Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Alrician on <10-20-19/1606:30>
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Is there a table for the overall type of each weapon? In other words: If I want to specialize the use of automatic pistols - do I select pistols or automatics for Specialization?
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Pistols = Hold-Outs, Light Pistols and Heavy Pistols.
Automatics = Machine Pistols, Submachine guns.
Rifles = Rifles.
Longarms = Machine Guns.
Shotguns = Shotguns.
I think..
edit: added other types
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Pistols = Hold-Outs, Light Pistols and Heavy Pistols.
Automatics = Machine Pistols, Submachine guns.
Rifles = Rifles.
Longarms = Machine Guns.
Shotguns = Shotguns.
I think..
edit: added other types
I would instead use:
Pistols and Tasers (Tasers are not covered in any Specilisation RAW or included anyway in Pistols ...)
Rifles (including Shotgun, Longarms and Automatics RAW.)
Machine Guns (maybe included in Automatics RAW or not covered like Tasers, I think with Longarms the intent is "Sniper Rifles")
further you could argue that a Crossbow should be able to be either fired with Athletics (Archery Specilisation RAW) or Firearms (Crossbows) and just use the higher skill.
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My understanding is that there is meant to be some overlap. So someone with Firearms (Pistols) will gain the bonus with all pistols, but only pistols; Someone with Firearms (Automatics) will gain the bonus with anything capable of BF or FA, but only those.
So Firearms (Automatics) will cover the Are Predator VI (pistol) and Ares Alpha (rifle), but not the Ruger Super Warhawk (pistol) or Remington 900 (rifle).
Best not to worry too much about how real firearms work and how this sort of blanket mastery isn’t quite realistic. Shadowrun’s firearms work on Hollywood Action Movie Logic, not on actual ballistic science... I’ve been waiting thirty-plus years for them to stop referring to detachable box magazines as “clips,” amongst other errors, but what can ya do?
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So if I had a specilization in Automatics, slinging my UZI: Could i fire SA shots and use my bonus +2?
edit:
didn't want to make another post:
CRB p.257: A light machine gun is bigger and heavier than most rifles [...]
Machine guns probably don't have the same category as rifles judging from this snippet..
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My understanding is that there is meant to be some overlap. So someone with Firearms (Pistols) will gain the bonus with all pistols, but only pistols; Someone with Firearms (Automatics) will gain the bonus with anything capable of BF or FA, but only those.
So Firearms (Automatics) will cover the Are Predator VI (pistol) and Ares Alpha (rifle), but not the Ruger Super Warhawk (pistol) or Remington 900 (rifle).
Best not to worry too much about how real firearms work and how this sort of blanket mastery isn’t quite realistic. Shadowrun’s firearms work on Hollywood Action Movie Logic, not on actual ballistic science... I’ve been waiting thirty-plus years for them to stop referring to detachable box magazines as “clips,” amongst other errors, but what can ya do?
Actually the Holywood logic seems to be less, than one thinks, today I have found out that Prone status give bonus attack rating to firearms attacks. Pretty neat.
However I would suspect that the Automatics specialisation is there as a mistake, if one gets +2 dice pool for everything capable of automatic fire (Machine pistols as well as Assault cannons),that doesn't make sense to me.
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Because it is listed in the rifles table I would assume Ares Desert Strike (5P - SA/BF/FA) is a Rifle.
It is capable of Burst/Full Auto, so is it Automatics?
Then on the other hand it's a sniper rifle, so Longarms?
edit: wording+typo
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For a character thats meant to be used with different GMs i would use the subcategories in the book:
Firearms:
Tasers; Hold-outs; Light Pistols;Heavy Pistols; Machine Pistols; Submachine Guns; Shotguns; Rifles; Machine Guns
Exotic Weapons:
Special Weapons p.258-259 CRB
Reason is RAW "Automatics" is just a silly Firearms super-specilisation like "Hacking" for Cracking.
edit: forgot Heavy Pistols ^^
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Is there a table for the overall type of each weapon? In other words: If I want to specialize the use of automatic pistols - do I select pistols or automatics for Specialization?
There is no such table right now.
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Because it is listed in the rifles table I would assume Ares Desert Strike (5P - SA/BF/FA) is a Rifle.
It is capable of Burst/Full Auto, so is it Automatics?
Then on the other hand it's a sniper rifle, so Longarms?
I would say "yes," it is both of those: it is a Longarm and an Automatic.
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Because it is listed in the rifles table I would assume Ares Desert Strike (5P - SA/BF/FA) is a Rifle.
It is capable of Burst/Full Auto, so is it Automatics?
Then on the other hand it's a sniper rifle, so Longarms?
I would say "yes," it is both of those: it is a Longarm and an Automatic.
Bear in mind that the Desert Strike is now a SA weapon, per the August errata.
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You guys are giving too much credit to whoever created the specializations. Every one of them is just a skill that existed in SR5. Many of them don't make a lot of sense as a result.
Many firearms are automatic. Are tasers pistols? Are shotguns longarms? What if the barrel is sawed-off?
If i take a computer specialization wouldn't that apply to almost every use of the electronics skill since most electronics in the 6th world are or have a computer built in?
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Many firearms are automatic. Are tasers pistols? Are shotguns longarms? What if the barrel is sawed-off?
There are forty-five (45) firearms in the Shadowrun Sixth World Core Rulebook. Out of those, there are 25 that have BF capacity and 12 that have FA capacity.
Tasers are not pistols, they're tasers.
Shotguns are longarms, even with a short barrel.
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Many firearms are automatic. Are tasers pistols? Are shotguns longarms? What if the barrel is sawed-off?
There are forty-five (45) firearms in the Shadowrun Sixth World Core Rulebook. Out of those, there are 25 that have BF capacity and 12 that have FA capacity.
Tasers are not pistols, they're tasers.
Shotguns are longarms, even with a short barrel.
Yup. All true (I didn't check).
Although I did notice I was wrong about where they got the specializations, kinda. Cuz they got rifle, shotgun and longarms as seperate entries. Which seems silly from a gamist perspective. Still, I'm going back to hating electronics and cracking for not explaining their specializations, and leaving firearms alone.
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Is there a table for the overall type of each weapon? In other words: If I want to specialize the use of automatic pistols - do I select pistols or automatics for Specialization?
A Semi-Automatic Pistol would fall under the Pistol Specialization while the Automatics specialization instead include automatic weapons such as Machine Pistols, SMGs and Assault Rifles.
Example of Expertise to Firearms (Pistols) could be: Holdouts, Revolvers, Semi-Automatics and Tasers.
...is just a silly Firearms super-specilisation like "Hacking" for Cracking.
Cybercombat: Brute Force, Crash Program, Data Spike....
Electronic Warfare: Snoop, Control Device, Hide, Jam Signals....
Hacking: Backdoor Entry, Crack File, Probe, Spoof Command...
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I would argue against the Automatics specialization in general. I understand that this is a game, but my reasoning is that the skill doesn't transfer from one weapon type to another, just because it is capable of Automatic mode of firing.
Machine pistols share some commonalities with SMG's, but from that point forward, Firearms with automatic mode of fire are different in design and dedicated purpose. Therefore the specialization skill is not universally transferable from one type of Firearm capable of automatic mode of firing to another.
The handling, operation and reloading is different, the length of the barrel and range is different, the caliber and recoil are different in most Firearms capable of Automatic fire, so Automatics specialization is too general. Again I point out that Machine Pistols and SMG's do share commonalities and should be treated carefully.
A StreetSam takes specialization in Assault Rifles, gets + 2 dice pool bonus when operating an Assault rifle like Raiden, or AK.
A Decker takes specialization in Automatics, gets + 2 dice pool bonus when operating everything Automatic fire capable. Decker keeps the +2 dice pool bonus when operating an AK or a Raiden and keeps that bonus after switching to Automatic SMG. Streetsam has to use Assault rifle or loose the specialization bonus.
Will the specialization in Burst-fire have the same application among all the weapon types capable of Burst-fire, even tho one is a Pistol and second an Assault rifle ?
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I agree, Automatics specialization should die in a fire. We should just have clear weapon categories and 1 spec per category.
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I agree, Automatics specialization should die in a fire. We should just have clear weapon categories and 1 spec per category.
Hear, hear!
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It is explicitly mentioned as a specialization and it also existed as a skill of its own in the previous edition.
Just rule that pistol also extend to machine pistols and SMGs (that you hold with one hand as a pistol, 'gangsta style ') and rule that longarms also extend to SMGs (that you hold with two hands and brace against your shoulder, 'SWAT style'), carbines and assault rifles.
I think each weapon category (Holdouts, Automatic pistols, Revolvers, Tacers etc) make for a good expertise once you already have a specialization (in this case in Pistols).
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It is explicitly mentioned as a specialization and it also existed as a skill of its own in the previous edition.
Yes, "Automatics" did exist as a Skill in previous editions. It also existed as a Specialization in other previous editions. It was silly both ways and caused no end of headaches, as we all had to spend hour of precious game-time arguing with each other about exactly what it did or did not cover.
If we just went with Pistols & Tasers, Machine Pistols & Submachine Guns, Shotguns & Rifles, Assault Rifles, and Machine Guns as the Specialization categories, it would be a heck of a lot easier to categorize things.
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You are free to house rule it as you like. There is a sticky house rule thread in this very forum. But it is clear that automatics is a valid specialization in SR6.
I would just have it include machine pistols, SMGs and assault rifles. Done.
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Also remember that specializations listed with the skills are not meant to be exclusive or even all inclusive but rather just a guideline
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Indeed, CRB p.92
The listings of specializations with each skill are not exhaustive— if players develop a specialization within a skill that they would like to have, and their gamemaster approves it, they can have it.
This raises another question in me:
If you had an expertise (+3) and specialization (+2) in one skill that 'overlap' would they stack or would you just use the expertise because it gives the higher augmentation?
e.g.:
Expertise: Firearms: Pistols
Spec: Firearms: Silenced Arms
= +5 to Firearms when attacking with an Ares Light Fire because of its integrated silencer?
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Indeed, CRB p.92 The listings of specializations with each skill are not exhaustive— if players develop a specialization within a skill that they would like to have, and their gamemaster approves it, they can have it.
This raises another question in me:
If you had an expertise (+3) and specialization (+2) in one skill that 'overlap' would they stack or would you just use the expertise because it gives the higher augmentation?
e.g.:
Expertise: Firearms: Pistols
Spec: Firearms: Silenced Arms
= +5 to Firearms when attacking with an Ares Light Fire because of its integrated silencer?
No, expertise replaces the specialization and is just the next step up
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Also remember that specializations listed with the skills are not meant to be exclusive or even all inclusive but rather just a guideline
Banshee, I agree with this as it is indeed the rule for specializations.
But maybe you could elaborate on what you think the writer of that section (maybe you?) thought was covered by "Automatics" as a specialization as compared to the other example specializations? I'm just as confused as everyone else, especially in light of the fact that specialization by weapon category listed in the Gear chapter as Michael suggests is such an obvious way to categorize specializations. Maybe the writer thought those categories were too broad? Too narrow? Maybe the writer wanted to purposely show that specializations could overlap with each other? I just want to understand the logic behind the current list.
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Also remember that specializations listed with the skills are not meant to be exclusive or even all inclusive but rather just a guideline
Banshee, I agree with this as it is indeed the rule for specializations.
But maybe you could elaborate on what you think the writer of that section (maybe you?) thought was covered by "Automatics" as a specialization as compared to the other example specializations? I'm just as confused as everyone else, especially in light of the fact that specialization by weapon category listed in the Gear chapter as Michael suggests is such an obvious way to categorize specializations. Maybe the writer thought those categories were too broad? Too narrow? Maybe the writer wanted to purposely show that specializations could overlap with each other? I just want to understand the logic behind the current list.
I did not write that section, and believe it is primarily a carryover from when we were using the 5E skills as a guide to what should be included. I also personally prefer a breakdown that's inline with the gear chapter but would allow automatics as a specialization that covers all light weapons that fire primarily in BF mode ... so machine pistols, SMG, and assault rifles
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Also remember that specializations listed with the skills are not meant to be exclusive or even all inclusive but rather just a guideline
Banshee, I agree with this as it is indeed the rule for specializations.
But maybe you could elaborate on what you think the writer of that section (maybe you?) thought was covered by "Automatics" as a specialization as compared to the other example specializations? I'm just as confused as everyone else, especially in light of the fact that specialization by weapon category listed in the Gear chapter as Michael suggests is such an obvious way to categorize specializations. Maybe the writer thought those categories were too broad? Too narrow? Maybe the writer wanted to purposely show that specializations could overlap with each other? I just want to understand the logic behind the current list.
I did not write that section, and believe it is primarily a carryover from when we were using the 5E skills as a guide to what should be included. I also personally prefer a breakdown that's inline with the gear chapter but would allow automatics as a specialization that covers all light weapons that fire primarily in BF mode ... so machine pistols, SMG, and assault rifles
Thanks, that's helpful.
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Indeed, CRB p.92 The listings of specializations with each skill are not exhaustive— if players develop a specialization within a skill that they would like to have, and their gamemaster approves it, they can have it.
This raises another question in me:
If you had an expertise (+3) and specialization (+2) in one skill that 'overlap' would they stack or would you just use the expertise because it gives the higher augmentation?
e.g.:
Expertise: Firearms: Pistols
Spec: Firearms: Silenced Arms
= +5 to Firearms when attacking with an Ares Light Fire because of its integrated silencer?
No, expertise replaces the specialization and is just the next step up
You can have one expertise and one specialization in one skill at the same time...
CRB p.68: 'You cannot gain an additional specialization in a skill until you have converted the first one into an expertise, [...]'
Silenced arms was an example for a specialization that has to be approved by the GM as stated on p.92.
Do they stack or not? - why?
edit:
Also hopefully found some clarifications in the german CRB on available specializations for firearms. There it's just pistols, rifles and machine guns
All tables from german CRB containing the word pistols are:
light pistols
automatic pistols
heavy pistols
machine pistols
rifles tables would be:
shotguns
hunting rifles
assault rifles
sniper rifles
machine guns table:
machine guns
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Different specializations explicitly didn't stack previously. That restriction isn't explicitly stated here, but I still expect GMs to follow it.
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Indeed, CRB p.92 The listings of specializations with each skill are not exhaustive— if players develop a specialization within a skill that they would like to have, and their gamemaster approves it, they can have it.
This raises another question in me:
If you had an expertise (+3) and specialization (+2) in one skill that 'overlap' would they stack or would you just use the expertise because it gives the higher augmentation?
e.g.:
Expertise: Firearms: Pistols
Spec: Firearms: Silenced Arms
= +5 to Firearms when attacking with an Ares Light Fire because of its integrated silencer?
No, expertise replaces the specialization and is just the next step up
You can have one expertise and one specialization in one skill at the same time...
CRB p.68: 'You cannot gain an additional specialization in a skill until you have converted the first one into an expertise, [...]'
Silenced arms was an example for a specialization that has to be approved by the GM as stated on p.92.
Do they stack or not? - why?
edit:
Also hopefully found some clarifications in the german CRB on available specializations for firearms. There it's just pistols, rifles and machine guns
All tables from german CRB containing the word pistols are:
light pistols
automatic pistols
heavy pistols
machine pistols
rifles tables would be:
shotguns
hunting rifles
assault rifles
sniper rifles
machine guns table:
machine guns
Key word is right in what you quoted from CRB pg 68 ... converted ... when you learn an expertise you are simply upgrading an existing specialization, so does not stack because it is the same thing.
Example... Firearms 5, with Expertise Pistols 8, Specialization Shotguns 7
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@Banshee What jacx7 means is, if your expertise and specialization overlap for a certain situation, do you get a bonus from both? For example, if you have Automatics and Pistols and using a BF-pistol, and the GM considers both apply, does the highest apply or the sum?
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@Banshee What jacx7 means is, if your expertise and specialization overlap for a certain situation, do you get a bonus from both? For example, if you have Automatics and Pistols and using a BF-pistol, and the GM considers both apply, does the highest apply or the sum?
No ... Expertise is a step up improvement of Specialization not in addition too
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True, but the rules don't describe what happens if both your first expertise and your second specialization apply. I would say no stacking, but I do agree it's a shame it's not explicitly stated.
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If you have firearms 5 and then for example get a specialization in pistols you will now have Firearms 5 (Pistols +2).
If you then later decide to get an expertise in Firearms you will end up with Firearms 5 (Pistols +3).
Since you now have an expertise you can get a second specialization. For example Automatics. Fireams 5 (Pistols +3, Automatics +2)
If you are now using a light pistol you will have a firearms of 5 + 3 = 8 dice (pistol expertise)
If you are using a machine pistols you will still have firearms of 5 + 3 = 8 (pistols expertise and automatics specialization does not stack)
If you are using an assault rifle then you have a firearms of 5 + 2 = 7 (automatics specialization)
If you are using a sniper rifle then you have firearms 5 (neither your expertise in pistols nor your specialization in automatics apply)
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Well I know the intent from development is a definite no stacking
From a RAW I think it's clear too, but that may just be me ... you are converting a specialization into an expertise then learning a new specialization. You should not be having any crossover as the new specialization should be whole new category.
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A more interesting question is if the +2 from specialization or the +3 from expertise will count towards the augmented maximum of +4 that in this edition also applies to skills.
SR6 p. 39 Skills
They can be modified by spells, gear, and other effects, but their augmented increase can never be more than +4.
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Under current RAW, specializations/expertises explicitly are dicepool modifiers, not skill modifiers like Reflex Recorders and Improved Ability.
Under the hinted likely errata, the +4 limit will be on dicepool modifiers, while specializations/expertises will explicitly be converted into skill-bonuses and thus not count for the +4 limit. In other words, under the changed system, a Force 6 Spell Focus would only give you a +4, while the Expertise Spellcasting would still stack at +3 for a total +7. But until the final errata come out, we don't know for sure yet if this will all be in there.
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Under current RAW, specializations/expertises explicitly are dicepool modifiers, not skill modifiers like Reflex Recorders and Improved Ability.
Under the hinted likely errata, the +4 limit will be on dicepool modifiers, while specializations/expertises will explicitly be converted into skill-bonuses and thus not count for the +4 limit. In other words, under the changed system, a Force 6 Spell Focus would only give you a +4, while the Expertise Spellcasting would still stack at +3 for a total +7. But until the final errata come out, we don't know for sure yet if this will all be in there.
That I can't comment on as I wasn't in on that decision... I would say MC is most likely correct though
Edit: I mean i can't comment on the intent of the skill limit
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Under the hinted likely errata, the +4 limit will be on dicepool modifiers
Wait, what? So the limit will no longer apply to skill augmentation increases...??
Interesting....
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Given how Improved Ability still lists its own +4 limit, and only Reflex Recorder is another skill-increase source, eh? But we have to wait and see.
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Improved Ability have its own limit of "1.5 times the current level (rounded up)".
It also clarify that the standard augmented maximum limit of +4 to skills is in effect (just like Improved Physical Attribute clarify that the standard augmented maximum limit of +4 to attributes is in effect). The augmented maximum limit of +4, at least today, do apply to augmented increases to skill levels (Improved Ability, Reflex Recorder etc).
If the standard augmented maximum of +4 to skills will be removed (instead only apply to positive dice pool modifiers such as wireless enabled smartgun systems and the take aim action etc) then the reference to this second restriction on improved ability will most likely also be removed.....
I am personally not convinced this change will be done in the first place, but you probably have more behind the scenes intel than I do. Time will tell.