[zhivik]

And probably the simplest explanation of all is that the Pope simply got scared shitless of what was going on. After all, when a human being is scared, he/she doesn't react logically, but rather impulsively. Thus, the Church has done something it has had a long record doing previously - it denied what it couldn't understand.

Regarding previous knowledge of the mana cycles and other metahuman races - well, even if someone in the Catholic Church knew about it, it doesn't mean that everyone in the higher clergy knew. After all, it is not uncommon for heads of state not to have all the information that the state apparatus has, so there you go. Besides, this might have been a miscalculated attempt of some Church cliques to secure human domination, killing the threat at the very beginning.

Even though you might think that people in the 21st century would not react so foolishly, I think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary, even in our own real world.

[Nath]

Besides, this might have been a miscalculated attempt of some Church cliques to secure human domination, killing the threat at the very beginning.

According to Threats, the Black Lodge clearly wants to destroy the elven nations, and Shadows of Europe says the Catholic heads in France belong to this organization.
On the other hand, a global rejection of elves rather helped Tir Tairngire creation, prompting lots of them to leave their family and homeland to immigrate to a welcoming nation (Salish-Shidhe first, then Tir Tairngire).

[zhivik]

Sure, the forbidden fruit syndrome, it usually works the exactly opposite way Thus, you may have some conspiracy about how the Church actually helped the creation of the Elven nations. In fact, this may go deeper, as the Church might have been infiltrated (mostly by immortal elves), giving more weight to anti-metahuman factions, like the Black Lodge. Some leading figures in Tir-na-nOg come into mind, especially after they seemed to be quite skillful in subversive tactics when transforming Ireland to an elven nation. After all, I guess everyone would agree that creating Tir-na-nOg without removing Rome as a major player would be much more difficult (if possible at all).

Yet, if you allow me to give an example from real-world history, when the Catholic Church turned massively against the Jews during the Renaissance, their campaign was largely successful, as many Jews either emigrated to more tolerant countries (like the Ottoman Empire or Eastern Europe), were segregated in ghettos, or converted to Christianity. Thus, it might be inferred that the Pope had (delusional) hopes that many people would be afraid of the UGE and do something similar. And I guess he didn't account for the popularity of the Lord of the Rings trilogy - after all, you can't imagine somebody throwing away baby Legolas/Gimli

Finally, all this could simply mean that the original author didn't know the Catholic Church that well, so he/she didn't write it more realistically. But it shouldn't really matter anyway, as I think everyone would agree that having elven nations is a great setting device.

[FastJack]

*Post has been removed per Terms of Service*

I like this thread, let's keep it civil.

As it is, there's been a lot of comments in this thread that come close to outright disrespect of the Catholic Church, which many might find offensive. Please remember that, just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it wrong. Going forward, simply try to keep the posts more respectful.

[Sichr]

Well. I think it should have been a great misunderstunding
IF there is a library, there also should be some ancient scrolls from Scourge and after Scourge era. Secret handed over millenia, misinterpretted and badly understood theese days. They know, that with the return of the magic the Judgement day is near. They do not know that it would take maybe 2000 years to threat become real. They know about Orcs, Trolls, Dwarves and Elves, Dragons atc. But they mishmashed this knowledge and suppose those who will suffer by horrors to be the Horrors. Maybe some evil joke left to us by some powerfull one...

[LonePaladin]

As it is, there's been a lot of comments in this thread that come close to outright disrespect of the Catholic Church, which many might find offensive. Please remember that, just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it wrong. Going forward, simply try to keep the posts more respectful.

Thank you, FJ.

I didn't start this discussion to give people an opening to vent against the Church, but to point out those areas in which the published items contradict the way that things are handled nowadays. The major conflict I've wanted to emphasize is the notion that the Church would automatically condemn someone on the basis of who they are, rather than what they do.

Yes, they've done that in the past. It wasn't right of them, and they've made reparations and/or apologies. I don't think it's proper to assume that the Church would make the same mistakes again.

Even recently, I've seen things in official sources that just don't quite jibe with what I know. The entry in Street Magic on "Christian Theurgy" brings up things that, while they may be okay in other flavors of Christianity, just don't work for Catholicism. (My wife is going to be playing a Catholic magician, and the tradition she came up with is uses the multitude of saints as manifestations of spirits. She's eventually going to have her character join a monastic order to get her initiation.) I don't know if any other books in the new line-up mention the Church; feel free to point out any other references that have turned up.

I'll admit that my knowledge of the Church isn't as in-depth as my wife's; I guess she took the Academic Knowledge skill, while mine's more of an Interest. (Makes sense; she can come up with quotes from scripture on demand, while my stuff is more intuitive.)

'Course, the things that have been brought up are making me consider staging a run requiring the group to sneak into the Vatican (physically and/or virtually). I might have to re-watch MI:3 just to get an idea of where to start with the security measures. Heh.

[FastJack]

Yes, they've done that in the past. It wasn't right of them, and they've made reparations and/or apologies. I don't think it's proper to assume that the Church would make the same mistakes again.

Humanity and its leaders are surprisingly predictable in making the same mistakes over and over again. The key thing to remember is that, with UGE and Goblinazation, we no longer had race being defined as skin tone, but as fully expressed genetic differences. I don't think all, or even most, of the Church believed this to be the work of the devil, but a single person in authority? That is possible, and can be devastating when his opinion can enforce his group's agendas.

Even recently, I've seen things in official sources that just don't quite jibe with what I know. The entry in Street Magic on "Christian Theurgy" brings up things that, while they may be okay in other flavors of Christianity, just don't work for Catholicism. (My wife is going to be playing a Catholic magician, and the tradition she came up with is uses the multitude of saints as manifestations of spirits. She's eventually going to have her character join a monastic order to get her initiation.) I don't know if any other books in the new line-up mention the Church; feel free to point out any other references that have turned up.

Well, there is basis in the Sixth World that the Catholic Church is a "player" on the world stage. They might not be as powerful as some AAA Corps or the "first world" nations, but they aren't that far out of the loop. Regarding the Christian Theurgy tradition, I believe it was created on the basis that (as it says in its entry), most Christians do not believe that magic is divine in nature. So it's a bit more mixture of Renaissance ideals regarding magic and Christian study. Now, I think her creating a tradition based off spirits being Saints and such could be based off a group of Christian magicians that do believe that magic is divine, and the power they wield comes straight from their God/beliefs. This is why I like the new magic system with flexible traditions, it allows the players to come up with some great new ways to do old tricks.

As far as future books, since some factions and such regarding the Church were in previous books detailing "conspiracy" books, I wouldn't be surprised to see an entry or two in the upcoming Conspiracy Theories sourcebook due out this year.

'Course, the things that have been brought up are making me consider staging a run requiring the group to sneak into the Vatican (physically and/or virtually). I might have to re-watch MI:3 just to get an idea of where to start with the security measures. Heh.

Another good one to check out is Angels and Demons, based on Dan Brown's book. It gives you a great feel of how the "hidden" Vatican may look/operate.

[Frostriese]

*Post has been removed per Terms of Service*

I like this thread, let's keep it civil.

As it is, there's been a lot of comments in this thread that come close to outright disrespect of the Catholic Church,

I get rules about not giving offence; I also get rules about not leading threads astray (seeing what the initial aim of this one was) but are you sure you meant mere disrespect? Because whom one gives one's respect should hardly be a matter of forum rules. Maybe I'm just a formulation pedant, but somehow that irks me... makes it sound as if the Catholic Church has some sorta special protection...

[LonePaladin]

Frosty does have a point there. I've seen some things that edge close to the 'disrespect' category, but I think as long as it's not showing open contempt, we can let it slide.

I'd have to guess that a very tiny minority of people on the board are Catholic -- most are either nonreligious, or in other faiths. (It's not worth running a poll.) Anyone in those categories can be assumed to have misunderstandings about how it works. Heck, even those who are active in the faith might misunderstand key issues. We're not here to try to resolve the Reformation, just to figure out how the Church might fit into the setting.

[FastJack]

I used my best judgement that the post in question crossed a line from the "how the church may act in the Sixth World" to "the church is XXX". I spoke with the offender in question and we actually discussed the situation and they agreed that the post could be seen as being inflammatory and will watch "how" they say things in the future.

[Fizzygoo]

As a personal note: Just in case I've come across opposite to what I've intended, I've meant/intended no disrespect towards any religious or non-religious persons here. My intent has always been to mesh pre-SR-timeline split (~1990) history with the SR-timeline history (post 1990), and when talking about "the Church" I'm over all generally speaking about those in power (Pope, Cardinals, and [to a lesser extent] bishops) in pre-1990 history and post 1990 fictional universe. To antagonize others goes against my personal philosophy, hehe.

My wife is going to be playing a Catholic magician, and the tradition she came up with is uses the multitude of saints as manifestations of spirits. She's eventually going to have her character join a monastic order to get her initiation.

As a GM, I would suggest to a player wanting to play a Catholic magician that their spirits align more with angelic hierarchy (angles, archangels, principalities/rules, powers, virtues...up to seraphim) as found in Pseudo-Dionysius' and Thomas Aquinas' works. And relegate the Saints to Astral guides, Dwellers-on-the-Threshold, unique free spirits, etc. The idea of the angelic beings being spirit-without-matter fits better with angles being spirits (in my mind) than that of Saints (though I'd love to hear your wife's reasoning for using Saints).

[Sichr]

Dont know...is this thread meant to be some Apologies thread or are we discussing the Church. That church, that supports mercs and renegades in their efforts do destabilize Aztech assets in Colombia, what I applaud. That Church, that have a blood on its handsfrom thousands of years of history and there is no reason to believe that it would change after metas-pogroms in half a world. That church, that includes some blood thirsty inquisitors and paladins and inspire lot more, than just a good side of our meta-humanity.

Are we discussing Shadowrun or some IRL personal beliefs and faiths...

Please. Lets get back to the topic, because religion clashes, even on internet, wont bring us anything good,  just Flame and Hellfire.

[FastJack]

Dont know...is this thread meant to be some Apologies thread or are we discussing the Church. That church, that supports mercs and renegades in their efforts do destabilize Aztech assets in Colombia, what I applaud. That Church, that have a blood on its handsfrom thousands of years of history and there is no reason to believe that it would change after metas-pogroms in half a world. That church, that includes some blood thirsty inquisitors and paladins and inspire lot more, than just a good side of our meta-humanity.

Are we discussing Shadowrun or some IRL personal beliefs and faiths...

Please. Lets get back to the topic, because religion clashes, even on internet, wont bring us anything good,  just Flame and Hellfire.

Thanks, Sichr, that's what I was trying to promote with the post deletion, it strayed too far from an SR topic to RL beliefs.

And don't worry, the mods (myself included) are keeping an eye on this to make sure it doesn't go down the path to hellfire and brimstone.

[LonePaladin]

I've asked my wife to formalize a description of the "Communion of Saints" as a magical tradition. Once she's got that, I'll post it here (with the crunchy bits) for perusal.

[Fizzygoo]

@LonePaladin: Sweet! Looking forward to it