Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Xenon on <10-19-19/0418:26>
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In previous edition you had different spells for different attributes and it was clear that you could cast two different spells (for example Increase Charisma and Increase Willpower) on the same target. But also if you cast the same spell twice (for example Increase Charisma) on the same target then they would not stack.
In this edition you only have one spell and you select the attribute at casting time. Do you treat this as if you can only cast the spell on one target once (to increase either Charisma or Willpower) or do you still treat it as before where you can cast Increase Attribute twice (to increase both Charisma and Willpower) on the same target.
I read it as if you cast Increase Attribute twice on the same target then they will not stack, but I've read several posts now where people seem to suggest that you can increase both attributes at the same time by casting the same spell more than once...?
Thoughts?
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I think RAW is somewhat silent on the matter. But I think its allowed to have willpower, charisma and body running at the same time on a target.
Increase/decrease attribute and elemental armour are the only spells which can affect different stuff with the same spell (I think).
But I can understand why you would limit it to "only 1 specific spell can affect a person at a time".
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The caster decides which attribute
to target before casting the spell. [...] They can select
how many net hits they actually apply to the target
to increase the selected attribute, at a rate of 1
point of increase per net hit (maximum bonus +4)
So each spell picks the attribute, and each spell can max give a +4 (and of course we still have augmented maximum). There's no limit listed to stacking anywhere in the spellcasting rules, though it seems fair to introduce the restriction that when you receive 2 similar boosts to the same thing, only the highest applies. (So no combining 3 Combat Sense casts for +massive DR, or two +2 Attribute spells for a +4.) But I see nothing in the rules that would restrict two Increased Attributes being active on different attributes at the same time. I can boost two people's armor, so why would I not be able to boost one person's logic and willpower?
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...so why would I not be able to boost one person's logic and willpower?
Because you are sustaining the same spell twice on the same target.
(also because of balance reasons, but mostly because as far as I can tell you have never been allowed to stack the same spell twice on the same target in any other edition... not sure why it would be treated different in this edition)
Same goes with for example... elemental armor. Do you think the the intention is that you we are allowed to stack this spell twice (for both cooling armor and warming armor at the same time) on the same target, as well? (honest question)
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I refuse to follow the assumption that when they decided to simplify the spells, they deliberately decided to nerf them instead, yet at the same time deliberately did not go through the effort of actively writing that down in the rules. It's not the same spell. It's two different variations of it, even if it was just one spell formula. Just like you can cast multiple spells through double performances of the same ritual, and it won't suddenly clash.
Also: There's nothing supporting that you cannot stack spells to begin with.
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Fair enough. House rule territory it is ;)
Stacking of spells
The same spell being cast more than once on the same target will not stack. Instead only the instance with most net hits will count. This include spells such as Increase Attribute, Decrease Attribute and Elemental Armor, even if they affect different attributes or different elements.
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What is the purpose of your nerf, and why are you not allowing specific-attribute spells if you're going to nerf people down to worse-than-SR5 levels?
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Part because of balance issues. Increasing and sustaining up to +4 each on multiple attributes, including but not limited to both drain attributes, on the same target by using the same spell seem a bit overpowered for just 5 karma.
But mostly I fear that once you start to allow stacking multiple instances of the same spell / augmentation / drug on the same subject then you might end up with a lot of unforeseen complications...
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What is the purpose of your nerf, and why are you not allowing specific-attribute spells if you're going to nerf people down to worse-than-SR5 levels?
He is allowing "specific Attribute spells". And even with the nerf the Attribute spells are still in a good spot.
Its not like spells were considered weak in 5th, either.
1. Instead of 8 different spells, you now have one ri.. spell to rule Them All.
2. With the new focused concentration quality you can have 3 of Them active at once. With Xenons nerf it will just be on 2-3 different team mates. -(alright both editions still have sustaining foci, but still.)
3. Compare it to the matrix equivelant infusion of matrix Attribute. There you still have to buy Them separaretely, and they are ALOT Harder to pull of. Looking for +4 Firewall? Thats 8 hits on the test. Looking for +4 str on the troll adept, 3 hits. (To be fair the drain is a lot higher, and its tougher to cast on cybered team mates).
Personally I like what they did to the increase/decrease Attributes. Atleast the part about not having to buy each one seperately. And I think they should have done the same with the other spells too. Like healing spell, Amp it up and it becomed a cooling heal. Armour spell Amp IT up and it becomes a chilling armour, etc.
But as it stands, increase Attributes are too Strong in my opinion. Nerfing them with a max of one per runner seems cool. And also helps the team in general
At the same time the karma Cost for the spells could increase somewhat. Which also would make the magic priority choice a big tougher. As players wouldnt be too tempted to choose a lower magic priority, and then buy the remaining spells for cheap.
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...so why would I not be able to boost one person's logic and willpower?
Because you are sustaining the same spell twice on the same target.
(also because of balance reasons, but mostly because as far as I can tell you have never been allowed to stack the same spell twice on the same target in any other edition... not sure why it would be treated different in this edition)
Same goes with for example... elemental armor. Do you think the the intention is that you we are allowed to stack this spell twice (for both cooling armor and warming armor at the same time) on the same target, as well? (honest question)
I have no idea what the intent was, but if a Mage wants to give herself -4D to all actions instead of -2D, or allocate two of her (3 max) focused concentration qualities (instead of one), in order to give another two boosts instead of one, I'd allow it. It doesn't seem unbalancing.
Even the case of adding a +2 to a +2 to give +4 in the same attribute. With 12D or larger dice pools, that's essentially inferior to just recasting the spell (i.e. so you're only sustaining one spell for the +4 bonus, instead of two spells for the +4 bonus). So I don't see much of a game balance issue with letting a Mage stack it.
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Fair enough. House rule territory it is ;)
Stacking of spells
The same spell being cast more than once on the same target will not stack. Instead only the instance with most net hits will count. This include spells such as Increase Attribute, Decrease Attribute and Elemental Armor, even if they affect different attributes or different elements.
Implemented this one as well, specifically because of the new design of the Increase Attribute spell and the ongoing misbalance reagarding the interaction with drain.
Restricting Increase Attribute to one appliance per target breaks up the standard optimized buff loadout of 2x Increase Attribute and 1x Improved Reflexes. This helps to bring back some resemblance of balancing to the spell and to mages in general, and it further incourages them to try out other buffs (or buffing other players instead of themselfes).
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Limiting attribute augmentation is not the ideal way of balancing magic. All character types/archetypes should have access to multiple augmentations without having to resort to sacrificing their archetype (magic, resonance, ect.).
You want to appropriately balance magic?
1). Set "mortal" Magic Attribute to a maximum rating of 12, and Initiate Grade to a maximum rating of 6.
Why: Unlimited growth potential is one of the most prominent reasons magic overshadows other options, which all have limited growth.
2). Make Foci have a maximum rating of 4, and that 4 being an artifact level item and appropriately rare. Dramatically increase both the karma and nuyen costs. At least triple the current costs, and I would go even higher.
Why: After a certain point in character progression, which occurs much faster than you might think if you are not experienced with the system, Foci becomes exceptionally more efficient than directly spending karma on your Magic Attribute or Initiate Grade. They also stack on top of the unlimited growth potential, which is ludicrous.
3). Limit the maximum Force of spirits which "mortals" can summon to their Magic Attribute or 8, whichever is lower.
Why: In SR6 even Force 6 is overbearing for most standard opposition that is not magic heavy.
4). Replace the current Immunity to Normal Weapons auto-soak rule with additional soak dice equal to Force.
Why: Auto soak is absurdly powerful, especially in SR6. The current consideration is to reduce the auto soak to 1/2 Force, but additional dice equal to Force will result in less average soak at all Force levels while not necessarily auto-negating damage from small arms at higher Force.
5). Remove the ability to command more than one Spirit at a time.
Why: What is worse than one Force 6, auto-soaking 6 damage, almost entirely risk free minion? Three of them. All the time.
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I wish those changes were official ^^ thats really good ideas @Lormyr.
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I agree with many of Lormys limits though I don’t think a cap on magic is necessary as it probably happens in like only 5 campaigns world wide anyways. So you are damaging the thematic element of magic for a virtually non existent issue. If I were to put that limit in if have some method to break it like a ritual that takes years and years to set up. Not full time ritual but like 12 summer solstices in a row you have to do z. So it would exist but clearly be out of the range of PCs in anything except the most unusual campaigns.
Also I’d just ditch force for spirits. Have 2-3 levels you can summon the top end being PR4 level enemy but tankier. I’d of ditched force for spells without adding amps. You want a fireball that is base damage magic/2+1 learn that specific spell. Sort of like 1-2e there was fireball and hell blast. Then I’d give the spells pre preqs so you can’t just jump to the top end spell from nothing. Nothing too crazy but before learning hell blast You need at least 3 other Combat spells or something.
But I disagree that mages need attribute boosts. I’d of removed quickening from being on people, sustaining focuses entirely and focussed concentration or had focussed concentration reduce the penalty and not stack with psyche.
Mages are the bag of tricks class they can do a crazy range of things. But, none of that should be permanent or pseudo permanent. That’s what balances them. Yeah they can on the fly spin up a physical mask, but it limits them to do so. Yeah they can make someone stronger but it limits them to do so. The various ways to sustain without penalty break that and give the bag of tricks class consistent buffs which are the only thing non mages have over mages.
Adepts/mundanes smaller range always on. Mages bigger range but temporary and limiting to their other abilities.
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I don’t think a cap on magic is necessary as it probably happens in like only 5 campaigns world wide anyways.
I don't have the first clue how other folks play in their home campaigns, but I can tell you that in Chicago Season Missions I encountered at least 11 PCs that had Magic Attributes in the 10-13 range, including my Mystic Adept. This was just in Columbus, Cincinnati, and Dayton too.
But I disagree that mages need attribute boosts.
In a general sense of the word, no one "needs" them. My perspective is that regardless of balance, it feels both unfair and unfun when you have a character unable to benefit from Attribute Augmentation without disrupting your primary role (I'm looking at you early SR5 Technomancer) and you sit down with a bunch of folks with hugely augmented stats.
SR6 is a lot better balanced about this than SR5 ever was, primarily due to the reduced benefit of most non-attack roll, non-drain resistance Attributes due to core system changes.
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Limiting attribute augmentation is not the ideal way of balancing magic. All character types/archetypes should have access to multiple augmentations without having to resort to sacrificing their archetype (magic, resonance, ect.).
Thanks - as ever - for your thoughtful ideas.
Wanted to pick up on this bit though. I totally agree with the principle but for me the execution (in 5e and 6e) is fatally flawed. Every other archetype pays a lot for attribute boosts - in nuyen, Essence, and/or power points. But for mages, these boosts come really cheap, especially once sustaining buffs like Focused Concentration, foci, and Quickening come into play.
And this applies double to higher tiers of boosts. It’s quite easy to come out of chargen with a mage who can cast a +4 version of Increase Attribute and almost guarantee no drain or at worst a box or two. For a combat character to boost Agility by the full 4, or a decker Logic, it’s a substantial investment. For a mage, it’s Tuesday.
It’s wildly unbalanced. Mages need something along these lines, but this ain’t it for me.
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Ease of access is an issue. Focused Concentration is a poorly balanced quality, and I've already gone over Foci issues.
Remove both of those from the equation and then your only option is Quickening. Strong, yes, but it comes with a hole other host of potential social/stealth issues.
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"You can't bring spells in here" can be a common, or perhaps even nearly omnipresent rule across public places.
A flipside of the spirit cap means a generic Mag 6 security mage can have F1 spirits in 18 places of business at a time, each one on the lookout for anyone walking in with active magic going. F1 isn't enough to MAKE you do something about it, but it's certainly enough to recognize active magic when it sees it and mentally alert its master.
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You want to appropriately balance magic?
1). Set "mortal" Magic Attribute to a maximum rating of 12, and Initiate Grade to a maximum rating of 6.
Why: Unlimited growth potential is one of the most prominent reasons magic overshadows other options, which all have limited growth.
2). Make Foci have a maximum rating of 4, and that 4 being an artifact level item and appropriately rare. Dramatically increase both the karma and nuyen costs. At least triple the current costs, and I would go even higher.
Why: After a certain point in character progression, which occurs much faster than you might think if you are not experienced with the system, Foci becomes exceptionally more efficient than directly spending karma on your Magic Attribute or Initiate Grade. They also stack on top of the unlimited growth potential, which is ludicrous.
3). Limit the maximum Force of spirits which "mortals" can summon to their Magic Attribute or 8, whichever is lower.
Why: In SR6 even Force 6 is overbearing for most standard opposition that is not magic heavy.
I Think are All good suggestions, but also somewhat table specific. Ive never player at a table with anyone with10+ magic or 3+ initiation.
Or Crazy powerful foci. And out tables always had the impression that "magicrun" was a thing anyway.
( Spirit durability I agree with is a problem at All levels of Play).
Example: lets say your above suggestions were in effect. How would the have Limited your Mystic adept runner?
He would still have a +4 Attribute bonus on All 8 Attributes thanks to increase Attribute and quickining*. He would "only" have magic 12 and a max of 6 initiate grades. He would be ultra fast thanks to his quickened* reflexes.
He would be able to summon force 8 spirits (I cant remember if your character dabbled in summoning).
No mundane runner would get to that lvl.
I suppose many disallow quickening for This reason
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Ive never player at a table with anyone with10+ magic or 3+ initiation. Or Crazy powerful foci.
Sure. Like I said, I can only speculate how the "average" home game runs because 99% of my SR5 play has been with Missions. Played or ran a game every week for the better part of the last five years.
Example: lets say your above suggestions were in effect. How would the have Limited your Mystic adept runner?
Phain had Magic 12, Initiate Grade 12, a rating 6 power foci, a rating 12 centering foci, a rating 16 qi foci (iron will 8 ), a rating 12 qi foci (natural immunity 12), and a rating 6 qi foci (mystic armor 3). So using my above limitations, and not even considering how the increased foci costs and rarity might have removed the option for some of those foci entirely, he'd have lost:
- 14 of his 44 drain resistance dice, now 30 (6 from Initiate Grade from Centering, 8 from reduced centering foci).
- 6 raw power points from lost Initiate Grades.
- 2 dice from Magic tests from reduced power foci.
- 6 levels of Iron Will from reduced qi foci.
- 8 levels of Natural Immunity from reduced qi foci.
- 1 level of Mystic Armor from reduced qi foci.
And instead of strolling around with Tsumani (a Force 20 water spirit) he routinely summoned, he'd have had Big Wave (a Force 8 ) instead.
I personally think that is a huge power sink (primarily from the drain resistance pool), but you'll have to judge for yourself.
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Remove both of those from the equation and then your only option is Quickening. Strong, yes, but it comes with a hole other host of potential social/stealth issues.
"You can't bring spells in here" can be a common, or perhaps even nearly omnipresent rule across public places.
The problem with this is - if you’re using Quickening as per RAW - I don’t think they’re particularly interesting problems to have at the table. “You can’t go in there without raising an alarm because of your spell” has two likely outcomes - it’s important, so the mage does the astral equivalent of kicking the door in, and now we’re straight to Punk Mohawksville. Or the mage stays outside, and now I have a player bored while the rest of the team does whatever they’re trying to get done. Both are fairly dull, especially when used repeatedly.
Even 1 karma means (I think) no mage is going to regularly give up the Quickening to get in places. It’s not much of an investment, really, but it feels big. So I don’t feel this is a good counter balance.
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Remove both of those from the equation and then your only option is Quickening. Strong, yes, but it comes with a hole other host of potential social/stealth issues.
"You can't bring spells in here" can be a common, or perhaps even nearly omnipresent rule across public places.
The problem with this is - if you’re using Quickening as per RAW - I don’t think they’re particularly interesting problems to have at the table. “You can’t go in there without raising an alarm because of your spell” has two likely outcomes - it’s important, so the mage does the astral equivalent of kicking the door in, and now we’re straight to Punk Mohawksville. Or the mage stays outside, and now I have a player bored while the rest of the team does whatever they’re trying to get done. Both are fairly dull, especially when used repeatedly.
The intent of the suggestion isn't to encourage "stay in the van" play by the mage, but to just not be sustaining any spells at all until the fight begins (or is imminent), rather than 24/7.
Even 1 karma means (I think) no mage is going to regularly give up the Quickening to get in places. It’s not much of an investment, really, but it feels big. So I don’t feel this is a good counter balance.
Quickening WOULD take a hit in effectiveness if the suggestion were followed, granted.
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A flipside of the spirit cap means a generic Mag 6 security mage can have F1 spirits in 18 places of business at a time, each one on the lookout for anyone walking in with active magic going. F1 isn't enough to MAKE you do something about it, but it's certainly enough to recognize active magic when it sees it and mentally alert its master.
I now have an SR6 book and have been looking it over.
It would seem that these F1 Spirits would have to get really lucky with their 2D vs. a Mage 6 with Masking.
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The intent of the suggestion isn't to encourage "stay in the van" play by the mage, but to just not be sustaining any spells at all until the fight begins (or is imminent), rather than 24/7.
Eh. So now every mage spends their first 2-3 actions casting buff spells, just in time for the fight to end? Feels like that’s too far the other way. Samurai don’t spend 3 actions turning on their wired reflexes and drawing then loading guns.
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I now have an SR6 book and have been looking it over.
It would seem that these F1 Spirits would have to get really lucky with their 2D vs. a Mage 6 with Masking.
True, but for security purposes more eyes means better response times and possibly better response effectiveness.
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A flipside of the spirit cap means a generic Mag 6 security mage can have F1 spirits in 18 places of business at a time, each one on the lookout for anyone walking in with active magic going. F1 isn't enough to MAKE you do something about it, but it's certainly enough to recognize active magic when it sees it and mentally alert its master.
I now have an SR6 book and have been looking it over.
It would seem that these F1 Spirits would have to get really lucky with their 2D vs. a Mage 6 with Masking.
Still auto-success to see spells' auras, as Masking doesn't hide those. Only Foci.
The intent of the suggestion isn't to encourage "stay in the van" play by the mage, but to just not be sustaining any spells at all until the fight begins (or is imminent), rather than 24/7.
Eh. So now every mage spends their first 2-3 actions casting buff spells, just in time for the fight to end? Feels like that’s too far the other way. Samurai don’t spend 3 actions turning on their wired reflexes and drawing then loading guns.
Not saying that's how everyone SHOULD play; just saying it's an option. Especially if one sees Focused Concentration as being OP.
Besides: yeah, there IS a similar argument to be had that Sammies shouldn't be running around with Wired Reflexes turned on 24/7, either.
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A flipside of the spirit cap means a generic Mag 6 security mage can have F1 spirits in 18 places of business at a time, each one on the lookout for anyone walking in with active magic going. F1 isn't enough to MAKE you do something about it, but it's certainly enough to recognize active magic when it sees it and mentally alert its master.
I now have an SR6 book and have been looking it over.
It would seem that these F1 Spirits would have to get really lucky with their 2D vs. a Mage 6 with Masking.
Still auto-success to see spells' auras, as Masking doesn't hide those. Only Foci.
The Assensing Table says it requires 2 Hits with those 2D to see Spells, whether it is a Mage or a Spirit looking.
Perception + Intuition is offset by Stealth +Agility.
Where are these auto-successes coming from in SR6?
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A flipside of the spirit cap means a generic Mag 6 security mage can have F1 spirits in 18 places of business at a time, each one on the lookout for anyone walking in with active magic going. F1 isn't enough to MAKE you do something about it, but it's certainly enough to recognize active magic when it sees it and mentally alert its master.
I now have an SR6 book and have been looking it over.
It would seem that these F1 Spirits would have to get really lucky with their 2D vs. a Mage 6 with Masking.
Still auto-success to see spells' auras, as Masking doesn't hide those. Only Foci.
The Assensing Table says it requires 2 Hits with those 2D to see Spells, whether it is a Mage or a Spirit looking.
No, it says that it takes 2 hits on Assensing to identify that a given astral form is specifically a spell. Not that it takes 2 hits to SEE the astral form. If the spirit was told "let me know whenever you detect astral forms you don't recognize" it doesn't matter if the spirit can't identify what the astral form is.
Perception + Intuition is offset by Stealth +Agility.
Where are these auto-successes coming from in SR6?
The same place that you don't have to roll to see someone who's not bothering to sneak. EDIT: In fact, see page 159: "Spells glow brightly on the astral..."
So, sure, if you ARE sneaking, a F1 spirit may not see you at all. Of course, if you're going to the bother of sneaking around, anyone (physically OR astrally) who sees you sneaking around may assume you're up to shenanigans, and the spell you're trying to hide from a dopey astral watchdog may not be what gets you into trouble.
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Wouldnt magic security be like matrix security? In that people still find it useful so you cant ban all magic. You would be compelled to ask the mage what that spell is, who they are and why theyre in the place.
Increase attribute doeant have much of a cost compared to cyberware. But being a mage is it's own priority option creating an opportunity cost. But, but, increase attribute and a few other spells like physical mask and control thoughts renders that cost irrelevant.
But, but, but magic becomes less powerful when there are other magics around to counter it... Not every (or any?) system can be balanced which is why RPGs have referees.
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Well, unlike Magic, virtually EVERYONE is a Matrix user.
If you flat out ban all magic, you're only even affecting a percent of a percent of the population of the sprawl. If Mages are actually part of your clientele, sure you'll probably want a policy with more discretion. But for most places? "No Magic. Period." isn't going to cost them meaningful business.
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But how would they know? They would have to hire a mage. What if that mage doesn't like you discriminating? How much work is it to barr every mage with an active spell? What if mages are on staff?
Also if you want to barr active spells you just pay a mage to ward your property every couple days or whatever. Which, I beleive was mentioned in SR5 as a standard and cheap security measure. And answers one of my questions above: pretty easy.
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But how would they know? They would have to hire a mage. What if that mage doesn't like you discriminating? How much work is it to barr every mage with an active spell? What if mages are on staff?
Also if you want to barr active spells you just pay a mage to ward your property every couple days or whatever. Which, I beleive was mentioned in SR5 as a standard and cheap security measure. And answers one of my questions above: pretty easy.
How would who know what? If you have no magic security, other than the contracted security mage who's putting the spirit or watcher in your establishment, then it's actually quite easy for the astral watchdog. ANYTHING astrally present, other than itself, is a problem. Notify the mage, who's probably just sitting back in his doss watching trideo and raking in a paycheck from the 18 places he's guarding today. Mage pauses his stream, projects onsite, looks more closely at whatever the spirit saw, and materializes to notify security who's the blockhead who walked in with active magic on. Or, depending on the arrangement, he just removes your spell(s) right from the Astral. Dispelling is hella easy in 6we.
Or, yes, just putting a ward up would be another option. Which that same mage may also offer as an another service. Double-dip your security fees wherever you can!
And as for "discrimination": if a place were to say "No Magic" that's not discrimination. On private property, you can bar people from say carrying a concealed weapon. Even where it's legal to do so, with or without a permit. No reason it'd be any different with active magic. Just because you have a license for it, it doesn't mean the owner of private property has to let you bring it in.
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Limiting attribute augmentation is not the ideal way of balancing magic. All character types/archetypes should have access to multiple augmentations without having to resort to sacrificing their archetype (magic, resonance, ect.).
At first, I was like "Yeah, makes sense".
But then I asked myself: "Why exactly?"
Why do mages have to be able to boost multiple Attributes with "their" Attribute enhancement perk? Isn´t that mentality devaluating Augmentations and Adept Powers? And on the flip side, can Adepts and mundane characters summon spirits or cast spells? Can mundane Characters Astrally percieve? And do technomancers have any perks at all that offer any kind of attribute enhancements?
Right now, despite having a ton of other powerfull tools at their fingertips, mages just needs just one(!) spell and some ranks in Focused Concentration (or alternatively, sustaining foci) and they are able to buff up multiple Attributes during their morning breakfast routine, for a total sum that Adepts and Augmented can only dream of. Furthermore, the enhancements from Increase Attribute can affect Attributes that are off limits for Samurai and Adept perks, they can be adjusted for different Attributes when needed and they can be bestowed to other characters.
Restricting Increase Attribute to one appliance per target would be (or rather: would have been?) just the right measure to
- Balance out the increased flexibility of the Spell in an organic way
- Give Adepts and Augmented mundanes a niche in which they can outshine pure mages (at least to a degree, that new flexibility of Increase Attribute is still a banger)
- Make drain an actual thing that matters. Frankly, I´m suprised that so many people here don´t even dare to question the fact that mages can easily head for +8 Drain dice right out of chargen anymore ???
- Promote more teamplay, since you retain more value from the spell when using it to buff up multiple characters and not just yourself.
Even with that nerf, Increase Attribute would still be safe pick in most spellbooks. And if you still insist that mages absolutely need multiple Attribute enhancements in their toolkit: That´s not even gone with that change. There´s still MysAds, the option to sacrifice 1-2 points of magice for lightweight augmentations, Combat drugs and the separate Increase Reflexes spell.
TL;DR: Increase Attributes should be restricted to one appliance per target, and there´s ample reasons to do so.
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The problem with this is - if you’re using Quickening as per RAW - I don’t think they’re particularly interesting problems to have at the table.
That's a perfectly fair personal perspective on the matter. I personally would not take it as far as SSD except for possibly in extremely low end or extremely high end exclusive establishments, and even then only rarely.
Instead, I would constantly be checking that character's SIN when they encountered law enforcement. "You got a license for that christmas tree of spells and deific spirit, son?". The best Missions GMs I had did this to my Mystic Adept every time I walked down the street (figuratively).
Even 1 karma means (I think) no mage is going to regularly give up the Quickening to get in places. It’s not much of an investment, really, but it feels big. So I don’t feel this is a good counter balance.
But this is really the crux, and I don't disagree. Quickening is still good enough that even with social issues, SIN issues, and having to sit one out in the van on occasion issues it's worth taking.
In SR6 specifically, however, Quickened spells are significantly easier to dispell, and I think we will see that happening a lot in response. SR5 though? Forgot about it, you aren't dispelling anything, and even if you do miracle roll, you probably explode with drain for the effort.
At first, I was like "Yeah, makes sense".
But then I asked myself: "Why exactly?"
I see where you are going with your logic, but you do need to take my perspective in the single context it was meant. Note that I also specifically commented on how Technomacers get hosed when it comes to attribute augmentation and how that is unacceptable.
Do I think mages (and all archetypes, no exception) deserve attribute augmentation? Yes.
Do mages also need all the other options that come at their disposal along with that attribute augmentation? Hell no. The rest of your points are largely in line with the limitations I suggested up thread.
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I see where you are going with your logic, but you do need to take my perspective in the single context it was meant. Note that I also specifically commented on how Technomacers get hosed when it comes to attribute augmentation and how that is unacceptable.
Do I think mages (and all archetypes, no exception) deserve attribute augmentation? Yes.
Do mages also need all the other options that come at their disposal along with that attribute augmentation? Hell no. The rest of your points are largely in line with the limitations I suggested up thread.
Fair point. Note that this critique wasn´t supposed directed at you or the post as whole and more at the general philosophy behind that very first statement. Should have made that more clear ;)
I feel that we still partially disagree, though: I don´t think that every Archetype absolutley needs to have comparable Attribute (and other dice pool) enhancement options. IMO, zhis should be the space were Adept powers and Augmentations (and remember, the latter are open to anyone if you are willing to sacrifice some Magic or Resonance!) shine. The toolkit of a mage already contains many strong and versatile options.
Regarding Technomancers: I wouldn´t strictly argue against some resonance-based perks to alter/buff mental and physical (mostly, Agility and Reaction) attributes as long as they are explained well ("You have mastered your own resonant nervous system and are now able to reprogram it at will", yadda yadda). However, this may lead into a design trap were competing Archetypes - in this case, deckers and TMs - are often reduced to a bunch of numbers, statistics and dice pools. I´d rather see more unique, spell-like perks for Technomancers that reflect their reality-bending paranormal abilites than of a bunch of resonance-based surrogates for the augmentations that a decker would have. (Addendum: That´s also why I´m quite underwhelmed by the current range of complex forms and Echoes. Many of these are still just tweaked versions of Matrixs Actions, Programms and Augmentations. Besides the Skinlink Echo, theres´s nothing that really gives them a kind of "Matrix Wizard" vibe.)
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Well, unlike Magic, virtually EVERYONE is a Matrix user.
If you flat out ban all magic, you're only even affecting a percent of a percent of the population of the sprawl. If Mages are actually part of your clientele, sure you'll probably want a policy with more discretion. But for most places? "No Magic. Period." isn't going to cost them meaningful business.
Back in the grounding days if people even took a focus they only took as much as they could mask. I see nothing wrong with setting the society up by and large with you only sustain the spells you can mask.
Personally I’d still ditch all forms of sustaining without penalty if I were writing the rules.