine somebody throwing away baby Legolas/Gimli :)
Finally, all this could simply mean that the original author didn't know the Catholic Church that well, so he/she didn't write it more realistically. But it shouldn't really matter anyway, as I think everyone would agree that having elven nations is a great setting device.
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*Post has been removed per Terms of Service*
I like this thread, let's keep it civil.
As it is, there's been a lot of comments in this thread that come close to outright disrespect of the Catholic Church, which many might find offensive. Please remember that, just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it wrong. Going forward, simply try to keep the posts more respectful.
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Well. I think it should have been a great misunderstunding :)
IF there is a library, there also should be some ancient scrolls from Scourge and after Scourge era. Secret handed over millenia, misinterpretted and badly understood theese days. They know, that with the return of the magic the Judgement day is near. They do not know that it would take maybe 2000 years to threat become real. They know about Orcs, Trolls, Dwarves and Elves, Dragons atc. But they mishmashed this knowledge and suppose those who will suffer by horrors to be the Horrors. Maybe some evil joke left to us by some powerfull one...
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As it is, there's been a lot of comments in this thread that come close to outright disrespect of the Catholic Church, which many might find offensive. Please remember that, just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it wrong. Going forward, simply try to keep the posts more respectful.
Thank you, FJ.
I didn't start this discussion to give people an opening to vent against the Church, but to point out those areas in which the published items contradict the way that things are handled nowadays. The major conflict I've wanted to emphasize is the notion that the Church would automatically condemn someone on the basis of who they are, rather than what they do.
Yes, they've done that in the past. It wasn't right of them, and they've made reparations and/or apologies. I don't think it's proper to assume that the Church would make the same mistakes again.
Even recently, I've seen things in official sources that just don't quite jibe with what I know. The entry in Street Magic on "Christian Theurgy" brings up things that, while they may be okay in other flavors of Christianity, just don't work for Catholicism. (My wife is going to be playing a Catholic magician, and the tradition she came up with is uses the multitude of saints as manifestations of spirits. She's eventually going to have her character join a monastic order to get her initiation.) I don't know if any other books in the new line-up mention the Church; feel free to point out any other references that have turned up.
I'll admit that my knowledge of the Church isn't as in-depth as my wife's; I guess she took the Academic Knowledge skill, while mine's more of an Interest. (Makes sense; she can come up with quotes from scripture on demand, while my stuff is more intuitive.)
'Course, the things that have been brought up are making me consider staging a run requiring the group to sneak into the Vatican (physically and/or virtually). I might have to re-watch MI:3 just to get an idea of where to start with the security measures. Heh.
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Yes, they've done that in the past. It wasn't right of them, and they've made reparations and/or apologies. I don't think it's proper to assume that the Church would make the same mistakes again.
Humanity and its leaders are surprisingly predictable in making the same mistakes over and over again. The key thing to remember is that, with UGE and Goblinazation, we no longer had race being defined as skin tone, but as fully expressed genetic differences. I don't think all, or even most, of the Church believed this to be the work of the devil, but a single person in authority? That is possible, and can be devastating when his opinion can enforce his group's agendas.
Even recently, I've seen things in official sources that just don't quite jibe with what I know. The entry in Street Magic on "Christian Theurgy" brings up things that, while they may be okay in other flavors of Christianity, just don't work for Catholicism. (My wife is going to be playing a Catholic magician, and the tradition she came up with is uses the multitude of saints as manifestations of spirits. She's eventually going to have her character join a monastic order to get her initiation.) I don't know if any other books in the new line-up mention the Church; feel free to point out any other references that have turned up.
Well, there is basis in the Sixth World that the Catholic Church is a "player" on the world stage. They might not be as powerful as some AAA Corps or the "first world" nations, but they aren't that far out of the loop. Regarding the Christian Theurgy tradition, I believe it was created on the basis that (as it says in its entry), most Christians do not believe that magic is divine in nature. So it's a bit more mixture of Renaissance ideals regarding magic and Christian study. Now, I think her creating a tradition based off spirits being Saints and such could be based off a group of Christian magicians that do believe that magic is divine, and the power they wield comes straight from their God/beliefs. This is why I like the new magic system with flexible traditions, it allows the players to come up with some great new ways to do old tricks. ;)
As far as future books, since some factions and such regarding the Church were in previous books detailing "conspiracy" books, I wouldn't be surprised to see an entry or two in the upcoming Conspiracy Theories sourcebook due out this year.
'Course, the things that have been brought up are making me consider staging a run requiring the group to sneak into the Vatican (physically and/or virtually). I might have to re-watch MI:3 just to get an idea of where to start with the security measures. Heh.
Another good one to check out is Angels and Demons, based on Dan Brown's book. It gives you a great feel of how the "hidden" Vatican may look/operate.
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*Post has been removed per Terms of Service*
I like this thread, let's keep it civil.
As it is, there's been a lot of comments in this thread that come close to outright disrespect of the Catholic Church,
I get rules about not giving offence; I also get rules about not leading threads astray (seeing what the initial aim of this one was) but are you sure you meant mere disrespect? Because whom one gives one's respect should hardly be a matter of forum rules. Maybe I'm just a formulation pedant, but somehow that irks me... makes it sound as if the Catholic Church has some sorta special protection...
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Frosty does have a point there. I've seen some things that edge close to the 'disrespect' category, but I think as long as it's not showing open contempt, we can let it slide.
I'd have to guess that a very tiny minority of people on the board are Catholic -- most are either nonreligious, or in other faiths. (It's not worth running a poll.) Anyone in those categories can be assumed to have misunderstandings about how it works. Heck, even those who are active in the faith might misunderstand key issues. We're not here to try to resolve the Reformation, just to figure out how the Church might fit into the setting.
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I used my best judgement that the post in question crossed a line from the "how the church may act in the Sixth World" to "the church is XXX". I spoke with the offender in question and we actually discussed the situation and they agreed that the post could be seen as being inflammatory and will watch "how" they say things in the future.
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As a personal note: Just in case I've come across opposite to what I've intended, I've meant/intended no disrespect towards any religious or non-religious persons here. My intent has always been to mesh pre-SR-timeline split (~1990) history with the SR-timeline history (post 1990), and when talking about "the Church" I'm over all generally speaking about those in power (Pope, Cardinals, and [to a lesser extent] bishops) in pre-1990 history and post 1990 fictional universe. To antagonize others goes against my personal philosophy (http://fizzygoo.com/blog/comedic-pseudo-nihilism/), hehe.
My wife is going to be playing a Catholic magician, and the tradition she came up with is uses the multitude of saints as manifestations of spirits. She's eventually going to have her character join a monastic order to get her initiation.
As a GM, I would suggest to a player wanting to play a Catholic magician that their spirits align more with angelic hierarchy (angles, archangels, principalities/rules, powers, virtues...up to seraphim) as found in Pseudo-Dionysius' and Thomas Aquinas' works. And relegate the Saints to Astral guides, Dwellers-on-the-Threshold, unique free spirits, etc. The idea of the angelic beings being spirit-without-matter fits better with angles being spirits (in my mind) than that of Saints (though I'd love to hear your wife's reasoning for using Saints).
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Dont know...is this thread meant to be some Apologies thread or are we discussing the Church. That church, that supports mercs and renegades in their efforts do destabilize Aztech assets in Colombia, what I applaud. That Church, that have a blood on its handsfrom thousands of years of history and there is no reason to believe that it would change after metas-pogroms in half a world. That church, that includes some blood thirsty inquisitors and paladins and inspire lot more, than just a good side of our meta-humanity.
Are we discussing Shadowrun or some IRL personal beliefs and faiths...
Please. Lets get back to the topic, because religion clashes, even on internet, wont bring us anything good, just Flame and Hellfire. :-\
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Dont know...is this thread meant to be some Apologies thread or are we discussing the Church. That church, that supports mercs and renegades in their efforts do destabilize Aztech assets in Colombia, what I applaud. That Church, that have a blood on its handsfrom thousands of years of history and there is no reason to believe that it would change after metas-pogroms in half a world. That church, that includes some blood thirsty inquisitors and paladins and inspire lot more, than just a good side of our meta-humanity.
Are we discussing Shadowrun or some IRL personal beliefs and faiths...
Please. Lets get back to the topic, because religion clashes, even on internet, wont bring us anything good, just Flame and Hellfire. :-\
Thanks, Sichr, that's what I was trying to promote with the post deletion, it strayed too far from an SR topic to RL beliefs.
And don't worry, the mods (myself included) are keeping an eye on this to make sure it doesn't go down the path to hellfire and brimstone. ;)
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I've asked my wife to formalize a description of the "Communion of Saints" as a magical tradition. Once she's got that, I'll post it here (with the crunchy bits) for perusal.
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@LonePaladin: Sweet! Looking forward to it :)
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Sorry to revive this, well there is a lot of new space for speculations on this topic, and it would be waste if those 5 pages remain forgotten:
http://www.vatileaks.com/
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There are also regional Catholic Church views. While the current SR Pope said, basically, that magic and metahumans were okay . . . there are parts of Europe which adhere to a more hostile view as the 'true' Catholic dogma: Spain, Portugal, Southern Italy, Southern France, Westphalia, Austria . . . feel free to chip in. While Spain, Portugal and Austria are nominally toeing the Vatican line, albeit with a whackload of theo-political maneuvering behind the scenes, Westphalia completely broke with the Vatican.
I also find it interesting that Aztlan is apparently out to destroy the Catholic Church in toto, starting with the suppression of Catholicism within its borders and control. Whereas Tir na nOg was, again apparently, content with breaking the Church's power and influence within Ireland.
More as I think of it . . . I confess to having an in-character interest in this, as the significant other of my PC was killed by Vatican Templars.
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About that AZT, I remember in Aztlan sourcebook there was a lot of notations that Jezuits are active in cyber warfare against Aztlan...this is also supported by their activity in Bogotáa...
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Not just cyberwarfare - protecting what congregations still meet and seeking (re)converts. The description of a New Jesuit was . . . alarming, cos if that's what they were like, and the New Templars were even more hard-core/line . . . then . . . yeesh :o
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Yup. Ive come across so called Sylvestryan brothers, who in fact are Vigilia Evangelica, in 2nd Artifacts adventure. It seems to me that those guys are much more than just a moderate threat to common runner, on the other side, they seem to tend to protgect and talk to people instead of shooting them first. I have much more to read, as I have suspicion that such groups also appear in Conspiration Theories. Really currious they made me. Aslo As Ive posted that vatileaks link, im trying to dig up something that allows me to use this groups more in what is going on in 6th world.
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There's also the rumored “The Knights of Saint Nicholas”.
Safehouses, page 8.
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U dont say :)
Slowly making my way to that book. So I still cannot applaud, sir :)
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The reasons Aztlan and Tir na Nog wanted the Catholic Church out of their lands are the same. The Tir wanted to make a nice, elf-only land run by the 'old ways', and the Church would have interfered with that. Aztlan wanted to make a nice, corporate owned place run by the corporate religion and using blood magic for all kinds of fun and games, and the Church would have interfered with that.
OK, so their motives weren't completely the same...
Anyways, how I see it is that, when the Awakening happened, you had what amounted to fantasy stories coming to life, complete with elves, orks, dragons, and magic. You know what isn't in all those old fantasy stories? One God and his Son and yada yada yada. On top of that, everyone's ideas of how the world worked were completely thrown on their heads, and that makes people scared. Religious leaders are not immune to this, and because of the fact that they are religious leaders, they tend to see these things as tests or punishments from on high. Which leads us to the Pope condemning all Awakened.
Fast forward a couple decades, and people are coming to grips with the world, and the fear diminishes. Which is why people looked at the Church's view, and decided that something needed to change.
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Religion is, as you might guess, a *very* touchy subject. Here and there, some writers will nibble aorund the edges, but, as Torg taught us, you have to be CAREFUL with this stuff. Few things are as personal as someone's private beliefs.
As for myself, I'd like to see a tad more religion in-game, or at least a few more believers. When times are rough (And, in Shadowrun, times are tough more often than not!), people find some strength through their beliefs. Doesn't matter if it's Yahweh or Grandfather Coyote or Odin or 1000101, whatever someone chooses to believe in, and invoke, should come through. Havng a handful of 'runners that fire off a quick prayer or an 'Our Father' before taking a big risk, or leaving a small sacrifice to the sky father, whatever, in the middle of all the usual grim-faced types is a nice change.
For teh Shadowrun game world, the Catholic Church got kicked out of several places and had a Pope who kinda scuttled relationships badly, but has been slowly working to repair things. The Church has been active in Aztlan since the 40's, trying to get back what they lost and drive out the blood magicians, for instance, while in Europe, they battle against vampires and the Black Lodge. (Or were infiltrated by the Black Lodge, depending on who you believe.)
Making a VALUE judgement on these organizations ia a bad idea, but, as long as you're respectful, you can use them for in-game plots, I think.
Just, please, for the sake of everyone, walk carefully.
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absolutely right. Im happy that at my table there is no political corectness involved. But on interwebz, I wont challenge since I know just a little of people here...and it is realy easy to offend someone
So...Peace please
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45si4Rjgi-M
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New Jesuit Order. Pfaugh. Not even the Jesuits are named the Jesuits. I bet you the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) and the Dogs of God (Dominicans) have some serious scorn for the amateurs that the NJO and Templars are....
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U dont say :)
Slowly making my way to that book. So I still cannot applaud, sir :)
Wait until you see why they're named that.Religion is, as you might guess, a *very* touchy subject. Here and there, some writers will nibble aorund the edges, but, as Torg taught us, you have to be CAREFUL with this stuff. Few things are as personal as someone's private beliefs.
So we can't make the obvious comparisons between the Universal Brotherhood and Scientology? ;D
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Just, please, for the sake of everyone, walk carefully.
Thank you, Wakshaani. This was why I had all those warnings and disclaimers on my original post.
One of the major issues that led to me writing this was something brought up in Shadows of Europe, which has thusly been added to the canon timeline: the Church allowing female priests. This is one of those issues that people have been trying to get for thousands of years already (especially recently), and it's just not going to change -- possibly in one of the many groups that split off from the Catholic Church, but not in the main Church.
Admittedly, this particular issue turns up a lot in sci-fi stories. Most of these are written by non-Catholics or, worse, ex-Catholics. The latter tend to be a particularly vitriolic group, and if they get something published or start up any sort of group activity, they tend to take every aspect of Church doctrine, reverse it, and claim that their version is the "right" way.
Anyway, since this discussion got revived, I'll see if I can find my notes on that alternate magical tradition, like I promised a while back.
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quote author=Wakshaani link=topic=2726.msg132302#msg132302 date=1338230645]Religion is, as you might guess, a *very* touchy subject. Here and there, some writers will nibble aorund the edges, but, as Torg taught us, you have to be CAREFUL with this stuff. Few things are as personal as someone's private beliefs.
So we can't make the obvious comparisons between the Universal Brotherhood and Scientology? ;D
[/quote]
*sniffle*
I'll miss you, CanRay.
Give Travolta my regards.
Back on topic, in my Current Project (tm), I have a situation set up with a UB-like thing. It was a tad tricky (When it gets published, I can talk about it more), That I have two people biased for and against it, then several others who don't discuss their exact beliefs, but take a line that you need to believe in *something*... I think it's a fair balance. We'll see when it starts hitting people's hands. Which won't be before Gencon. I feel so bad for the main crew right now ... they're working, like 32 hour days.
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New Jesuit Order. Pfaugh. Not even the Jesuits are named the Jesuits. I bet you the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) and the Dogs of God (Dominicans) have some serious scorn for the amateurs that the NJO and Templars are....
Bit of a strange doubling up in 6W Catholic Church . . . The original Society of Jesus exists alongside the New Jesuits. And the Domini canes were disbanded in the . . . 17th century? 18th? Only to be reformed ostensibly under the patronage of (a) St Dominic. I don't know which one.
One group absent - in retrospect, strangely obviously so - from Conspiracy Theories was Opus Dei . . .
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Dan Brown fucking ruined Opus Dei for everyone else for a generation.
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Completely agree with that
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It can't be salvaged in print somehow?
Or just made use of?
Intended as honest questions, not mockery or anything.
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Hmm...just heard about first real Elvis Presley priest :)
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4334461/Vicar-Andy-Kelso-quits-job-to-become-Elvis-Presley-impersonator.html
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It can't be salvaged in print somehow?
Or just made use of?
When you consider that the majority of its members are just lay people practicing their faith in conjunction with living an ordinary life, there really isn't much that you can do with them to make it interesting. At least, not if you want to be honest about them.
Look at their Wikipedia entry. The word "alleged" crops up nearly a dozen times. Most of the things they're accused of came from non-Catholics and aren't true. Except for the conspiracy theories that have cropped up about them, they're actually a fairly boring group. The only thing I can think of that might be a little iffy is a practice called "mortification of the flesh", which could be something as drastic as self-flagellation... but might simply be fasting.
In the Sixth World, this group might morph into a magical group, maybe. That would be about the only thing I could see as feasible.
I could see a runner or NPC being a member, maybe, for some additional color.
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Hmm..Should this "Mortification of the flesh" lead to developing some kind of Posession based Christian magical group? Self-harming geas to invoking rituals (well it looks pretty close to Life magic...which is considered blood magic within some circles...)
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Nah . . . the Sylvestrines do a pretty good job of accounting for Possessor-type spirits.
I found it interesting in War! actually that there was mention of some Church types being so anti-Awakened that they were willing to surreptitiously collaborate with the Azzies against Amazonia. Just goes to show, you can find whackjobs anywhere.
A former Sylvestrine turned 'runner would make a pretty interesting character, actually.
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Nah . . . the Sylvestrines do a pretty good job of accounting for Possessor-type spirits.
Please any further explanation? Ive just used them for the first time...the situation was brilliant
During the shootout in DeerCreek park (those who had played Artifacts 2 will know) one of PCs got almost killed and in his last moments he burned the edge for Hand Of God...
So I materialized Guardian Angel, great force 9 spirit form, who swept two LMG FA bursts with his wings and saved PCs ass. Sylvestrines entered the scene just a moment after to do the cleanup and help rest of the team silence oposing forces and protect civilians.
That PC was Oni samurai who was raised on Yomi, and he have nice habbit of eating hearts of killed Japaneese/ mainly Yakuza/ oponents (also as a part of personal code), when he had a chance. Meeting such entity for 1 Edge point was a bit...disturbing for him.
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That, Sichr, is how you do it. +1 to you, sir.
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Long Shot, did you ever find that write up your wife did of her Catholic tradition? My wife and I would be interested to read it.
Thanks!
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It wasn't me, it was another poster. Check back in this thread.
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(Also note: The 1-Jan decree (that I can't find) severely contradicts SWA entry that UGE first start being born on the 13th of Jan (SWA pg 20). This either means; it's an error on the author/publisher's part or is further evidence that the Church has access to hidden knowledge and jumped the gun...in-game the latter is more fun to consider :) ).
Sixth World Almanac has the Papal speech about metahumanity on January 1st, 2012, and the Papal Bull in March. The same date was in Shadows of Europe.
It also worth remember that according to Tir na nOg itself, there were elven babies born as early as 1987, several of them in Northern Ireland Catholic community. Maybe no need for a forbidden library for the Vatican to know about UGE early.
Didn't Leonardo have something to do with the Catholic Church? He could have supplied information and/or helped give the Catholic Church a heads up on what was coming. Either willingly or through trickery. (Even immortal beings can get drunk or drugged.)
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Long Shot, did you ever find that write up your wife did of her Catholic tradition?
That was me, and I'm looking for my notes on it.