Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: taukarrie on <10-21-19/1335:04>
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As I understand it, when you want to attack more than one target on your turn you must spend a minor action in addition to your major action for attacking and then split the attack dice pool evenly among all targets. for me this covers any single gun firing in SS, SA, narrow BF, and melee weapons. For other firing modes and dual gun wielding i have questions..
- wide BF: do you need to spend that minor action for multiple targets or is this just part of the gun's BF feature, similar to how full auto works?
- dual wielding Full Auto: I am pointing a pair of auto pistols at the 6 guys in front of me and im about to fire both of them on full auto to spray down all six guys. How am I splitting the pool? RAW seems to say that, assuming the guns are identical, the results of firing a single full auto pistol are the same as firing a pair. In fact, firing the pair of pistols will get me the same rolls, AR and damage as firing a single pistol with the added cost of 10 more ammo and a minor action. So if i have an attack pool of 12 and im about to use it to attack these 6 guys i can..
fire a single auto pistol on full auto: 2 dice per target, use full base DV of the weapon for any hits, potentially scaled up by net hits. (costs 1 major action and 10 ammo)
or
fire a pair of auto pistols on full auto: 2 dice per target, use full base DV of the weapon for any hits, potentially scaled up by net hits. (costs 1 major action, 1 minor action, and 20 total ammo)
Is this really how it works or am I missing something?
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The short answer is if you're going to try this, just spend the 4 Edge for Anticipation and make life easy for yourself.
P.S. when asking rules questions, citing page numbers is immense help to people inclined to try to help.
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Do you still need to expend the minor action to multi-attack with wide burst BF?
- looks to me like yes. Where the FA option says you don't have to even make the mutiattack action, wide BF just says that you CAN make the multiattack. This is in contrast to, say, a SA burst or narrow BF which don't even allow for the option of splitting the attacks.
Dual wielding: honestly... just don't. But if you must, be sure you take ambidextrous quality so you don't suffer left-hand problems (PG. 110). Using two guns at once is reasonably a way to be able to use multiattack with firing modes other than wide BF.
Dual-wielding FA guns: remember, without ambidextrous, you can't even spend edge. So no Anticipation. And if you use Anticipation with 1 gun, there's no reasonable need for a 2nd gun.
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Do you still need to expend the minor action to multi-attack with wide burst BF?
- looks to me like yes. Where the FA option says you don't have to even make the mutiattack action, wide BF just says that you CAN make the multiattack. This is in contrast to, say, a SA burst or narrow BF which don't even allow for the option of splitting the attacks.
Dual wielding: honestly... just don't. But if you must, be sure you take ambidextrous quality so you don't suffer left-hand problems (PG. 110). Using two guns at once is reasonably a way to be able to use multiattack with firing modes other than wide BF.
cant you just do two consecutive SA shots using a minor action and split the dice pool with the same AR/DV mods? Wide burst is apparently just two SA shots. If youre spending a minor action either way theres no difference.
"SA: You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1.
BF: You’ve got a fancy gun that pumps out multiple rounds with a single trigger pull. You can fire four rounds in an attack. You can shoot a narrow burst, which decreases the Attack Rating by 4 and increases damage by 2, or make a wide burst and split your dice pool between two targets and count each as a SA-mode shot. "
- 6E CRB pg. 109
Dual-wielding FA guns: remember, without ambidextrous, you can't even spend edge. So no Anticipation. And if you use Anticipation with 1 gun, there's no reasonable need for a 2nd gun.
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Well, if you COULD use multiattack with (one) SA gun, what would the reason be for wide BF rules to say you can use multiattack?
Letting you split SA attacks is, as you say, giving wide BF functionality to weapons that lack the BF firing mode.
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Is this really how it works or am I missing something?
not missing anything.
Like you wrote wide burst is 2 SA mode shots. Thats written in CRB p.109.
So thats what Ambidextrous is good for despite using 2 SS one handed weapons. Further it can be used to Multiattack with Throwing Weapons (you didnt mention that, but i think thats clear)
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Well, if you COULD use multiattack with (one) SA gun, what would the reason be for wide BF rules to say you can use multiattack?
Letting you split SA attacks is, as you say, giving wide BF functionality to weapons that lack the BF firing mode.
"Multiple Attacks Whether it’s shooting a bunch of bullets at multiple people, throwing shuriken at a marauding group, or using a sword in each hand, there may be times you want to deliver multiple attacks at once. This can be against multiple targets, or you could attempt two attacks against the same target. Whatever the case, to make multiple attacks, divide your attacking dice pool by the number of attacks made as evenly as possible, then make the rolls. If you are making two different kinds of attack (like, say, a gun in one hand, a knife in the other) divide each of your normal dice pools by two, rounded down. Defenders will defend as normal; if the multiple attacks are made against a single target, they only have to roll once, and their hits will be compared to all of the attacker’s rolls to determine success."
- 6e CRB pg 111
"Multiple Attacks (I) A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it. Split your dice pool evenly among all targets, or if you are using two different forms of attack, use half the dice pool for each, rounded down. This action must be used in conjunction with an Attack Major Action. "
- 6e CRB pg 42
Thats all the rules I can find on multiple attacks. I havent found anything that restricts a gun firing in SA mode. I would think if you can throw "shuriken at a marauding group" you could probably squeeze a trigger a few more times. Are there additional rules on multiple attacks somewhere that I'm missing?
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Are you also arguing that you can, by absence of a restriction prohibiting it, make a multiattack with a SS attack? That you can somehow shoot X targets with ONE bullet?
I hope not.
Now, sure, if you're using TWO SS or SA guns simultaneously, then you can multiattack. But with one gun? Since wide BF sets a precedent that a firing mode needs to say it is multiattack-compatible, SA (and SS, and narrow BF) is implicitly NOT compatible with that rule.
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Thats all the rules I can find on multiple attacks. I havent found anything that restricts a gun firing in SA mode. I would think if you can throw "shuriken at a marauding group" you could probably squeeze a trigger a few more times. Are there additional rules on multiple attacks somewhere that I'm missing?
If you could use Burst Fire (BF) with any single gun that has Semi-Automatic (SA) listed, what reason would there be to have a separation between SA and BF mode ? The differentiation would than be between SA(SA or wide Burst Fire) and narrow Burst Fire, not between SA and BF (narrow or wide) as it is RAW.
Thats just common sense and with lack of examples in the CRB thats all we got for now.
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As I understand it, when you want to attack more than one target on your turn you must spend a minor action in addition to your major action for attacking and then split the attack dice pool evenly among all targets. for me this covers any single gun firing in SS, SA, narrow BF, and melee weapons.
Wait what??
No, with a SS firing weapon you can only tap the trigger once to fire one bullet at one target.
When it comes to SA firing mode I suggested the House Rule:
SA firing mode
You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1, or split your dice pool between two targets and count each as a SS-mode shot. You may also fire just one round with one trigger pull, counting the attack as a SS-mode shot.
Note that the italic part from the above is not RAW.
With a BF weapon you can aim at one target and tap the trigger twice to automatically fire two bursts at one target. This is resolved as one attack that have a damage value of +2 but an attack rating that is reduced by 2. This is called Narrow Burst.
With a BF weapon you can also aim at one target, tap the trigger once to automatically fire one burst at the target and then aim at a second target and tap the trigger a second time to automatically fire one burst at the second target. To do this you need to spend a minor action on multiple attacks and split your dice pool. Each attack have a damage value of +1 but the attack rating is reduced by 2 and it is compared to the highest defense ratings of your targets. This is called Wide Burst.
- wide BF: do you need to spend that minor action for multiple targets or is this just part of the gun's BF feature, similar to how full auto works?
Yes.
The only exception where you don't spend that Minor action when attacking multiple targets is Full Auto.
- dual wielding Full Auto: I am pointing a pair of auto pistols at the 6 guys in front of me and im about to fire both of them on full auto to spray down all six guys.
Are you talking about machine pistols with full auto capability? Semi-automatic pistols (which is what I normally think of when someone says auto pistols) normally does not have full auto capability...
If you have a weapon with full auto firing mode then you just split the dice pool up to ten times and attack up to ten separate times (same target or different targets). In this case you don't have to spend a minor action. Damage value is unchanged but attack rating is reduced by 6 and compared to the highest defense rating of your targets.
Is this really how it works or am I missing something?
With two full auto weapons you can potentially fire three bursts at each of the six targets by splitting the pool 18 times (which is probably not a good reason even if it can be done).
But a good reason to dual wield two SS weapons or two melee weapons or one ranged weapon and a melee weapon is to attack two targets (or the same target twice) by splitting the pool.
And a really good reason to dual wield together with the ambidextrous quality is to have a katana in one hand (for Wrest) and a BF weapon in the other (for Anticipation Wide Burst).
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You can do multiple attacks with SS Mode. The main differences are as follows:
- SS fires one round. Multiple attacks cost a minor action in conjunction with a major one.
- SA can fire two rounds in quick repetition. They are both shooting at the same target and count as a single attack. Multiple attacks cost a minor action in conjunction with a major one.
- BF can fire 4 rounds in quick repetition. They either all go as one attack or can be split up into two attacks (splitting the pools as well), with only a major action (without the need of an extra minor action).
- FA you are essentially completely free to do multiple attacks with one major action and without the need to spend an extra minor action.
Being ambidextrous, in my opinion, only bears minor tactical advantages, should the situation arise to make use of it. Highly situational.
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There won't be many GMs that allow you to do Multiple Attacks with a single SS weapon, since SS weapons do not list rules for Multiple Attacks.
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It says right in the multiple attack action ... assuming ammunition.. etc. allow it.
SS can not do multiple attacks unless you're dual wielding, SA would at most get 2 targets
So BF and FA are the go to options for multiple attacks just because of the amount of bullets they can throw in the air
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You can do multiple attacks with SS Mode.
No, you can not fire one bullet at two different targets. No matter how many minor actions to throw at it (I can't believe you are even trying to argue this to be honest). But yes, you can use two SS weapons to multiple attack two different targets by firing each weapon once, splitting the pool and spending a minor action.
- SA can fire two rounds in quick repetition. They are both shooting at the same target and count as a single attack.
Yes, this part I agree with.
Multiple attacks cost a minor action in conjunction with a major one.
No, book actually currently don't support firing at two targets with SA mode, but a good house rule could be to treat this as two separate SS attacks while you also spend a minor action.
Another good house rule could be to allow you to only fire one single bullet at one single target (SS mode attack even though you are in SA firing mode) by spending a regular major action (but without changing firing mode).
- BF can fire 4 rounds in quick repetition. They either all go as one attack or can be split up into two attacks (splitting the pools as well)
Yes, this part I agree with.
Reason why you can't attack four different targets is because each time you tap the trigger in burst firing mode the weapon will automatically fire a burst of bullet (and also because the rules state that wide burst can only target two different targets).
with only a major action (without the need of an extra minor action).
No. Attacking multiple targets always cost an additional minor action.
Unless it explicitly say that it doesn't (see Full Auto).
- FA you are essentially completely free to do multiple attacks with one major action and without the need to spend an extra minor action.
Yes. This is the only explicit exception to the general rule that you need to spend a minor action when taking multiple attacks. You still need to split the pool though. And attack rating is reduced by 6.
Being ambidextrous, in my opinion, only bears minor tactical advantages, should the situation arise to make use of it. Highly situational.
Being able to shift between Wrest (or intercept) with a melee weapon and Anticipation with a Wide Burst firearm without spending a major action to ready another weapon is more than a minor advantage (you can't gain or spend edge on off hand attacks unless you are ambidextrous).
Depending on your build this might actually be quite valuable and well worth the 4 customization karma it cost.
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- SS fires one round. Multiple attacks cost a minor action in conjunction with a major one.
You can read the RAW opposite of what you did there: you can only shoot once per SingleShot Weapon per Combat Round . That means a char with 2 Major actions needs 2 guns if he wants to fire two Single Shots per Combat Round. A "Gunslinger Adept" with 2 single shots revolvers utilizing "Ambidextrous" is a typical example for dual revolvers. (side note: Odd enough the best Revolver has only SA mode)
The rules are totally grey area there and i would just check such details with the GM before making the char. And then we all hope for a FAQ :)
edit: i dont think thats really the intention of the rules since it makes everything more complicated but it would mean as well
SS -> max 1 Bullet per Combat Round
SA -> max 2 Bullets per Combat Round (and no SA weapon has Single Shot listed ...)
BF -> max 4 Bullets per Combat Round
FA -> max 10 Bullets per Combat Round
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Sorry for not bothering to quote all the naysayers ;) no offense intended.
So, first for some RAW facts:
- I do not find anything, that states for SS to fire a single bullet per combat round. I just says "you fire a single bullet".
- The "Multiple Attacks" minor action states: "A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it." This does by no means state anything about fire mode.
- Quoting the BF Mode: "or make a wide burst and split your dice pool between two targets and count each as a SA-mode shot."
- Quoting the FA Mode: "This mode allows multiple attacks without using the Multiple Attack Minor Action."
My conclusions:
Yes, I can in fact use the multiple attacks action without a minor action, when using FA. Also can I attack multiple targets with one burst (a wide one in that case). It also seems perfectly possible to do multiple attacks with an SS weapon, using the rules for the multiple attacks minor action. Multiple attacks can be performed with an SS gun as long as there are enough bullets loaded, the targets are in range and can be fired upon.
To me it seems, that some of you are still thinking this the SR5 way, where indeed you could not do multiple attacks per phase, shooting a SS gun. However, you could shoot a SS gun once per action phase, of which a reflex boosted shooter would often have more than one, shooting the gun several times a turn. In SR6 now you usually only have one major action, while being able to achieve the equivalent of 2 major actions. In terms of using a major and the "multiple attacks" minor action to shoot the SS gun several times per turn, the thing that changed most is, that doing so, will force you to split your pool - unless you can and will use another major action.
As for the other firing modes... FA and BF do obviously allow for multiple attacks on more than one target and that either partially (BF) or completely (FA) without use of the multiple attacks minor action (especially since this is the whole point of FA in the first place. SA, as a side note, will likely have the inclusion of an SS option listed in some future errata as far as I can say. SA can do multiple SS or SA attacks, using the "multiple attacks" minor action, same as SS does.
If you would like to disagree on the raw side of things, please quote or point directly to the rules that prove your point - as far as I can tell, I did. You may certainly have a different opinion, those do not yet change the rules however.
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Here's the part that makes me say that SA cannot use multi-attack (barring dual-wielding 2 SA guns, of course):
SA: You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger
pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon
by 2 and increase damage by 1.
BF: You’ve got a fancy gun that pumps out multiple
rounds with a single trigger pull. You can fire
four rounds in an attack. You can shoot a narrow
burst, which decreases the Attack Rating by 4 and
increases damage by 2, or make a wide burst and
split your dice pool between two targets and count
each as a SA-mode shot.
The wide burst option for BF fire is bolded. Literally, word for word, the extent of what a wide burst is: the option to use multi-attack and use the rules for SA for those attacks.
So, if you allow SA to make multi-attacks, what you're saying is that every SA gun also has access to the BF wide burst option. And that can't be right.
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If you fire a weapon in SS mode then you only fire one single bullet.
SR6 p. 109 Firing Mode
SS: You fire a single bullet. There are no changes to a weapon’s attributes with a single shot.
One bullet is not enough ammunition to allow you to hit more than one target.
SR6 p. 42 Multiple Attacks (I)
A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it.
How can this still be under debate?
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The rule structure in Shadowrun is that they first present a general blanket rule.
Then they list exceptions to that rule.
The general blanket rule here is that you combine your attack action with a Multiple Attacks minor action if you wish to attack more than one opponent (or attack the same target twice in case you are are wielding two weapons).
Unless there is an explicit rule somewhere stating otherwise.
BF state that it can be used for attacking two targets if you take the Wide Burst option.
There is no mentioning about this can be done without using a Multiple Attacks minor action.
This mean the general blanket rule is in effect and you must use a Multiple Attacks minor action.
FA state that it can be used for attacking multiple targets or the same target multiple times.
However, for FA there IS an explicit rule saying that it can be done without using a Multiple Attacks minor action.
This specific rule override the general blanket rule and thus you do not have to use a Multiple Attacks minor action.
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The rule structure in Shadowrun is that they first present a general blanket rule.
Then they list exceptions to that rule.
The general blanket rule here is that you combine your attack action with a Multiple Attacks minor action if you wish to attack more than one opponent (or attack the same target twice in case you are are wielding two weapons).
Unless there is an explicit rule somewhere stating otherwise.
BF state that it can be used for attacking two targets if you take the Wide Burst option.
There is no mentioning about this can be done without using a Multiple Attacks minor action.
This mean the general blanket rule is in effect and you must use a Multiple Attacks minor action.
FA state that it can be used for attacking multiple targets or the same target multiple times.
However, for FA there IS an explicit rule saying that it can be done without using a Multiple Attacks minor action.
This specific rule override the general blanket rule and thus you do not have to use a Multiple Attacks minor action.
Yes. This is all Rules Lawyering 101, and it's the 100% correct way to Rules Lawyer.
Furthermore, the example of BF's wide burst says that the effect of multi-attacking dilutes the AR debuff and DV buff down to those values of SA. And this makes perfect sense: 2 bullets works like 2 bullets.
Presumably, a hypothetical SA multiattack should count as two SS attacks, yet that's absolutely not stated. Nor should it make any sense that a SA burst, if multi-attacked to allocate 1 bullet each to 2 targets, should still have the AR and DV of 2 bullet bursts.
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(I really wish someone would sit down with Shadowrun’s designers and explain the difference between semi-automatic loading firearms and automatic firing firearms.)
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The difference is that a semi automatic weapon fire one bullet each time you pull the trigger. During one major action you may double tap to fire a total of two bullets at a single target. This will increase damage value by one but reduce attack rating by 2.
While full auto fire bullets while you keep the trigger pulled. During one major action you fire 10 bullets that you may divide among different bursts (without spending an extra minor action). Recoil is pretty hard to control in this firing mode so your attack rating is reduced by 6.
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I’m well aware of how it works; My aside was addressing the way that RPG authors tend to confuse or conflate the two concepts.
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The rule structure in Shadowrun is that they first present a general blanket rule.
Then they list exceptions to that rule.
True story, and I agree.
The general blanket rule here is that you combine your attack action with a Multiple Attacks minor action if you wish to attack more than one opponent (or attack the same target twice in case you are are wielding two weapons).
Unless there is an explicit rule somewhere stating otherwise.
I do not read anything about two weapons being needed for this. Maybe I have missed it, could you kindly point me to that rule?
BF state that it can be used for attacking two targets if you take the Wide Burst option.
There is no mentioning about this can be done without using a Multiple Attacks minor action.
This mean the general blanket rule is in effect and you must use a Multiple Attacks minor action.
I see where you are coming from here, and that makes at least some sense. However, the fire modes do explain what you get for using 1 major action (Attack) with them. You can use the minor action "Multiple Attacks" in conjunction with that to split your pools on multiple attacks as they are described. It is a simple >> Major(do this) + Minor(modify Major) thing. However (again ;) ), the mention of this not taking an extra minor action should be in some upcoming errata. It is in the german version of the book at least.
FA state that it can be used for attacking multiple targets or the same target multiple times.
However, for FA there IS an explicit rule saying that it can be done without using a Multiple Attacks minor action.
This specific rule override the general blanket rule and thus you do not have to use a Multiple Attacks minor action.
Yes this is likely to be mentioned explicitly as it is essentially the exact same extended functionality, that the "Multiple Attacks" minor action provides, while the wide burst is doing something else, as it is limited or better put, exactly telling you that you may do exactly two SA attacks, spread over exactly two different targets. It's what it does.
But all in all it does give me more perspective on how you think it works. You seem to interpret firing modes as telling you IF the weapon may use the "Multiple Attacks" minor action, while in my opinion it is established, that the "Multiple Attacks" minor action can be used with any "Attack" major action. Ammunition does account on a limiter should the gun hold too little ammo to fire again, no more no less. With SS you would for example not hit two targets with one bullet or one target twice with the same bullet, instead you fire that gun again, same as you fire a SA again with another double tap. This is also why the advantage of FA is supposed to be not needing an extra minor, as you just keep holding that trigger down.
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No, the rules are very explicit on how you can perform Multiple Attacks with a single gun. You don't get to attack twice with a Singleshot gun, because its rules do not support that. It's not a matter of 'anything that doesn't explicitly outlaw multiple attacks allows it', either you dualwield or you use an attack that is capable of it. And with firearm modes, they explain how you're capable of it. Just like you can't go 'I'll attack 10 people with 1 BF-attack because it never says that's not possible', and you can't go 'hey I'm going to fire my guns 10 times in 1 turn with Anticipation'. Telling others they 'seem to interpret' something this way doesn't make your case any more valid, and I strongly recommend you do not try to pollute your GM's mind with your reasoning.
As for the German book: First of all, Pegasus is NOT a reliable source for english Shadowrun errata, and I haven't seen an errata team member say 'this will be covered' that suggests your interpretation might be valid. Second, if you're going to use it as source in a rule debate, please actually quote the exact content.
The following errata we actually expect:
- Anticipation: clarifying its intent and curtailing some of its more abusive usecases
- SS mode: SA-weapons are supposed to be able to fire SS-style, like in the QSR
The exact phrasing we don't know at this point, and are eagerly awaiting.
As for the whole debate here:
Rulewise: Multiple Attacks is mentioned twice in the rules. The Minor Action explicitly mentions 'more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it'. It notes to combine with an Attack Major Action. On p111, the section mentions several possible examples, but none of these are 'use the same weapon twice'. It does, however, explicitly cover dualwielding.
Firing modes come with specific options, some of which are Multiple Attacks. Of these, FA mentions it doesn't require the Minor to be used. On the other hand, BF makes no such mention so a wide burst requires the Multiple Attacks Minor.
Nowhere at any point do the rules say 'you can attack twice with the same weapon with Multiple Attacks'. So no, this is not a legal action.
What I find insidious here is the attempt to rulelawyer this scenario when there is no actual need for it: Nothing's stopping you from dualwielding. In fact, one of the dualwielding examples explicitly overrides the claim that you can just use the same weapon twice: It talks about wielding two swords. There would be no use for that if you could swing the same sword twice. So I find it very suspect why you would even try to argue this way, when there is literally nothing in the rules that suggest using the same weapon twice in 1 Attack is even allowed.
And I feel sorry for any GM you're going to try to push this rulelawyering on, because your 'well you interpret this' posts suggest you will stop at nothing to force your attempted loopholes onto GMs. I strongly recommend you stop doing that, because you are violating one of the biggest rules: You're supposed to be playing TOGETHER. This isn't a competition as to who can twist the rules the best way to force their gameplay through.
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Woaw, Michael, sorry if I am mistaken due to the nature of written communication, but you seem a bit on the heated side.
First and foremost neither am I bearing any ill intend here, nor am I trying to fabricate anything against better knowledge, in fact the opposite is true. "This rulelawyering I am trying to push" is my honest understanding of what I have read in SR6 so far. For my part I never assumed, that viewpoints contradicting mine in this, were in anyway malicious, just because I think they are in the wrong. when I am asking to be pointed to the rule that clearly proves one point or another, I actually mean it, because yes, it could be I have overlooked something. Yes, I could be absolutely wrong, so could you be. It seems though we are convinced of our interpretations of what RAW actually is trying to tell us. Those are, I would say, the reasons why we are discussing.
As for my GM and / or my players, do not feel sorry for them, as there is no need to (neither would it be appropriate). In the end the GM decides at the table, and the group discusses away from the table. This particular topic will not even be all to important for us.
My comment on the german version of the rules was not even what I based my point on, it was rather why I expect clarification there. Pegasus, as anyone else really is not above making mistakes, but so far I am being told that the changes in there are official. Not saying anyone is perfect, just trying to be positive and using a little experience from SR5.
Nowhere at any point do the rules say 'you can attack twice with the same weapon with Multiple Attacks'. So no, this is not a legal action.
Look, I do understand how the whole rule thing works. That being said, I also know, that not everything is allowed, just because it is not explicitly covered. Yet, what I read is, that multiple attacks are generally allowed as described by the rules for multiple attacks. In the rules I do not find anything telling me, I can only attack once per weapon each turn (if you find such a rule please, please point me to it). If that would be the case, it would be very interesting to mention. Mainly because it is possible to actually perform two major actions and only secondly because of the minor action. In SR5 the limitations of attack actions were actually mentioned.
Further more you seem to pretend what I am saying is some weird outlandish stuff, while it is not (no matter who is correct in the end). Because attacking multiple times a turn, using the same weapon has been a perfectly normal idea in since SR1 (and freakishly more powerful at times).
Well, anyway, at this point we can either continue this discussion, in which case I would ask you not to, quote: "polute", it. Or we are at a point of ongoing hostility and just leave it at that and wait. The latter would be a shame of sorts, as I was hoping for a more conclusive end to this... but maybe time will tell then anyway.
With that, I send you my regards, have a nice one.
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[...], as I was hoping for a more conclusive end to this... but maybe time will tell then anyway.[...]
all the rules were quoted. What remains is - as i already wrote - a grey area.
Your understanding might well be the way it is intended - and maybe - will get official some day. But I hope that what the majority in this Thread wrote is the RAI.
The following things are to be changed if your reading is RAI:
- The whole section about "Wide burst" (21 words p.109) is useless. You can just fire twice with SA mode for the same effect.
- you get 1 point of "recoil" or reduced Attack Rating for firing twice using SA mode, but you dont get such a Recoil for firing twice using your double Single Shot interpretation. That would be a mistake in the rules.
- "Ambidextrous" quality would be almost useless (as you already wrote it is in your interpretation) it only costs 4 Karma but "Analytical Mind" costs 3 Karma. So Power is not equal Karma cost but Ambidextrous would be better off as "Fluff" then since its usefullness is already questionable in the current RAI as I read the RAI.
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What Arkas is saying is that if your SS weapon have 15 bullets in the magazine then you are allowed to fire all 15 in one action.
This is in direct contradicting to the rule that SS only fire one single bullet. Therefore this reading is not correct. Period.
This is how the rules are written (and also how it was resolved in previous editions):
If you fire a weapon in SS mode then you only fire one single bullet.
SR6 p. 109 Firing Mode
SS: You fire a single bullet. There are no changes to a weapon’s attributes with a single shot.
One bullet is not enough ammunition to allow you to hit more than one target.
SR6 p. 42 Multiple Attacks (I)
A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it.
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Ok, time to chime in with some official weight capacity here ... (i don't often do this but) ..Arkas check the credits page and you will see my name there a few times so take this as official as it gets without coming from Jason Hardy himself
The ammunition limit on multiple attacks is based on how many bullets a weapon can fire in a single action and NOT on how many it holds
The rest of the arguments are at least somewhat interpretive and does not effect overall game balance so play as you group sees fit
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Hey, thank you Banshee.
With that being said, I would claim (and hope we can agree on) that especially the part about ammunition in multiple attacks should be worded differently.
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Arkas, I get your reasoning.
It should be possible (it pretty much is possible in reality) to engage a single target with a single shot, move your sights to a secondary target and engage the secondary target with a single shot.
This translated to the Action phase would in my understanding be also, use Major+Minor and divide your dice pool by two. Perfectly possible in reality, some dudes can do this easy under 3 seconds in range conditions.
There is also a mechanical limit to that. The more targets a shooter wants to engage, the less attention (dice pool) the shooter will have for each shot.
But that gets very muddy when using the same reasoning for other fire modes as well as rising number of targets.
SA (I just call it double tap) means you squeeze the trigger twice. How many additional targets beyond the first can shooter engage in a single combat round ?
The same mechanical limit would apply to SA mode, split dice pool by the number of available targets, yet the shooter takes twice the time to shoot compared to SS. (Two trigger pulls compared to one)
So the amount of targets a shooter can engage in a single round should be reduced by the amount of bullets flying at each target.
With SS there are theoretically 4 targets let's say, ( I am taking distance, cover, vision, ... out of equation) so with SA there should be 2 targets you can engage with multiple attacks. SA takes double the amount of time compared to SS (two trigger pulls)
With Burst, you should be able to engage only a single target, or, as we can see in the rules, engage at maximum 2 targets.
With Full auto, spray and pray as long as it is within 10 targets, each threatened by a single bullet and a miserable chance to hit.
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Rule wise this are the different scenarios that are valid if you are wielding a single firearm:
- SS only fire one single bullet (as a major action) and can therefor only hit one single target (as a major action).
- SA fire two individual bullets (as a major action). Rule wise you can only double tap one single target (as a major action).
- BF seem to automatically fire 2 bullets each time you pull the trigger and it fire 2 bullets plus 2 bullets for a total of 4 bullets (as a major action). Rule wise you can either pull the trigger twice against the same target (Narrow Burst by taking a major action) or aim at one target, pull the trigger once and then aim at a second target to pull the trigger a second time (Wide Burst by taking a minor and a major action).
- FA seem to automatically fire 10 bullets (as a Major action). Rule wise you can attack between one and 10 times (spread out against one or multiple targets and hitting each target once or multiple times). This is the only mode you can use if you wish to hit the same target multiple times (without dual wielding). This is also the only mode you can use if you wish to hit more than two individual targets. Or any combination of the two. As a single major action (without also taking a minor action).
Nothing beyond that is explicitly covered by the rules, but I think it also make sense to [house] rule the following:
- That you with SA mode also have the option to aim at one target, tap the trigger once, then aim at a second target and tap the trigger a second time for two individual SS attacks by taking a minor and a major action.
- That you with SA mode also have the option to just tap the trigger once against a single target, basically taking a SS attack even though you are using a semi automatic weapon, by taking a single major action.
- That you with BF mode also have the option to just tap the trigger once against a single target, basically taking a single SA attack even though you are using a BF weapon as a major action (but you should not be allowed to take a SS attack when you are using a weapon in BF mode since it will automatically fire two bullets each time you pull the trigger)
- That you with FA mode are explicitly not allowed to take the Anticipation Edge Action (because attacking ten times without splitting the pool is BS and also because you need to spend a Multiple Attacks minor action together with your Major Action attack and four Edge in order to trigger Anticipation)
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I agree with you Xenon with one exeption.
CRB p.109
"BF: You’ve got a fancy gun that pumps out multiple rounds with a single trigger pull. You can fire four rounds in an attack. You can shoot a narrow burst, which decreases the Attack Rating by 4 and increases damage by 2, or make a wide burst and split your dice pool between two targets and count each as a SA-mode shot."
How i understand this, is:
You pull trigger once and shoot 4 bullets. You can do this to one target and apply -4AR, +2Dmg.
Or, You pull trigger once and, when targets are close to each other (p.42), you can transfer shooting from one to second. Then you apply -4AR and +1Dmg, like dmg from two bullets.
I know it doesn't comply with the rules "count as a SA", but when pull trigger once and shoot 4 bullets recoil is the same.
This is also why they do not have to apply 1 Minor action for Multiple attack.
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This is also why they do not have to apply 1 Minor action for Multiple attack.
"Full Auto" does not need 1 Minor Action for attacking multiple target. "Wide burst" has nothing like that in its description. Its all on p.109.
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Correct. I agree. But...
1. You pull trrigger once. One action. 4 bullets out.
2. Rules say, You can shoot a narrow burst or make a wide burst. Not two SA or two short BF. Only one burst narrow or wide. You divide Dicepool because you're trying to keep focus on one and shift to second.
This is my opinion, maybe it doesn't follow the rules.
Edited: Maybe, part of the mind must focus on shifting, so Minor action for Multiple Attack is necessary. But in FA its not necessary. What is diferend? One pul 4 bullets or one pull 10 bullets.
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Correct. I agree. But...
1. You pull trrigger once. One action. 4 bullets out.
2. Rules say, You can shoot a narrow burst or make a wide burst. Not two SA or two short BF. Only one burst narrow or wide. You divide Dicepool because you're trying to keep focus on one and shift to second.
This is my opinion, maybe it doesn't follow the rules.
Edited: Maybe, part of the mind must focus on shifting, so Minor action for Multiple Attack is necessary. But in FA its not necessary.
I still feel like that wide burst manuever was meant to be a a way to hit two adjacent targets without spending a minor action. BF or FA, youre still firing inside a 3-second window. If Im surrounded by 10 guys and i can shoot all 10 of them with 10 bullets on FA from a RPK HMG heavy machine gun with a single major action I should be able to shoot two of those guys adjacent to each other with 4 bullets on BF from a Black Scorpion with the same action.
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That's my opinion too. So Minor action is not necessary.
In narrow burst you're trying to keep scattering on one target in wide burst, you are trying to transfer bullets to the second target. But its the same action. One pull trigger.
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That's my opinion too. So Minor action is not necessary.
In narrow burst you're trying to keep scattering on one target in wide burst, you are trying to transfer bullets to the second target. But its the same action. One pull trigger.
overall this topic is more hotly debated than i expected. Im probably going to house it as follows in my games:
SS: 1 round, 1 target, 1 major action
SA: 2 rounds, 1 target or 2 targets (as a pair of SS attacks), 1 major
action, 1 minor action
BF (narrow): 4 rounds, 1 target, 1 major action
BF (wide): 4 rounds, 2 targets (as a pair of SA attacks), 1 major action
FA: 10 rounds, 1-10 target(s), 1 major action
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LOL.
I also made a table and let me add the following.
(pt=pull trigger)(M=Major)(m=Minor)(Dp=Dicepool)
SS= 1pt - 1 bullet - 1 target. (1M) AR like weapon , Dmg like weapon (Bam)
SA= 2pt - 2 bullets - 1 target (1M) AR-2, Dmg+1 (Beng, Beng)
1pt - 1 bullet - 1 target (1M) AR like weapon , Dmg like weapon (Beng)
2pt - 2 bullets - 2 targets (1m,1M) AR -2, Dmg like weapon, Dp/2 (Beng, Beng)
BF= 1pt - 4 bullets - 1 target (narrow) (1M) AR-4, Dmg+2 (Trrrrrr)
1pt - 4 bullets - 2 targets (wide) (1M) AR-4, Dmg+1 Dp/2 (Trrrrrr)
FA= 1pt - to 10 bullets - x targets (1M) AR-6, Dmg like weapon, Dp/x targets (Ratatatatatatatatatata)
Sorry that, you can shift it to House rule section.
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I feel like the thing that is missing in this is the distinction between firing mode and tactic used in firing.
* Firing Mode: this is an aspect of the weapon itself. You pull the trigger, it fires 1/2/4/lots of rounds. The two round and four round modes are mechanically/electronically limited (through a cam shaft or similar mechanism) that fires exactly that number of rounds. It is controlled by a literal switch on the weapon (although this can be activated electronically via Smartlink).
* Tactic: are you concentrating on a single target or are you spreading your fire among multiple targets.
* Number of times you pull the trigger.
Also, I think that logically the decrease in attack rating is tied to the number of bullets spitting out of the end of the weapon (as the recoil makes it increasingly hard to aim), and the increase in damage is related to the probability that the target will be hit by more than one bullet.
Also, three seconds is a fairly long time in terms of gaining control of the weapon and re-aiming between trigger pulls. The splitting of the dice pool is really a sufficient penalty.
Therefore, I think I would house rule this whole business in the following fashion, as essentially a two dimensional matrix of firing mode and tactic. This is pretty big alteration, YMMV obviously:
Firing Modes:
SS: you fire one round per trigger pull, no change to Attack Rating
SA: you fire two rounds per trigger pull, -2 to Attack Rating
BF: you fire four rounds per trigger pull, - 4 to Attack Rating (with exception for Wide Burst)
FA: you fire as long as the trigger is depressed, -6 to Attack Rating.
Tactical Actions:
Careful Fire: 1 major action. only possible in SS/SA/BF. You target one enemy. Get an increase to damage rating = rounds fired/2 rounded up (+0 for SS, +1 for SA, +2 for BF).
Rapid Fire: 1 Major action and 1 minor action. only possible in SS/SA/BF. You fire twice in quick succession. Split your dice pool evenly into two packets. Assign these packets to either two targets that are close to each other, or a single target. Damage rating increases as with Careful Fire (+0 for SS, +1 for SA, +2 for BF).
Wide Burst: 1 Major action. only possible in BF. You target two enemies that are fairly close to each other with a single trigger pull. This does NOT require a minor action. Attack Rating -2 (instead of -4), Damage Rating +1 against each target. You must split your dice pool evenly between the two targets.
Spray: 1 Major action. only possible in FA. You fill an area with a volume of fire, firing at least 5 and no more than 10 rounds. Divide your dice pool evenly in a number of packets equal to the number of rounds fired. Assign a packet to any target in the area, including more than one packet on the same target. No damage rating change. This does NOT require a minor action.
This is just framework that seems like a logical "refactoring" of the current rules, achieving the roughly the same result but in a logical fashion I can understand. Again YMMV. And like Hulka, I probably should be posting this to the House Rule thread instead of here.
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Back to topic.
When used two weapons, you have to spend 1 minor action for Multiple attack and divide a Dicepool for each of weapon.
1: If you have Dicepool 12, 3 targets and one SMG capable FA in each hand.
Spend 1minor, 1 major action. Split Dicepool for each hand with weapon. Without Ambidexterity quality you cannt use Edge.
FA mode, First weapon 2 dice for each target AR -6 but good dmg.
Second weapon 2 dice for each target AR -6 good dmg.
2: one weapon with FA firing mode. Dicepool 12, 3 targets.
Spend only 1 major action, can use edges. 4 dice for each target. AR -6 still good dmg.
What probability is with weapon in each hand and FA mode that you hit?
Correct me when i wrong.
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Back to topic.
When used two weapons, you have to spend 1 minor action for Multiple attack and divide a Dicepool for each of weapon.
1: If you have Dicepool 12, 3 targets and one SMG capable FA in each hand.
Spend 1minor, 1 major action. Split Dicepool for each hand with weapon. Without Ambidexterity quality you cannt use Edge.
FA mode, First weapon 2 dice for each target AR -6 but good dmg.
Second weapon 2 dice for each target AR -6 good dmg.
2: one weapon with FA firing mode. Dicepool 12, 3 targets.
Spend only 1 major action, can use edges. 4 dice for each target. AR -6 still good dmg.
What probability is with weapon in each hand and FA mode that you hit?
Correct me when i wrong.
Since you already can split your dicepool in "FA mode" there is almost no benefit to fire "FA mode"with two weapons simultaneously. Exception: You want to split the shots between more than 10 targets. Lets say 20 Bullets for 20 Targets with 1 Dice each - possible but a bit risky ^^
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Back to topic.
When used two weapons, you have to spend 1 minor action for Multiple attack and divide a Dicepool for each of weapon.
1: If you have Dicepool 12, 3 targets and one SMG capable FA in each hand.
Spend 1minor, 1 major action. Split Dicepool for each hand with weapon. Without Ambidexterity quality you cannt use Edge.
FA mode, First weapon 2 dice for each target AR -6 but good dmg.
Second weapon 2 dice for each target AR -6 good dmg.
2: one weapon with FA firing mode. Dicepool 12, 3 targets.
Spend only 1 major action, can use edges. 4 dice for each target. AR -6 still good dmg.
What probability is with weapon in each hand and FA mode that you hit?
Correct me when i wrong.
Since you already can split your dicepool in "FA mode" there is almost no benefit to fire "FA mode"with two weapons simultaneously. Exception: You want to split the shots between more than 10 targets. Lets say 20 Bullets for 20 Targets with 1 Dice each - possible but a bit risky ^^
One advantage of dual wielding FA weapons, twice the ammo count. Its not about firing both at the same time, its about how long you go until you reload.. useful for a running retreat..
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And a more general advantage of wielding two weapons that maybe does not have access to FA firing mode (firearm + firearm, firearm + melee or melee +melee) is that you may attack the same target twice (by splitting the pool and taking a minor action). Something you normally cannot do with just a single [melee or ranged] weapon (again, unless it have FA firing mode).